PCs come up with OOC solutions and never follow through. Help!

[Talakeal]

So I have a recurring problem. While my players are planning OOC one of them will come up with an absolutely brilliant solution / observation. Several times I have heard them come up with an unstoppable strategy, guess the answer to a puzzle, or solve one of the mysteries of the plot way before they should.

This seems like a good thing, but here is the problem; they never get around to acting on it in character. Often times they forget they even said anything by the time it actually comes to solve the problem in game.

This is very frustrating for everyone involved. I hate spending an hour watching them squirm with indecision or confusion when they already had the solution to their problem. Furthermore, if I give a vague hint, like guys, you already know the answer, but don't give them anything definite it never helps and I feel like I am trolling them.

During the last session they were planning ways to defeat the campaigns BBEG and one of them was a solid gold surefire win solution. After their planning session I told them to write down their plans so they didn't forget the good one when it came time for the actual confrontation. They did, but to my dismay they wrote down all their destined for failure plans and had already forgotten the good ones.

What is a DM to do? Should I just sit back in silence and let them suffer, or should I overstep my bounds and tell them when they have a right answer, which in my mind is tantamount to railroading and cheating in their favor at the same time?

[Sith_Happens]

What is a DM to do? Should I just sit back in silence and let them suffer, or should I overstep my bounds and tell them when they have a right answer, which in my mind is tantamount to railroading and cheating in their favor at the same time?

You could probably make it seem more "fair"/"natural" by having them make whatever kind of roll is tied to planning and decision-making (probably a Wisdom check in D&D, for instance).

[snoopy13a]

You should try to ignore their brainstorming sessions. It's fairly common for people to consider and reject what would have been, in hindsight, the correct plan of action.

[Talakeal]

You should try to ignore their brainstorming sessions. It's fairly common for people to consider and reject what would have been, in hindsight, the correct plan of action.

By ignore do you mean disregard what I hear or just not listen to them in the first place?

Also, ignoring is easier said then done when they are stuck and floundering to a solution to a puzzle or marching into a tpk which they will inevitably blame on my killer DMing.

[Prince_Ornstein]

You should try to ignore their brainstorming sessions. It's fairly common for people to consider and reject what would have been, in hindsight, the correct plan of action.

this..

i think your making it more painful on yourself since you already know the answer and they stumble across it on accident and they cannot be sure, then in the heat of the moment, they make a spur of the moment decision and shoot their awesome plan in the foot.

and that makes you want to :smallfurious: hit yourself with your own books because you know they know the answer.

but if you dont know they know the answer it would be easier for everyone at the table. since your not sitting there rushing them along going "come on guys you know this" this way anything they come up with on the spot will feel right (imo)

[snoopy13a]

By ignore do you mean disregard what I hear or just not listen to them in the first place?

Also, ignoring is easier said then done when they are stuck and floundering to a solution to a puzzle or marching into a tpk which they will inevitably blame on my killer DMing.

I suppose try to zone out their conservation. Maybe check your notes or surf the internet?

Also, maybe part of the problem is they find your puzzles too difficult.

[Rhynn]

Play a system that doesn't depend on the PCs succeeding, or set up the game so that they don't always have to succeed.

Seriously, it's not the GM's job to help the players, least of all to plan strategy (except in the sense of answering questions). Let them flounder, just try to make sure it doesn't sink the game.

The main problem I see that you can and should try to ameliorate is their wasting play time being indecisive. This is simple - tell them to hurry it up. (If there's an in-character time constraint, make clear that their planning also eats up in-character time.)


Also, maybe part of the problem is they find your puzzles too difficult.

This, too. If this is such a problem that you feel it needs to be fixed, maybe your players plain aren't clever enough in the right ways to deal with the problems you're throwing at them. Tone down the level of planning or puzzling or innovation or whatever required to succeed.

[NichG]

My players tend to do this too. Generally speaking its not just that they discard the workable solution, but rather that at a given time one of them is more proactive or aggressive about solving the thing, whereas the others are sort of 'eh, but it won't work because...'. The aggressive guy will generally be right but then will get discouraged from the course of action by the rest of the group.

You could just go off for two hours and play video games and come back when they have whatever they want to do. On the other hand, I think that its better to just encourage decisiveness - most people at that 2 hour planning session will be bored too! At 10 minutes, start going around the table individually giving people an opportunity for action (so, what do you in particular do right now?). At 20 minutes, start having the world itself interrupt them. Its more important to keep the flow of game going than it is to respect the fact that these people might have hours and hours IC to sit and plan.

At the extreme end, give bonus XP or things to people who just do stuff rather than consulting the group for a consensus first. An imperfect plan with lots of amusing catastrophes along the way makes for more interesting gaming than 4 hours of planning that get wasted the first time one of the players' incorrect assumptions about the scenario is revealed.

[NikitaDarkstar]

While I can see why you're frustrated I got a question for you. Does your problems have more than one answer? It sounds to me like they don't. And it I knwo that I was playing with a DM who went "But you know the right answer!!" I would just feel horribly discouraged, cause I don't know since I can't remember. Especially if I never knew that one of my off-the-wall ideas was the right solution in the first place.

So here's a suggestion. Stop having your problems have one specific way to solve it (or a few specific ways), just give them the setup and if they come up with something that sounds cool when the problem becomes relevant let it be the right solution. At least some of the time, but especially if it's the only way to keep the game going. Or if they don't come up with any type of plan at all have there be some other way to move forward. Perhaps not easier, and perhaps not with the same amount of loot they would have gotten if they solved the problem, but at least the game advances.

