Evil-Alternative to Saint

[Yogibear41]

What template would be about equivalent power wise to the saint except for an evil character?(for play at around 6th level) The printed LA doesn't matter. Would a Death Knight from MM2 be a little to strong or perhaps even.

[Urpriest]

I assume this is for an NPC?

Death Knight is CR +3, while Saint is CR +2. That said, Saint's abilities are more synergistic, so I'd say they're comparable. If you want another undead, consider Gravetouched Ghoul (Libris Mortis).

[Yogibear41]

Not exactly, its for players but I know that often times LA is to high and sometimes to low, and have read that Saint is one of the best templates you can get. While other templates with absurd LA aren't very good at all, so thats basically why I wasn't looking at the LA so much as just even powers.

Basically its for the top of the top in an e6 campaign idea im working on. Working on a set of templates that players can earn to boost their power while still remaining at level 6, I have another thread open on it somewhere. And just trying to keep the powers relatively in line with one another power wise, without making them all carbon copies.

[Magemakeboom]

Unholy Scion has some abilities that rival the Saint. and the template is definitely evil enough. It is an inherited template with a +5 LA... so I'm sure you can tweak it to work for you. The unholy Scion is found in Heroes of Horrors

[Venger]

you could always just, y'know, let them use the saint template and ignore the alignment req and call it something else (first instinct is "sinner" but that's a little corny) since you're refluffing it anyway

there's nothing inherently good about their abilities, just find and replace good with evil, holy with unholy, etc like boed did with bovd.

[dascarletm]

you could always just, y'know, let them use the saint template and ignore the alignment req and call it something else (first instinct is "sinner" but that's a little corny) since you're refluffing it anyway

there's nothing inherently good about their abilities, just find and replace good with evil, holy with unholy, etc like boed did with bovd.

I second this suggestion

bless spell replaced with bane, the holy touch could even do neg energy. Bizzaro Saint

[karkus]

What do we call this, though? As mentioned above, "Sinner" doesn't have the right amount of kick in the name for a super-evil supervillian :smallannoyed:

[Venger]

What do we call this, though? As mentioned above, "Sinner" doesn't have the right amount of kick in the name for a super-evil supervillian :smallannoyed:

well, why don't you tell us a little about the fluff for it in your game. Who takes it? is there some kind of initiation thing? story-wise, what benefits does it give ?how do people in the world react to you when you tell them you're a (blank) these things will help us find a suitable name for the template.

[Medic!]

Corrupt Creature from BoVD is close-ish (maybe a hair stronger?) than the Saint template...no listed LA but it does have CR guidelines.

[T.G. Oskar]

How about "betrayer"?

If using terminology from the Divine Comedy, the worst kind of sinner would be the betrayer, which comes in four flavors (those who betray their family, their country, their guests, and finally their benefactors). The twisted reasoning behind it would be as the Saint is the epitome of altruism (and thus selflessness), the Betrayer is the epitome of betrayal (and thus selfishness).

The Death Knight isn't a good alternative, as the concept is being a servant of an evil god, rather than the epitome of evil. The Corrupted template (from Book of Vile Darkness) or the Unholy Scion are two good alternatives, though the Unholy Scion has the dual problem of being inherited AND requiring the creature to be...well, a child. An unborn child, to be precise, or pretty much a newborn.

[lord_khaine]

If you want something evil in line with the saint, then i would personaly suggest ½ fiend.
Its allmost as strong as the saint, and the fluff fits as the evil opposite to the saint.

[Yogibear41]

well, why don't you tell us a little about the fluff for it in your game. Who takes it? is there some kind of initiation thing? story-wise, what benefits does it give ?how do people in the world react to you when you tell them you're a (blank) these things will help us find a suitable name for the template.

I'm mostly still working on alot if it, it is all still in the planning phases. I know its going to be an e6 game with magic items being very rare. I'm also pretty set that the environment is going to be generally a cold and hostile place about 9 months out of the year with about 3 months being the summer months reaching high temperatures in around the low 60s. I plan on having 2-3 major cities and many other smaller villages and such mostly on the coast line. Plan on having money but in the many smaller villages where I plan to have the players start, will mostly use a bartering system due to a lack of supplies especially in the winter months. In the 3 months in the summer I plan to have trade/supply ships traveling for supplies and what not but setting it up so in the winter months travel is all but impossible for said ships making the smaller villages have to relie on themselves essentially.

I also plan to have metal be a very limited resource in the villages, and set it up where at like 90% of the worlds metal comes from mines located adjacent to one of the cities located in a mountains area. Plan is to limit low level characters to more simple weapons and armor such as clubs, staffs, and various leather and hide armors. Probably will throw in some stuff like axes(wooden handle), spears, and arrows, due to the smaller amount of metal required in making them when compared to say a sword.

There will also be a strong dividing line between arcane and divine magic, where in some place arcane will be treated with out right hatred and disgust where others it will simply be a thing to feat. The few magic items that will be either through divine creation of through arcane creation, a detect magic spell will be able to show the difference between them. I plan to have at least one religious organization of monks that are dedicated to eradicating arcane magic items and severing arcane energies from people cutting them off from their ability to cast spells. (probably through something like charisma drain or damage) Wizards will be basically extinct due to having to study and learn to cast arcane spells, where sorcerers will be the go to arcane class because of their inate ability to cast arcane spells, as well as a having a draconic ancestor way back down the line.

The greater elder dragons will be the original creators of arcane magic and will be equal in power to the lesser gods that the mortal races worship, this will lead to a sort of rivalry between the two and be one of the reasons for the hatred of arcane magic, even though at the beginning of the world the dragons and the lesser gods were both created by a supremely powerful diety to work together to watch over the world that was his creation. This will be a fact that most people do not know.

Might also throw something in about powerful arcane mages in the past trying to increase their power beyond their human limits using some sort of arcane ritual that ended up either working or backfiring, but either way being the cause of why the world is basically stuck in the semi permanent ice age that its in. This will also be an unkown fact by most.


The reason for the templates are in the long run I want the players to still be able to grow stronger than a mere 6 level cap, but I don't want to raise the level cap because I like the idea of a normal mortal only having so much power, so my aim is to make them be able to achieve a higher power by basically giving up their mortality in a way via templates. So far I've got a slightly modified werewolf template, and the saint template. However those really only fit a few character archetypes so I'm looking to broden the scope a little. Leaning toward the sepulchar thief from cityscape for rogue types, but it is also a little narrow in aspect.

And while I don't neccessarily think any of the players will want to be all out evil I want to be prepared with something that will power them up in the case they do.

Also I'm looking for something dragonic themed that would be a good fit for an arcane caster as well.

Basically tons of ideas in mind but still working on a way to fit it all together. Pretty much a long term idea im working on for something a few years down the line potentially. Theres always the chance that I will never even use this but I get a little enjoyment out of working on it from time to time in my spare time so meh its all good. :smallsmile: