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Yuven
2013-04-04, 05:11 PM
Ok, so I have been playing Dungeons and Dragons, and similar RPGs for some years now, but I have never seen any visual representations of how a given amount of gold looks like. For example, lets say you find 2000gp in a pile. How large would that pile be? Would it fit in a backpack? not that 2000gp would be an amount you would like to carry on your back, but that is besides the point. I really would like to get a good grip on how different amounts would look, and how one can practically move it. It might be a weird question, but it really has bugged me a while.

for example how much gold would this be?
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dragons_hoard_72.jpg

NichG
2013-04-04, 05:21 PM
I'd put that at about 3000gp-8000gp depending on what's in the chest. The various gold objects I'm putting at about 150gp apiece - they look like they weigh at least a pound, and due to craftsmanship they're worth ~3x their weight in gold. As far as the coins, the pile looks like it has about 1000 coins in it, and the chest would contain as many coins as the pile itself.

KillianHawkeye
2013-04-04, 07:03 PM
2000 gp? Well, let's do the math, shall we?

The Player's Handbook says that 50 coins weigh one pound. So... 2000 divided by 50 equals 40 pounds. If we convert that into grams (you'll see why in a second), the Internet tells me that is 18,143.7 grams.

Now, the density of gold is about 19.3 grams per cubic centimeter. So we take 18,143.7 divided by 19.3 and we get a volume of gold of approximately 940 cubic centimeters. That means that if you melted down all those coins and molded them into a solid cube, it would be just under 10 centimeters on each side (or about 3.85 inches on each side, if you prefer).

Obviously, if you left them as coins, the irregular shape would create air pockets that will cause the mass to occupy a larger amount of space, but my guess is it all would still fit in a mid-size sack.



If you'd like a different visual for it, compare them to poker chips. Most people could probably hold a hundred poker chips if they cupped both hands together. Multiply two handfuls by 20 and you got your 2,000.

Google says that the width of a poker chip is just above .13 inches or 3.4 millimeters. That means a stack of 100 chips will be slighter more than 13 inches tall. And we're talking about 20 such stacks, or a single precarious stack about 22 feet and 2 inches in height. I hope there isn't a breeze!

Slipperychicken
2013-04-04, 10:09 PM
Would it fit in a backpack? not that 2000gp would be an amount you would like to carry on your back, but that is besides the point.

2000gp is 40lb. That's a medium load for most characters, and trivial for a horse or other pack animal.

So it's absolutely an amount you can carry. You'd probably want a garbage-bag-sized sack though (and double-bag it in case it rips).

Starbuck_II
2013-04-04, 10:22 PM
for example how much gold would this be?
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dragons_hoard_72.jpg

Most of that is silver and copper pieces if you look closely. It takes 10 silver or 100 copper to be a gold piece.

Rhynn
2013-04-04, 10:24 PM
Like KillianHawkeye shows, if you do the math, hoards of gold coins always end up being disappointingly small. Even with oversized D&D coins. (Real coins obviously varied hugely, but 150-300 to a pound would be much more common.)

However, fitting in a bag or backpack, and not tearing through it when lifted are two different things.

For instance, if we take the AD&D large sack (volume of 4 cubic feet) and fill it with coins (let's estimate 25% waste space), it'll weigh 3600 pounds! (And require 180,000 gold pieces!) So a "sack full of gold" is actually going to look pretty dang modest.

The AD&D large sack can actually handle 30 lbs., which would be 1500 oversized D&D coins. That comes out to a pile 8.9 cm (3.5 inches) to a side if melted down, a bit bigger when you account for waste space. So you're going to have a lot of empty sack around a small pile of coins.

Since I'm on the math... my poker chips (which look like a good size for a huge fantasy coin) are 20 mm in radius and 3 mm thick. That's pi*20mm*20mm*3mm = 3769.91 mm^3 (3.76991 cm^3). Multiply by the density of gold (19.30 g/cm^3) and they'd weigh 72.76 g each. That's 0.16 pounds... ouch. That's 6 to a pound, not 50!

Working the other way, 0.02 lbs (50 to a pound) is 9.07 grams, and in gold that'd be a volume of 469.95 cubic mm. At a thickness of 2 mm, we'd get a radius of 8.65 mm... a diameter of 17.3 mm. That's 1/13 inch thick and 2/3 inch across. A US penny is 19.05 mm (0.75 inches) in diameter and 1.55 mm (0.061 inches) thick. So D&D gold pieces are the size of a US penny (but weigh a bit more than 3.5 times as much). Incidentally, the 1344 English gold florin was 7 grams, so slightly smaller than this, and it's AFAIK one of the larger historical coins.

Reality is really disappointing, huh? Makes you want to switch to a silver standard just to make hoards bigger... (And the coins almost twice as big!)

NB: Quite possible I made a mistake somewhere, please do check my math.

Yuven
2013-04-05, 01:35 AM
Well, the dragon hoards from now on must be made from copper coins xD
we cannot have a dragon sleeping on a measly carpet of gold...

Well this reminds me of one campaign when we got a chest full of platinum coins... and that chest was huge! About 160cm x 50cm x 80cm... I dont even want to know how much we were shipping around. granted it was the money that an order of inquisitors needed to pay a mage guild for checking out this brand new flying ship.

Rhynn
2013-04-05, 08:07 AM
Well this reminds me of one campaign when we got a chest full of platinum coins... and that chest was huge! About 160cm x 50cm x 80cm... I dont even want to know how much we were shipping around. granted it was the money that an order of inquisitors needed to pay a mage guild for checking out this brand new flying ship.

With a wild guesstimate of 25% waste space, that's 30,265.1 lbs. of platinum (probably way beyond what any chest could actually support), which comes out (at a 1:50 ratio) to 1,513,255 platinum pieces.

It's almost depressing, but really, coffers or small boxes full of coin is the only realistic option - can't have sacks or chests full of the stuff, much less floors covered in it knee-deep in a dragon's lair.

Of course, if you throw in some goblets, swords, etc. (any less dense and space-efficient loot) into your treasure chest, and the coins act as filler, you can definitely have a chest full of treasure.

And yes, any dragon's bed-hoard would be enough to make the coins involved completely worthless by their commonness. Draconic inflation! (Now, if you make you dragons considerably smaller, you could get away with beds of silver coins, maybe.)

Incidentally, during all human history, an estimated 171,300 tonnes of gold have been mined. That would come out to 8,875 cubic meters, or a cube of gold a bit less than 21 meters (about 68 feet) to a side. The typical depiction of Smaug's hoard probably has considerably more gold than that.

Vknight
2013-04-05, 08:21 AM
Ok, so I have been playing Dungeons and Dragons, and similar RPGs for some years now, but I have never seen any visual representations of how a given amount of gold looks like. For example, lets say you find 2000gp in a pile. How large would that pile be? Would it fit in a backpack? not that 2000gp would be an amount you would like to carry on your back, but that is besides the point. I really would like to get a good grip on how different amounts would look, and how one can practically move it. It might be a weird question, but it really has bugged me a while.

for example how much gold would this be?
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/dragons_hoard_72.jpg

It would be a lot of gold. Specifically 1 encounter with a smart theives worth

Slipperychicken
2013-04-05, 08:35 AM
Reality is really disappointing, huh? Makes you want to switch to a silver standard just to make hoards bigger... (And the coins almost twice as big!)


Dude, currency is supposed to be light, compact, and easy to carry.


If you want a heavy currency, start trading cows or something. Let your dragons sleep on big piles of cows so you can have the wacky sidequest of removing it all from the dungeon.

Lord Torath
2013-04-05, 08:37 AM
2000 gp? Well, let's do the math, shall we?

The Player's Handbook says that 50 coins weigh one pound. So... 2000 divided by 50 equals 40 pounds. If we convert that into grams (you'll see why in a second), the Internet tells me that is 18,143.7 grams.

Now, the density of gold is about 19.3 grams per cubic centimeter. So we take 18,143.7 divided by 19.3 and we get a volume of gold of approximately 940 cubic centimeters. That means that if you melted down all those coins and molded them into a solid cube, it would be just under 10 centimeters on each side (or about 3.85 inches on each side, if you prefer).

Obviously, if you left them as coins, the irregular shape would create air pockets that will cause the mass to occupy a larger amount of space, but my guess is it all would still fit in a mid-size sack.



If you'd like a different visual for it, compare them to poker chips. Most people could probably hold a hundred poker chips if they cupped both hands together. Multiply two handfuls by 20 and you got your 2,000.

Google says that the width of a poker chip is just above .13 inches or 3.4 millimeters. That means a stack of 100 chips will be slighter more than 13 inches tall. And we're talking about 20 such stacks, or a single precarious stack about 22 feet and 2 inches in height. I hope there isn't a breeze!
Taking this a bit further, you can determine that a gold piece has a volume of .47 cubic centimeters. If you assume a thickness of 2 mm, that gives an area of 2.35 square cm. Dividing by pi (3.14) and taking the square root gives you a radius of 0.86 cm or a diameter of 1.73 cm. A US dime is 1.79 cm, so your gold piece is just smaller than a dime (quite a bit smaller than your average poker chip) but about twice as thick. 2000 stacked up will be 4 meters or 13'-1 1/2" tall. Or about 80 rolls of dimes (50 per roll)

Edit: Fixed my math. Area of a circle is pi*r^2, not pi*d!:smallredface:

JustSomeGuy
2013-04-05, 08:40 AM
On a similar topic, how much modern money, either $ or £, could you fit in a standard briefcase?

Need_A_Life
2013-04-05, 08:44 AM
I have a bunch of old coins - not the valuable kind, just the kind that went out of circulation - that I've occasionally used for this sort of thing. I would say that I have ~10,000 coins and they fit in a small box in a drawer (incidentally, assuming they were still worth what they're marked with they'd be worth about 20USD combined). Now, these are small, thin coins, a lot smaller than D&D coins, but they've worked well as representations (especially since they're mostly copper, with a couple of silver or brass ones in-between).

If your country has a similar time of coin that is easy to get a hold of, I recommend their use. Once the

(not entirely relevant, but I've considered using spent shell casings for ammo counters for Western, military or zombie campaigns)

Slipperychicken
2013-04-05, 08:54 AM
On a similar topic, how much modern money, either $ or £, could you fit in a standard briefcase?

Usually about 1-2 million if you're using big bills like 50s or 100s. Of course, modern drug lords will often use rare artworks in place of money, since it's less suspicious. And if it's legit (let's face it, you put it in a suitcase. it's not legit), digital accounts are the way to go. Unless you're the US military, in which case you load up planes full of cash and dump them out into the desert.

Trekkin
2013-04-05, 09:02 AM
Is there any reason gold can't be alloyed with something lighter to make bulkier coins? Tumbaga, for example, still looks like gold, but it's not necessarily full of it.

Xuc Xac
2013-04-05, 10:59 AM
Is there any reason gold can't be alloyed with something lighter to make bulkier coins? Tumbaga, for example, still looks like gold, but it's not necessarily full of it.

Same reason one dollar bills aren't printed on 8.5"x14" legal paper. People want currency that's easy to move. When they want to show how much wealth they have, they spend it on flashy bling.

Deepbluediver
2013-04-05, 11:12 AM
This problem is one of the numerous reasons I disliked the magic-mart style setup. Even in a big city it doesn't seem reasonable to trundle through the street with 3 wagonloads of gold to buy your new suit or armor or weapon.

I always preferred it when the DM gave us distinct items, and if we wanted we could usually find an item of similar value to trade for. A few hundred to a few thousand gold is all you should even need to for most advanturing groups to live like kings in the D&D economy anyhow.

Jay R
2013-04-05, 11:26 AM
Is there any reason gold can't be alloyed with something lighter to make bulkier coins? Tumbaga, for example, still looks like gold, but it's not necessarily full of it.

It's called electrum, and electrum coins were worth half a gold piece in 2E.

And on the subject of editions, coins were ten to the pound in 2E, not 50.

Jeraa
2013-04-05, 11:27 AM
Is there any reason gold can't be alloyed with something lighter to make bulkier coins? Tumbaga, for example, still looks like gold, but it's not necessarily full of it.

Who says they aren't already? The 3.0 Players Handbook has a picture of a gold piece, with the note that it is actual size. Its 30mm across. Assuming its 3mm thick and solid gold, that coin would weigh about a quarter of a pound. If gold pieces are really that big, and yet are only 1/50th of a pound, then they would have to be an alloy. And one containing very little gold, at that. More like gold-plated.

TheThan
2013-04-05, 11:29 AM
if you want to enrage your players, introduce a realistic-ish monetary exchange system. when they cross the border from kingdom X to kingdom Y, their gold is not work as much because of the marking on it. They have to get it exchanged.

