Dwarf Merchants

[Fortinbras]

So most of my campaign takes place in a city that sort of an analog for Venice. It involves a lot of trading (PC's are playing as merchants). As is fairly common the dwarves in my world are rich in minerals and good crafting them. What I need to figure out is what they are trading their metal working for. Aside from food and maybe cloth, what sorts of things would it make sense for dwarves to want to trade for?

[kieza]

Wood, of course. Can't grow trees underground. Also medicinal plants and extracts, pigments, dyes, etc. from plants that they can't raise themselves.

Draft and riding animals. Ponies (or bears, bad-tempered sheep, etc.) for the dwarf cavalry. Donkeys, oxen, mules, etc. to provide muscle power for the dwarven mines.

Pearls, since you usually don't get oysters in the mountains. That's an entire genre of semi-precious gems that the dwarves don't really have access to.

Foreign art for rich, cultured dwarves. Not just paintings/sculptures, but also literature, theater, etc.

[KillianHawkeye]

Well we know what the dwarves have for trade. The question then becomes "What do the dwarves need to acquire?"

Kieza had some good suggestions. One thing I'll add is anything that requires arcane magic to create since Dwarves have a cultural tendency to shun arcane magic users.

In the end, the answer is going to be specific to the dwarven settlement, what resources it has access to, and which ones it is lacking.

[Slipperychicken]

Why not cash?


Also:
Expensive imported alcohols. For the high-brow Dwarf who wants to show off.

Wood products like dice, bows, game-sets, miniatures, and stringed instruments, in addition to the raw materials. High-quality Elven and Gnomish make are probably the most prized.

Drugs, mostly plant-based. Painkillers, antitoxins, cure-alls, contraceptive drugs, recreational drugs (Why does the image of Dwarves hitting a bong immediately come to mind?), and so on.

Any metals which aren't common in Dwarf-Venice.

Rare, non-native hides. To be made into luxury clothes, dire-bear carpets, and cozy bedding.

Spell components, some of which may not be native to Dwarf-Land.

Makeup, perfumes, and other beauty products, as many of those are going to be plant-based and thus less available underground.

[GoddessSune]

There is the big, obvious one: Spices! (This was/is true of the real world too) Needless to say dwarves love spices. Such as pepper and garlic. And (non-spice) salt.

And other ''dwarven likeable'' foods like lemons and limes. And seafood. Plenty of seafood has a good dwarven taste to it(not the 'fishy ones').

And magic. For all the hot air dwarves blow about not liking magic...they do like it. An ever-cold mug, a beard comb of ever cleaning, or combat related items are fine for dwarves.

And anything exotic. Anything very ''un-dwarven''. Things like elven poetry....

[Deffers]

Well, how about mermaid bones? I mean, SOMEBODY'S in the market for those and a Dwarven settlement without its own cistern to air-drown the mermaids in might have trouble getting them. :smalltongue:

Food's definitely a big one. Booze is a big one. You're looking at massive tantrum spirals riots if dwarves don't get their booze, so you'd figure a savvy dwarven ruler or two would figure there's no harm in using the lesser alcohols of other races to pad up their own booze stores for lean times.

Beyond that, there's always the old standby: weapons. If you just dug too greedy, and too deep, as dwarves are wont to do, you're gonna want every single weapon you can get your mitts on. Especially things like arrows and crossbow bolts and shuriken and boomerangs and maybe bullets, depending on your tech level.

Hell, just have your dwarven settlement be in war. Yeah, sure, dwarves can craft it better, but they need MORE OF IT, RIGHT NOW. You longlegs are gonna have to pick up the slack for them, and there's good coin in it for you if you do.

[Rhynn]

Why not cash?

Because money is a vessel of trade and has no intrinsic worth.


Beyond that, there's always the old standby: weapons.

That one doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would they make metalwork to trade for a different kind of metalwork, instead of just making that different kind of metalwork (and better)? You'd expect them to shut down gold & silver & gem mines, put everyone in the iron and coal mines, repurpose forges and smelters, and let the jewellers & silversmiths help out the blacksmiths...

