Mage hunters

[Kaeso]

I'm DMing a campaign where magic users are mor or less the nobility their city states, with the most powerful ones being their kings or emperors. They are city states because in my campaign, I'm playing the Tippyverse completely straight.

Anyway, what I'd like to introduce into the campaign is a group of non-magic users (or very limited magic users) that are upset with the status quo and act like a sort of resistance group against their magical oppressor, think of something like the French Resistance in WWII. They're non-magic users that pretty much give the established government a hard time by assassinating key military figures (all magic users, of course) and generally messing things up.

I was wonder what this (overwhelmingly mundane) resistance group should look like and how they should work. My idea would be that they'd mostly try to blend in with the crowd, having secret meetings once in a while. I had the plan to make them all rogue/swordsage multiclasses that use UMD to their benefit to compensate for their lack of magic. Their mode of action would involve waiting until their target is relatively isolated, using a wand or scroll that activates an anti-magic field and sneak attacking their target either in melee or with thrown weapons, but I'm not sure how viable it is in a tippyverse setting.

Is my idea any good? Does it have flaws? Do you guys have better plans? Keep in mind that not every mage in this setting is a paranoid lvl 20 supercaster (those are merely the kings and emperors). Their targets are mostly officers, members of the nobility etc (think of people in the 7 - 15 level range).

[NeoPhoenix0]

the occult hunter prestige class from complete warrior has a few nice tricks but it probably isn't very optimized compared to swordsage.

[Fable Wright]

They need access to magical effects for this to work. The best classes for counter-casting are Swiftblade and maybe Duskblade, due to quick casting and a few Ranged spells to fry the casters in the surprise round. They have relatively low level spells and are largely martial, so they might work with your concept.

The best way to take out the casters would be for each member of the group to have a Ring of Silent Spellcasting (MiC) (the most bang for your buck antimagic effect a melee character, period) and the buffs Anticipate Teleport and Arcane Sight up. A Duskblade with this setup can, for example, see the spells that the other Wizards have up. If one has, for example, no Resist Energy (Fire), a level 7 Duskblade can fire off a Quickened Scorching Ray and a regular Scorching Ray, possibly with Sudden Metamagic feats added or shared Metamagic Rods added, to deal 16d6+ damage in the surprise round to the unsuspecting Wizard. (About 56 average damage un-metamagic'd, enough to kill many low-level mages.) If there are buffs about the Wizard, the Duskblade can activate the Ring, and then sneak up on the Wizard, potentially with Invisibility or Swift Invisibility, Blade of Blood and a Shocking Grasp's charge held in the sword, hitting the Wizard fast and hard with 10d6+str+A lot of PA and other boosts probably including Int damaging poison, and while within 10' of the Duskblade, the Wizard can't cast. In order to leave the area, the Wizard has to take a move action and provoke an AoO, which may well finish off the Wizard, or Withdraw and be unable to cast, while the Duskblade can Charge back in and boost the attack with another Blade of Blood, probably finishing the Wizard off.

EDIT: Also, the Anticipate Teleport is to make sure that any mage that tries to Abrupt Jaunt away finds a Duskblade with a Readied Arcane Channeled Shocking Grasp at their destination.

[Shining Wrath]

First, how are they blocking Divination spells? Otherwise they'll suffer death by scrying.

OK, having crossed that hurdle, you need to shut down the mage's ability to escape, and the most direct and effective way of doing that is to shut down casting, period. Some sort of anti-magic field or spell. OTOH, you could have something that wouldn't register as a poison that could be added to food or drink and would take away casting ability briefly.

In either case, the attack has to be made unexpectedly and at a moment chosen by the mage hunters.

So, you need rogues with the ability to suppress casting briefly. Once ANY other class gets close to a mage who can't cast, the mage dies quickly.

[KillingAScarab]

I do not know what a "Tippyverse" is, but it seems to me that the resistance group you are describing is not averse to magic, you think they might simply favor blocking magic in order to accomplish their assassinations. Anti-magic field being a sixth level spell (or higher), I'm wondering what sort of power level you expect the group to have. I am also curious if this doesn't mean that there's another magic user who would be supplying the group with the magic they require because it suits their own purposes (eliminating rivals so they can take control later, perhaps).

If you were thinking of something lower in level working under their own power, you might look at the mage slayer line of feats from Complete Arcane. I believe each of them lowers caster level by 4 for the person who benefits from them, but if they aren't casters that doesn't matter. They can be taken as fighter bonus feats. Too bad the occult slayer prestige class is terrible, or I would have something to recommend to actually protect against spells (I seem to remember the 3rd edition forsaker prestige class being better in every way). Magic of Incarnum has the spellward shirt soulmeld which could grant a small amount of spell resistance even to a 1st level incarnate, but I know MoI wasn't widely adopted.

I seem to recall some... interesting spells being in The Complete Book of Eldritch Might. The spells chapter is Open Game Content.

Spelltrap
Abjuration
Level: Sor/Wiz 4
Component: V, S, AF
Casting Time: Full round
Range: Touch
Target: One gem
Duration: Until triggered (and then one minute/level)
Saving Throw: None (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes (object)

Spelltrap imbues a gem with the power to absorb a spell, then release its energy. The gem becomes invisible and incorporeal and is tied to a specific creature, object or 10-foot-cube of space, designated by you. If associated with a creature or object, the gem moves when the creature or object moves, remaining always within 1 foot.

The gem stays dormant until someone casts a particular spell (any level), which you specified earlier, on th creature, object, or area. At this time the gem activates, absorbing the spell and becoming visible and tangible. An active gem no longer moves, even if it had been tied to a moving creature or object. The triggered gem floats right were it is, defying gravity. If anything or anyone touches the gem after it has become active, it explodes, inflicting 2d6 points of damage for each level of the spell it absorbed to all within a 20-foot spread (Reflex save for half damage).

Arcane focus: A gem worth at least 100 gp


Might be fairly cheap to study a caster, figure out what spells they are likely to cast upon their person and then spend a bit of gold upon creating gems which will absorb all of those spells.

Other than that, there were a lot of fun things to do with scrying to be found there, like injuring anyone who scries upon you.

[Fable Wright]

First, how are they blocking Divination spells? Otherwise they'll suffer death by scrying.

They don't need to, that's the beauty of it. They're normal civilians most of the time, in normal civilian garb, that obscure their identity using mundane means (face-concealing masks) that magic doesn't see through. They only need to ward themselves a small amount of the time when they're going to or from a meeting, and have the meeting room warded and changed to irregular location at irregular intervals and they're difficult to scry on. It would require a Divination to find out about them and their locations, and then they can pack up and move to a different location. If they're randomly assigned to different cells at different locations at the end of each meeting and conceal their identities from each other (outside of identifying code names) and sceen all potential applicants, it's damn near impossible to trace them, infiltrate them, uncover cells, or do significant damage to the organization while undercover. If one cell is taken down, all of the other cells know that after one meeting; if a mole survives, after taking one down, they'd be rooted out almost immediately. The incredibly decentralized structure would mean that each hit would mean that no Wizard, no matter how prepared, would be unable to root them out entirely, and even a single agent left over could recreate the structure from scratch, making it hard to put down the organization even if all of the randomized locations were discovered by agents and all of them destroyed in a single night.

What I'm trying to say is, even with a hundred Clerics Divining the future to trace them, le Resistance will be almost impossible to track again after the next meeting is over, splintering and meeting in new, random locations with different conglomerations of members. If they were taken out through scry & die, if even one person or cell didn't show up on scry sensors, the organization wouldn't die out.

Probably way too complex to realistically implement, but it would make them nonmagically scry-resistant (outside of meeting places) and hard to kill, meaning that the government, after a point, would stop investing so much effort in doing so.

[Shining Wrath]

They don't need to, that's the beauty of it. They're normal civilians most of the time, in normal civilian garb, that obscure their identity using mundane means (face-concealing masks) that magic doesn't see through. They only need to ward themselves a small amount of the time when they're going to or from a meeting, and have the meeting room warded and changed to irregular location at irregular intervals and they're difficult to scry on. It would require a Divination to find out about them and their locations, and then they can pack up and move to a different location. If they're randomly assigned to different cells at different locations at the end of each meeting and conceal their identities from each other (outside of identifying code names) and sceen all potential applicants, it's damn near impossible to trace them, infiltrate them, uncover cells, or do significant damage to the organization while undercover. If one cell is taken down, all of the other cells know that after one meeting; if a mole survives, after taking one down, they'd be rooted out almost immediately. The incredibly decentralized structure would mean that each hit would mean that no Wizard, no matter how prepared, would be unable to root them out entirely, and even a single agent left over could recreate the structure from scratch, making it hard to put down the organization even if all of the randomized locations were discovered by agents and all of them destroyed in a single night.

What I'm trying to say is, even with a hundred Clerics Divining the future to trace them, le Resistance will be almost impossible to track again after the next meeting is over, splintering and meeting in new, random locations with different conglomerations of members. If they were taken out through scry & die, if even one person or cell didn't show up on scry sensors, the organization wouldn't die out.

Probably way too complex to realistically implement, but it would make them nonmagically scry-resistant (outside of meeting places) and hard to kill, meaning that the government, after a point, would stop investing so much effort in doing so.

Divination question: "When will the mage hunters come for me?"
Given that the answer may be vague, have invisible body guards at any time that *might* match. Lots of them. Very, very serious invisible body guards.

[Kazyan]

Components to make a mage-hunter annoying, the latter suggestions being more feasible:

Ghost, for immunities and coming back even if you kill them.

(Ex)-Vecna Blooded, for 404'ing every divination.

Trickery Devotion to send your clone in to do the deed.

Sleight of Hand modifier of +39, to strip the mage of rings and Ioun Stones when you get in close; bonus points if you can grab their contingency focus.

Improved Sunder, to smash their spell component pouch and possibly gear. They'll at least waste an action to summon components.

Ring of Spell-Battle, to tell them exactly where to shove their Dimension Door.

A source of Silence and maybe grappling, for a chance to shut off spells with certain components.

[Juntao112]

Are the rules running society in a manner beneficial to the subjects, or are they abusing their power? If the former, then you are a group of terrorists. If the latter, you are a group of freedom fighters.

The population at large prefers to support freedom fighters over terrorists. This is important to keep in mind, as this sort of operation cannot achieve success without substantial support from the population.

[Jigokuro]

Doesn't the Tippyverse include incredibly powerful Shadesteel Golems guarding basically everything? Any mage in a position of power would literally never be alone, and at least one of those around him would not care at all about AMF/silence. Even in regular D&D, wizards don't get to be high level without being paranoidly prepared for everything.
So, while you can kill a wizard if you catch him off guard, no Tippyverse wizard will ever be off guard.

Also, even if your organization can't well be scryed upon, the spells that answer general questions would reveal that a threat to mages exists as soon as it does. Security against anti-mage tactics would be brought to bare before your first move was ever made.

[Talionis]

In the Tippyverse, Magic is everywhere (link: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222007). It is like computers today. Everyone has some level of magical access.

The idea is sound, but at least some of Le Resistance will need to be casters to fuel them with the devices they will need. Think maybe an Artificer branch who work like Q in 007.

They do need to do protect themselves from Divination with more than well planned out meeting mechanics. UMD can work for this. Spymasters have non-magical ways around Divination, maybe some of them can organize the cells in order to keep them from being infiltrated.

For lower level stuff. You don't need Antimagic Field. A silence spell can work wonders to simply stop casters from performing spells with Verbal components.

For higher level assassinations, you need complex sets of UMD. Action economy maybe more important so multiple assassins working together maybe required to kill targets.

Also there are some weird casters/non-casters. There is that Barbarian Prestige class that lets you cast Anti-Magic Field as a non-caster. Suel Arcanimach (sp?) I believe is sorta an anti-caster Gish.

It sounds like Le Resistance will need more manpower to do the same thing one person can do. Magic is a force multiplier just as technology is. So just make up for it with a lot of specialized parts. Leaders of cells are Spymasters. The non-magical assassins travel in squads with different prestige classes coming together to nullify the different abilities of the casters they are trying to take down. Sorta like you would put a party together to take out a powerful wizard.