Suddenly they go from having a lot of gold, to not having as much. it'll drive them nuts. Naturally the system works both ways so when they go from kingdom Y, to Kingdom X they're still losing gold. does it make sense? nope but then maybe the kingdom's full of corrupt officials.

Deepbluediver
2013-04-05, 11:44 AM
Who says they aren't already? The 3.0 Players Handbook has a picture of a gold piece, with the note that it is actual size. Its 30mm across. Assuming its 3mm thick and solid gold, that coin would weigh about a quarter of a pound. If gold pieces are really that big, and yet are only 1/50th of a pound, then they would have to be an alloy. And one containing very little gold, at that. More like gold-plated.

If you visit a museum, you can see that historically, coins where more like the size of most modern coins, between dimes and quarters. D&D seems to have gotten suckered into the Hollywood notion that a coin needs to be more like a medallion.


if you want to enrage your players, introduce a realistic-ish monetary exchange system. when they cross the border from kingdom X to kingdom Y, their gold is not work as much because of the marking on it. They have to get it exchanged.

Suddenly they go from having a lot of gold, to not having as much. it'll drive them nuts. Naturally the system works both ways so when they go from kingdom Y, to Kingdom X they're still losing gold. does it make sense? nope but then maybe the kingdom's full of corrupt officials.

A commission on monetary exchanges is not uncommon, or definitely not illegal in most places. Just make sure that your players don't decided that it's safer and more lucrative to become currency speculators rather than dragon slayers. :)

Slipperychicken
2013-04-05, 11:50 AM
if you want to enrage your players, introduce a realistic-ish monetary exchange system. when they cross the border from kingdom X to kingdom Y, their gold is not work as much because of the marking on it. They have to get it exchanged.

Suddenly they go from having a lot of gold, to not having as much. it'll drive them nuts. Naturally the system works both ways so when they go from kingdom Y, to Kingdom X they're still losing gold. does it make sense? nope but then maybe the kingdom's full of corrupt officials.

This one DM I played with pulled that crap on us once. I left his game a few sessions later in a rage, and the group didn't last much longer. Last I heard, he's still trying to get a game together, a year after the fact.


Realistically, if there's enough commercial traffic between Kingdoms X and Y, merchants should accept both, albeit at modified prices to reflect the exchange rate.

Deepbluediver
2013-04-05, 11:58 AM
This one DM I played with pulled that crap on us once. I left his game a few sessions later in a rage, and the group didn't last much longer. Last I heard, he's still trying to get a game together a year later.

Alright, here's the issue. Monetary systems based on a metal with actual value (as opposed to paper money) are always worth something based on the weight or volume of the metal.

In otherwords, you should still be able to trade based on the weight of the metal, and in D&D I think that coinage is worth pretty much exactly the same as raw gold. You can't exactly declare that gold is worthless just because its got a different stamp on it, otherwise you are going to have an thriving black market spring up practically over night.


At least one ancient empire (roman, I think) got in trouble when it stamped its coins with a "value" worth less than the gold in it. People figured it out quick enough and simply shifted their barter accordingly.

You don't even need to go into antiquity for examples of this. Based on the weight and volume of the metals in it, a penny is worth something like 4 cents and a nickel is worth 7 or 8, I think. The US government had to pass a law to make destroying money illegal, just to prevent some one from demanding a million dollars in pennies and starting an "infinite money loop" :smalltongue:

There are investors who are stockpiling coins in preparation for the day the government stops minting pennies and just rounds everything off to 5 or 10 cent amounts, so they can melt down their metal stockpiles and cash in.

hamishspence
2013-04-05, 12:00 PM
If gold pieces are really that big, and yet are only 1/50th of a pound, then they would have to be an alloy. And one containing very little gold, at that. More like gold-plated.

Or pieces of gold foil (thick foil, but still foil).

Ravens_cry
2013-04-05, 12:15 PM
Or pieces of gold foil (thick foil, but still foil).
Wouldn't really hold up well, and having your money be prone to disintegration is only good if you can constantly produce more from a non-precious source, i.e. paper money.

Stray
2013-04-05, 12:18 PM
If you visit a museum, you can see that historically, coins where more like the size of most modern coins, between dimes and quarters. D&D seems to have gotten suckered into the Hollywood notion that a coin needs to be more like a medallion.


And those historical coins are also alloys, since coin made of pure gold would be too soft. And kings liked to cover their debts by manipulating alloy proportions of coins they were minting.

I tried to visualize wealth by level of a D&D character by spawning all the coins in Skyrim and it sadly crashed the thing around 3rd level.

MrLemon
2013-04-05, 12:25 PM
Who says they aren't already? The 3.0 Players Handbook has a picture of a gold piece, with the note that it is actual size. Its 30mm across. Assuming its 3mm thick and solid gold, that coin would weigh about a quarter of a pound. If gold pieces are really that big, and yet are only 1/50th of a pound, then they would have to be an alloy. And one containing very little gold, at that. More like gold-plated.

Since both Weight and Diameter of the piece are given, it can't be 3mm thick ;)

So, 1 GP is 1/50 lbs. = 9.07g, which, using its density of 19.30 g/cm³ yields a volume of 470mm³, divided by the circular cross-section (r=15mm), means the piece is 0,66mm thick.

So, now I'm fired up mathematically!
Let's cram that gold into a box!
Assuming optimal packaging, which in case of cylindrical coins, means a layer-like arrangement, where each coin touches 6 other coins in the same layer (except at the edges of the layer).

By connecting the centers of three coins in a equilateral triangle, and calculating the area of said triangle we can deduce the "real" volume per coin (the triangle contains a sixth of the three coins each, or 1/2 coin total). Since the coins touch, the side-length is 30mm, resulting in an area per gold piece of about 2*390mm²=780mm², which means only about 10% of the volume in the Chest is air!

Ignoring the anomalies at the edges of the box, a 30x20x20cm chest (toaster-size :smallwink:) can contain (300x200x200)/(780*0.66) = 23.300 Gold Pieces.

Addendum 1:
Close packed, sensibly thick gold pieces (i.e. the aforementioned 3mm), come in packs of about 5000gp/toaster.

Addendum 2:
Assuming a more liberal spacing (let's say 30% air) AND sensibly thick gold pieces, it's about 4000gp/toaster

hamishspence
2013-04-05, 12:29 PM
Wouldn't really hold up well, and having your money be prone to disintegration is only good if you can constantly produce more from a non-precious source, i.e. paper money.

I'm not sure if a piece of gold 0.66 mm thick would disintegrate all that much.

Ravens_cry
2013-04-05, 12:45 PM
I'm not sure if a piece of gold 0.66 mm thick would disintegrate all that much.
I am willing to bet it would. Pure gold is soft stuff.
Normal use would have it in pieces in far too short a time for precious metals.

Lord Torath
2013-04-05, 12:46 PM
And on the subject of editions, coins were ten to the pound in 2E, not 50. Really? I know 1st Edition was 10 to the pound, as well as BECMI, but pg 134 of the 1st Printing 2E DMG says 50 coins per pound.

The Dark Sun Boxed set went with the 50 coins per pound (pg 74 of the Dark Sun Rules Book)

hamishspence
2013-04-05, 12:49 PM
I am willing to bet it would. Pure gold is soft stuff.
Normal use would have it in pieces in far too short a time for precious metals.

In Magic of Faerun, gold can be hardened enough to make weapons.

Maybe D&D gold coins are hardened the same way after minting?

Ravens_cry
2013-04-05, 12:56 PM
In Magic of Faerun, gold can be hardened enough to make weapons.

Maybe D&D gold coins are hardened the same way after minting?
Perhaps, but alloying sounds simpler.

hamishspence
2013-04-05, 01:03 PM
It does raise the problem of a 1 lb pure gold bar being worth exactly 50 gp though.

razark
2013-04-05, 01:04 PM
Perhaps, but alloying sounds simpler.
Prospecting for the alloying metal, digging a mine, refining ore into metal, melting multiple metals, mixing an alloy, stamping design into hard metal.

Vs.

Stamp design on soft gold, tell wizard to harden it.

Lord Torath
2013-04-05, 01:08 PM
Prospecting for the alloying metal, digging a mine, refining ore into metal, melting multiple metals, mixing an alloy, stamping design into hard metal.

Vs.

Stamp design on soft gold, tell wizard to harden it.
This step may be much harder to accomplish on the scale required for minting coins than the 'natural' process. Depending on the presense of magic in your campaign.

Also, you should note that as the power of a given wizard increases, he drops off the other end of the "biddable-ness" scale.

Ravens_cry
2013-04-05, 01:12 PM
It does raise the problem of a 1 lb pure gold bar being worth exactly 50 gp though.
Well, the value in the coin is in the gold, debasing it with cheaper metals is for sturdiness. I don't see the problem. It's not even a bar. It's a cube a little under 1 1/2 cubic inches.

Prospecting for the alloying metal, digging a mine, refining ore into metal, melting multiple metals, mixing an alloy, stamping design into hard metal.

Vs.

Stamp design on soft gold, tell wizard to harden it.
Well, you have the cost of having a wizard cast harden. That's not cheap. It also means finding a wizard who can cast harden. In many settings, that's not common. They also have to agree to do frankly drudge work like casting harden over and over.
If your society is technological enough to have gold coins as a unit of currency, you are almost certainly smelting other metals anyway.

Beleriphon
2013-04-05, 01:26 PM
On a similar topic, how much modern money, either $ or £, could you fit in a standard briefcase?

In US Dollars assuming one hundred dollar bills, a little better than one two-hundred thousand and a half million dollars. Most stacks of bills are one hundred thick so with a single stack of hundreds you can get ten thousand thousand dollars. You can layer into most brief cases close to twenty stacks (some times fifty depending on how new the bills are). The US stopped producing one thousand dollar bills for this very reason, that way you can't transport in excess of a million dollars in cash that easily any more.

Scow2
2013-04-05, 01:35 PM
This problem is one of the numerous reasons I disliked the magic-mart style setup. Even in a big city it doesn't seem reasonable to trundle through the street with 3 wagonloads of gold to buy your new suit or armor or weapon.
It's not 3 big wagonloads. If it costs less than 1000000 GP, it's not even a treasure chest.

It might be a box.

Deepbluediver
2013-04-05, 01:49 PM
It's not 3 big wagonloads. If it costs less than 1000000 GP, it's not even a treasure chest.

It might be a box.

Are you certain? Going by pure weight if you simply had huge gold brick then you might be correct, but we've already established that the dimensions don't seem to add up for a pure gold coin of the given weight.

If we assume that they are approximately the size displayed, then they are pretty big. I'm thinking back to the poker-chip example on the first page, and that the coins are probably not carefully stacked in a an optimal space-saving arrangment.

It's less this:
http://www.gd-wholesale.com/userimg/43/3589i3/poker-chip-case-600-set-cs106-320.jpg
and more like this:
http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/82116/82116,1172188930,2/stock-photo-pile-of-poker-chips-2739969.jpg

Jeraa
2013-04-05, 02:20 PM
According to the Draconomicon, page 278:


A typical coin measures slightly more than an inch in diameter and is approximately one-tenth of an inch thick. A cubic foot (a volume 1 foot on each side) holds around 12,000 loosely stacked coins.

Of course, coins aren’t usually stacked in cubic feet— they’re scattered about in piles. A cubic foot of coins fills an area roughly 5 feet on a side to a depth of about 1/2 inch, or 3 feet on a side to a depth of 1 inch or so.

So, just piled up, 12,000 coins would occupy a space roughly 3 feet x 3 feet, to a depth of 1 inch.

A single wagon can hold (According to the 3.0 Players Handbook) 2000 pounds. Thats 100,000 coins. Thats roughly a pile 3 feet wide, 3 feet long, and 8 inches high.

Also according to the 3.0 PHB, a single chest holds 2 cubic feet. Thats 24000gp. If just tossed in there, call it 20,000gp. Of course, that is also 400 pounds.

Determining how much gold a container (or wagon) can hold wouldn't depend on volume, but the weight of the gold.

hamishspence
2013-04-05, 02:26 PM
A coin with very deep intaglio designs on it would weigh less than a plain unmarked disc.

Still, I'm not sure how you could get it to weigh as little as 1/50 lb without alloying.

Slipperychicken
2013-04-05, 02:30 PM
A coin with very deep intaglio designs on it would weigh less than a plain unmarked disc.

Still, I'm not sure how you could get it to weigh as little as 1/50 lb without alloying.

It's pretty obvious that the designers made these measurements entirely for the convenience of players, rather than as an attempt at historical accuracy. Kind of like how a 5x5ft space somehow only accommodates one person in combat, even though many combat situations would put 3 or more in that much space.

hamishspence
2013-04-05, 02:31 PM
Indeed. It's a fantasy world- maybe certain metals weigh a lot less?

