Is there a flaw in Tarquin's scheme?

[Amphiox]

I've been thinking about Tarquin's "if I win I live like a king, if I lose I become a legend" scheme, and it has to do with the fact that, at the present moment, only the first condition is actually certain to be true.

Because, at the moment, Tarquin and company are working behind the scenes, pulling the strings of power in secret.

That means it is not common knowledge that Tarquin is the real power behind the throne in the Empire of Blood, and his role in ruling all the other nations that preceded the Empire is also not known. And neither is the true role of his party in controlling the continent widely known.

So how can you die a legend if the significance of your actual role is unknown and hidden?

If, for example, Tarquin is beaten now or in the near future, he won't be remembered as some legendary super evil overlord. He'll just be remembered as one of the Empress of Blood's flunkies. Her "dragon" top general, at best.

Is he counting on Elan (bard) spreading the real story after the fact? (In which case Elan can thwart him simply by not doing that)

Or is his scheme based ENTIRELY on breaking the Fourth Wall?

[sims796]

I suppose his legacy will eventually get out. Maybe he keeps a journal or some such?

[Kish]

I've been thinking about Tarquin's "if I win I live like a king, if I lose I become a legend" scheme, and it has to do with the fact that, at the present moment, only the first condition is actually certain to be true.
[...]

You're correct, of course. Tarquin's weakness is the failure to understand the concept of morality he views as being above said concept.

He isn't aware of any reason Elan would not be thrilled to make an epic story with him, so he assumes of course Elan will play his role, and put about the story of how he finally defeated his evil but incredibly cool father in the greatest battle of all time.

[Mike Havran]

Or is his scheme based ENTIRELY on breaking the Fourth Wall?

This.

The more I read his lines, the more I think he is actually pretty much completely aware that he is nothing more than a character in a story, and a villain to boot. Many characters give away a glimpse of understanding this, but then they return to their in-universe positions.

But Tarquin? Not so much. He knows he is designed to be a villain - to be a cruel, misogynistic, petty sort of a bastard. And he likes it, he's thankful for it, he enjoys almost every single on-panel moment he's been given - that's why he's so jolly most of the time.

If he loses, he's not going to be a legend for some OotS-verse warlord wannabes, but for the villains of fiction.

That's why he's so confindent. He's not a mere villain: he's a metavillain.

[Gift Jeraff]

He never said anything about Elan defeating the rest of his party. So Malack or someone would pass on the story of Elan vs. Tarquin, if Elan doesn't.

[Thrillhouse]

I think Tarquin figures he's sneaky enough that he won't be killed unless someone actually unravells his little conspiracy first. As far as I can see, this is how he works out his scheme:

1) If someone comes to topple the Empire without realizing that Tarquin is the big cheese, they'll go after the Empress of Blood. In which case, he stands aside and offers his services to the new king/queen, and proceeds to manipulate them into doing what he wants. (As far as I can tell, none of the figurehead leaders of Tarquin's empire have been fully aware that they were a puppet.)

Since he's done this a few times, he's probably fairly skilled at making sure he survives any attempts at kingdom-toppling, particularly when the revolutionary leader doesn't see Tarquin as the primary target.

2) If someone comes to topple the Empire and DOES recognize that Tarquin is the real leader, that person will have no reason to conceal the fact. Indeed, he may have to make it public to actually topple the empire, as he'd need to take out the other members of Tarquin's party performing similar functions in the other "nations".

If that doesn't work for you, the other way of looking at is that the "If I lose I get to be a legend" line as referring specifically to Elan. Meaning, if ELAN kills him(and his genre-savviness tells him that no one other than Elan could) he'll be a legend. Plus, as he said, he's been able to live for years in the lap of luxury already--even if he doesn't get a story out of it, he's already "won". He's going to die someday eventually, so who cares if someone just blows up the throne room and history forgets his name? Story or otherwise, he still got to live like a king.

[Thrillhouse]

Also, it's worth noting that even if Elan doesn't reveal that Tarquin was in charge of the empire, it's still got the "Father vs. Son" drama, which is way more important than his position within his evil empire. Case in point -- Darth Vader was not the leader of the Empire.

[PhantomDennis]

As per the recent coversation between Malack and Durkon, Tarquin is counting on Malack surviving him by many years and honoring him properly.

