Alternate rules/systems to increase deadliness?

[OzymandiasX]

I'm going to be starting a post-apocalyptic campaign where magic has, essentially, begun to resurface on Earth. I will really be emphasizing role-play, strategy, and the survival mindset for this campaign. The players will be playing a small band of survivors and will be required to have at least one 'alt' ready for if their current character dies.

I'm leaning towards d20 systems (either Modern or D&D 3.5 most likely) because I like how they balance the significance of combat and non-combat role play as well as the balance between complexity and simplicity...

Anyways, what I do NOT want for this game is for characters to be able to ignore 'mundane' dangers. A mob of angry non-classed villagers surrounding the party should be a real threat. It doesn't matter if you're Steven Segal, if 20 fresh militia recruits with machetes jump you, you're not walking away unscathed like a high level fighter would. Similarly, if an 80 foot cliff blocks an escape route, the answer shouldn't be to just jump because you have plenty of hit points and a cleric.



So.... I'm looking for alternate rules regarding hit points (or possibly even other game systems completely) that would be suited. I've played in much more lethal game systems, but those have always been much slower paced and much more complex, which I'd also like to avoid.

Things I'm considering:

Sharply slowing down hit point gain after 1st level. Like perhaps 1/4 hit points gained per level.
Making armor play a more active role in survival by having it grant DR, but it would also lose DR (and need repair) as it takes damage. (I'd also be lessening spell failure %)
Implementing some sort of injury system. Something along the lines of any hit that exceeds your Con score in damage actually damages you. Ie. A broken leg that cuts movement speed, a concussion, blood loss that requires bed rest even after healing, etc.
A combination of these.


Anyone have experience with variant rules that may help? Or even suggestions for different systems altogether?

[Jeff the Green]

Two things. E6 significantly increases the danger by limiting your hitpoints. Second, the Vitality and Wound Points (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm) alternative rules will make everything potentially deadly.

[OzymandiasX]

Two things. E6 significantly increases the danger by limiting your hitpoints.
I had heard the term E6 before, but didn't know anything about what it was... Thanks to your suggestion I looked it up and it may be perfect. :) I really like the concept.... gonna read up on it a bit more

[Rhynn]

Massive Damage Saves. Call of Cthulhu d20 has a limit of 10 points for PCs and human NPCs (50 for monsters). A rifle does 2d10 damage, so an average of 11. More than half the time, a rifle-shot is more than 50% likely to kill an average investigator (the usual Fort save DC 15, IIRC). Also, a deep one or a ghoul can easily deal 10+ damage in one attack. Makes for a very deadly game.

Conan d20 uses a slightly higher limit, IIRC - probably 20? I'm not sure, but the net effect is that at higher levels, combat is more lethal (at least against high-level opponents; although the way the defense bonuses work, you can still be challenged by bunches of low-level mooks), because your damage threshold doesn't go up, but the damage dealt by each individual attack does.

I think d20 Modern does the same general thing.

You could make it a variable threshold - say, equal to Con, or Con + 5.

If you want to limit hit points, going "old-school" (a bit similar to the E6 solution) may work: after 9th level, you stop rolling for hit points and no longer add your Con bonus, and just get a straight +1 to +3 (depending on class; d4 would get +1, d6 and d8 would get +2, and d10 and d12 would get +3) hit points each level. You can lower the level that this enters into play. Heck, you might make it start at 2nd level... you get full hp (or a roll) plus Con mod at 1st level, and thereafter only 1 to 3 hp per level... but if you combine this with the above, things may get too lethal.

[OzymandiasX]

I've considered using massive damage rule variants, but options are iffy at best. Some systems (like d20 Modern give a set DC Fort save that becomes trivial at mid-high levels) plus it seems like it can really unbalance things by making something like Power Attack with a 2-handed weapon considerably more deadly than two-weapon style (and they're designed to be comparable)

I do like the CONCEPT of massive damage thresholds being a real danger to PCs, though...

[KillingAScarab]

In Rules Compendium, Jennifer Clarke Wilkes wrote the following in a comment on the rules for falling.