Slipperychicken
2013-04-05, 02:34 PM
Indeed. It's a fantasy world- maybe certain metals weigh a lot less?

It probably works on the same principle (i.e. A Wizard Did It) which allows Giants to walk around with their proportions without having their bones crushed by their own mass.

hamishspence
2013-04-05, 02:44 PM
Indeed. Bipedal beings as big as giants did exist (tyrannosaurs) but they were built rather differently.

Ravens_cry
2013-04-05, 02:49 PM
A coin with very deep intaglio designs on it would weigh less than a plain unmarked disc.

Still, I'm not sure how you could get it to weigh as little as 1/50 lb without alloying.
That's what debasing is.:smallconfused:You only need to add 1/50th of a pound of gold to each coin (Well, a bit less taking into account the cost of whatever metal you alloy it with.) for 50 coins to be worth the same as one pound of gold.

Ashtagon
2013-04-05, 03:30 PM
Realistically, if there's enough commercial traffic between Kingdoms X and Y, merchants should accept both, albeit at modified prices to reflect the exchange rate.

Kind of like how Korean won are routinely accepted across Europe?

Khedrac
2013-04-05, 03:31 PM
OK - Imagine Magazine (from TSR UK) addressed this back in the days of 1st Ed - the actual question was how many in a 1 foot cube.

At 10 coins to the 1lb the old gp came out to a similar size to the then UK 50 pence piece - about an inch across.
The 1 foot cube is then 12 by 12 stacks of 100 coins each - 14,400 gp and weighed 3/4 of a ton (or was it tonne?) - over 1,000 stone!
The 3rd Ed coins weigh 1/5th as much at 50 to the pound but they probably have about the same density so in neat stacks the 1' cube is now 72,000gp (or thereabouts). Hoards dragons can sleep on are literally unimaginable amounts of money - but probably impossible to transport.

Something to think about with gold, the standard* estimate for the total gold mined in all of history is about a 60' cube.
* Sources differ, some reckon it is a lot more than this, but 60' is the usual figure quoted.

Slipperychicken
2013-04-05, 03:49 PM
Kind of like how Korean won are routinely accepted across Europe?

More like how Spanish Silver was routinely accepted in China.

Ashtagon
2013-04-05, 03:54 PM
More like how Spanish Silver was routinely accepted in China.

That was accepted as trade metal (the silver content), not as coinage (Spanish reales or whatever they called their coins). Different issue entirely.

Talakeal
2013-04-05, 05:23 PM
I was just thinking about making a similar post.

One problem I have is that fantastic amounts of gold are just plain impractical. You can adjust the value of gold coins by making gold more common, or have the coins be plated or alloyed gold. The problem then becomes convenience. Actually carrying around a hundred thousand good coins is impossible, and counting them would take forever, even with scales to help.

In real life fabulously wealthy individuals would fill entire wagon trains or ship holds with currency when they travelled, but this is hardly practical for pcs, especially in a points of light style world.

So, this means you can never have the stereotypical dragons hoard.

In my campaign world I have gold coins about the size of a British pound, which comes out to about one ounce give or take, as the standard weight unity. For larger purchases the characters use gold bricks or bars, and for really big purchases I use orichalcum, which is worth 1000 times as much as gold.

Not quite as convenient as real life or breath taking as most fantasy art, but I think it strikes a workable balance.

Jay R
2013-04-05, 06:27 PM
Really? I know 1st Edition was 10 to the pound, as well as BECMI, but pg 134 of the 1st Printing 2E DMG says 50 coins per pound.

You're right - it was 1E.

Waspinator
2013-04-05, 06:31 PM
Personally, I would play with the density and hardness of gold simply to make hoards more impressive. We're already talking about magic fantasy worlds, we can just decide that gold is a lot harder and less dense than it is in real life. If we want to avoid the transport issue, there's always the solution that came up in another gold thread: banks. If you live in a world where there are people who own thousands of pounds of gold, you have to assume that there would be a demand for bank vaults. Heck, I'm pretty sure those are an official part of the Eberron setting, complete with a checking system.

Beleriphon
2013-04-05, 06:36 PM
In my campaign world I have gold coins about the size of a British pound, which comes out to about one ounce give or take, as the standard weight unity. For larger purchases the characters use gold bricks or bars, and for really big purchases I use orichalcum, which is worth 1000 times as much as gold.

It think this was the reason for 4E to include Astral Diamonds which were tiny, but worthy tens of thousands of gold pieces. So you could have a few dozen astral diamonds be worth more than all of the gold on a prime world.

Slipperychicken
2013-04-05, 07:11 PM
I was just thinking about making a similar post.

One problem I have is that fantastic amounts of gold are just plain impractical. You can adjust the value of gold coins by making gold more common, or have the coins be plated or alloyed gold. The problem then becomes convenience. Actually carrying around a hundred thousand good coins is impossible, and counting them would take forever, even with scales to help.

In real life fabulously wealthy individuals would fill entire wagon trains or ship holds with currency when they travelled, but this is hardly practical for pcs, especially in a points of light style world.

So, this means you can never have the stereotypical dragons hoard.

In my campaign world I have gold coins about the size of a British pound, which comes out to about one ounce give or take, as the standard weight unity. For larger purchases the characters use gold bricks or bars, and for really big purchases I use orichalcum, which is worth 1000 times as much as gold.

Not quite as convenient as real life or breath taking as most fantasy art, but I think it strikes a workable balance.

One million gold (more than total 20th level WBL) is only 2,000 pounds in platinum coins.

It's called a portable hole. Get one.

Talakeal
2013-04-05, 07:31 PM
One million gold (more than total 20th level WBL) is only 2,000 pounds in platinum coins.

It's called a portable hole. Get one.

Maybe in standard D&D, but in my campaign world platinum does not have the ridiculous 10x multiplier. IRL platinum is only slightly rarer and more valuable than gold, and at many points in history (including the present iirc) actually worth less than gold.

In addition, I run a low magic world, and a typical portable hole would be a major magic item and not something most PCs would invest in.

In a high magic world I imagine it would be easier to simply write a check in either case.


Besides, I wasn't talking about current D&D costs. I was talking about a world where gold was common and cheap enough to justify the gigantic hoards which colossal dragons can sleep upon, which would take more than a level 20 character's full WBL to afford enough portable holes to transport.

Waspinator
2013-04-05, 07:32 PM
If you accept that the spell Shrink Item will shrink the contents of a container along with the container itself, you can solve a lot of storage issues.

Exediron
2013-04-05, 11:53 PM
I tried to visualize wealth by level of a D&D character by spawning all the coins in Skyrim and it sadly crashed the thing around 3rd level.

I tried that too, but I ran out of available memory and crashed somewhere around 3000 (I was dropping it in batches of 500, so hard to be sure). If only I could get Skyrim to acknowledge more than 2GB of memory... You can get as much memory as you want in Minecraft, so why not a big fancy game like Skyrim where you'd actually want more? :smallannoyed:

Ares B
2013-04-06, 12:03 AM
This discussion about foreign coinages and alloys used in them reminds me of this scene (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRsk17UouEw&t=6m50s) in the Colour of Magic tv movie. :smallwink:

JustSomeGuy
2013-04-06, 12:14 PM
In addition, I run a low magic world, and a typical portable hole would be a major magic item and not something most PCs would invest in.

which would take more than a level 20 character's full WBL to afford enough portable holes to transport.

How about portable holes as transportable 'dragon's hoard level' currency?

Talakeal
2013-04-06, 12:26 PM
How about portable holes as transportable 'dragon's hoard level' currency?

Maybe in a very high magic campaign, but for most "old school" DMs the idea of magic items having fixed prices, let alone becoming a commodity, is far sillier than coins of any weight; except maybe the Altarian Mega Dollar (sp?).

Also, I imagine if portable holes did become common enough to use as a form of currency it would cause weird supply issues with the cat's breath and phase spider silk used to manufacture them, to say nothing of the XP of high level casters who can make them.

Drelua
2013-04-07, 10:49 AM
What if you had coins made out of extremely rare metals, like adamantine? That could help with the massive amount of coins. Well, except for the fact that I have absolutely no idea how much adamantine is worth by the pound...

Rhynn
2013-04-07, 12:57 PM
I was just thinking about making a similar post.

One problem I have is that fantastic amounts of gold are just plain impractical. You can adjust the value of gold coins by making gold more common, or have the coins be plated or alloyed gold. The problem then becomes convenience. Actually carrying around a hundred thousand good coins is impossible, and counting them would take forever, even with scales to help.

In real life fabulously wealthy individuals would fill entire wagon trains or ship holds with currency when they travelled, but this is hardly practical for pcs, especially in a points of light style world.

So, this means you can never have the stereotypical dragons hoard.

In my campaign world I have gold coins about the size of a British pound, which comes out to about one ounce give or take, as the standard weight unity. For larger purchases the characters use gold bricks or bars, and for really big purchases I use orichalcum, which is worth 1000 times as much as gold.

Not quite as convenient as real life or breath taking as most fantasy art, but I think it strikes a workable balance.

1. Gemstones. Why muck about with ridiculous ideas like adamantine coins or astral diamonds when you can fit an arbitrarily high amount of gp in an item smaller than your thumb? *
2. Letters of credit from merchant houses or banks. Houses like the Medicis and Fuggers go back to the 14th century. Merchants aren't going to want to carry around thousands of gp in coinage - that's asking to be stolen from or robbed. A letter of credit that's no good to a random thief is preferrable by far.
3. IMO getting the hoard out of the dragon's lair is supposed to be part of the adventure - you're going to have to get wagons, drovers, etc. (Except, of course, that the hoard isn't that big, so maybe a cart or two, or a wagon...)

* Since it fits the thread: gemstones the size of fists, etc., would be worth way, way, way too much. We're not talking 5,000 gp - that's a gemstone that fits on your pinky nail. We're talking millions. (Incidentally, Ruins of the Undermountain has a 200,000 gp emerald, although IMO it is described way too large - the size of a man's head. No way. It's only worth 40 regular emeralds, so it would probably be the size of 40 regular emeralds or smaller - so maybe the size of a baby's fist.) Another beloved treasure busted by reality.

Slipperychicken
2013-04-07, 01:11 PM
What if you had coins made out of extremely rare metals, like adamantine? That could help with the massive amount of coins. Well, except for the fact that I have absolutely no idea how much adamantine is worth by the pound...

One of the books like Draconomicon puts it at 500/lb.

obryn
2013-04-07, 01:14 PM
I dunno, I still like the 10 coins/lb standard of AD&D 1e. :) You just have to remember that most of the populace is not using this as their currency, and it's fine.

I'm running Dark Sun right now, and that's where I'm setting it, because even if it weighs 5x as much as a "standard" gold coin, it's worth 100x as much. (I'm basically using 2e-style Dark Sun currency, fwiw.)

-O

Waspinator
2013-04-07, 01:25 PM
Here's a somewhat silly idea I came up with thinking about dragon hoards and gold storage issues: banks run by metallic dragons. They would probably gladly guard people's gold in exchange for being able to borrow it to make their bed bigger.

Rhynn
2013-04-07, 03:05 PM
I dunno, I still like the 10 coins/lb standard of AD&D 1e. :) You just have to remember that most of the populace is not using this as their currency, and it's fine.

That basically means poker-chip sized gold coins (see earlier calculations, poker chip would come out to about 1/6th of a pound, drop it to 1/10th for etchings, etc.). Nothing wrong with it, it's just historically slightly ridiculous (but probably not entirely without precedent). It does mean that gold is worth less per pound, though. (Or that the coins are assumed to be more debased on average).


Here's a somewhat silly idea I came up with thinking about dragon hoards and gold storage issues: banks run by metallic dragons. They would probably gladly guard people's gold in exchange for being able to borrow it to make their bed bigger.

:smalleek:

I'm not sure I'd deposit anything in a bank that's likely to bite me when I go to make a withdrawal.

Also, sleeping on coins doesn't really put them to work, which is usually the actual idea behind a bank... (Although I suppose "extended safe deposit for a fee" is also workable, but that's going to cut down on your custom, because very few people will have so much coin lying around doing nothing that they'd like to pay someone to look after it.)

Ravens_cry
2013-04-07, 05:08 PM
That basically means poker-chip sized gold coins (see earlier calculations, poker chip would come out to about 1/6th of a pound, drop it to 1/10th for etchings, etc.). Nothing wrong with it, it's just historically slightly ridiculous (but probably not entirely without precedent). It does mean that gold is worth less per pound, though. (Or that the coins are assumed to be more debased on average).



:smalleek:

I'm not sure I'd deposit anything in a bank that's likely to bite me when I go to make a withdrawal.

Well, hence the creation of paper money, backed by the Dragon's hoard.