But no doubt, Tarquin is relying on his genre savvy. The reveal that the true power is the man behind the scenes is usually a major plot twist and being the final boss as it were would be a major part of the story. Truly lawful types believe in exposing the truth, while more neutral and chaotic value glory more and would not want to diminish the nature of their opponent. So the hero that would not reveal the truth Tarquin's machinations would be rare indeed.

[skim172]

I would guess that Tarquin already has a plan in place. I think PhantomDennis is correct - Tarquin is genre-savvy and knows that the major plot twist is always unveiled before the climax. And he's counting on that to happen. In the meantime, he's probably set up some arrangements to ensure his legend emerges somehow.

In any case, the story will get out. For starters, all the major and enough of the minor characters already know Tarquin is the real ruler. Soldiers and bureaucrats all get their orders from him, and foreign emissaries come to him, rather than the Queen, with diplomatic matters. It's pretty evident to anyone who's met her that Queen Zeppelin isn't running things around here. Tarquin doesn't exactly hide himself away or avoid drawing attention to himself - he's not so much "ruling from behind" the throne as he is "ruling in the name of."

Like the English Royal Family - they get all the glory and press coverage and blah blah blah and everything's in the name of His or Her Majesty, but if the country's in trouble, no one will be asking that Prince Whatshisface with the Dumbo ears to do anything. And if Prime Minister Whosit with the incredibly smooth forehead decides to nuke Canada, no one will be under any illusions about who was the evil mastermind behind that move.

Tarquin's a fairly visible and public figure. Anyone can see that the kingdoms get replaced every few years, but that one guy keeps hanging around.

The part about Tarquin and his compatriots all colluding to run all three countries might be a little more difficult to publicize, because that really is a secret. But the rumors are already in circulation and most assuredly, Tarquin's got ideas.

It also occurs to me that if things go to plan and Tarquin's narrative plays out per standard genre trope, then Tarquin's big dramatic downfall would probably include a dramatic reveal of himself and his colleagues as the major baddies, followed by a climactic battle between the combined forces of all three nations and the good guys. This will not only reveal the extent of Tarquin's villainous legacy, but also guarantee he goes down in the history books. Sure, he'll die right afterwards, but it's pretty much the death he's looking for.


But Elan has a plan to thwart Tarq's designs. So all our hopes has to rest on Elan being secretly a genius.



Off-topic, I wonder if I should be concerned that I'm more familiar with fictional rulers from an online comic than the names of prominent real-world political figures.

[Rakoa]

In any case, the story will get out. For starters, all the major and enough of the minor characters already know Tarquin is the real ruler. Soldiers and bureaucrats all get their orders from him, and foreign emissaries come to him, rather than the Queen, with diplomatic matters. It's pretty evident to anyone who's met her that Queen Zeppelin isn't running things around here. Tarquin doesn't exactly hide himself away or avoid drawing attention to himself - he's not so much "ruling from behind" the throne as he is "ruling in the name of."


Yeah. Tarquin gives orders to whoever he wishes, has huge feasts in his honour and enough money to buy some insane magical items, has statues of him around, slaves burned in his name...it is a pretty good guess that even the lowliest of peasants in the Empire of Blood understand who the ruler is.



Off-topic, I wonder if I should be concerned that I'm more familiar with fictional rulers from an online comic than the names of prominent real-world political figures.

Given that discussion of real world political figures can get you banned, you're probably better off. :P

[Obscure Blade]

But Elan has a plan to thwart Tarq's designs. So all our hopes has to rest on Elan being secretly a genius. Elan is genre-savvy in his own way, and is a Bard after all. He might not be the best guy to handle the problem of how to kill Tarquin, but he does have a good chance of coming up with a way to sabotage the "be a legend" part of Tarquin's plan.

Find some way to ensure that someone else than Tarquin gets credit for Tarquin's schemes, say; bonus points if somehow Tarquin learns this before death, that he'll die an obscure nobody. Or as "that guy who was a puppet of the real mastermind".

[Ramax]

Off-topic, I wonder if I should be concerned that I'm more familiar with fictional rulers from an online comic than the names of prominent real-world political figures.

We have real-world politics? Crap!

[denthor]

This.

The more I read his lines, the more I think he is actually pretty much completely aware that he is nothing more than a character in a story, and a villain to boot. Many characters give away a glimpse of understanding this, but then they return to their in-universe positions.

But Tarquin? Not so much. He knows he is designed to be a villain - to be a cruel, misogynistic, petty sort of a bastard. And he likes it, he's thankful for it, he enjoys almost every single on-panel moment he's been given - that's why he's so jolly most of the time.

If he loses, he's not going to be a legend for some OotS-verse warlord wannabes, but for the villains of fiction.

That's why he's so confindent. He's not a mere villain: he's a metavillain.

Cheese time

After all we all the difference between being a villain and a super-villain

IS.... Dun Dun Dun.
Presentation

Whited out so you can guess the answer.

Bonus points

What movie is that from?

[Rakoa]

Cheese time

After all we all the difference between being a villain and a super-villain

IS.... Dun Dun Dun.
Presentation

Whited out so you can guess the answer.

Bonus points

What movie is that from?

Megamind, of course. And needless to say, Tarquin has great presentation.

[NZNinja]

This sounds like something Megamind would say, although I haven't watched that movie in the last 6 months or so.

EDIT: Rakoa beat me to it!

On topic, I think there's a flaw so obvious that even Elan can see it. I just don't know what it is yet.

[pasta]

Tarquin's scheme only works if his plan fully comes to fruition (getting to live like a king for the rest of his days, and then killed by the hero in a climactic battle).

If he gets killed ignominiously, say by being brushed aside by Xykon without even being the focus of the events in the battle, then he won't die as a legend. He may be genre-savvy, but his hubris has convinced him that he will be the major villain of the story. Dying as just a minor villain, a footnote, before his plans could finish and with nobody who will tell his tale, is the fitting punishment I imagine for someone so cocky.

On an unrelated note, I don't know how the Giant is going to play out Elan's plan for defeating his dad now that Durkon is dead. I had a great theory on what Elan was going to try to do, but without Durkon I just don't see it happening ...

[snikrept]

Agreed; Tarquin counts on being overthrown in a widely-sung-about manner by a bona fide famous hero. He is trying to be as diabolical as possible so that the hero who overthrows him becomes massively more famous by so doing. Famous enough for the deed to be immortalized in legend.

For his plan to work, he needs to be as diabolical as possible and also to find a suitably heroic hero. He considers Elan to be this person, but he's not sure; thus the continual urge to take Elan's measure in pressure situations.

If it turns out he dies of coronary artery disease or something before a heroic hero can engage him, he will have failed.

Addendum: if he's considering his plan as strict either/or (live like a king or die like a legend), technically he's already won. He does, in fact, currently live like a king and has apparently been doing so for some time. But I kinda think he wants both things.

[The Succubus]

That's why he's so confindent. He's not a mere villain: he's a metavillain.

That....is a really interesting theory. I'm going to have to think on it for a while.

[Mr.Rictus]

Dying as just a minor villain, a footnote, before his plans could finish and with nobody who will tell his tale, is the fitting punishment I imagine for someone so cocky.

It's a fitting punishment for him being a evil tyrant, but I wouldn't call him cocky. When you've succeeded in conquering in your lifetime more than most wannabe rulers ever dreamed of, being confident is fairly normal. What do you expect, him to say "Wow, my team and I rule a sixth of the civilized world, we really are bad at this?"

OP is quite right, this is a flaw in his most recent plan, however one must remember, he probably didn't start out with it. When he was younger, his goal was very simple: "veni, vidi, vici". However, he realized that this wasn't feasible without secrecy. It is only years later, as he went past his prime, that he started worrying not just about his own comfort, but a legacy. He probably didn't even think he was going to be in that important a story, until he figured out his other son was an adventurer that could one day defeat him, with all the emotional angst that would entail.

So yes, it is a flaw in that plan, but it was very necessary for the preliminary step, and is easy to solve. As others have pointed out, many people already know who is the real leader, if there's a big reveal at the end of his reign, it will amply suffice.

[Forikroder]

I've been thinking about Tarquin's "if I win I live like a king, if I lose I become a legend" scheme, and it has to do with the fact that, at the present moment, only the first condition is actually certain to be true.

Because, at the moment, Tarquin and company are working behind the scenes, pulling the strings of power in secret.