I think the main ones are all covered: it's pretty much "things that grow" (grains, trees, herbs, textiles, animals, etc.).

[Deffers]

Even if they DO just repurpose everyone in their social circle thingy, they'd still have a huge bunch of luxuries left over for the war effort. And it's not like how you can melt down cast iron pots and other iron tools-- gold's just always gonna be crappy for weapons. So you sell what you can get. You get people to donate their jewelry for the cause, maybe for bonds. And thus they can trade THAT metalwork for more weapons.

[Rhynn]

It really doesn't seem likely that dwarves would run out of weapons. It's not like you need a new sword or axe for every fight. I doubt Venice with its Arsenal was ever a great importer of arms & armor, even in times of war... and they were no dwarves.

[Deffers]

OK, good point. Unless your dwarves are based on those of Dwarf Fortress. In which case they tend to be fighting non-corporeal enemies made entirely of corrosive clouds of hate that turn their blood into writhing snakes or something similarly horrible.:smallyuk:

If they're not, then... yeah. It's mostly gonna be wood, conches, mermaid bones, etc.

Although crossbow bolts involving wood in the construction might be depleted. And similarly all thrown weapons, there'd be trade for.

[Surfnerd]

on the subject of spice, aren't there salt mines? As in wouldn't dwarves have access to salt for trade. i know that doesn't help what they would trade for, but it would put them in trade for other spices with a similar commodity. I feel like lumber would be a very high value commodity. Without it no arrows, no bows, no crossbows, no axe or mining equipment.

And there is more than just "wood", yew was used for longbows, oaks for handles, as well as rarer hard woods with rich tones.

Also dyes for clothing tapestry etc.

[Pokonic]

Well, besides Spices, there's always food. Yes, they can grow there own, but no one has ever called the typical dwarven diet tasty. The dwarves have, after years of explorers coming back with tales of things other than cave wheat and goatflesh, have developed a distinct taste for, among other things, seafood. Dwarfs, in this case, have developed a fondness for a product they have no cultural backround on, and are perfectly happy to spend half a fish's wieght in gold to obtain it.

[Scow2]

Well, how about mermaid bones? I mean, SOMEBODY'S in the market for those and a Dwarven settlement without its own cistern to air-drown the mermaids in might have trouble getting them. :smalltongue:Nah. After word got out to the public of the atrocities involved in the harvesting of Mermaid bones, the demand for the bones dried up faster than a raindrop in Arizona, causing the entire "industry" to collapse.

[Deffers]

It occurs to me that maybe Dwarven traders could also just trade metalworks for... more metalworks.

Basically, maybe they could use their Dwarven metalworks to buy some starting capital, then sell those capitals elsewhere in the surface that they could get to using underground Dwarven tunnels or stuff to make new trade routes.

Then apply arbitrage to make a killing on whatever you're transporting.:smallamused:

The only thing better than wealth is more wealth, after all.

[Anderlith]

Without knowing the social/economical status of the dwarves I can't give much imput.

Are dwarves all one nation? What social/economical pressures are keeping them from assimilating?

[Concrete]

News and information are always a valuable commodities.
And everyone needs paper.

[Slipperychicken]

Because money is a vessel of trade and has no intrinsic worth.


So the Venice-analogue merchant Dwarfs don't take cash?

[Jay R]

So the Venice-analogue merchant Dwarfs don't take cash?

Of course they take cash, but that still didn't answer the question. What do they trade for? Assume they take cash, and then go buy something. That something is the answer to the question; the coins are how they sold to one merchant and bought from a different one.

Money isn't a good. It's a symbol of exchange used to facilitate the transfer of goods.

On a side note: Dwarves have the gold, silver and copper mines, and are the best in the world at working metal into precise shapes. They are probably making the cash.

[dps]

Aw, I thought this thread would be about buying and selling dwarves. :smallbiggrin:

[kieza]

Actually...as an economist I'm ashamed not to have thought of this earlier.