Lord Torath
2013-04-07, 06:08 PM
I dunno, I still like the 10 coins/lb standard of AD&D 1e. :) You just have to remember that most of the populace is not using this as their currency, and it's fine.

I'm running Dark Sun right now, and that's where I'm setting it, because even if it weighs 5x as much as a "standard" gold coin, it's worth 100x as much. (I'm basically using 2e-style Dark Sun currency, fwiw.)

-O
So 50 coins per pound?
Ceramic, silver, and gold pieces weigh in at 50 to the pound. Five hundred bits weight 1 pound

Waspinator
2013-04-07, 06:38 PM
Well, hence the creation of paper money, backed by the Dragon's hoard.

That could work. You just need to make sure the dragon is trustworthy, so that people can safely exchange their gold for bills and vice-versa. But as far as backing a currency goes, you're probably not going to find something more reliable and long-term than a gold or silver wyrm.

And those are lawful good usually, so if it agrees to act as a bank presumably you wouldn't get maimed for withdrawals.

Scow2
2013-04-07, 09:01 PM
* Since it fits the thread: gemstones the size of fists, etc., would be worth way, way, way too much. We're not talking 5,000 gp - that's a gemstone that fits on your pinky nail. We're talking millions. (Incidentally, Ruins of the Undermountain has a 200,000 gp emerald, although IMO it is described way too large - the size of a man's head. No way. It's only worth 40 regular emeralds, so it would probably be the size of 40 regular emeralds or smaller - so maybe the size of a baby's fist.) Another beloved treasure busted by reality.Take your "reality" and stuff it somewhere else.

Where are you getting your Gemstone-size-to-Gold-Piece conversion ratio? After all, it's pretty much spelled out that two tons of gold ($60,000,000 in today's currency) can net you an emerald the size of your head. How do you know that a 'normal' emerald in D&D isn't a block comfortably held in one's palm, given how large jewels are usually portrayed in art?

Beleriphon
2013-04-07, 10:29 PM
Take your "reality" and stuff it somewhere else.

Where are you getting your Gemstone-size-to-Gold-Piece conversion ratio? After all, it's pretty much spelled out that two tons of gold ($60,000,000 in today's currency) can net you an emerald the size of your head. How do you know that a 'normal' emerald in D&D isn't a block comfortably held in one's palm, given how large jewels are usually portrayed in art?

This, especially given that gemstones more than anything are valued not just on size but freedom from internal defects. A small flawless diamond is going to be worth more than a large one fully of inclusions and a weird colour. The same holds true for emeralds and rubies.

Rhynn
2013-04-07, 11:21 PM
Take your "reality" and stuff it somewhere else.

Aggressive, any? Why are you taking this so personally?


Where are you getting your Gemstone-size-to-Gold-Piece conversion ratio? After all, it's pretty much spelled out that two tons of gold ($60,000,000 in today's currency) can net you an emerald the size of your head. How do you know that a 'normal' emerald in D&D isn't a block comfortably held in one's palm, given how large jewels are usually portrayed in art?

By the same principle that leads me to assume that the density of gold is 19.30 g/cm^3. If there's no specific reason to think otherwise, reality is assumed to prevail. In this specific example, there are four coffers; one contains the "head-sized" emerald, while the others each contain 444 regular gemstones (each worth 5,000 gp). It seems unlikely that 444 fist-sized or palm-sized gemstones would fit in a "coffer."

(At least RotU is a 2E module - if it were 1E, the gem would be worth 5 short tons of gold!)

For comparison, the Star of Africa (Cullinan I) is a diamond of 530.2 carats, fits in the palm of one's hand, and is worth circa $40,000,000 (hard to say since it's such an outlier, diamond prices are artificial, and it's not exactly been for sale). Seems like a decent point of comparison - so, maybe this "lost gem" of Dumathoin is even the size of a small fist.

Incidentally, the module goes to great lengths about the difficulties in selling this gem, but doesn't at all address the difficulties of moving the 444 * 3 * 5000 = 6,660,000 gp worth of gemstones found with it. (Fortunately, you can only level up one level at a time in AD&D, so bringing back this treasure trove is a single automatic level-up for the entire party, and no more than that.)

razark
2013-04-08, 08:10 AM
Take your "reality" and stuff it somewhere else.
Slightly aggressive, but yeah. Argument about the size/weight/portability of coins/gems in a world where dragons and elves and magic are accepted as existing... reality is pretty much moot here.

Personally, I just write it off to the fact that it's an arbitrary system designed to allow a plot to occur. The fact that the coins don't match up with the real world is one of the lesser problems in comparing the system to reality.

obryn
2013-04-08, 08:29 AM
That basically means poker-chip sized gold coins (see earlier calculations, poker chip would come out to about 1/6th of a pound, drop it to 1/10th for etchings, etc.). Nothing wrong with it, it's just historically slightly ridiculous (but probably not entirely without precedent). It does mean that gold is worth less per pound, though. (Or that the coins are assumed to be more debased on average).
As I mentioned, though, it's Dark Sun and Gold is already incredibly valuable. :) I am okay with it being not immensely portable; each one is worth 100x the standard unit of value.

The number of times it's come up is zero, though, except for flavor narration.


So 50 coins per pound?
Holy cow, man - could you tone it down a bit? I am really confused by how aggressive this thread is getting.

I was talking the currency valuation, not the weight, as you can see. For the weight, I'm using 1e's numbers because I like them, aesthetically, and it's not like my players have oodles of gold, because Athas.

-O

Eldan
2013-04-08, 08:48 AM
Kind of like how Korean won are routinely accepted across Europe?

Euroes are accepted in many places even in those European countries where they aren't official currency. And I've been to a good few countries were people preferred American Dollars over their own money.

Talakeal
2013-04-08, 12:24 PM
Slightly aggressive, but yeah. Argument about the size/weight/portability of coins/gems in a world where dragons and elves and magic are accepted as existing... reality is pretty much moot here.

Personally, I just write it off to the fact that it's an arbitrary system designed to allow a plot to occur. The fact that the coins don't match up with the real world is one of the lesser problems in comparing the system to reality.

A big part of suspension of disbelief is not changing accepted fundamentals of reality. The DMG states that unless an exception is given stuff should work like the real world. If you are going to change the properties of gold the game should either give a reason or make it not gold.

Lord Torath
2013-04-08, 12:34 PM
Holy cow, man - could you tone it down a bit? I am really confused by how aggressive this thread is getting.

I was talking the currency valuation, not the weight, as you can see. For the weight, I'm using 1e's numbers because I like them, aesthetically, and it's not like my players have oodles of gold, because Athas.
-OYou must do it the way I say, because I am right, and you are wrong! And I can prove it!
(Purple Dark Orchid is the color we use for dangerously delusional egomaniacs, right? :smallwink: )

My apologies. It's certainly your campaign, and however you'd like to do it is fine. You certainly don't need my approval. :smallredface:

We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of what a pile of 2000 coins looks like.

I seem to remember that the Rules Cyclopedia said a coin was roughly a double-thickness US quarter. (10 to the pound, by the way)

Deepbluediver
2013-04-08, 01:39 PM
What if you had coins made out of extremely rare metals, like adamantine? That could help with the massive amount of coins. Well, except for the fact that I have absolutely no idea how much adamantine is worth by the pound...

Adamantine is pretty valuable; DM's have to be careful about how they build the dungeons, otherwise the party can make a pretty healthy living prying adamantine doors off their hinges and selling them for scrap. :smallbiggrin:

Coins made of such would also be of limited value to anyone except adventurers, since it's effectively like trying to pay for things with a $10,000 bill. Real currency was printed like this, but it was mostly just used for bank transfers in the era before electronic processing.



We now return you to your regularly scheduled discussion of what a pile of 2000 coins looks like.

We should get a Kickstarter project going- advance the sum of all human knowledge: get 1000 people to each pledge a dollar, convert it all into half-dollar coins (the largest readily available coin I know of). Take a picture, then donate the proceeds to charity.

Rhynn
2013-04-08, 02:15 PM
As I mentioned, though, it's Dark Sun and Gold is already incredibly valuable. :) I am okay with it being not immensely portable; each one is worth 100x the standard unit of value.

Oh, duh.

Out of curiosity, are you giving 1 XP per 1 GP (actual gold piece or equivalent in treasure) or 1 XP per 1 CP of treasure value? And are you increasing the value of gemstones? I've been trying to decide on these issues for my own Dark Sun campaign. I sort of like the idea of restricting it to actual GP (to emphasize the "you get XP for recovering lost treasure and returning it to civilization), but that would mean either reducing the amount of XP gained hugely or gigantic inflation (in a setting where money will matter even though it can't buy you magic items; it can still arm and feed hundreds or thousands of warriors and construct fortifications)...


A big part of suspension of disbelief is not changing accepted fundamentals of reality. The DMG states that unless an exception is given stuff should work like the real world. If you are going to change the properties of gold the game should either give a reason or make it not gold.

Exactly. Suspension of disbelief and verisimilitude are pretty much assumed in D&D, to some degree. Sure, there's dragons, but you still need to breathe air.

(Some games, of course, cheerfully do away with this, like some people's versions of Glorantha - e.g., the sun is always directly overhead at midday no matter where you are in the world, etc., but these are explicit and intentional divergences with reasons within the world - e.g., the distance to the Sky is infinite and metaphysical.)


Adamantine is pretty valuable; DM's have to be careful about how they build the dungeons, otherwise the party can make a pretty healthy living prying adamantine doors off their hinges and selling them for scrap. :smallbiggrin:

I think every DM makes this mistake exactly once, and with the exact same results.

Incidentally, the DL1 module (Dragons of Despair), has IIRC two sets of solid gold double doors. However, in Krynn, gold is worth less than copper... (The steel-based system is stupid, and Krynn is never ever depicted as iron/steel-poor, but what're you gonna do. Also, technically, the relative values of coins and metals actually vary hugely be location... completely unnecessary complexity really.)


We should get a Kickstarter project going- advance the sum of all human knowledge: get 1000 people to each pledge a dollar, convert it all into half-dollar coins (the largest readily available coin I know of). Take a picture, then donate the proceeds to charity.

Just use chocolate coins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chocolate_coins). :smallcool:

Talakeal
2013-04-08, 02:46 PM
One lesson GMing Dragonlance taught me, NEVER use metals that have both an intrinsic and extrinsic value at the same time. That way lies madness (and PCs looting everything that isn't nailed down, everything that is nailed down, and the nails for good measure).

Deepbluediver
2013-04-08, 02:59 PM
Just use chocolate coins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chocolate_coins). :smallcool:

This (http://www.orientaltrading.com/chocolate-gold-coins-a2-_K1410-12-1.fltr?Ntt=chocolate+coin) is the best deal I've found so far, and it would still require several hundred dollars worth. Plus, it'll probably end with me having diabetes instead of a nice tax-deduction, but if anyone has more disposable income than they know what to do with, be my guest. :smalltongue:


One lesson GMing Dragonlance taught me, NEVER use metals that have both an intrinsic and extrinsic value at the same time. That way lies madness (and PCs looting everything that isn't nailed down, everything that is nailed down, and the nails for good measure).

The solution to this is to make adamantine and mithril armor and weapons (or whatever material you're using) expensive because the material is difficult to work with, requiring either extra resources and/or special skill, and not because it's rare.

obryn
2013-04-08, 03:52 PM
Oh, duh.

Out of curiosity, are you giving 1 XP per 1 GP (actual gold piece or equivalent in treasure) or 1 XP per 1 CP of treasure value? And are you increasing the value of gemstones? I've been trying to decide on these issues for my own Dark Sun campaign. I sort of like the idea of restricting it to actual GP (to emphasize the "you get XP for recovering lost treasure and returning it to civilization), but that would mean either reducing the amount of XP gained hugely or gigantic inflation (in a setting where money will matter even though it can't buy you magic items; it can still arm and feed hundreds or thousands of warriors and construct fortifications)...
None of the above, because I'm running Dark Sun in 4e and I'm not using XP at all. :smallsmile:

When I run AD&D, I loooove the XP for GP rule; it's among the best reasons to run AD&D 1e, as far as I'm concerned. Other than potential bookkeeping issues, it's an incredible mechanic.

-O

Lord Torath
2013-04-08, 04:56 PM
The solution to this is to make adamantine and mithril armor and weapons (or whatever material you're using) expensive because the material is difficult to work with, requiring either extra resources and/or special skill, and not because it's rare.
I think the issue here is that a steel longsword costs 15 steel, but weighs 4 lbs - either 40 or 200 steel coins depending on how many coins per pound you use.

Rhynn
2013-04-09, 01:18 AM
None of the above, because I'm running Dark Sun in 4e and I'm not using XP at all. :smallsmile:

When I run AD&D, I loooove the XP for GP rule; it's among the best reasons to run AD&D 1e, as far as I'm concerned. Other than potential bookkeeping issues, it's an incredible mechanic.

