Beguiler multiclass

[BiblioRook]

So I just joined a game that I'm rather looking forward to which is going to be more cloak and daggery rather then hack 'n slash. I've never been particularly keen on combat and this seems pretty ideal for me, my first thought on what to play as went to one of my favorite classes I've never really had a chance to use; the Beguiler.
Hit a little bit of a hiccup there though. While the DM is fine with me being a Beguiler, he wants me to spend 5 levels in a PHB class first. This is rather annoying as that game starting at 12 level I was looking forward to getting to those high level spells.

So the question here is, what would be a good 5 level dip for a Beguiler starting with 12 levels? Alternatively, since five levels in a class usually is what sets you up for a prestige class, is there a different route that might work out better without bothering going into Beguiler at all?

Probably an obvious choice for most here will be Wizard (for the spell progression), but one of the reasons Beguiler would have worked out so well because what the party really needs is a Rogue-ish character and I feel amiss missing out on the skill selection.

[thethird]

Would prestige bard be okay? They make good dips for beguilers anyway but loosing 5 caster levels is probably not great for the beguiler. Unless... You might want to go Wizard / Beguiler / Ultimate Magus, that's a nice combo.

[chaos_redefined]

With that restraint, you may be better going Unseen Seer or something like that. It kinda sucks, but 5 levels of non-beguiler class hinder your casting way too much.

[Daftendirekt]

While the DM is fine with me being a Beguiler, he wants me to spend 5 levels in a PHB class first.

What the hell? Why on earth is he demanding this? :smallconfused:

[BiblioRook]

Hmm, while I've played spellcasters before, I've never dabbled in the fiddly bit about multiclassing them. With spell progression, tell me, would taking the five levels in a spell progressing class and finishing the rest for Beguiler (or whatever) then let me able to reach 6th level Beguiler spells? Or how does this work exactly.

[Shadowknight12]

I have a player in my campaign who is going beguiler/rogue/arcane trickster. Suboptimal, yes, but the campaign is combat-light and RP-heavy, so it wasn't an issue.

Going that route will net you 15 levels of beguiler casting (7th level spells) and +8d6 sneak attack, plus Impromptu Sneak Attack 2/day and a smattering of other class features.

If you can talk your DM down to 2 levels instead of 5, you can take 3 more levels in beguiler for a total of 18 caster levels, which should net you 9th level spells. If you do that, you need to take a feat that gives you an extra +1d6 of Sneak Attack (Craven from Champions of Ruin, I think, does that).

EDIT:

Or go wizard/beguiler/ultimate magus, that seems quite strong.

[Daftendirekt]

Ask for your DM's rationale behind making you take 5 levels of a PHB class. Being forced into something like that could gimp (or possibly destroy) ANY build, but especially a caster build where the caster isn't in the PHB.

[thethird]

Imagine that you are a wizard specializing in illusion and enchantment. You take 5 levels of it get access to 3rd level spells and then say, this is cool I will go beguiler and take 6 more levels getting access to 3rd level beguiler spells. If instead of that you went straight wizard you would be casting 6th level spells.

6th level spells >>> 3rd level spells

Again:

Wizard 5 / Beguiler 1 / Ultimate Magus X

Works (although it would work better with wizard 4) and it doesn't have a lot of beguiler levels.

[BiblioRook]

What the hell? Why on earth is he demanding this? :smallconfused:

So I asked him about it. The game I'm joining has been running for a bit already and apparently started out being limited to core classes all-together, so he feel that me starting with something outside of the PHB wouldn't be fair to the other players that weren't allowed that versatility when they made their characters.
Personally I'm a bit frustrated with it now. I kinda had my heart set on Beguilers (like I said, I always wanted an opportunity to play one and they really would be ideal for this campaign), but with the 5 level restriction I don't think I can make them worth it. I'm probably going to have to fall back on playing a Rogue, but that just seems kinda boring in comparison now...

[thethird]

Go wizard 5 (with spontaneous divination) / Unseen seer 7 They are fun and skilled too.

[Callin]

Seems reasonable. You could go Rogue/Beguiler/Unseen Seer. That seems like it would be really fun.

[Monticularis]

If your dm is open to a bit of houseruling, see if he'll let you play a wizard 5/beguiler X except the wizard levels advance beguiler casting instead of the usual wizard casting. Beguiler's casting is almost universally considered worse than a wizard's casting, but its better than losing out on 5 levels worth of spells.