[Matticussama]

As a DM I hate using the "Roll a check to solve the puzzle" sort of answers, since it seems very boring and bland to me. However, when players do throw out a correct way to solve the puzzle/riddle/whatever but never follow through on it, I'll eventually give them a skill check or ability check to realize that one of their ideas would work. Usually I let them try one or two other ideas first, and if they fail I'll prompt them with a check; "After the second failure, your character realizes that an earlier idea would overcome the problem."

I almost never just give them the answer from a skill check, but instead let it help to further develop upon a point. "You realize that part of your solution would work, but that you would need to refine this specific aspect of it..."

[Talakeal]

While I can see why you're frustrated I got a question for you. Does your problems have more than one answer? It sounds to me like they don't. And it I knwo that I was playing with a DM who went "But you know the right answer!!" I would just feel horribly discouraged, cause I don't know since I can't remember. Especially if I never knew that one of my off-the-wall ideas was the right solution in the first place.

So here's a suggestion. Stop having your problems have one specific way to solve it (or a few specific ways), just give them the setup and if they come up with something that sounds cool when the problem becomes relevant let it be the right solution. At least some of the time, but especially if it's the only way to keep the game going. Or if they don't come up with any type of plan at all have there be some other way to move forward. Perhaps not easier, and perhaps not with the same amount of loot they would have gotten if they solved the problem, but at least the game advances.

It sounds like you are suggesting some sort of reverse railroading, making it so that no matter what the players try it always works out for them. This isn't really my style, and if I was going to go easy on my players like that I would probably just tell them the answers up front to preserve the consistency of the campaign world.


As for the single solution thing, it depends. I almost never make actual puzzles or enemies with only one way to kill them. But there are enemies who have weaknesses and immunities, NPCs who know something useful if only the PCs will ask them, and hidden passages or treasures which can't be found unless the PCs bother to search.

Primarily it is an issue of coming up with adventure hooks. It would be nice if I could run a sandbox game where the players could go wherever they want, but I don't have enough prep time for the entire world and my players are neither proacvtive nor can they come to a consencus about what to do.

So, when it comes to adventure hooks, it feels a lot better when my players can put 2 and 2 together instead of being led around by the nose by an NPC. To use a Lord of the Rings example, my players did the equivelent of, upon learning of the One Ring in the shire, plotted a journey all the way to Mordor and created a plan for tossing the ring into the volcano. However, I just know that by the time they get to Rivendell they will have forgotten that plan and will need Gandalf or Strider to push them the whole way with them bitching about railroading NPCs the whole while.

[Rhynn]

It sounds like you are suggesting some sort of reverse railroading, making it so that no matter what the players try it always works out for them. This isn't really my style, and if I was going to go easy on my players like that I would probably just tell them the answers up front to preserve the consistency of the campaign world.

It's not, really. It's just better design. Don't design things with one right answer. (Well, you say you don't, so good! The following is more general, then.) That is bad. It's a terrible idea, in fact, because the odds that someone will come up with your answer are pretty dang small, even if you leave enough clues. (Do you? Or are they just coming up with ideas based on nothing? If you do, do you leave enough clues, and are they strong enough?) Create open-ended problems and situations with multiple possible solutions, and little in the way of negating solutions.

Bending the game to keep it going is better than letting it stall.


Primarily it is an issue of coming up with adventure hooks.

Smaller, more concise adventures and hooks. Lead them from place to place with small hooks that create short-duration adventures that add up to the big adventure. Following a trail of breadcrumbs rather than a single light in the distance.

Really, your options are 1. force your players to become better (you may have to be a jerk; "Well, come on, what are you all sitting around for? I'm not going to lead you by the nose, and you already figured this out once - do something!"), or 2. make your adventures simpler and easier.

[dps]

By ignore do you mean disregard what I hear or just not listen to them in the first place?

Also, ignoring is easier said then done when they are stuck and floundering to a solution to a puzzle or marching into a tpk which they will inevitably blame on my killer DMing.

My suggestion would simply to not let them discuss in-game situations OOC. Granted, you can't be too rigid in enforcing that, but it might go a long way towards solving your particular problem.

[NikitaDarkstar]

It's not, really. It's just better design. Don't design things with one right answer. (Well, you say you don't, so good! The following is more general, then.) That is bad. It's a terrible idea, in fact, because the odds that someone will come up with your answer are pretty dang small, even if you leave enough clues. (Do you? Or are they just coming up with ideas based on nothing? If you do, do you leave enough clues, and are they strong enough?) Create open-ended problems and situations with multiple possible solutions, and little in the way of negating solutions.

Bending the game to keep it going is better than letting it stall.

Smaller, more concise adventures and hooks. Lead them from place to place with small hooks that create short-duration adventures that add up to the big adventure. Following a trail of breadcrumbs rather than a single light in the distance.

Really, your options are 1. force your players to become better (you may have to be a jerk; "Well, come on, what are you all sitting around for? I'm not going to lead you by the nose, and you already figured this out once - do something!"), or 2. make your adventures simpler and easier.


This is exactly what I meant.

And honestly, it sounds a bit like your DM'ing style might not fit perfectly with your players playing-style, and to be fair, you don't ask an entire group to change to the whims of one person, but that doesn't mean there isn't hope.

You could try combining Rhynns ideas, by basically running shorter and simpler adventures, and slowly building back up to the big, long things. Hopefully it will teach/train your players how to approach the problems you throw at them, and teach them good gaming habits such as writing down ideas, details that seems important, etc.

Or you can accept that your players aren't the type that does long-term planning well and change your DM'ing style to work with that. But, well, even the DM is supposed to have fun and I have a feeling that's not the type of game you'd enjoy running for too long.