-O

AD&D 2E still has the rule, but it's optional and buried in the (flat) prose that makes up 95% of the books. It's in the DMG, same page as the monster XP chart, just left of it, at the end of a paragraph, IIRC. The move toward "plots" and "encounters" is definitely the worst development of 2E compared to 1E, to me. I want free-wheeling exploration and dungeon-delving and players making their own stories, thank you very much...

But yeah, when the average dragon's hoard is worth twice as much XP as killing the dragon, your players are going to think very differently about the challenges they face - stealth, trickery, and clever roleplay become more useful than combat prowess at advancing the characters, and you don't need "story awards." The story was that a group of intrepid adventurers stole the monsters' treasure and laughed all the way to the bank. :smallbiggrin:


I think the issue here is that a steel longsword costs 15 steel, but weighs 4 lbs - either 40 or 200 steel coins depending on how many coins per pound you use.

Yeah, that about sums up the ridiculousness of the Dragonlance coin system. Nobody ever thought about it for one second before putting it in the book as a "cool idea."


This (http://www.orientaltrading.com/chocolate-gold-coins-a2-_K1410-12-1.fltr?Ntt=chocolate+coin) is the best deal I've found so far, and it would still require several hundred dollars worth. Plus, it'll probably end with me having diabetes instead of a nice tax-deduction, but if anyone has more disposable income than they know what to do with, be my guest. :smalltongue:

So the exchange rate is $1 = 5.714 CC. Chocolate coins are stronger than the South African rand (8.98 per USD)!

Sith_Happens
2013-04-09, 04:34 AM
You must do it the way I say, because I am right, and you are wrong! And I can prove it!
(Purple is the color we use for dangerously delusional egomaniacs, right? :smallwink: )

DarkOrchid (the one just below purple), actually.

In other news, OH G-D IT'S SPREADING.

obryn
2013-04-09, 08:25 AM
AD&D 2E still has the rule, but it's optional and buried in the (flat) prose that makes up 95% of the books. It's in the DMG, same page as the monster XP chart, just left of it, at the end of a paragraph, IIRC.
REALLY?! Wow, my world is shattered. I thought only Rogues did, in the kind of weird class-based XP bonus thingy.

-O

Jeraa
2013-04-09, 08:56 AM
REALLY?! Wow, my world is shattered. I thought only Rogues did, in the kind of weird class-based XP bonus thingy.

-O

As an optional rule, the DM could reward players 1 XP per gp of treasure. With the (also optional) individual class rewards, rogues could earn 2 xp per gp found.

So everyone could get XP from finding treasures, the rogue could just get more.

Asmayus
2013-04-09, 09:41 AM
Well, this is only slightly related, but I come across a representation of a trillion dollars in 100 dollar bills (as well as a billion, million, etc). See here:

http://www.pagetutor.com/trillion/index.html

Since the consensus seems to be you'd only need a small pile of coins to have several thousand gp in it, I thought it was kind of relevant - look at how small a million dollars is, physically.

just my 2gp (ba-dum-tish!)

Rhynn
2013-04-09, 11:42 AM
REALLY?! Wow, my world is shattered. I thought only Rogues did, in the kind of weird class-based XP bonus thingy.

-O

Yeah, I get the impression I'm the only person in the world that knows this, sometimes.

AD&D 2E DMG (revised), page 69 (last paragraph):
"As an option, the DM can award XP for the cast value of non-magical treasures. One XP can be given per gold piece found. However, overuse of this option can increase the tendency to give out too much treasure in the campaign."

Like much of the 2E DMG, it's stupid (the second sentence makes no sense at all, to me), and you no longer get XP for finding magic items (boo). There is an individual XP award for rogues, but that one is the real problem - 2 XP per gp value of treasure obtained! Depending on how you interpret this, rogues (already needing the least XP to advance) will have more or far more (if you give them XP for total treasure, rather than their share) XP than the other PCs. And if you only give XP for their share, they'll start stealing from the party because you're mechanically significantly incentivizing it.

The best thing to do in 2E is to ignore the individual XP awards and use XP-for-GP for everyone. You absolutely can't use both together, IMO.

It's still not as bad as the Council of Wyrms rules, where you get 1 XP per GP (IIRC; or maybe we just assumed that was a general rule and used it, way back when?), and you need a hoard of GP value equal to your XP to advance in "level" (age category)... so basically advancement is entirely based on treasure accumulated (nothing else matters, effectively) plus years lived.

Deepbluediver
2013-04-09, 12:37 PM
Well, this is only slightly related, but I come across a representation of a trillion dollars in 100 dollar bills (as well as a billion, million, etc). See here:

http://www.pagetutor.com/trillion/index.html

Since the consensus seems to be you'd only need a small pile of coins to have several thousand gp in it, I thought it was kind of relevant - look at how small a million dollars is, physically.

just my 2gp (ba-dum-tish!)

That's a nice graphic, but dollar bills and coins are not the same.

Here's what a mere 100 poker chips looks like:
http://www.thechiproom.com/product_images/s/739/10-20055__99002_zoom.jpg

And as I pointed out, thousands of coins are probably not arranged for optimal space-saving measurements.

I'm actually kind of interested in the program that the author of that other article uses; its apparently called Google Sketchup. If there is a free demo version, maybe I can find out what 1,000,000 (million) poker chips looks like. I'll have to investigate more when I'm on my home computer system.



The best thing to do in 2E is to ignore the individual XP awards and use XP-for-GP for everyone. You absolutely can't use both together, IMO.

You've still got issues with the bookkeeping and working out what amount of treasure it appropriate. I was actually really excited where I read about this version (http://www.paperspencils.com/2011/10/22/pathfinder-house-rule-simple-experience-points/), where you basically get 1 or 2 exp per encounter you succesfully complete (whatever you define "encounter" and "complete" to mean) and it takes 20 exp to level up, for every level.

Feddlefew
2013-04-09, 12:46 PM
DarkOrchid (the one just below purple), actually.

In other news, OH G-D IT'S SPREADING.

Remember to use comic sans if it's exceptionally reality-challenged! :smallwink:

puctheplayfull
2013-04-09, 01:23 PM
It's still not as bad as the Council of Wyrms rules, where you get 1 XP per GP (IIRC; or maybe we just assumed that was a general rule and used it, way back when?), and you need a hoard of GP value equal to your XP to advance in "level" (age category)... so basically advancement is entirely based on treasure accumulated (nothing else matters, effectively) plus years lived.

As I recall, in Council of Wyrms you actually needed to accumulate the XP through adventuring or other pursuits in addition to the horde and age, and I don't think they use the XP for gp option as that would make things too crazy to keep track of.

I will agree that ADnD did a lot of things backwards (it's still a classic and one of my favorites), but one thing they got right is not giving magical items a base value and suggesting a magical market of any kind. This only serves to trivialize treasure, and create PC's that constantly want custom items and shops with magical items ready made in every town.

Now, back to the original topic. I'm surprised no one has brought up Campaign Coins (http://www.campaigncoins.com/). They are mostly between dimes and quarters in size and come in multiple varieties. Its the easy way to get an idea of what a sack of 100-300 coins would feel like. It's not going to be exact to gold pieces, but gives you a good idea.

evildmguy
2013-04-09, 02:30 PM
I'm actually kind of interested in the program that the author of that other article uses; its apparently called Google Sketchup. If there is a free demo version, maybe I can find out what 1,000,000 (million) poker chips looks like. I'll have to investigate more thwn I'm on my home computer system.

I thought I recognized that guy! Seriously, he comes in the opening file in Sketchup.

Sketchup is free. In fact, I think only office/professional use costs. It's quite good and there are a LOT of buildings and other things already done in it that you can download them.

I used it for some maps years ago. Dark Sun, actually, after I saw someone else use it for that purpose.

http://dmgaming.pbworks.com/w/page/23127066/Dark%20Sun%20-%20Kalidnay%20-%20City%20Maps


Now, back to the original topic. I'm surprised no one has brought up Campaign Coins (http://www.campaigncoins.com/). They are mostly between dimes and quarters in size and come in multiple varieties. Its the easy way to get an idea of what a sack of 100-300 coins would feel like. It's not going to be exact to gold pieces, but gives you a good idea.

I own campaign coins and have used them from time to time in campaigns. I even added in beads for gems. They are a lot of fun and the players really enjoy getting them and counting them out. However, it gets old fast, because we aren't into those kinds of details (DND the Accounting) and so usually after they start getting more, they want to know the totals, not be handed a pile of coins with values that they have to count.

I personally wanted to use coins the whole time! (The sets come with coins stamped with a 1000 on them for higher amounts and there are even bars that can be worth more.) I thought it would be tedious but interesting to see how much they are carrying. I also thought about getting a coin pouch for them to hold them at the table! It did not go over well.

This thread is awesome! Loved the math analysis of it and how small it is.

I think people are leaving off the most interesting part of the quote of how much gold has ever been mined.


Estimates suggest that around 166,600 tonnes has been mined to the end of 2010. Of this, around 65% has been extracted since 1950.

That means that the idea of that much money in a hoard is really strange! However, it can also lead to some good ideas about how good some race (dwarves, gnomes?) are at extracting gold, perhaps with magic?

However, I thought that there was gold and gems on the (infinite) plane of earth, or the sub plane of minerals? So maybe there are gods/beings that replace a world's minerals for some reason? And also for some reason, they stopped going to Dark Sun?

It can get into details, and again that's not what my group likes (and I'm not down on those groups that do want these details!), so I have used ideas or "throw away lines" about this in game to explain a few things but that's about it.

Fun stuff!

edg

Rhynn
2013-04-09, 04:21 PM
You've still got issues with the bookkeeping and working out what amount of treasure it appropriate. I was actually really excited where I read about this version (http://www.paperspencils.com/2011/10/22/pathfinder-house-rule-simple-experience-points/), where you basically get 1 or 2 exp per encounter you succesfully complete (whatever you define "encounter" and "complete" to mean) and it takes 20 exp to level up, for every level.

What's the bookkeeping issue?

The appropriate amount of treasure to give out is "what the table says." Table 84, specifically.

For instance, the dragon example - I think the roughly 1:2 split is fine (1/3rd of the XP available is killing the dragon; 2/3rds is stealing its hoard).

Dealing with a lair of goblins (4d10 x 10 goblins, plus leaders) can net the PCs a total of 8,205 XP at the very most for killing the goblins. That's dinky XP for a task that would be way beyond the capabilities of PCs for whom that's a nice haul of XP (1st and 2nd level). However, when you add in the C treasure type, the task is now probably worth a few thousand more XP. Still not a lot for the trouble, but better - and the PCs could just steal the treasure instead, turning the task from a siege or enormous battle into an adventure.


As I recall, in Council of Wyrms you actually needed to accumulate the XP through adventuring or other pursuits in addition to the horde and age, and I don't think they use the XP for gp option as that would make things too crazy to keep track of.

That's quite possible - we weren't too keen about rules back when we played it.


I will agree that ADnD did a lot of things backwards (it's still a classic and one of my favorites), but one thing they got right is not giving magical items a base value and suggesting a magical market of any kind. This only serves to trivialize treasure, and create PC's that constantly want custom items and shops with magical items ready made in every town.

I assume you mean AD&D 2E, because AD&D 1E did indeed give magic items a GP value. The XP value (XP you got for finding the item and keeping it) was separately given. (The XP values in AD&D 2E are for creating the item, for which hardly any rules are given.)

Note that AD&D 1E only gives "G.P. Sale Value" - it's what the PCs can get selling the item, if they find a buyer. There is no shops selling magic (except, possibly, potions and low-end scrolls). Theoretically, the PCs might find other adventurers selling items, or a spellcaster selling one, but they're not going to be able to go out and buy what they want, or order them up.


However, I thought that there was gold and gems on the (infinite) plane of earth, or the sub plane of minerals? So maybe there are gods/beings that replace a world's minerals for some reason? And also for some reason, they stopped going to Dark Sun?

I think you're right about the EPoE - although there's conflicting information, since some creatures of Elemental Earth come to the Prime Material looking for metals and gems to eat. :smallconfused:

As for Athas (the world of Hard Fun-- er, I mean Dark Sun), that'd be... weird. Athas is specifically without gods (with the Astral connections to the Outer Planes severed or blocked to some degree; although fiends of all sorts seem to get through), but also explicitly connected to the Elemental (or Inner) Planes by way of the Ethereal. (The Sorcerer-Kings channel Elemental energies to grant their templars spells.) FWIW, there is still active mining (including the iron mines of Tyr) in Athas, but I imagine by now it's largely a problem of technology as much as previous extraction. Or maybe the elemental powers were offended by the Sorcerer-Kings' presumptions, said "they can sort out their own metal deposits," and the Sorcerer-Kings never did (because they had no idea they should, or they didn't care to?).