[Person_Man]

I think the key issue would be having a very large population of ideologically committed opponents operating in independently of each other. Magic users can easily locate a handful of enemies, and then use various magics to interrogate them and hunt down their associates. However, divination is basically useless if thousands of individuals who are not coordinating with each other, but using common tactics to achieve a shared goal. If that context, magically "disappearing" a small number of freedom fighters or even wiping out entire towns or cities just increases the overall resistance movement.

I can't (and shouldn't) use real world examples to illustrate the point on this forum. But to give a fictional example, in one of the Expanded Universe of Star Wars, Darth Vader's force ghost explains that it was easy for the Empire to find people who supported the Rebellion, but mercilessly stamping out resistance just created more converts to their cause, with the destruction of Alderaan being the final straw that sparked outright armed rebellion.

In this context, the PCs can be a small group of magic-user opponents (Equalists?) who decide to take matters into their own hands. Unless they're physically caught in the act of terrorism/freedom fighting, the powers that be just don't have the time/resources to hunt them down personally.

[Ace Nex]

Probably want something with Mage slayer and pierce magical concealment feats. Occult Slayer really doesn't hold up all that great, and I am an avid TOB person. Maneuvers offer unique ways to get close via shadow jaunt or other means and then burst them down. Splashing one or two levels grants a few nice tricks and counters to spells like "Mind over body" and the infamous "Iron heart surge" if you've got a few other class levels under your belt. Then there's always the assassin with true strike and sniper's shot prepping a death attack from several hundred feet away... My main question is, who keeps giving this group anti-magic field scrolls? Those don't come cheap and you need to be a decent level before you have access to that kind of magic, and it's not something you want to waste on mere low level assassinations. Does this rebel group allow divine casters? Because that would make the production of magic items, protection vs scrying, and sustainability to the operation much easier.

[Slipperychicken]

What's stopping the resistance from using magic? It's a democratic force in dnd, it doesn't require special training to use and often requires little more than devotion and an above-average Wisdom score. They could even retrain some of their people into magic-users.

They could also get support from mage-lords who don't support the status quo. That is, the weaker mages, declining mages, and those who just support the same ideals.

[Kaeso]

Thanks for all the responses guys.

I've seen that some of you were wondering how much magic our mage hunters are capable of using, to which I say that it would probably be at a bare minimum. After all, in my campaign world magic users are at a pretty high rank in society, making them de facto nobility. Mages that actively support the mage hunters should be a microscopic minority. Somebody suggested making them a kind of Q branch that crafts magic items. This sounds like a pretty cool idea, and would employ said tiny minority where they are most useful (because of their low numbers, losing even one of the "Q branch" could make future efforts far more difficult).

As for the old scrying problem, I don't think that will be a huge problem. Since the group will probably use masks or some other kind of disguise, scrying and locate person won't work (scrying doesn't work if you don't know who you're scrying, right?). As for Augury and other divination spells that invoke gods, those are more or less out of the question too. The city-state in which the campaign takes place is ruled by a God-Emperor, the only being that's (legally) worshipped in said city. Outside gods (if they exist at all!) have no reason to aid those worshipping the God-Emperor, so I have that base covered.

But you're right that, especially in my semi-tippyverse campaign, magic is the name of the game, so Use Magic Device will be of critical importance. Oh, and don't worry about every mage having a group of golems guarding them. Perhaps my campaign isn't as tippyverse as my OP made it seem: in my campaign an enemy faction has only barely started fielding warforged, and the faction ruled by the God-Emperor has only just started attempts to reverse-engineer them.

Thanks a lot for the suggestions though, they're very useful. Please, keep them coming if you still feel like contributing.

[Karoht]

Ring of Spell Battle.
Mage wants to cast a spell? Great, change the target of the spell to himself or one of his allies. If the save or die is going to kill someone, might as well be them instead of you.

Silence can be cast on objects and then thrown into range. Or shot via arrows or guns. Very useful. Lots of magic items also require a command word. Silence is a very powerful tool if used right.

Grappling is an excellent way to shut down casters, great way to get killed too. Watch out.

Once combat starts, breaking line of sight can be a lifesaver. My prefered method is Obscuring Snow/Sleetstorm + Snowsight. Use Conjuration based battlefield controls so they can't be dispelled. Fogcutting Lenses + Fog spells in addition to Snowsight and Snow spells tends to be pretty darned hard to see through. Smokesticks can be remarkably useful in this regard.

Intimidate checks are opposed skill checks VS sense motive. Worth a try in some instances.

[Phippster]

For assassinating casters, I like the idea someone mentioned of an Assassin with True Strike and Sniper Shot at range, but by RAW Death Attack is a melee attack. That's a silly way to do it, and fully support house-ruling it, but if OP wants to stick to RAW, that wouldn't work.

If you could find an artificer, who TECHNICALLY does not do magic, to make you a bunch of spell-storing arrows with Anti-Magic Field stored in them, you could pull that off even better. Cragtop Archer could fit in there somewhere to give you a range beyond the Wizard's spells.

[Engorde]

Maybe the resistance can have psionic manifesters?

[Carth]

The Zhentarim spy prestige class can pull off the same divination pulling trick as a spymaster, but in only 5 levels.

[DMVerdandi]

I'm DMing a campaign where magic users are mor or less the nobility their city states, with the most powerful ones being their kings or emperors. They are city states because in my campaign, I'm playing the Tippyverse completely straight.

Anyway, what I'd like to introduce into the campaign is a group of non-magic users (or very limited magic users) that are upset with the status quo and act like a sort of resistance group against their magical oppressor, think of something like the French Resistance in WWII. They're non-magic users that pretty much give the established government a hard time by assassinating key military figures (all magic users, of course) and generally messing things up.

I was wonder what this (overwhelmingly mundane) resistance group should look like and how they should work. My idea would be that they'd mostly try to blend in with the crowd, having secret meetings once in a while. I had the plan to make them all rogue/swordsage multiclasses that use UMD to their benefit to compensate for their lack of magic. Their mode of action would involve waiting until their target is relatively isolated, using a wand or scroll that activates an anti-magic field and sneak attacking their target either in melee or with thrown weapons, but I'm not sure how viable it is in a tippyverse setting.

Is my idea any good? Does it have flaws? Do you guys have better plans? Keep in mind that not every mage in this setting is a paranoid lvl 20 supercaster (those are merely the kings and emperors). Their targets are mostly officers, members of the nobility etc (think of people in the 7 - 15 level range).

I think the idea is actually pretty bad.
3.5 does not support the idea in any way. Perhaps high level partisans would be able to kill low level mages, but that would end VERY quickly, as everyone has noticed, through divination spells, and furthermore, warding spells.
Moreso, the idea is COMPLETELY shut down with the spells Arcane sight and detect magic.

Any non-magical person would have no aura, thus it would be VERY easy to simply kill or imprison all non-magical folk. To the point of no resistance. And because only a fool would NOT be magical in a High Magic setting, it would be these anti-mages that were the culprits.


I have noticed that a lot of people take to the "mage hunter" type of idea, but in stories where there ARE mage hunters, realize the resources they usually have.

1. Some sort of charm or ward against magic.
2.Firearms and post renaissance weaponry. Superior technology.
3. EXTRAORDINARY LUCK (I.E DM FIAT)

It is hardly ever a successful venture, and the kill rate is insane. In most stories, there is hardly more than 5 operating at a time, let alone a resistance group.

Secondly, there are limits placed upon the mages.

1. Generally one power or spell.
2. Small Numbers (Due to rarity of ritual or genetics)
3. Backwards Culture, not accepting of change in technology or progress.



Do you understand your problem? In your setting, it is the complete reverse. The anti-mages are the one's with one ability, small numbers, and the backwards culture. There is no reason NOT to use magic. It is secular and popular. You would have to be backwards and idiotic as hell not to.
Meanwhile, the mages have ALL THE RESOURCES, are the hegemony, and not only have superior magic, but magitechnology.

Because of how DND works, everything that would have given the mages a difficult time is lampshaded.

Now, what are your solutions?