[Analytica]

So I asked him about it. The game I'm joining has been running for a bit already and apparently started out being limited to core classes all-together, so he feel that me starting with something outside of the PHB wouldn't be fair to the other players that weren't allowed that versatility when they made their characters.
Personally I'm a bit frustrated with it now. I kinda had my heart set on Beguilers (like I said, I always wanted an opportunity to play one and they really would be ideal for this campaign), but with the 5 level restriction I don't think I can make them worth it. I'm probably going to have to fall back on playing a Rogue, but that just seems kinda boring in comparison now...

Ask the DM if they would be OK with you starting as a Beguiler if the other players are also OK with it. They should be.

Also note that Beguilers, while fun, are a weaker class than the PHB full casters. This is probably a good thing, so everyone involved should be happy you are willing to do Beguiler rather than Wizard.

[Urpriest]

Beguiler is fun, but your DM is clumsy and makes the idea infeasible.

I'll echo others' recommendations of Bard. If you feel you need Trapfinding, there are several ways to achieve that. One build to consider:

Bard 5/Spellthief 1/Unseen Seer 4/Sublime Chord 2

This gets you lots of skill points for most of your progression, and 5th level spells, with 6ths next level. You'll be a bit weaker on casting than a straight Beguiler, but much better off than if you had lost five levels.

[Mdpoyser]

well if you must use a core class, the rogue/wizard or sorcerer/unseen seer sounds like that's right up your alley, a lot of the spells on the beguiler list are from the sorc/wizard list I think...or you can just ask your dm if you can use the beguilers spell list instead of wizards

[Sylian]

I am no optimizer, but what about Cleric 5, then some Beguiler and Mystic Theurge? Would that work? You'd lose some Beguiler power, sure, but you'd gain a bit of versatility, and it's probably better than going Fighter 5 or something like that. You could go Cleric 5/Beguiler 4/Mystic Theurge 3, letting you cast as a level 8 Cleric and a level 7 Beguiler. You might want the Practiced Spellcaster feat to boost your Beguiler/Cleric spellcasting, at least if you rely on spells where caster level is relevant.

This does have the downside of making you a bit MAD, but you can probably get away with a moderate Wisdom score if you just prepare spells that don't require a high DC. 14 Wisdom to start with, though you could buff some of it with items.

I'm not really sure how good idea this would be, but it could be interesting. For flavor, you might want to worship a deity whose dogma fits your character's philosophy. Perhaps a trickster deity? Anyway, if you have to take levels in a core class, your best bet is probably some kind of prestige class.

[prufock]

I am no optimizer, but what about Cleric 5, then some Beguiler and Mystic Theurge? Would that work? You'd lose some Beguiler power, sure, but you'd gain a bit of versatility, and it's probably better than going Fighter 5 or something like that. You could go Cleric 5/Beguiler 4/Mystic Theurge 3, letting you cast as a level 8 Cleric and a level 7 Beguiler. You might want the Practiced Spellcaster feat to boost your Beguiler/Cleric spellcasting, at least if you rely on spells where caster level is relevant.

Theurge is usually worse than a straight spellcasting class because it delays your spell progression for both classes. It's why a lot of people resort to early entry tricks like Precocious Apprentice and Versatile Spellcaster. However if you get a kick out of having lots of spells per day, or if you're going to take a hit to spell progression anyway (by way of multiclassing), it might not be a bad option, just not optimal.

As others have said, Unseen Seer is a good option if it's available. I'm kind of fuzzy on the details of what books you can use. I would not go into Beguiler if he's forcing you to delay your spell progression by 5 levels.

Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 7 or Rogue 1/Wiz 6/USS 6 is pretty good. Wizard doesn't have all the skills you want, but as you're Int-focused and wizards don't need many skills, you should have spare points to spend on the cross-class skills you need to enter USS. If you're low on skill points, see if you can take Able Learner (Races of Destiny, must be human) so you count rogue skills as class skills, but it's not really necessary. Otherwise halfling or gnome are good race choices as well. Wizard is also a prepared rather than spontaneous caster, if that's important to you. Progress to USS 10, pick up another wiz level, and grab 4 levels of Arcane Trickster if you get to that high a level.

Core-only, you could go Rogue 5/Assassin 5/Arcane Trickster 2. Not nearly as strong in spellcasting, but fills the sneaky trapfinding role well. Finish with 3 more AT levels and go back to rogue or whatever floats your boat. If you want "more caster, less sneak," rogue 3/wizard 5/AT 4+ is okay.

[BiblioRook]

Thanks for the help with this, but I think I'm going to go in a somewhat different direction. Different enough that I think it warrants a new thread.