Falling in D&D has always been a simplified business. The maximum of 20d6 points of damage goes back to the earliest edition of the game. The 3e rules allow Tumble and Jump checks to negate some damage, and make the first 10 feet deal nonlethal damage for deliberate jumps, but the rule has essentially remained the same for 30 or more years. Players have a tendency to metagame this limitation, deliberately having their characters hurl themselves from great heights to save time, confident that they'll survive the fall.

My husband, Chris, developed a rather complex system for falling, in which the d6 rolls don't represent absolute damage but a proportion of hit points. A result of 6 requires a reroll for the possibility of a broken bone. Modifiers apply for special circumstances, such as landing on a soft or sloping surface (reducing damage), landing on a jagged surface (increasing damage), or falling into water. DM discretion might adjust these guidelines. This house rule requires more calculation but does put the fear of heights back into the game: A 15th-level fighter and a 1st-level commoner have the same chance to be hurt by a great fall.

As for an injury/called shot system, I believe there was one in a supplement for d20 Star Wars, which had already implemented the wound and vitality point system by default.

Found it. Star Wars Gamer issue 4. The article is Critical Care by Michael Mikaelian. For random locations of a hit which does wound point damage, roll a d10. 1 and 2 are left and right arms, 3 and 4 are left and right legs, 5-9 is torso, 10 is head. If you want to aim for a part, on a medium sized creature treat an arm as if it were a diminutive target, a leg and the torso are considered tiny, while the head, a hand and a foot are fine. If you are successful in a called shot you can force a saving throw for various effects. An arm: DC 10 will save to avoid dropping a held item. A leg: DC 10 will save to avoid falling prone. Torso: DC 10 fortitude save to avoid being stunned for 1 round. Head: DC 20 fortitude save to avoid being stunned for 1d6 rounds. A hand: DC 20 reflex save to avoid dropping a held item. A foot: DC 20 reflex save to avoid falling prone.

Beyond these tables, there were three more for what to do on a confirmed critical hit. Keep in mind, Star Wars has quite different weapons than a high fantasy setting. Also keep in mind that in Star Wars a limb could potentially be replaced by a prosthetic. Roll a d10 on the appropriate table, attempt the designated saving throw (though I don't know how the saves or DCs were chosen; will saves against piercing really don't make much sense).

The first table is for a critical hit with a lightsaber or a slashing weapon. 1 or 2, target attempts a DC 12 reflex save to avoid dismemberment; on a failure roll a d4 against the random hit locations table to determine what is severed. 3, 4 or 5, target attempts a DC 12 reflex save to avoid losing a hand (choose randomly). 6, 7 or 8, target attempts a DC 15 reflex save to avoid severe leg injury (1/2 movement rate, -8 on climb, move silently, swim and tumble checks until healed). 9 or 10, target attempts a DC 10 reflex save to avoid decapitation.The second table is for blasters, lightsabers or piercing weapons.1 or 2, target attempts a DC 12 will save to avoid losing an eye (choose one randomly). Fail and you're blind in it (double range penalties, -4 on visual skill checks such as search, spot and piloting a vehicle until healed). 3, 4 or 5, target attempts a DC 15 will save or a limb has been pierced. Roll a d4 on the random hit location table. 6 or 7, target attempts a DC 12 will save or losses hearing in one ear (choose randomly). -4 to gather information, listen, sense motive skill checks and a -2 to initiative until healed. 8, 9 or 10, target attempts a DC 15 will save to avoid being punctured in the torso.The third table is for bludgeoning weapons.1, 2 or 3, target attempts a DC 10 fortitude save to avoid a broken limb; on a failure, roll a d4 on the random hit location table. 4 or 5, target attempts a DC 12 fortitude save to avoid a broken hand (choose randomly). 6, 7 or 8, target attempts a DC 15 fortitude save to avoid broken ribs; a failed save means movement rate is halved, -4 on reflex saves and skill checks derived from strength, dexterity or constitution (until healed). 9 or 10, target attempts a DC 12 fortitude save to avoid severe head trauma; take half the wound point damage dealt and apply it as ability damage to dexterity, intelligence and wisdom. No wound point damage is done.

There's additional information on what to do with severed or broken limbs, as well as impaled limbs, and for bleeding from wounds which weren't dealt by weapons which would cauterize them (as an energy weapon would). Let me know if you need those guidelines, too.