Geordnet
2013-04-09, 11:09 PM
Well, hence the creation of paper money, backed by the Dragon's hoard.
Heh, and of course the fact that you've got to get your withdrawal from a dragon would promote the notion of fiat currency. :smallbiggrin:

I have got to use this concept somehow...



However, the thing about the stereotypical picture of a dragon sleeping on a hoard is... In The Hobbit, (which I'm pretty sure is the progenitor of that stereotype) that was an utterly ridiculous amount of gold. It was all the combined treasure of the wealthiest kingdom in the world. Gathered by the skill of the dwarves and the power of one of the Seven. One-thirteenth share would have been enough to buy at least the whole Shire and everything in it. :smalltongue:

Waspinator
2013-04-10, 12:17 AM
Also, you probably won't get many counterfeiters when doing it would tick off the giant dragon.

TuggyNE
2013-04-10, 12:42 AM
Also, you probably won't get many counterfeiters when doing it would tick off the giant dragon.

Not counterfeiters of the dragon's issued currency, no. They wouldn't be happy being cheated that way.

Gold counterfeiters, though, probably wouldn't be much annoyance to it, except in a distant sort of way.

Rhynn
2013-04-10, 01:22 AM
Heh, and of course the fact that you've got to get your withdrawal from a dragon would promote the notion of fiat currency. :smallbiggrin:

Dragon-based currency? What a ludicrous idea!

Now, golem-based currency, on the other hand...

Waspinator
2013-04-10, 03:13 AM
The more I think about it, the more a whole legal and economic system run by dragons both makes sense and is completely hilarious. I mean, they live a long time, can be really smart, and are fond of money. Them being heavily involved in the world economy makes sense. Just don't mess with the dragon tax collectors.

evildmguy
2013-04-10, 07:54 AM
What's the bookkeeping issue?

The appropriate amount of treasure to give out is "what the table says." Table 84, specifically.

For instance, the dragon example - I think the roughly 1:2 split is fine (1/3rd of the XP available is killing the dragon; 2/3rds is stealing its hoard).

Dealing with a lair of goblins (4d10 x 10 goblins, plus leaders) can net the PCs a total of 8,205 XP at the very most for killing the goblins. That's dinky XP for a task that would be way beyond the capabilities of PCs for whom that's a nice haul of XP (1st and 2nd level). However, when you add in the C treasure type, the task is now probably worth a few thousand more XP. Still not a lot for the trouble, but better - and the PCs could just steal the treasure instead, turning the task from a siege or enormous battle into an adventure.

I really like this idea. However, I think it would have to be used very sparingly as an adventure. Actually, let me clarify.

In 2E, that's not an option. Only rogues can move silently, no one else has that "skill." And it seems that once they are heard, it's going to be a tough fight for first or second level.

In 3E, it's at least an option in that all character can attempt to move quietly. And if the fighters give up armor, maybe an okay chance to do so.

The problem is that the game mechanics work against this sort of plan. In having a pass/fail skill system, as soon as one PC fails, the alarm might be raised and then it becomes a completely different adventure! The other problem is that the more you have players roll, the more likely that a failure will happen, which increases the likelihood of it becoming fighting, which will be tough.

I'm not saying this doesn't allow for some excellent opportunities, both for story and role playing! I'm saying that the mechanics of DND aren't the best for this type, without everyone being a rogue and even then that just makes a failure worse with no fighters.

I do like the idea!



I think you're right about the EPoE - although there's conflicting information, since some creatures of Elemental Earth come to the Prime Material looking for metals and gems to eat. :smallconfused:

As for Athas (the world of Hard Fun-- er, I mean Dark Sun), that'd be... weird. Athas is specifically without gods (with the Astral connections to the Outer Planes severed or blocked to some degree; although fiends of all sorts seem to get through), but also explicitly connected to the Elemental (or Inner) Planes by way of the Ethereal. (The Sorcerer-Kings channel Elemental energies to grant their templars spells.) FWIW, there is still active mining (including the iron mines of Tyr) in Athas, but I imagine by now it's largely a problem of technology as much as previous extraction. Or maybe the elemental powers were offended by the Sorcerer-Kings' presumptions, said "they can sort out their own metal deposits," and the Sorcerer-Kings never did (because they had no idea they should, or they didn't care to?).

Maybe what comes to the Prime Material is looking for something new to eat? A delicacy? Compared to the usual?

Actually, Dark Sun is more confusing than what you show. Even in the original 2E supplements, it was still connected to the Astral and Outer Planes because some authors couldn't resist. So, there is a portal to Sigil from an Inn in one of the city states! I think there is a portal in another city state to somewhere out there as well. Then, you have the tower in the middle of nowhere that has demonic script on it and talks about how devils used it as a gate. There are hints at other things as well, especially with psionic travel.

Yes, Tyr's iron mine is the only functioning iron mine in the Tablelands, perhaps the known world, depending on if you used the expanded boxed set. However, this is where reality really works against us. Iron is very common and we mine a lot! Further, the biggest hazard is water, so it might be easier to mine than I thought!

Sorry. Longer than I meant that to be but I ran Dark Sun for a short campaign and so got back into it!

edg

puctheplayfull
2013-04-10, 08:31 AM
I assume you mean AD&D 2E, because AD&D 1E did indeed give magic items a GP value. The XP value (XP you got for finding the item and keeping it) was separately given. (The XP values in AD&D 2E are for creating the item, for which hardly any rules are given.)

Note that AD&D 1E only gives "G.P. Sale Value" - it's what the PCs can get selling the item, if they find a buyer. There is no shops selling magic (except, possibly, potions and low-end scrolls). Theoretically, the PCs might find other adventurers selling items, or a spellcaster selling one, but they're not going to be able to go out and buy what they want, or order them up.

Yep, 2E. I believe the XP values given for items in 2E are for finding the items like in 1E because there wasn't a system for creating magical items with the initial release. They actually expanded on the method for creating magical items in the Tome of Magic, or was it the Book of Artifacts, I don't remember which, but they provided a complete system for calculating difficulty and the roll the mage/cleric/druid could make. They also included suggestions for the special materials you would need to locate/purchase. Creating magic items was a major process in 2E, and depending on the DM, a complete adventure in and of itself. The rules for creating psionic items were much more liberal, and much easier to work with. You were, however, a little more limited on what you could do unless you adapted the magical item creation system to psionics because it was all based on using some kind of imprint power (I don't remember what it was called) to give the item a power and points to use it.

Rhynn
2013-04-10, 09:41 AM
I believe the XP values given for items in 2E are for finding the items like in 1E

Nope!

AD&D 2E DMG (revised), page 183, 3rd paragraph:
"Note: XP Value is the number of experience points a character gets for making an item."

AD&D 2E DMG (revised), page 70, Table 34: Individual Class Awards
"Wizard
...
Making potion or scroll ... XP value
Making permanent magical item ... XP value"

There's nothing that says you get XP for finding magical items in AD&D 2E.


Creating magic items was a major process in 2E, and depending on the DM, a complete adventure in and of itself.

That's my approach. I have clear and simple rules for making potions and scrolls, but any other items will require a list of ingredients (from the simple, like "beholder's eyestalks," to elaborate, like "woven moonlight") that the PCs will have to find.

That's pretty much exactly why you get XP for making the magic items, to me.


I really like this idea. However, I think it would have to be used very sparingly as an adventure. Actually, let me clarify.

In 2E, that's not an option. Only rogues can move silently, no one else has that "skill." And it seems that once they are heard, it's going to be a tough fight for first or second level.

Not in my AD&D (1E or 2E; or BECMI, etc., for that matter). "Move Silently" means just that - silently, not quietly. Anyone and everyone can sneak (Dex checks if absolutely necessary). But Move Silently is better. Mechanically, I give thieves who successfully use MS automatic surprise against anyone except other thieves/bards (who get to use Detect Noise; if both succeed, the higher roll wins).

Similarly, everyone can hide, but thieves can hide in shadows, letting them disappear in the middle of battle (it helps that a round is 1 minute long) only to reappear from the shadows with a backstab attack.

I don't personally find thief skills restrictive at all by their existence, and this seems obvious to me. The idea that a fighter can't sneak is patently ridiculous! So what's the explanation? That thieves are better - on a whole different level, in fact.

This also solves the problem of supposedly "low" thief skill success chances at 1st level.

Also, I don't use a pass-fail skill system. Most non-thief sneaking wouldn't even require any rolls, other than surprise rolls if the party tries to sneak up on enemies. (Not trying to sneak up on an enemy doesn't even give you a chance at surprising them, generally.) Challenges in older D&D editions are, to me, not about rolling and numbers on your sheet, they're about your decisions. Role-playing, clever plans, but most of all decisions.

Also, hexcrawling - the "other half" of a traditional D&D campaign - is mostly about finding enormous monster lairs and looting them. My players will routinely have to deal with full Monstrous Manual -parameters lairs of hundreds of opponents.


Even in the original 2E supplements, it was still connected to the Astral and Outer Planes because some authors couldn't resist.

Ah, you're right. Isn't there a whole githzerai city (on the Astral Plane) as an adventure location in one of the pre-revision Dark Sun adventures?


Yes, Tyr's iron mine is the only functioning iron mine in the Tablelands, perhaps the known world, depending on if you used the expanded boxed set. However, this is where reality really works against us. Iron is very common and we mine a lot! Further, the biggest hazard is water, so it might be easier to mine than I thought!

In my Athas, the Green Age civilizations nearly depleted Athas of its useful minerals. They had thousands and thousands of years (and, in my Athas, considerably more advanced technology than medieval-level) to do it. Now, most iron has either rusted, or been buried in ruins, and scavenging is an economically viable alternative to mining for decent quantities of it.

Of course, in my Athas, the Cleansing Wars were fought with ray guns and hydrogen bombs as well as sorcery and psionics, so it may not count for much...

NichG
2013-04-10, 03:43 PM
A lot of the 'sneak around and get the treasure' stuff in older editions wasn't 'go stealth mode and walk through the room full of monsters'. It might mean creating a distraction to lure the guards away and deal with a reduced encounter, or to resolve the presence of the monsters with a non-combat method like forcing a Cloud Kill forward through the tunnels by having it be dragged by a summoned, vortexing air elemental. Or setting a bunch of traps and luring the monsters through them. Or finding a secret door or mechanism that lets you bypass the room that has the monsters entirely. Or realizing that the monsters won't touch anyone wearing the robes of the cult that summoned them.

Its a bit of a difference in outlook between 3+ed, where you have 'class abilities' and 'skills' as the things the character could do, and 1ed and 2ed, where basically you can do it if you can describe it, and rarely you get some extra powers from your class on top of that which might help.

evildmguy
2013-04-11, 09:46 AM
Rhynn: The problem I had with 2E and earlier is that a lot of the basics of the game are based on wargaming, or groups, and not individuals. Further, the system was designed and supported with the idea of challenging the players not their characters and I think that's an important distinction.

Encounters in 2E or earlier, by the RAW, were handled on a group level of the DM rolling for encounter distance, with some exceptions that I will get to in a moment. Basically, it was assumed both groups were moving as needed, and that they spotted each other at some distance, which was modified by weather, terrain and other things. The point is that those tables (encounter distance) were the RAW for the guidelines for the DM on how to start an encounter.

I can think of two exceptions. The first is when two groups just happen to "collide" at an intersection in a dungeon, in which case you roll for surprise. I had many arguments about those surprise tables, so I argue the RAW failed me in 2E and earlier. (what if a drow fighter in drow chain meets a human thief moving silently? It really messed that chart up.) The second is when there is a potential encounter (a door in the dungeon maybe with light seen around the edges or a house along the road or cave in the wilderness) and the thief or ranger goes scouting. In this case, by the RAW, as long as the thief or ranger makes their move silently roll, they get to move forward and scout. If they fail, that's the encounter distance and the DM again goes to the surprise table to see if there is surprise.

I find that to be . . . clunky at best. And 3E, imo, handles it much better. First, it gives ideas on how to handle encounters, instead of generic charts for distances. It makes no sense that out in the plains on a clear day that two groups only notice each other a hundred yards away but that was a possible result on the tables. Second, there isn't a failure, per se, for the rogue, just a bad roll. But even a bad attempt by the rogue might not be heard by the other side. I like that they get a listen or perception check, or a passive check (in 3E or 4E) such that really skilled characters still might not be noticed, not to mention modifiers the DM allows such as not on alert or whatever. Third, as a DM, I know how well most monsters will notice things, or not, due to having certain abilities (scent or the like) and having listed skills for such things.

