How's this 1st level diviner look?

[Zach J.]

There's a game coming up in my area that I may be able to play in. I've created a character and I just wanted to get a second opinion on his playability.

Zordlon (I saw this name as a suggestion in the Pathfinder entry on elves. It was so silly that I had to use it.)

TN Gray Elf Diviner 1

STR 6, DEX 13, CON 10, INT 20, WIS 10, CHA 8

Concentration +4, Decipher Script +9, Knowledge: Arcana +9, Knowledge: Nature +9, Knowledge: The Planes +9, Knowledge: Religion +9, Listen +2, Search +7, Spellcraft +9, Spot +2

Scribe Scroll, Toughness

Spellbook
0 All except Evocation
1 Color Spray, Detect Evil, Expeditious Retreat, Grease, Identify, Mage Armor, Shield, Sleep

Spells Prepared
0 Daze (2), Detect Magic, Read Magic
1 Color Spray, Detect Evil, Mage Armor, Sleep

Equipment: Wizard's Spellbook (3 lb.), Spell Component Pouch (2 lb.), Scroll Case (0.5 lb.), Backpack (2 lb.), Waterskin (4 lb.), 3 Days' Trail Rations (3 lb.), 1 oz. Vial of Ink (0.1 lb.), 2 Inkpens, Parchment (5 sheets), Flint and Steel, 5 flasks of Oil

33 gp, 8 sp

19.6 lb. carried

That's it. I doubt the game goes past level 3. Any suggestions for improvement? A half-elf rogue, a dwarf or half-orc barbarian, a human ranger and a bard make up the rest of the party.

[RagnaroksChosen]

If you don't think the game will go far, you may want to switch out your feats for ones more fun, like cheep meta-magic...

[Zach J.]

I only have access to the SRD.

[Divide by Zero]

Skill Focus is pretty much a waste of a feat unless it's a prerequisite for something. For core-only and probably not going past level 3, you'll have a hard time getting more bang for your buck than Improved Initiative.

[KillingAScarab]

Are you using point buy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5661319&postcount=5) to get your ability scores? If so, you have a non-standard total. By my account, if you are using 25 point buy, you're two points over. If you are using 28 point buy, you're one point under. 16 spent on intelligence, 5 spent on dexterity, 4 spent on constitution, 2 spent on wisdom.

[ericgrau]

Grease has a 1 round duration at level 1. I'd prepare something else for now. Make sure it's another offensive combat spell, or even a 3rd might be nice. As would preparing a 2nd copy of daze as a backup for when you run out of 1st level offensive spells. After that comes a crossbow. With that little strength plan your equipment carefully. Other than that your character looks great.

Healing will be difficult at level 1 without a divine caster. The ranger should have ranks in heal. Cure light wounds potions for emergencies would be nice too. But by level 2 your party can pool gold for a wand of cure light wounds and the ranger can use it even though he can't cast yet. Or if you can find one with half charges it's half price. A healer would be nice, but don't play one if you don't want to. Having fun is #1.


Skill Focus is pretty much a waste of a feat unless it's a prerequisite for something.
It's a pre-req for loremaster, but I see the point. It would be better to get metamagic pre-reqs first even though he can't use it yet. Extend, then empower spell IMO, or depends on his spell selection.

Though really if it's unlikely to go past 3, I wouldn't get metamagic either. I'd get toughness twice. No, seriously. It doubles his hit points. For that matter get a toad familiar for 3 more hp. Playing a wizard without ever getting to level 5 is going to suck, but double hp and good spell choices will mitigate it tremendously. If you're holding high hopes for a game that goes past level 3, I'd still get the toad familiar but get feats for loremaster or whatever. Even so level 1 will be scary until you get the 100 gp for the familiar.

[Zach J.]

Are you using point buy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5661319&postcount=5) to get your ability scores? If so, you have a non-standard total. By my account, if you are using 25 point buy, you're two points over. If you are using 28 point buy, you're one point under. 16 spent on intelligence, 5 spent on dexterity, 4 spent on constitution, 2 spent on wisdom.

Oops, you're right. I'll change his dexterity to a 13.

Thanks for the input, guys. I've switched out Skill Focus for Improved Initiative and switched out a couple of prepared spells. Should be fun.

Oh, as far as equipment goes I was planning to buy a spellbook and component pouch, some paper and writing utensils and a backpack to keep them in and save the rest for a familiar.

