TWF and Swordsages

[Dayaz]

For the unarmed Swordsage type, does having TWF make you a better swordsage? I'm using the Skarn Monk racial class to use my spine as an unarmed strike, but I was considering a Spinemeld Warrior dip to be able to use TWF with my spines, but I don't know if it's worth it.

[DarkSonic1337]

Swordsages make great TWFs with the schools they have access to

Desert Wind-Burning/Searing/Inferno Blade give you a decent source of bonus damage (it would be much better if it weren't fire). Burning Brand extends your reach for a turn (but again, the problem is fire damage), and Leaping Flame lets you close in on ranged/reach enemies.

Diamond Mind-besides the counters that you'll probably be grabbing anyway, it does have quicksilver motion (swift action movement) and TIME STANDS STILL!

Shadow Hand-shadow jaunt/stride/blink are very nice movement options, with the last being a SWIFT action. And it opens you up to the shadow blade feat, which lets you use your dexterity modifier as a boost to DAMAGE rolls, but only in a shadow hand stance (assassin's stance and child of shadow are nice) and using a shadowhand weapon (unarmed strike is one of them :)) Going this route allows you to actually dump strength as long as you don't mind being in a shadowhand stance for the majority of combat

Tiger Claw-Dancing and Raging Mongoose give you extra attacks for having two weapons, pouncing charge is...well pounce to help you move and full attack, sudden leap is swift action movement for a jump check, and wolf fang strike lets you attack with both weapons as a standard action.


Depending on how much swordsage you plan on taking not all of these options will be available. Check them out and be careful about maneuver selection and meeting prereqs. Tiger Claw is the big school for TWF and really you only need a few maneuvers from the others to create a really nice TWFer.

[Dayaz]

I might be using the Setting Sun, Tiger Claw, and Shadow Hands maneuver lists, but I don't know enough about the class yet to really know.

I'll be basically going:
Skarn Racial Monk 1/ Swordsage 18/ Spinemeld Warrior1 unless there's another reason to stay SpW

[Darrin]

For the unarmed Swordsage type, does having TWF make you a better swordsage?


Yes and no. TWF + Shadow Blade sucks up all your feats, barely leaving you any room for things like Adaptive Style. TWF and standard-action strikes don't always get along, but if you focus on boosts and counters, then Swordsages can be extremely potent TWFers. But Swordsages that don't go TWF can be just as potent.



I'm using the Skarn Monk racial class to use my spine as an unarmed strike, but I was considering a Spinemeld Warrior dip to be able to use TWF with my spines, but I don't know if it's worth it.

And I thought the normal unarmed strike rules were quirky... I think this should work, although I'm not entirely sure what happens if you get Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat from somewhere else.

I'd probably want to ask the DM if he can loosen up the rules on mixing the spine attacks with non-spine weapons, because I don't think the designer who wrote up the Skarn/Spinemeld Warrior really had any clue how TWF and natural weapons were supposed to work.

[Dayaz]

Well normally you get 1 spine as a natural attack. The Monk racial lets you use the spine for your unarmed strike stuff like flurry of blows and so, and the spinemeld warrior lets you use 2 spines that count as light weapons, so you still get a penalty

makes sense to me, at least lol

[DarkSonic1337]

Basically it's a matter of prefference. The schools give you enough maneuver support to make the TWF feat investment worth it, but you can obviously do other things instead, like maybe a tripper build,


Quick question. Does your DM allow Flaws (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm)?

[Dayaz]

yea, but they have to be relevant. We're allowed 1 flaw and i think 2 traits?

[Darrin]

Well normally you get 1 spine as a natural attack.

Actually, the spines are not considered natural weapons. If they were, then they couldn't be used for offhand attacks.

By treating spines as unarmed strikes, they then become natural weapons, which fixes some of the rules headaches they were causing in the first place.

But then the text says, "This benefit replaces a standard monk’s unarmed strike class feature gained at 1st level." And this is completely stupid, because that's the text that grants monks Improved Unarmed Strike, along with all of the features that go with it, including the increased damage, treating it as manufactured/natural weapon, full Str bonus on flurries, etc. You could even say that because you no longer have Improved Unarmed Strike, whenever you attack with your spines as an unarmed attack, you provoke an AoO.

Another possible headache: all of the unarmed strike related feats that you can't take because they require Improved Unarmed Strike as a prereq.