Basically, to me, it felt as if the character had more chances to succeed at what they were trying to do and there was less DM fiat, which I think is a good thing overall. Further, it was the character against the monster, not the player against the DM, which I REALLY appreciated. It wasn't how good the player explained something and how well the DM understood it but two rolls. (Yes, I want more than that and some descriptions but at least the RAW could be used for those who aren't good at that sort of thing.)

Again, I'm not arguing how you play. Merely that the rules of 3E work better for me as a base.

NichG: And, again, I didn't like this because it was too much DM fiat or "DM May I?" that I don't like about earlier editions. I think 2E was a little better with the better descriptions of the monsters but I think the advice in 3E was better in terms of how to handle things and reward and help players, rather than just the creative ones! I think it opened the doors on older DMs expectations, which is a good thing.

But that was me. YMMV.

This is, while interesting to me, WAY off topic.

It is really opening my eyes, though, at the idea of a dragon's hoard and what that means. And banks as run by dragons is very interesting! I like it because it gives a traditional "monster" a potential role in society rather than an obstacle for the characters! I'm going to have to think about this!

Having said that, it's tough to beat the visual, from Dragon's Lair for me, of a dragon lying about on piles of gold and stacks of magical items! I remember reading a dragon article that talked about how introducing a dragon's hoard could ruin a local economy. While that article didn't have the best mechanical way to implement this, I did like the idea of it! Another way to tax the characters when they cause inflation! Or get them in trouble with the people who can't afford things now!

Thanks!

edg

Rhynn
2013-04-11, 10:08 AM
Old D&D is about rulings, not rules. All games have problems at any specific table, and it's the responsibility of the referee (and the rest of the group) to sort them out. Or are there RPGs where you think no one has arguments about the rules?

FWIW, encounter distances are only used outdoors, and they're for when you need to randomly determine the encounter distance, not for every encounter. Enslavement to what is written in a book is counter to the spirit of pre-3E RPGs (basically, D&D 3E and 4E are the only games I can think of with such a fetishism for "RAW" - a term I never heard or read online until 3E).

edit: Also, 3.X also uses random rolled encounter distances when necessary. "Stealth and Detection in [Terrain]" under the terrain entries in the DMg. So uh, what? /edit

The idea that you should use a rule when it makes no sense or is unnecessary is ridiculous.


Having said that, it's tough to beat the visual, from Dragon's Lair for me, of a dragon lying about on piles of gold and stacks of magical items! I remember reading a dragon article that talked about how introducing a dragon's hoard could ruin a local economy. While that article didn't have the best mechanical way to implement this, I did like the idea of it! Another way to tax the characters when they cause inflation! Or get them in trouble with the people who can't afford things now!

This one always puzzles me a bit...

How are the PCs causing inflation? How are they managing to dump so much cash into an economy that can't handle it? It's not like they suddenly unload everything they have into a pile on the street and the fastest locals become filthy rich, or start paying a 1000% markup on everything for fun. Any city large enough to be able to offer anything to PCs with a dragon's hoard to spend is probably going to be able to absorb it.

In fact, a 2E great wyrm's hoard (the good kind, Hx3; let's assume platinum over electrum) averages 71,500 gp. (Which means 71,500 XP, compared to the 20 - 22,000 XP for killing the dragon.) That's enough to commission 1.5 to 3 sea-going ships. It's a fortune, but it's not an amount that wrecks a city or town economy with inflation.

I personally love the Smaug Is Dead problem: the dragon is dead, and now everyone wants a piece of the hoard. If the PCs aren't able to transport it all at once (which, even for these "modestly realistic" hoards, would require wagons or carts or a small train of pack animals, there being thousands of pounds of coins), then they're going to have to leave a guard on the place, or else find a way to hide everything nearby...

Deepbluediver
2013-04-11, 10:53 AM
I personally love the Smaug Is Dead problem: the dragon is dead, and now everyone wants a piece of the hoard. If the PCs aren't able to transport it all at once (which, even for these "modestly realistic" hoards, would require wagons or carts or a small train of pack animals, there being thousands of pounds of coins), then they're going to have to leave a guard on the place, or else find a way to hide everything nearby...

Which WOULD be a problem, if not for Bags of Holding and similar items (which should be banned or far more restricted, IMO).

It's as you pointed out: something that should be a significant problem or an interesting mini-adventure instead gets solved in 1 round by just having a copy of invaluable magic item X.

Resource management actually becomes much more of an interesting issue when you actually need to track how much you can carry, and can't simply point to your copy of the PHB and say "one of everything, please".

Rhynn
2013-04-11, 12:49 PM
Which WOULD be a problem, if not for Bags of Holding and similar items (which should be banned or far more restricted, IMO).

That's only a big factor in a magic-mart world where PCs can outfit themselves with exactly the magic items they desire. The largest bag of holding (1,500 lbs. in 1E-3E) would probably be able to fit most of a 2E dragon's hoard (which is likely to include close to a hundred thousand coins and plenty of objects of art, possibly weighing in the thousands of pounds).

In 1E, even the 1,500 lbs. bag can only hold 15,000 coins, though. :smalleek: Not very impressive for hauling off a dragon's hoard, which in 1E might weigh ten thousand pounds or more!


It's as you pointed out: something that should be a significant problem or an interesting mini-adventure instead gets solved in 1 round by just having a copy of invaluable magic item X.

Yup. But, perhaps paradoxically, that is rather the point of magic items for me, and the reason they should be rare. By having item A, you can "power-solve" problems X through n.

The same goes for magic spells, although in a rather more limited sense - sure, you can cast fly, but in an Undermountain dungeon crawl, you don't know if right now is the time when you'll need it the most before you get out of the dungeon and can replenish your memorized spells. Spellcasters in older editions are all about judicious use of magic (at least at the lower levels, i.e. most of the time). And even in 3E at an actual table, as opposed to theoretical discussion, wizards are not guaranteed to have exactly all the spells they want, although in older editions this is more true than in 3E.

Jeraa
2013-04-11, 01:02 PM
In 1E, even the 1,500 lbs. bag can only hold 150 coins, though. :smalleek: Not very impressive for hauling off a dragon's hoard, which in 1E might weigh tens of thousands of pounds!

1st edition coins were not 10 pounds each. They were 10 coins per pound. A bag of holding that holds 1500 pounds would hold 15,000 1st edition coins, not 150.

(That same bag can hold 75,000 3rd edition coins.)

Rhynn
2013-04-11, 01:06 PM
1st edition coins were not 10 pounds each. They were 10 coins per pound. A bag of holding that holds 1500 pounds would hold 15,000 1st edition coins, not 150.

(That same bag can hold 75,000 3rd edition coins.)

What is going on with my brain.

Yeah, 15,000 coins.

However, a DMG hoard (one of each monetary types, plus 5 random ones) is close to 100,000 coins, or more. :smalleek: So possibly ten thousand pounds or more. (At least there's no "objects of art", just gems and jewelry...)

NichG
2013-04-11, 01:27 PM
There are still hoards that aren't easily solved by a Bag of Holding or the like. A 'hoard' comprised of giant pieces of art - maybe something like a Medusa's Garden - would be hard to transport that way due to volume issues and the size of the mouth of the bag. Another example would be a 'hoard' that is actually a collection of vehicles in poor condition - bringing home a fleet of 50 ships is worth a lot of gold, but you only get paid for those that survive. Another possibly interesting example would be a 'hoard' of valuable animals or other living things that can't survive in the Bag of Holding environment (plants that must receive regular sunshine and exposure to the moon).

Its true though, none of that is coinage, so the visuals wouldn't be impressive in the same way.

Dr.Epic
2013-04-11, 01:30 PM
Showing a PC a visual representation of gold is about at futile as showing a drowning man a picture of oxygen.:smallwink:

LOL! References!

evildmguy
2013-04-11, 01:38 PM
Wow. We seem to be talking in a circle.

I think it comes down to play style and what every group finds fun.

In my group, as I think I said, the mere suggestion of having to track every copper piece annoys my players. And I have to admit, that at a certain point, figuring out how much they can carry by weight, how much they can carry by volume and then how many trips it might be, or what their magic can do for them, either in terms of strength or extra-dimensional space, gets hand waved away. We end up deciding on a reasonable amount of time it would take to get the hoard out, by whatever means they have available to them, and say it's done.

I still use the campaign coins (and some printed ones I made, color coded by type!) when I can because I think it's fun. But when it stops being fun, I find something else to use.

edg

Rhynn
2013-04-11, 02:56 PM
In my group, as I think I said, the mere suggestion of having to track every copper piece annoys my players. And I have to admit, that at a certain point, figuring out how much they can carry by weight, how much they can carry by volume and then how many trips it might be, or what their magic can do for them, either in terms of strength or extra-dimensional space, gets hand waved away. We end up deciding on a reasonable amount of time it would take to get the hoard out, by whatever means they have available to them, and say it's done.

Sure. But I want to figure out how many trips they need to make, how many hirelings they involve, and how long it all takes, because they're never going to just waltz through the forbidding wilderness between civilization and the dragon lair (or whatever dungeon) - it's going to involve rolls for encounters, etc., every time, and meanwhile someone else may be going after the treasure.

This sort of thing is what creates, to me, almost the entire content of the game: There is a situation. The players do something about it, creating a new, changed situation. The world reacts. Rinse and repeat. The end result is a story created almost entirely of the players' decisions (and the DM's reactions/input).

D&D, to me, is a game of exploration, not a game of DM-written "plots" or combat encounters.

Deepbluediver
2013-04-11, 02:59 PM
I still use the campaign coins (and some printed ones I made, color coded by type!) when I can because I think it's fun. But when it stops being fun, I find something else to use.

Hence the reason I think that dealing in anything more than a few thousand gold pieces is kind of pointless. As is the idea that every monster has exactly 3d12/whatever GP on them, plus 1/4 that amount in precious gems etc etc.

If you need to award your players, do it with gear or specific items they find, and if they want something else let them barter or trade for it. I've always viewed the WBL table as an approximate guide to the level of value (as stated in the DMG or whatever) that a person should have, not as a carved-in-stone count of the number of gold pieces they are carrying around in their pocket.

Frankly, from a storytelling perspective, I think there are lots of ways to distribute gear-as-treasure that make more senses and are more interesting than hacking appart a monster to search it's stomach or find the pile of gold it's using as a bed (which would seem really uncomfortable, but hey what do I know).
Example: the king or lord or whoever sends you out to stop some rampaging monsters. The monster aren't carrying around any gold or treasure because why would they do that, they're monsters. But when you return to the king and report your successful murderfest, he allows your entire group to each pick one item from his armory.
or something like that

Beleriphon
2013-04-11, 08:14 PM
Frankly, from a storytelling perspective, I think there are lots of ways to distribute gear-as-treasure that make more senses and are more interesting than hacking appart a monster to search it's stomach or find the pile of gold it's using as a bet (which would seem really uncomfortable, but hey what do I know).
Example: the king or lord or whoever sends you out to stop some rampaging monsters. The monster aren't carrying around any gold or treasure because why would they do that, they're monsters. But when you return to the king and report your successful murderfest, he allows your entire group to each pick one item from his armory.
or something like that

I think that's the rationale behind 4E's treasure parcel method. You as DM determine the amount of treasure in advance, and what it is and how its distributed.

From one of the last Next Playtest articles it seems that creatures are going to get two treasure lines. What they carry around on a regular basis, and what they keep at home. So fighting a hobgoblin group away from their base they might have a few copper pieces and their equipment on them, but if you go to their base there's a chest full of loot.

Rhynn
2013-04-12, 12:08 AM
I think that's the rationale behind 4E's treasure parcel method. You as DM determine the amount of treasure in advance, and what it is and how its distributed.

It's the ultimate evolution of the encounter-based treasure system that started in late 2E.

Absolutely not for me.


From one of the last Next Playtest articles it seems that creatures are going to get two treasure lines. What they carry around on a regular basis, and what they keep at home. So fighting a hobgoblin group away from their base they might have a few copper pieces and their equipment on them, but if you go to their base there's a chest full of loot.

That's the AD&D 2E by-the-book system. The treasure tables are divided into "Lair Treasures" (A-I) and "Individual Treasures" (J-Z). The former are found in lairs, the latter on individual monsters. Monsters also separately list individual and lair treasures (the latter being in parenthesis). "Monstrous" monsters (umber hulks, owl bears, etc.) only have a lair treasure, assumed to be the accumulated remains of many victims. But orcs, for instance, each carry treasure L (2-12 platinum or electrum pieces), and have C, O, Qx10, and S in their lairs (everything but gold, some copper and silver, a big pile of gems, and some extra potions).

Fortunately, in AD&D, there's no system, rules, or reason to give PCs treasure based on their level. If there's someone offering a reward for killing monster X, you get a reward for killing monster X. There's no artificial pressures or needs or WBL involved. This does mean that the DM has to actually think about what magic items they introduce, and new DMs can mess up the campaign balance - but they do that in 3E, too.