That means it is not common knowledge that Tarquin is the real power behind the throne in the Empire of Blood, and his role in ruling all the other nations that preceded the Empire is also not known. And neither is the true role of his party in controlling the continent widely known.

So how can you die a legend if the significance of your actual role is unknown and hidden?

If, for example, Tarquin is beaten now or in the near future, he won't be remembered as some legendary super evil overlord. He'll just be remembered as one of the Empress of Blood's flunkies. Her "dragon" top general, at best.

Is he counting on Elan (bard) spreading the real story after the fact? (In which case Elan can thwart him simply by not doing that)

Or is his scheme based ENTIRELY on breaking the Fourth Wall?

sure if hes beaten now or in the near future, but why would he make a plan assuming that he fails miserably?

[denthor]

Megamind, of course. And needless to say, Tarquin has great presentation.

You sir have won a 1967 Chevy Cordova and you can pick it up in Morty's office.

Name that movie. Yes answer in white

Meatballs with Bill Murray

[Rakoa]

This sounds like something Megamind would say, although I haven't watched that movie in the last 6 months or so.

EDIT: Rakoa beat me to it!

On topic, I think there's a flaw so obvious that even Elan can see it. I just don't know what it is yet.

I just Ninja'd a ninja. I think I will mark that done as my greatest victory.

[NZNinja]

I just Ninja'd a ninja. I think I will mark that done as my greatest victory.

Congratulations sir! The death squad shall be there presently to collect you, and all record of the event will be permanently erased.

[Snails]

As per the recent coversation between Malack and Durkon, Tarquin is counting on Malack surviving him by many years and honoring him properly.


Malack believes as much.

Tarquin may not tell outright literal lies, but he uses his "forthrightness" to manipulate others by offering reasonable win-win deals that he will carefully interpret as he sees fit. We have no real reason to believe that gaining compliance from Malack in return for something that will happen in the far future after he is dead is not just another kind of betrayal.

[Eurthantian]

You're correct, of course. Tarquin's weakness is the failure to understand the concept of morality he views as being above said concept.

He isn't aware of any reason Elan would not be thrilled to make an epic story with him, so he assumes of course Elan will play his role, and put about the story of how he finally defeated his evil but incredibly cool father in the greatest battle of all time.

I think this is key in Tarquin's psychology. He a narcissist and it's hard, perhaps impossible, for him to see other people existing as more than card board characters in his personal drama. Of course they'll play their roles and not go off script...the fact he's often so savvy about people and motives will only make his finally miscalculation worse.

I also think there are shades of Sauron never considering anyone would want to destroy the ring... Tarquin is smart and has wisdom, but he can't think outside his own value system.

[Snails]

I think this is key in Tarquin's psychology. He a narcissist and it's hard, perhaps impossible, for him to see other people existing as more than card board characters in his personal drama. Of course they'll play their roles and not go off script...the fact he's often so savvy about people and motives will only make his finally miscalculation worse.

I also think there are shades of Sauron never considering anyone would want to destroy the ring... Tarquin is smart and has wisdom, but he can't think outside his own value system.

And we can see this dynamic clearly with respect to Elan. Elan is his son, so he must obviously be the Hero Protagonist or Villain Antagonist. As it finally dawns on him that Roy is in charge, he is still completely confused by his own son. Tarquin is simply blind to the kind of talent that Elan actually offers.

[Jay R]

All of our guesses about the flaw in Tarquin's plan are based on the notion that his description of his plan to Elan was honest, open, and complete.

Any analysis of Tarquin's words based on that assumption is doomed to failure.

[Snails]

All of our guesses about the flaw in Tarquin's plan are based on the notion that his description of his plan to Elan was honest, open, and complete.

Any analysis of Tarquin's words based on that assumption is doomed to failure.

It is a good point, but based on other evidence, it is not ridiculous to hypothesize he might choose to be honest and open with his son. As for complete, never ever.

[Ward.]

The fact is there are people who know about tarquins plan that he hasn't bothered to kill which makes me think he's set things up for his immortalisation upon his death.

Besides, to take him and his continent down you would need to be high enough level for your exploits to be legendary and no adventure is going to downplay their exploits.

[Math_Mage]

Tarquin's set up a game he can't lose.

Elan's gonna play a different game.

[Souju]

I think it's going to be something for him to lament as Team Evil kills him in a dramatic fashion towards the end of the current arc.