They don't buy anything with the money they make on trade...they just invest it. In foreign companies, foreign government bonds, etc. They have a massive trade surplus, they're filthy rich, and they have partial ownership of everything. Everywhere.

Nobody goes to war with the dwarves, because then the dwarves won't loan them money. Worse yet, the dwarves will loan their enemies money, on very lenient terms, for the express purpose of wiping them off the map. They'll use their massive reserves of foreign currency to manipulate the global currency market to devastate their economy. And when the war's over, the dwarves will repossess what's left as war reparations.

[Ravens_cry]

Actually...as an economist I'm ashamed not to have thought of this earlier.

They don't buy anything with the money they make on trade...they just invest it. In foreign companies, foreign government bonds, etc. They have a massive trade surplus, they're filthy rich, and they have partial ownership of everything. Everywhere.

Nobody goes to war with the dwarves, because then the dwarves won't loan them money. Worse yet, the dwarves will loan their enemies money, on very lenient terms, for the express purpose of wiping them off the map. They'll use their massive reserves of foreign currency to manipulate the global currency market to devastate their economy. And when the war's over, the dwarves will repossess what's left as war reparations.
Reminds me of a certain city on the Disc. :smallamused:

[Scow2]

Actually...as an economist I'm ashamed not to have thought of this earlier.

They don't buy anything with the money they make on trade...they just invest it. In foreign companies, foreign government bonds, etc. They have a massive trade surplus, they're filthy rich, and they have partial ownership of everything. Everywhere.

Nobody goes to war with the dwarves, because then the dwarves won't loan them money. Worse yet, the dwarves will loan their enemies money, on very lenient terms, for the express purpose of wiping them off the map. They'll use their massive reserves of foreign currency to manipulate the global currency market to devastate their economy. And when the war's over, the dwarves will repossess what's left as war reparations.Well, nobody except the races marginalized by the 'common' races will attack the dwarves. Goblinoids and Orcs only have one recourse to acquiring Dwarven Gold - by force. Aberrations and giants don't give two craps about dwarven gold, and want their homes.

[LibraryOgre]

Pearls, since you usually don't get oysters in the mountains. That's an entire genre of semi-precious gems that the dwarves don't really have access to.

Nonsense! I've had Rocky Mountain Oysters! They were great!

:smallbiggrin:

More seriously, yeah... you trade for what you need or want but can't make. I tend to lean away from "They'll trade for food", because pretty much every place can make food and support itself, especially if they are otherwise a largely autonomous society... their food may be weird (lots of rat and mushroom stew), and they may trade for luxury foods (i.e. things they can't conveniently grow), but they're likely to have some variety of food staple.

Wood's a good answer, though they're likely to have some sources close to home. I'd also argue paper and parchment. While they've traditionally used stone or metal, the invention/their discovery of paper and parchment would be a great thing for non-permanent records and the like. Leathers in bulks, though they may have a substitute. And, of course, luxuries.

[Berenger]

I saw a documentary two weeks ago - Das Geheimnis der Zwerge (The Secret of the Dwarves, http://www.3sat.de/page/?source=/specials/thementage/ard/150599/index.html)

Apparently, at least some german myths about dwarves stem from actual venetian "dwarves" (humans suffering from dwarfism). They were prospectors pretending to look for gold in the german mountains, in truth they searched for cobalt and other invaluable "wortless" stuff needed for venetian glassblowing. Of course, the secrets of glassblowing were, uhm, secrets, and betrayal was punishable by death. Thats why those small guys from abroad grew their reputation for being grumpy, close-mouthed little buggers.

Edit: Reading the opening post again, I guess I totally missed the point. :smallconfused:

[endoperez]

Here are some other ideas:


Weird and extremely specific items for magical rituals and forging of magical items.

For example, let's say that a dwarven craftsman is creating a magical axe of dragonbone (imported) and molten lava (imported from other dwarves, stored in a magical container). He needs a magical thingamajig to bond these together. Whatever it is, it isn't something that can be just crafted, since it needs to be a symbol of bonding made from a symbol of bonding made from a symbol of bonding.
Perhaps what he needs is a ring of silver or white gold forged from metal that was smelted from a wedding band, which itself was forged from metal smelted from a wedding band, etc once more.