[ericgrau]

I forgot how expensive a light crossbow is for a level 1 character. In that case pick up some flasks of lantern oil (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsAndServices.htm#oil) as your backup weapon, plus flint and steel to light (1 gp). They're only 1 sp each so the main limit is their 1 pound weight. A 50% chance of 2d6 fire for 2 turns is pretty bad but it's better than nothing. Plus a surprising number of problems may be solved with fire.

[morkendi]

It looks like you dropped necromancy which has some good spells later on. I would drop evocation instead.

[ericgrau]

Why do I even bother :smallsigh:. They're not even 1/3rd as good as evocations. Don't drop the 2nd best school just because of internet hyperbole. And I am saying this as someone who likes necromancy a lot. But with low level and no other major party casters, he needs just about everything else whereas necromancy is just kinda nice.

At level 3 pick up flaming sphere & web because there's not much else good for level 2 spells at level 3. Past level 3, level 2 spells have a metric ton of utility you might like. For your divination I've found locate object is surprisingly good at unlocking plot. Then if the campaign goes past level 3 soon after you'll want magic missile and scrolls/oil of magic weapon (oil for others) in case you guys fight incorporeal foes. Because nobody else has much to fight them. Once you hit 5th level there are a million good choices, if you even reach that far, so I'll stop here.

[ahenobarbi]

They're not even 1/3rd as good as evocations. Don't drop the 2nd best school just because of internet hyperbole. And I am saying this as someone who likes necromancy a lot. But with low level and no other major party casters, he needs just about everything else whereas necromancy is just kinda nice.

Evocation is utter waste especially at lower levels.

First level (srd) evocations are (miserable) damaging spells and floating disc (which is simply worse than Mount). So he looses absolutely no good 1st level spells banning evocation.

Second level (srd) evocations are too good either:
- Continual Flame? Not really worth getting in spell book (you'll cast it like 4 times in a lifetime...).
- Darkness? Nice, but Obscuring mist is 1st level...
- Flaming Sphere? So you can do almost as much damage as other party members...
- Gust of Wind? Useful. Sometimes. At higher levels.
- Scorching Ray? This can do more damage in a round than other memebers of your party. Maybe. Once (twice?) a day.
- Shatter? It's very situational, you don't want to prepare when you're level 3.


At level 3 pick up flaming sphere & web because there's not much else good for level 2 spells at level 3. For your divination I've found locate object is surprisingly good at unlocking plot.

You don't get 3 spells from leveling as a specialist. So I'd suggest Glitter dust (or Web - if you think you will be able to use it) and detect thoughts (it's awesome and has many uses...).

[Zach J.]

The reason I banned Necromancy was for role-playing reasons. I thought we'd have a paladin in our group. Since I doubt we will I may change my forbidden school to Evocation.

So as far as level progression...

2 New Spells: Obscuring Mist, Ray of Enfeeblement

3 New Feat: Improved Initiative, New Spells: Detect Thoughts or Locate Object, Glitterdust

[ahenobarbi]

The reason I banned Necromancy was for role-playing reasons. I thought we'd have a paladin in our group. Since I doubt we will I may change my forbidden school to Evocation.

But paladin should have nothing against using necromancy (unless you use it to create undead).


2 New Spells: Obscuring Mist, Ray of Enfeeblement

Ray of Enfeeblement is Necromancy so you should ban useless Evocation and take it :smallwink:

[morkendi]

Drop improved initiative at first level and go collegiate wiz at first. You can pick imp initiative later. Gives you more spells and at each lvl, but has to be taken at 1st. Also, you are elf. No need for crossbow as you can use a normal bow for better fire rate.

[ericgrau]

By level 3 you should have 350 gp for another 2nd level spell, but if you have to choose pick up flaming sphere before web or anything else. Your foes average 12 hp and +3 reflex and it lasts for multiple rounds. That makes flaming sphere better than most anything you can do because it's a reliable kill or two from only 1 spell, whereas others are a maybe or maybe not debuff 1 or 2 foes. Web is next best because it can disable 1 or more foes for a couple rounds or longer whether he saves or not, but you don't always have opposable surfaces so it's risky. If you expect swarms of clustered non-undead I might pick web first, because it's great against large numbers and then you can still cast sleep when there aren't opposable surfaces.

But what's best of all is flaming sphere + web in combination because the no-save fire damage from the burning web will double your flaming sphere damage. So if you have any money at all I'd pay the 350 gp and get both. Then nothing else among level 2 spells even comes close.

[ahenobarbi]

By level 3 you should have 350 gp for another 2nd level spell, but if you have to choose pick up flaming sphere before web or anything else. Your foes average 12 hp and +3 reflex and it lasts for multiple rounds. That makes flaming sphere better than most anything you can do because it's a reliable kill or two from only 1 spell, whereas others are a maybe or maybe not debuff 1 or 2 foes.