1. Get rid of the "Mundane anti-mage"
2.Give them better resources somehow
3.Give them a logical reason for being

The reality of the situation Realize this, you cannot pull off AMON (Legend of korra) in DND. Not with anyone of significant level. You already said this was a magocracy, so very few are going to actually be low leveled. Magic requires practice and skill, so the idea of the low level society won't mesh.

While Most people may not be PC's, they could very well still be Adepts. Most NPC's WOULD be. Divine magic does not take intense study, but a simple connection to the divine, which all people are capable of. Having such grants an innate understanding of magic. Now in this world, the concept of magic would be what is the divine connection itself. Belief in magic alone GRANTS magic.
So, the common folk who aren't specialized, but still see magic as a resource only a fool would give up on, would rightly be adepts.

So maybe working on a 1.5 level per year basis(Forcibly keeping everyone low level when it takes 2 months to reach 20th is retarded.), most people at middle age would be 15th level.

Keying off that logic, even adepts would be dangerous. Especially en masse.This insurgency group without some sort of powers other than melee smacking isn't going to cut it.

1. Non-Mundane Mage hunters
The only logical solution to this problem. Now, here is something that you were probably not thinking of, but is true. You don't have to have people against ALL magic.


A) You could have Arcane insurgents against divine magic society, saying that the gods have spoiled magic itself and the right to self-determination should be held by all people.
The soldiers could be battle sorcerers, and the military scientists could be wizards.

B) You could have Divine magic insurgents against arcane magic society, saying that all of the mages are corrupt apostates, and that the one true faith (Maybe belief in some god of magic. Boccob or we jas?) grants the purest miracles.
In that case, the Anti-mages are clerics and archivists.

C) Psionic insurgents against spellcasters works as well In this case, Magic is seen as poison for the mind. A pacifier for what could be the potential of sentient beings. Power, not from absorbing and manipulating cosmic energy, or inspiration of divine forces, but purely from the mind and body of the practitioner.
To make them a little more low-powered, you could have primarily wilders and Psychic warriors, with Psions being the best of the best.


Based on what you have said, option A is probably out of the question. The place is probably decked out in arcane magic. However, that leaves open the option for the group to be either completely divine or psionic in nature.
Both have flavor out the yin/yang, and could make for a more fruitful adventure, as they would have defenses against the other respective spellcasters, as well as having a difference in how they cast, and what they cast.

Had magic been rare, then of course, everyone wouldn't be a spellcaster, but since it is everywhere, having anyone decide to not cast spells is like... Someone selectively choosing to be blind. Or more to the point, someone choosing to forgo ALL senses, by force.
No tongue, no eyes, no ears, no nose, and constantly dulling touch through painkillers.

That is what not using magic in a magocracy is like.



2.Better resources
They need something to survive. This keys in with number one.
Having Artificers on call, making equipment for them is probably a good idea, as well as a wealthy benefactor. Or maybe they have some sort of Co-operative corporation where they make goods, to fund their underground organization?

A restaurant chain, that uses "create food and water" for fast food? Maybe a pest control business using "repel vermin" to keep out bugs. Some spell or power that is almost completely divine or psionic, that arcanists don't have normally have access to. With it, capitalize to fund the movement.

Give em top of the line gear, and moreso, don't make it random. Have everyone using the same gear, to give it that militarized generalization.

3.A reason for being
Why? Why do they go against the status quo? I gave options in the first one, so this should not be so hard anymore.



The good thing about Divine Magic and Psionics is the effect they have on both the mind and the body. Divine magic is well known for buffing, and requires a zealous devotion. Very good for an antagonistic organization. There are no terrorists like religious ones.
You can have that strong, fast, and dangerously trained feeling by giving them monk's belts.

For Psionics, The mind DIRECTLY has an effect on the body, without any medium for exchange. This gives them focus like no other on their tasks and missions. Tashalatora as a feat will allow them to dip with the monk, and continue as psionic characters.

Monk dips will have them take on a Boxer Rebellion style feel, while keeping the whole, focused beyond human means kind of thing going on. It will also give them a more physical characteristic, rather than just being alternative casters. Their whole culture is alternative.