Iterative Saves

[Evard]

For a game this weekend my pals and I want to add in a houserule that essentially says that for every iterative attack a PC gains that is how many iterative saves you get an additional save each time you must make a save against a spell or other effect.

BAB 6/1 Fighter gets hit with a charm person? He gains 2 saves to resist the effect.

Think this would get out of hand in any way? Or perhaps this won't matter?

[Jodah]

I don't know that it would get out of hand, but it will make them stronger. There are feats and items (character and monetary investment) that grant extra saves in certain circumstances or a limited number of times per day.

[Hawk7915]

The more I think about it, the more I think this is a relatively brilliant change. It does several things which are pretty much all upside:


- Makes Full-BAB classes more attractive, since the odds are in their favor to dodge traps, fireballs, charms, and diseases

- Makes Low-BAB classes comparatively more vulnerable to poison and spells than other classes.

- Makes spells that allow saves less dangerous for the aforementioned classes, which is a stealth nerf to some spellcasting.

- Makes feats or class features that raise saves doubly valuable and at least worth considering, since you get to roll twice or more often.

There are a few things I'd wonder about or suggest you consider, though...


- Do Monsters also get these iterative saves? Just monsters with class levels? Or is this "PC only"?

- If monsters do get these iterative saves, it raises the need to optimize for casters, who will need to increasingly emphasize no-save powers.

- Depending on the level, it makes traps, poisons, and diseases even less threatening to the heroes, which may have an impact on the kind of story you are trying to tell.

- I'd suggest you tell people to roll Xd20 and take the highest, to speed up time, when making saving throws and having an iterative.

[Zombimode]

It's just a further imbalance (certain strategies becoming even more difficult to pull of, ie. Stunning Fist). Casters will use more and more no-save spells. With a rule like that you give casters and incentive to powergame, while the few save effects non-casters get become more difficult to use successfully.

[Hawk7915]

It's just a further imbalance (certain strategies becoming even more difficult to pull of, ie. Stunning Fist). Casters will use more and more no-save spells. With a rule like that you give casters and incentive to powergame, while the few save effects non-casters get become more difficult to use successfully.

Oooh, I hadn't thought of this though. The poor Monk is NEVER going to get to Stun or Death-strike anyone know :smallfrown:. I think the good outweighs the bad, but it is something else to consider.

[Evard]

This is a PC only feature, the monsters are crazy enough as is.

Hell a rule that we like to use for monsters is that they can't crit on any attack after the first iterative... Mainly because whoever is playing DM that night tends to crit like crazy (but not as often as when they are a PC :smallfurious: ). Ooh and yeah we were showing the crits when we DM :smallbiggrin: it was improbable and impossible.

But back to it..

Wizards/Sorcerers already love the No Save Just Die (NSJD) spells so really that won't change on player versus player... But this Iterative Saves is for PCs versus the world type games (we never fight in game).

Edit: Yeah Xd20 is the way to go, thanks!

[Evard]

Double Post but needed this asked...


Should we allow haste and other spell effects give PCs extra saves as if having an iterative attacks?

TWF isn't going to give the extra save btw.

[Hawk7915]

Double Post but needed this asked...


Should we allow haste and other spell effects give PCs extra saves as if having an iterative attacks?

TWF isn't going to give the extra save btw.

I'd lean towards no. This is already a direct power boost, but it is keyed to BAB. If multiple natural attacks or TWF don't grant it, neither should Haste. Besides, Haste is among the strongest 3rd level spells in D&D...it doesn't need the power boost either :smalltongue:.

[Kish]

Are "iterative saves" reduced like the iterative attacks they go with?

e.g., does a level 16+ fighter just outright get four saves against everything, or does she get one save at full save number, one at -5, one at -10, and one at -15?

[NichG]

Mostly this strikes me as kind of weird. I don't see the connection between high BAB and being really resilient to, e.g., things that mess with your mind. Its also a lot more rolling.

What I'd probably do if I wanted to implement something like this would be to use the base save modifier to determine your saving throw sequence. That is to say, if you have a base Will save of +7 then you get two rolls (the second at -5).

Honestly though I'd be more likely to do it the other way around, with your saving throws eroding the more times you have to make the same type of save in a round. So your first save would be at full, your second at -2, your third at -4, etc. This makes it possible to enact team-based save or dies against monsters (normally the problem with the party using save negates stuff is that if you have a big boss, either the encounter ends in one round or the spell is wasted - now, even if they make the save the effect wears them down for the next party member's action).

[Kane0]

How about instead of additional saves you grant additional d20s that you roll and then take the best result for?

So a level 13 fighter rolls 3d20 and takes best result to add his modifier to, and a level 13 wizard gets 2d20 to roll and take best result for.
Alternatively, every iterative gets you an extra 1d4 or 1d6 to add as a bonus to a save.
Or just a flat bonus to saves for each iterative if you don't want extra rolling.

[Kish]

How about instead of additional saves you grant additional d20s that you roll and then take the best result for?
How would that be any different from additional saves?

[undead hero]

I'm one of the members of Evard's D&D group btw


Are "iterative saves" reduced like the iterative attacks they go with?

e.g., does a level 16+ fighter just outright get four saves against everything, or does she get one save at full save number, one at -5, one at -10, and one at -15?