I think Flaming Sphere (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/flamingSphere.htm) works differently than you think. It deals 2d6 not 12 damage. And reflex negates.

Average CR 3 monster will has about 27 HP and reflex save +4 (source (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=172050)). Save DC will be 17 (10 + 5(int) + 2 (spell level)), so average monster will make the save on 13 (40% of time). Spell lasts only 3 rounds.

So the spell will deal on average

12.6 = 3 (rounds) * 60% (chance monster will fail save and take damage) * 7 (average damage for 2d6)

points of damage, not nearly enough to kill the monster. And the monster gets to attack everybody to it full potential for three rounds.

Compare this to using Hideous Laughter (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideousLaughter.htm) - 65% chance that enemy does nothing for 3 rounds (during which you & your party safely can kill the enemy). Or Glitterdust ( http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/glitterdust.htm) - 65% chance that enemy will be blind for 3 round. If enemy is blind rogue gets 2d6 sneak attack (that alone matches Flaming Sphere damage...) and has much less chance of hurting anybody.

TL;DR Flaming Sphere is weak.

[ahenobarbi]

By level 3 you should have 350 gp for another 2nd level spell, but if you have to choose pick up flaming sphere before web or anything else.

Rather than paying 150gp for scroll of 2ndl level spell to learn it you should pay another wizard 100gp to copy the spell from her/his/its spell book.

[eggynack]

Evocation is clearly pretty miserable at most levels, but it's not that big a loss trading away necromancy for it. They're both in the bottom three schools, along with enchantment, and any of those choices are pretty valid. You lose out on some pretty great debuffs, but in return you get contingency and wall of force. You also get to cast fireball, which is a bit mediocre, but it's also somewhat archetypal. It's not like you get the orb of x spells if you're limited to core, so the school won't be quite so obsoleted. I suppose the spells I mentioned are a bit up there levelwise, but it's not the biggest deal in the world. At least it's not one of the other 5 schools, because that would be somewhat more problematic. However, because the game is low leveled, enchantment probably goes up in rank due to more viable targets for the high powered spells, and abjuration probably goes down a bit because dispel magic comes later. The level issue should probably be taken into account somewhere in the equation.

[ahenobarbi]

The level issue should probably be taken into account somewhere in the equation.

I think that because of the level:
- Evocation is poor (the few good core Evocation spells are much later than level 3).
- Necromancy is ok: Cause Fear (make enemy loose or debuff it even if on successful save), Blindness/Defaness (if you want to target Fortitude), Command Undead (encounter-winner, bit prepare only if you know you will be fighting undead).
- Enchantment is good: Sleep and Hideous Laughter take enemies out.

[ahenobarbi]

Now that I think about it... since you plan only up to level 3 maybe you should choose what spells you want and decide on banned school after that :smallsmile:


You will get
{table]Level | Number of spells you will learn from leveling | My suggestions
0 | All | All
1 | 10 (3 + Int +2) | Spells to prepare on day-to-day basis
True Strike (because you have slot for divinations only and it's very good... sometimes)
Sleep - they make save or you cut their throats... be ware that about level 3 enemies become immune to it.
Color Spray - weaker than Sleep but affects undead and has shorter casting time... decide which of those 2 you prefer.
Silent Image - this can be very good or very bad... depending on you and your DM so check if it works for you.
Cause Fear - enemies loose if they fail save... and if they succeed they still are somewhat debuffed for a round.
Enlarge Person - longer range and more damage from your party mate.
Spells that you want to have in spell book, but prepare them only if you know you will need them (or leave one slot open so you can memorize one of them in 15 minutes):

Comprehend Languages
Identify
Mount
Disguise Self
Spells that will be useful starting level 3 or so (earlier they last too short)
Grease

2 | 2 + n (300gp each)|
Web - it's very good... if you can use it. so prepare it only if you are spending day in environment where you can use it (dungeon, forest, city... pretty much everything except plains).
Glitterdust - They can't hide from you. And if they are blind they have rogue can Sneak attack them. And they have 50% miss chance against you. And no dexterity to armor class.
Detect Thoughts - because you are diviner. Find enemies and secrets!
Blindness/deafness - make enemies blind, like with glitter dust. Only weaker. But it requires fortitude save so you might want it (if you are against someone with poor Fortitude but good Will save).
Command Undead - don't prepare unless you know you will fight undead... but then you simply win.

[/table]