Anybody tried prestige classes as base classes?

[TentacleSurpris]

Hihi forums,

Has anybody tried a game where prestige classes are taken as base classes, without prereqs? How did it work out? Which would be the worst offenders on the cheesoscale?

(Something tells me Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil would be the one to watch out for).

[Malroth]

ur priest and tainted scholar say hello

[G.Cube]

Actually, there are many lactose free PrC classes (forget the cheese!) that I believe should be/have a version that is a base class. For example, if I wanted to be a Blackguard, I should'nt have to RP a Paladin that turns evil, I should be able to be an evil Knight straight from level one.

[Saidoro]

Also sublime chord, thrallherd, mystic theurge...

@ArtsyBarbarian *cough* (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny)

[thriceborn]

Actually, there are many lactose free PrC classes (forget the cheese!) that I believe should be/have a version that is a base class. For example, if I wanted to be a Blackguard, I should'nt have to RP a Paladin that turns evil, I should be able to be an evil Knight straight from level one.

You know you could just play a LE knight to go into blackguard... Blackguard has no paladin specific prereqs.

Also, I would like to see some, but not all prestige classes be able to be taken from level 1. The assassin class wouldn't be too bad.

[Karnith]

Nar Demonbinder would be funny. As would most classes that grant their own spellcasting.

[Divide by Zero]

I think most classes with their own spellcasting would be fine as long as you adjusted the progression to match a base class. Ur-priest wouldn't be nearly as strong if you got 9ths at level 17 like everyone else. You'd pretty much have to do that with all the +1 level PrCs as well, assuming you adapt them at all.

[G.Cube]

Also sublime chord, thrallherd, mystic theurge...

@ArtsyBarbarian *cough* (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#paladinVariantsFreedom SlaughterAndTyranny)

Forgot about those, though other examples remain!

[Jack_Simth]

(Something tells me Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil would be the one to watch out for).
Thing is, you don't have any spellcasting for it to advance at level 1. So you get... a couple of X/Day abilities over the course of your seven levels. Not really worthwhile.

ur priest and tainted scholar say hello
Ditto for Tainted Scholar (although you get even less, there) and any other +X existing class (D&D makes a distinction between "0" and "-", so even if a PrC specifically says it advances, say, your Wizard casting, it still doesn't help - "-" + 1 = "-", not 1), but Ur-Priest, Sublime Chord, Apostle of Peace (which is MUCH better without the pesky feat requirements!), Blighter, Divine Crusader, and most other PrC's that have their own spellcasting would do just fine... although many of them would be too strong for a normal game (especially Sublime Chord - you start out with 4th level spells; the day/level Charm Monster is a game-changer at 1st level) - unless:

I think most classes with their own spellcasting would be fine as long as you adjusted the progression to match a base class. Ur-priest wouldn't be nearly as strong if you got 9ths at level 17 like everyone else. You'd pretty much have to do that with all the +1 level PrCs as well, assuming you adapt them at all.
You follow this advice. Of course, then what you're doing is re-writing a PrC as a base class, which is something different entirely. They'll generally be pretty strong.

[Icewraith]

A lot of the rogue/skill-y prestige classes may assume you have feats and abilities you don't actually have. Be cautious.

[nedz]

You can sometimes do this anyway.

Janni, with the Educated feat, straight into Horizon Walker.

Any of the Paragon classes can be taken at level one.

I'm sure there are other examples.

[JaronK]

If you leave off the casting classes, this idea mostly works fine. Frenzied Berserker gets a little wacky, since at low levels you knock yourself out when you freak out after only a few rounds, but most of the non casters actually make okay standard classes.

JaronK

[gooddragon1]

Wizard 1/Archivist 1/Mystic Theurge 18. Give up 1 level of casting power to get a gestalt fo' life. (I know it needs epic to go above 10 but just imagine).

+academic priest feat for int being the only ability of importance.

Almost every spell in existence without Hexer or other stuff.

[Rejusu]

Too much work to make it function properly. I know I'm stating the obvious but they just weren't designed for it. You'd need to extend 5-10 levels of progression into 20. I mean classes with spell casting progression wouldn't be too hard to adjust. But as far as class features are concerned you'd end up with a lot of dead levels. Plus a lot of PrCs assume you already have certain class features. It also turns theurges from kinda meh to kinda broken.

[Gandariel]

Sublime chord1/urpriest1/mystic theurge8

Do i need anything else?

[ArcturusV]

I know a while ago people were posting about the idea of using PrCs as base classes for E6. Generally the answer was something akin to anything that says +1 Spellcasting generally doesn't work. Mostly for various reasons. But on top of it the idea that what type of spellcasting it advances is not even set in stone and could end up with wonky things.