Edit: I'm actually a bit confused as to what edition of D&D has monsters that wouldn't carry treasure carrying treasure around. :smallconfused:

obryn
2013-04-12, 08:37 AM
...continuing the Dark Sun derail, as it's about 10x as interesting as the currency stuff...


Actually, Dark Sun is more confusing than what you show. Even in the original 2E supplements, it was still connected to the Astral and Outer Planes because some authors couldn't resist. So, there is a portal to Sigil from an Inn in one of the city states! I think there is a portal in another city state to somewhere out there as well. Then, you have the tower in the middle of nowhere that has demonic script on it and talks about how devils used it as a gate. There are hints at other things as well, especially with psionic travel.
Yep, the vaunted "isolation" of Athas is really incredibly permeable. Almost every published high-level adventure had some kind of planar influence. If it's not githyanki and astral plane shenanigans, it's Dregoth playing with mirrors.


In my Athas, the Green Age civilizations nearly depleted Athas of its useful minerals. They had thousands and thousands of years (and, in my Athas, considerably more advanced technology than medieval-level) to do it. Now, most iron has either rusted, or been buried in ruins, and scavenging is an economically viable alternative to mining for decent quantities of it.

Of course, in my Athas, the Cleansing Wars were fought with ray guns and hydrogen bombs as well as sorcery and psionics, so it may not count for much...
Hey, that sounds kinda like my Athas! My (4e) group happened upon a long-crashed Githyanki techy-spelljammer, full of 60's design ray guns, cybernetic grell, flowing silver doors, and a lich kept animate by the ship's sentient computer/helm. (You know - basically a barely more sci-fi version of the official Gith back story.)

I ended up submitting the adventure in a pitch to Dragon. Chris Perkins told me that I was very, very wrong about Athas and potentially an actual insane person. :smallsigh:

But yeah, I've always viewed Dark Sun as a science-fantasy setting with most of the science long rotted away. I'm incredibly fond of the 70's-era attraction with mixing sci-fi and fantasy.* Stuff like Barrier Peaks and the way-back-backstory of the Wilderlands are just awesome.

Continuing with my Dark Sun heresies, one of the PCs' goals was to "bring back or discover the gods," and he's succeeded after 17 levels and close to 3 years of play. And it's not really turning out well. But I can put this derail in another thread...

-O


* More technically, considering them the same genre, but whatevs. You know what I mean.

Sith_Happens
2013-04-12, 09:01 AM
I've always viewed the WBL table as an approximate guide to the level of value (as stated in the DMG or whatever) that a person should have, not as a carved-in-stone count of the number of gold pieces they are carrying around in their pocket.

That's the RAW of it, actually. The table indicates the expected value of a PC's equipment, independent of how they actually acquired that equipment.

Deepbluediver
2013-04-12, 10:21 AM
That's the RAW of it, actually. The table indicates the expected value of a PC's equipment, independent of how they actually acquired that equipment.

Well, that's good then, but I know some players seem to expect that they can liquidate their entire stock of assets at any time and spend the resulting money on anything they want, without any problems, and they get upset if they have so much as a single CP less than the table says they should.

Rhynn
2013-04-12, 11:53 AM
I ended up submitting the adventure in a pitch to Dragon. Chris Perkins told me that I was very, very wrong about Athas and potentially an actual insane person. :smallsigh:

So... the setting obviously inspired by Barsoom isn't supposed to be sci-fi fantasy?

Incidentally, this type of setting has been really popular in the OSR recently... Xhuul (http://xhuul.blogspot.fi/2010/09/overview-of-xhuul.html), Athanor (http://swordsofathanor.blogspot.fi/), Planet Algol (http://planetalgol.blogspot.fi/) (probably the originator of the current trend), etc. That is because it is an awesome subgenre. Everyone should check them out, but if you like a more pulp-SF Athas, they're probably especially for you.


But yeah, I've always viewed Dark Sun as a science-fantasy setting with most of the science long rotted away. I'm incredibly fond of the 70's-era attraction with mixing sci-fi and fantasy.* Stuff like Barrier Peaks and the way-back-backstory of the Wilderlands are just awesome.

One of my personal main inspirations is the awesome roguelike Caves of Qud (http://forums.freeholdentertainment.com/showthread.php?10-Welcome-to-the-Caves-of-Qud-beta).

And yes, so much of the fantasy that D&D was actually born from was sci-fi fantasy to some degree, often of the "this is so far into the future that technology is gone and the world is unrecognizable" variety. (Or of the "a modern Earthling in a fantasy world" type. Like John Carter...)

And, indeed, fantasy is really just a type of SF anyway...

Sith_Happens
2013-04-12, 12:00 PM
Well, that's good then, but I know some players seem to expect that they can liquidate their entire stock of assets at any time and spend the resulting money on anything they want, without any problems

They can, it's just that then they'll have 0.5*WBL.:smalltongue:

obryn
2013-04-12, 12:21 PM
So... the setting obviously inspired by Barsoom isn't supposed to be sci-fi fantasy?
I know, right?!


Incidentally, this type of setting has been really popular in the OSR recently... Xhuul (http://xhuul.blogspot.fi/2010/09/overview-of-xhuul.html), Athanor (http://swordsofathanor.blogspot.fi/), Planet Algol (http://planetalgol.blogspot.fi/) (probably the originator of the current trend), etc. That is because it is an awesome subgenre. Everyone should check them out, but if you like a more pulp-SF Athas, they're probably especially for you.

One of my personal main inspirations is the awesome roguelike Caves of Qud (http://forums.freeholdentertainment.com/showthread.php?10-Welcome-to-the-Caves-of-Qud-beta).

And yes, so much of the fantasy that D&D was actually born from was sci-fi fantasy to some degree, often of the "this is so far into the future that technology is gone and the world is unrecognizable" variety. (Or of the "a modern Earthling in a fantasy world" type. Like John Carter...)

And, indeed, fantasy is really just a type of SF anyway...
Yep. I went through my "fantasy is serious business" phase ... but that was all like 10 years ago. Nowadays? Give me a fantasy world with a dash of 60's/70's sci-fi, and I'm thrilled. I don't need modern sci-fi mixed in, mind you; I want ray guns and power armor.

Anyway, yeah, I've been noticing more and more of the sci-fi/fantasy mix coming back. I mentioned the Wilderlands before; I loved the sci-fi background and wished they'd done more with it in the hexcrawl part.

I like a lot of the OSR stuff (particularly the OSR-inspired modern games), but it's hard to follow developments sometimes when so much time is spent dumping on new editions rather than celebrating the old. So - thanks for the links. I'll check them out!

-O

Rhynn
2013-04-12, 03:09 PM
Anyway, yeah, I've been noticing more and more of the sci-fi/fantasy mix coming back. I mentioned the Wilderlands before; I loved the sci-fi background and wished they'd done more with it in the hexcrawl part.

I've never actually read any primary material on the Wilderlands (of High Fantasy, right?), just people talking about the Wilderlands... any suggestions on where to learn more, directly?

I know it's Judges' Guild, the City State of the Invincible Overlord is part of it, etc., but that's about it.


I like a lot of the OSR stuff (particularly the OSR-inspired modern games), but it's hard to follow developments sometimes when so much time is spent dumping on new editions rather than celebrating the old. So - thanks for the links. I'll check them out!

I dunno, almost all the OSR blogs I read just focus on putting out new content (whether that's little rules, monsters & spells, or discussions about how to run your old-school game)... maybe I've just found the best ones.

Blogroll / link list:

Tales of the Grotesque and Dungeonesque (http://talesofthegrotesqueanddungeonesque.blogspot.ca)
Grognardia (http://grognardia.blogspot.fi/)
Necropraxis (http://www.necropraxis.com/) (previously Untimately (http://untimately.blogspot.ca/))
The Nine and Thirty Kingdoms (http://9and30kingdoms.blogspot.ca/)
Playing D&D With Porn Stars (http://dndwithpornstars.blogspot.fi/)
Jeff's Gameblog (http://jrients.blogspot.ca/)
Savage Swords of Athanor (http://swordsofathanor.blogspot.fi/)
Dreams in the Lich House (http://dreamsinthelichhouse.blogspot.fi/)
The Weirdlands of Xhuul (http://xhuul.blogspot.fi/)
Planet Algol (http://planetalgol.blogspot.fi/)


None of those blogs really spend any time ragging on newer editions (well, maybe Zak, a bit, if you read it that way, but he actually ran 4E originally IIRC). Most of them have a fine attitude towards new editions, and some (many?) actively play them. Mostly, they're just full of wonderful things that make my mind race and burst with ideas and help me improve my games - whether I want to run 2E, 3E, 4E, or something that's not D&D at all. (I've been applying wilderness hexcrawling to just about all my RPGs, because I like sandboxes.)

Mind, the problem I have is that so much of the OSR seems to have moved into G+ groups.

xxXEliteXxx
2014-01-30, 07:44 PM
Ok, so I have been playing Dungeons and Dragons, and similar RPGs for some years now, but I have never seen any visual representations of how a given amount of gold looks like.

Here. I created a quick simulation in Blender of 1,000 gold pieces.

At the bottom is a meter stick for reference. Each coin is 1 inch.

(Click the spoiler below for image.)

http://i.imgur.com/0nzeSdt.jpg

Malimar
2014-01-30, 10:27 PM
if you want to enrage your players, introduce a realistic-ish monetary exchange system. when they cross the border from kingdom X to kingdom Y, their gold is not work as much because of the marking on it. They have to get it exchanged.

I was going to do that in my first campaign, where metals were rare. One nation (the only one with access to mines) uses platinum/gold/silver/copper, one uses fancy seashells and beads, one uses enchanted wooden coins, one uses scrimshaw, etc. You come across a heap of one of these kinds of money, you need to make an Appraise check after counting to know how much it's actually worth.

I wisely abandoned this idea before it saw much play.

Talyn
2014-01-30, 10:29 PM
Elite, that is AWESOME, thanks! Having a visual reference is very helpful. Of course, a coin an inch across is a HUGE gold coin...

Regarding the size of gold coins - if you want to have them at 50/pound and made of pure gold, they should just slightly larger than an American dime.

The volume of a dime is .3397 cubic centimeters, and gold is 19.3 grams per cubic centimeter. That means a single, dime-sized gold coin weighs 6.55 grams, or 69 coins to the pound.

xxXEliteXxx
2014-01-30, 10:48 PM
Elite, that is AWESOME, thanks! Having a visual reference is very helpful. Of course, a coin an inch across is a HUGE gold coin...

Regarding the size of gold coins - if you want to have them at 50/pound and made of pure gold, they should just slightly larger than an American dime.


Well, an American dime is ~2 centimeters, or .7 inches, so a 1 inch coin isn't that far off.
However, if you still insist on the coins being smaller, just imagine the meter-stick 3 centimeters larger. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: I made a more accurate representation(by that I mean I just Photoshopped the meter-stick a bit bigger) where each gold coin is ~0.7 inches in diameter. :smallredface:

(Click the spoiler below for image.)
http://i.imgur.com/yyRbmHZ.jpg

Malimar
2014-01-30, 11:15 PM
Also, the "bank run by a dragon, who'll guard your money for you (by sleeping on it), and issues a paper-based fiat currency, backed by his hoard" idea is going into my D&D setting immediately.

Lord Torath
2014-01-31, 09:52 AM
Well, an American dime is ~2 centimeters, or .7 inches, so a 1 inch coin isn't that far off.
However, if you still insist on the coins being smaller, just imagine the meter-stick 3 centimeters larger. :smallbiggrin:

Edit: I made a more accurate representation(by that I mean I just Photoshopped the meter-stick a bit bigger) where each gold coin is ~0.7 inches in diameter. :smallredface:

(Click the spoiler below for image.)
http://i.imgur.com/yyRbmHZ.jpgYou may want to check your math. If your coin is 70% the size shown, you need to increase the scale of your meter stick by 43%. (1 divided by 0.7 = 1.429)

xxXEliteXxx
2014-01-31, 10:01 AM
You may want to check your math. If your coin is 70% the size shown, you need to increase the scale of your meter stick by 43%. (1 divided by 0.7 = 1.429)

I no good at math. :P :smallbiggrin:

Jay R
2014-01-31, 11:05 AM
Also, the "bank run by a dragon, who'll guard your money for you (by sleeping on it), and issues a paper-based fiat currency, backed by his hoard" idea is going into my D&D setting immediately.

That works until the first time somebody tries to withdraw her money, and the dragon refuses. As soon as word gets out, the paper currency is worthless.

Paper only represents gold if it can be used to get the gold it represents.

Roland St. Jude
2014-01-31, 01:07 PM
Sheriff: This thread is many months past its expiration date. Please don't revive old threads.