We were thinking no. That would just make the saves as worthless as a 20th level fighter having 5 BAB at then end of the full attack. Sure it helps if you roll a 20 but.... Yeah not really worth it.



Mostly this strikes me as kind of weird. I don't see the connection between high BAB and being really resilient to, e.g., things that mess with your mind. Its also a lot more rolling.

What I'd probably do if I wanted to implement something like this would be to use the base save modifier to determine your saving throw sequence. That is to say, if you have a base Will save of +7 then you get two rolls (the second at -5).

Honestly though I'd be more likely to do it the other way around, with your saving throws eroding the more times you have to make the same type of save in a round. So your first save would be at full, your second at -2, your third at -4, etc. This makes it possible to enact team-based save or dies against monsters (normally the problem with the party using save negates stuff is that if you have a big boss, either the encounter ends in one round or the spell is wasted - now, even if they make the save the effect wears them down for the next party member's action).

BAB isn't just the ability to hit things. BAB is how sharp a person is in battle, not just swinging the weapon but total battle awareness.

The wizard has spent their entire lives behind books and they don't really have the battle awareness and training (mental and physical) to resist an enemies abilities. An apprentice Mage learn to cast spells and have a high will due to studying and training their mind but a student at Fighter college is bombarded 24/7 by physical attacks, traps, and spells (local wizard guild throws the mundanes a bone).

The fluff will come later, we are more worried about mechanics but it seems like there really isn't any big down side. Monsters do not get this ability so wizards really have no more of a reason to optimize unless they are out to actually kill a party member.


How about instead of additional saves you grant additional d20s that you roll and then take the best result for?

So a level 13 fighter rolls 3d20 and takes best result to add his modifier to, and a level 13 wizard gets 2d20 to roll and take best result for.
Alternatively, every iterative gets you an extra 1d4 or 1d6 to add as a bonus to a save.
Or just a flat bonus to saves for each iterative if you don't want extra rolling.

Well no, a third level fighter would only get 1d20. Only when he gains an additional attack through BAB would he gain another save to reflect his total "battle" ability and awareness.

Essentially

1/1 BAB Classes (Fighter)
Level 1-5: 1d20
Level 6-10: 2d20
Level 11-15: 3d20
Level 16-20: 4d20

3/4 BAB Classes (Rogue)
Level 1-7: 1d20
Level 8-14: 2d20
Level 15-20: 3d30

1/2 BAB Classes (Wizard)
Level 1-11: 1d20
Level 12-20: 2d20


At least this is what we have planned.

[Kane0]

Well no, a third level fighter would only get 1d20. Only when he gains an additional attack through BAB would he gain another save to reflect his total "battle" ability and awareness.

Essentially

1/1 BAB Classes (Fighter)
Level 1-5: 1d20
Level 6-10: 2d20
Level 11-15: 3d20
Level 16-20: 4d20

3/4 BAB Classes (Rogue)
Level 1-7: 1d20
Level 8-14: 2d20
Level 15-20: 3d30

1/2 BAB Classes (Wizard)
Level 1-11: 1d20
Level 12-20: 2d20


At least this is what we have planned.

My idea was that those d20s are all for the one saving throw, not granting additional saving throws. You roll all the d20s your iteratives allow and take the best result. There is still the increased chances of success without the extra number work.

[undead hero]

My idea was that those d20s are all for the one saving throw, not granting additional saving throws. You roll all the d20s your iteratives allow and take the best result. There is still the increased chances of success without the extra number work.

Well yes but the additional saves are granted by your BAB so that if you multiclass you can still determine how many d20s you get for your saves.

So if you have a BAB of 10 then you get 2d20 for your saves, the additional d20 is your "iterative save" .

Mage/Monster casts fireball on the Paladin and must make a reflex save for half, the Paladin has a BAB of 10 and thus on the reflex saves he rolls 2d20 and takes the better result.

The list in the previous post was just an example of single class and what levels due to BAB they would gain the iterative saves.

If you are a Rogue 2 Fighter 10 @ BAB 11 then you would have 3d20 due to your BAB (+11/+6/+1)

EDIT:

When I say another save it really just means an additional d20. The additional d20 is his iterative save and the mechanics of it all would be the same.

Pick one

A: d20 + 5 + 2

B: d20 + 5 + 2

is the same as

(d20 or d20) + 5 + 2 (where you choose the d20 to take)

My wording may be off (I'm a public speaker type not a typist).

[Kish]

Well no, a third level fighter[...]
He said 13. Not 3.

What the two of you are attempting to describe to each other is mechanically identical. You're just confusing each other by phrasing it a little differently.

[Evard]

He said 13. Not 3.

What the two of you are attempting to describe to each other is mechanically identical. You're just confusing each other by phrasing it a little differently.

Undead hero has never been able to articulate well by typing (neither can I for that matter) but I'm sure he gets it now haha

Anyways I ran a small encounter last night and the iterative save idea worked out pretty well. The Fighter still is weak against will save spells but now has a fighting chance.

Though I would say that an easy way to fix this without multiple d20s would be.

Each class can pick their good saves.

T1 - T2 : 1 Good Save

T3 : 2 Good Saves

T4 - T6: 3 Good Saves

And then call it a day, though with multiple D20s you get a better chance of crit passing...

Which would be more advantageous for a PC? High Save Progression or Multiple d20s