Like say, the Exalted Arcanist. It's meant for Sorcerers, or at least so it seems from it's requirements down to its description. But due to how it's written, it could be anything from giving you (As a base class) Wizard casting to Warmage Casting, and be radically different based on that choice. You'd have Exalted Arcanists with entirely different spell lists, which matters for Spell Completion Items, etc. Pain in the ass.

Not to mention even if you chose the "logical" choice for a class and gave them that class's spellcasting, it usually creates some problems with progression giving you abilities you can't actually use yet. For example, the Storm Mage PrC from Stormwrack. You basically end up with an ability that does nothing for first level, you're a commoner with a crossbow/sling praying to avoid death before leveling up. And as you level you get abilities that are related to spells that you wouldn't get to cast for several levels yet.

[Boci]

Let's look at core shall we:

Arcane archer: Even more useless without a source of spells. Would require minor retooling. Given how weak it is, could probably give it arcane casting at the ranger's rate.

Arcane trickster: Needs an independant source of spells, unless the intention is to allow someone to go wizard 1 / AT 10. If not, could give it duskblade casting.

Archmage: Useless without a source of magic, build for higher level. Likely won't work.

Assassin: A rogue that trades skill points for limited spell casting? Sure, this works as is. (I don't think the limitations of death attack would make it that problomatic at level 1).

Blackguard: May be a bit more powerful than the core paladin, but will fall behind if the latter is given the splat support. No retooling required.

Dragon Disciple: Needs an independant source of spells, say an arcane equivilant to the ranger's.

Duelist: Works as is.

Dwarven Defender: I hesitate to say works as is, but you get what I mean.

Eldritch knight: Needs an independant source of magic. I'd give it wizard/sourceror casting starting from level 2.

The hierophant: Same problem as archmage.

Horizon walker: Should work.

Loremaster: Requires minor retooling. May works as an alternative wizard, as the loss of bonus feats and familiar (don't) may balance out the new class features.

Mystic Theurge: Requires significant retooling.

Red Wizard: Requires minor retooling. May works as an alternative wizard, as the loss of bonus feats and familiar (don't) may balance out the new class features, but likely won't.

Shadow Dancer: Hide in plain sight from level 1 could be problomatic, as could summon shadow at level 3, but its lack of otherwise defensive powers should balance this out.

Thaumaturgist: Build around later game spells, same problem as archmage.

So in core that 3 not really possible, 3 possibly problomatic ones (shadow dancer, loremaster and red wizard), 1 that requires significant retooling (mythic theurge), 4 that require minor retooling (archane archer, arcane trickster, dragon disciple, eldritch knight) and 5 that should work as if (assassin, blackguard, duelist, dwarven defender and horizon walker).

[limejuicepowder]

Too much work to make it function properly. I know I'm stating the obvious but they just weren't designed for it. You'd need to extend 5-10 levels of progression into 20. I mean classes with spell casting progression wouldn't be too hard to adjust. But as far as class features are concerned you'd end up with a lot of dead levels. Plus a lot of PrCs assume you already have certain class features. It also turns theurges from kinda meh to kinda broken.

I know it's tradition, but there's no real reason a base class can't have less then 20 levels. Leaving the classes and ability progressions as-is would work fine in the majority of non-casting cases. IMO, one of the odd design flaws of mundane PrC's is a lot of them gain small static bonuses, and the designer seems to have forgotten that that ability doesn't come online till 12th level. Gaining the ability at a lower level when it actually matters would help many weak PrC's become viable.

[Evard]

This will sound crazy but I had a long time group back in the day that did prestige classes a bit differently.

All you needed to enter a prestige class was BAB or Spell Casting of a certain level (like if it says 4th level spell casting or +1 level of spell casting you needed some form of spell casting., or if you had to cast certain spells).

The skills and feats under requirements were given to you as bonus entry skill points and feats.

Yeah you read that right.

Upon taking the first level of a prestige class you gain all the feats under the requirements.

Skill points were given to you (up to your max allowed) and each level it would raise until you had the number of SP in that skill that is under requirments. These skills are considered class skills for this purpose and for the rest of that character's life.

So Bob the fighter wants to be a deulist, he reaches 6th level and starts training to become a deulist. Upon taking 7th level (first level of his PrC) perform and tumble both become class skills and he gains (free skill points) 3 ranks in perform and 5 ranks in tumble. If Bob had 4 ranks in tumble he would have gained just 1 additional rank.

Bob also gains weapon finesse, dodge, and mobility as bonus feats for training to become a deulist.

Bob can't take any other PrC unless he finishes out all 10 levels of the Deulist PrC.

...

Now of course there needs to be a limit on what classes you can take... But thisopens up a ton of PrCs that currently some classes can't take.

[Person_Man]

I think that most of the prestige classes with their own spell progression and list of level 1-4ish spells would work wonderfully as base classes for an ECL 1-10 game.

[Krazzman]

This will sound crazy but I had a long time group back in the day that did prestige classes a bit differently.

All you needed to enter a prestige class was BAB or Spell Casting of a certain level (like if it says 4th level spell casting or +1 level of spell casting you needed some form of spell casting., or if you had to cast certain spells).

The skills and feats under requirements were given to you as bonus entry skill points and feats.

Yeah you read that right.

Upon taking the first level of a prestige class you gain all the feats under the requirements.

Skill points were given to you (up to your max allowed) and each level it would raise until you had the number of SP in that skill that is under requirments. These skills are considered class skills for this purpose and for the rest of that character's life.

So Bob the fighter wants to be a deulist, he reaches 6th level and starts training to become a deulist. Upon taking 7th level (first level of his PrC) perform and tumble both become class skills and he gains (free skill points) 3 ranks in perform and 5 ranks in tumble. If Bob had 4 ranks in tumble he would have gained just 1 additional rank.

Bob also gains weapon finesse, dodge, and mobility as bonus feats for training to become a deulist.

Bob can't take any other PrC unless he finishes out all 10 levels of the Deulist PrC.

...

Now of course there needs to be a limit on what classes you can take... But thisopens up a ton of PrCs that currently some classes can't take.

Wait... how many 3-level PrC's are there?

[Evard]

Wait... how many 3-level PrC's are there?

Wait what do you mean?

I'm not sure what you are refering to...

[Boci]

Wait what do you mean?

I'm not sure what you are refering to...

I think they are trying to see how abusable the system is by minimixing the limitation that you must complete the PrC.

[ArcturusV]

Well, I mean he's probably thinking of something like:

With one level of ____ to start it off, I could enter a ton of PrCs that normally I wouldn't be able to take all of, because they are only 3 levels long (So having to finish them before I move on isn't that painful) and I can maximize the benefits.

Which would be everything from Sword of Righteousness, skipping it's painfully annoying Requirements and in 3 short levels you get all the good Exalted Feats, plus the "One other exalted feat" to enter it means you can pick up all the good Exalted Feats in just 3 levels.

I'm sure there are other twinkery sort of things you could do with it.

[Evard]

Well, I mean he's probably thinking of something like:

With one level of ____ to start it off, I could enter a ton of PrCs that normally I wouldn't be able to take all of, because they are only 3 levels long (So having to finish them before I move on isn't that painful) and I can maximize the benefits.

Which would be everything from Sword of Righteousness, skipping it's painfully annoying Requirements and in 3 short levels you get all the good Exalted Feats, plus the "One other exalted feat" to enter it means you can pick up all the good Exalted Feats in just 3 levels.

I'm sure there are other twinkery sort of things you could do with it.

Well there is always exceptions and PrC that will get books thrown at your head :p

I wouldn't use a rule like we did unless everyone knew each other and was comfortable with each other's play style.

[Fouredged Sword]

A changling warshaper would be a tough fromtliner for the first segment of play. +4 str and con, natural weapons, and fast healing...

I would be very tempted to go warshaper 1 / Runescared Berserker 1 / warshaper 3 / Runescared Berserker X

[ericgrau]

It would be cool to homebrew base class versions of all the PrCs, but I think as-is you'd run into 99 problems with classes that weren't meant to be taken at level 1.

For example mystic theurge could give dual progression but with 3 dead levels, perhaps at levels 1,3 and 5. At level 1 you could allow 3 cantrips and 3 orisons but no 1st level spells.

[JaronK]

Pretty sure a Mystic Theurge base class is just an Archivist.

I actually like to rebalance weak base classes by adding in abilities from similar PrCs, often spacing the PrC out over 20 levels. Swashbuckler with Duelist abilities effectively gestalted in is an improvement, though still not amazing. CW Samurai with Iaijutsu Master (abilities gained at half normal speed) and OA Samurai gestalted in becomes a passable samurai, though hardly amazing.

JaronK

[Komatik]

Sublime chord1/urpriest1/mystic theurge8

Do i need anything else?

Seems balanced.

[TuggyNE]

Seems balanced.

The lack of blue text here is hurting my eyes! :smalleek:

[Daftendirekt]

Actually, there are many lactose free PrC classes (forget the cheese!) that I believe should be/have a version that is a base class. For example, if I wanted to be a Blackguard, I should'nt have to RP a Paladin that turns evil, I should be able to be an evil Knight straight from level one.


You know you could just play a LE knight to go into blackguard... Blackguard has no paladin specific prereqs.

Also, I would like to see some, but not all prestige classes be able to be taken from level 1. The assassin class wouldn't be too bad.

Or just ignore Blackguard and play a Paladin of Tyranny/Slaughter.

[ericgrau]

Also, I would like to see some, but not all prestige classes be able to be taken from level 1. The assassin class wouldn't be too bad.
Full casting. Every time you surprise foes you get a free action SoD at level 1 that, unlike before, has the same DC as spells. After level 1 the DC scales faster than spells.

Ya, this is hard to do without retweaking. Harder than you'd think at first glance.

[Scow2]

I figure the "+1 Existing Spellcaster" class PrCs would let you just choose a spell list that best fits the PrC's flavor (Usually Wizard, Druid, or Cleric, and sometimes Sorcerer.)

[Boci]

Full casting.

With their spell list an daily allowance, no too much of a problem.


Every time you surprise foes you get a free action SoD at level 1 that, unlike before, has the same DC as spells. After level 1 the DC scales faster than spells.

No, every time you can study a foe for 3 rounds. Difference. Although you are correct about the scaling DC thing, best change that to 10+1/2 level +int modifier.

[danzibr]

I'd suppose something like +1 casting of an arcane class would be translated into choosing an arcane class and advancing like normal. Like if you took Mystic Theurge at level 1 you could choose Wizard and Cleric.

[limejuicepowder]

Full casting. Every time you surprise foes you get a free action SoD at level 1 that, unlike before, has the same DC as spells. After level 1 the DC scales faster than spells.

Ya, this is hard to do without retweaking. Harder than you'd think at first glance.

The 3 rounds of study is going to limit the use of death attack to when the target is completely unaware of the assassin, and not already in combat - though I will admit the better DC makes it now deserve the name "death attack," rather then "waste of time."

Basically, the ability will now do what it is supposed to do.

[ericgrau]

The 3 rounds of study is going to limit the use of death attack to when the target is completely unaware of the assassin, and not already in combat

No, every time you can study a foe for 3 rounds. Difference.
This is the same as "whenever you surprise the enemy". If you can't wait 18 seconds for someone who's only chilling, you're not very patient. Also, silent invisibility by 5th level.

The spell list is limited, but you get sleep, deep slumber and greater invisibility, which are about as good as anything else. Then spell compendium makes a mess of the whole limitations things by tripling the size of the assassin's spell list.

I agree that it can all be fixed, and easily, but I mean there's rarely a prestige class where you can take it and run with it as-is. You could have fun re-tweaking a large number of them.

[Boci]

This is the same as "whenever you surprise the enemy". If you can't wait 18 seconds for someone who's only chilling, you're not very patient. Also, silent invisibility by 5th level.

And where is the rest of the party whilst this is happening? Not to mention the monster's actions may not involve chilling for 3 rounds.


The spell list is limited, but you get sleep, deep slumber and greater invisibility, which are about as good as anything else.

Greater invisibility sure, but sleep and deep slumber? 1 round save or dies that have the mind affecting discriptor. Solid, but hardly as good as anything gets.


Then spell compendium makes a mess of the whole limitations things by tripling the size of the assassin's spell list.

Doesn't give them more spell/day though.


I agree that it can all be fixed, and easily, but I mean there's rarely a prestige class where you can take it and run with it as-is. You could have fun re-tweaking a large number of them.

Assassin can run as it. It'll be powerful, but hardly game breaking.

[ericgrau]

And where is the rest of the party whilst this is happening? Not to mention the monster's actions may not involve chilling for 3 rounds.
If he's not aware of you, he'll be doing the same thing he was doing for the last 600 rounds. The stealthy guy goes ahead of the party. This is a standard tactic since 1e... for about half of fights. I feel like I'm playing silly thought games now.

Gestalt wouldn't shatter a campaign world in half either. But you couldn't run unaltered prestige classes alongside base classes. Heck even players that play with normal prestige classes tend to have a significant advantage over those who don't, enough to give the DM headaches when setting the difficulty on an encounter.

[Boci]

If he's not aware of you, he'll be doing the same thing he was doing for the last 600 rounds.

So death attack is situationally useful. I don't see a problem with this.


The stealthy guy goes ahead of the party. This is a standard tactic since 1e... for about half of fights. I feel like I'm playing silly thought games now.

So the assassin repeatedly risks being ganged up on by the encounter to gain the benefit of the class feature. A class features that gives the monsters 3 extra round to find him that the rogue never needed to worry about.


Gestalt wouldn't shatter a campaign world in half either. But you couldn't run unaltered prestige classes alongside base classes. Heck even players that play with normal prestige classes tend to have a significant advantage over those who don't, enough to give the DM headaches when setting the difficulty on an encounter.

3.5 is a headache for encounter design. I'm sorry, but I'm just not seeing an unmodified assassin being that problomatic. Its not for every game, but then nothing is.

[Fyermind]

It's like a weaker Coup-de-Grace that you can set up with several rounds of very good skill checks or buff spells. Certainly the DC gets pretty high pretty fast (10+level+ability modifier) but that's easy to fix if your feel it needs it.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Disciple of Thrym and Ocular Adept sound especially awesome.