Plot hook: a dwarf wants something specific that's not too complicated to acquire, except for having to explain yourself to the officials... Say, a dwarf is making a thief-proof lock, and needs a hand of glory - the left hand of a hanged criminal, add detail to taste. Unfortunately, only murderers are hanged, or the bodies are cremated, and hands of glory are also used in specific, very evil necromantic rituals.



The profits are used to buy things from other dwarves... with a few non-dwarf merchants between each exchange

This could be a hilarious, ridiculous cycle. Clan Steelfist makes the best weapons. Clan Ironhammer makes the best hammers, tongs and anvils. Clan Stonebrow makes the best armors. All of them makes good profit by selling these wares to the human merchants... who then go to the other two Clans, and make an even bigger profit. The human merchants have formed a Guild that's richer than any of the dwarven Clans.

Plot hook: Clan Steelfist can't afford to buy the best armor from Clan Stonebrow anymore, because Clan Ironhammer is buying them all and can afford to pay a better price. They need to convince the human merchants to sell the armor off at a lower profit margin - diplomacy, blackmail or sabotage are being considered.



Transportation is another interesting thing

Moving things from one place to another is expensive. Most of the ancient trade was done along very specific routes, and often used waterways. Even if the dwarves are just buying food, they also have to pay for the hazards of traveling through vast areas of wilderness and up a mountain to reach the dwarves. A dwarven stronghold on a easily accessible mountain (waterways, a nearby human city) would be immensely wealthy, but the remote ones would pay dearly for commodities such as cloth, wine and so on.

Plot hook: a pair of magical doorways have been found or manufactured that can be used to connect a remote dwarven fortress to a far-away location. Unfortunately, the dwarves can't decide if they want to connect to a human city or a dwarven stronghold, and an orc warband has appeared near the stronghold and might have learned about the gateway.


Slaves and other forms of labour

Perhaps the dwarves prefer being the craftsmen and leave the mining for others. Perhaps they want to acquire monopoly on specific skills, and will pay to have any blacksmiths with those skills relocated to their mountains.

Plot hook: the dwarves are holding an elvish prince as his retinue as hostage, and demand to be given the best woodcarver in the elvish realm. The elves can't decide whether to be more angry at the capture, the dwarves wanting to enslave an elf, or the dwarves thinking a craftsman is worth more than the whole retinue of a royal elf. The elvish woodcarvers can't decide who is the best. The prince has fallen in love with one of his jailers and is playing for time.

[Seharvepernfan]

Honestly, I think dwarves need to trade for pretty much everything except stone and metal. They live underground, there's hardly anything but that.

[Anderlith]

When in doubt; Textiles. Textiles make the world move

[Calmar]

If they commonly trade with the humans from 'Venice', the dwarves are probably involved enough with human culture(s) to share their needs. To me it wouldn't make much sense if the dwarves tried to isolate themself from influence by the culture they deal with. A dwarven clan chief would probably also be a patrician in 'Venice'.

So if you take part in Renaissance culture, you have to act like a part of Renaissance culture. It won't matter if you're a human in the cloth- or spice business, a shipowner, or a dwarven metal trader, you'll likely invest in art and luxuries befitting your status and you'll probably, as kieza suggested, also invest in the businesses of others to become even richer.

[Coidzor]

Well, it's rare that you'll get both copper and tin deposits in the same vicinity, so despite being mineral rich, it's still possible that there would be certain metals that they'd want to trade for. Bismuth, say, if you have enough geological diversity for it to be local, dwarf-on-dwarf trade that accounts for them to have access to bronzes.

Textiles are good, especially plant based, synthetic, and high end varieties. Dyes are good. Foodstuffs, Hides and leather goods, depending upon their above ground presence and how fantastical the farming is.

If you're allowing for complex processes, materials for electrolysis and the refinement of bauxite into aluminum may be on the table as well.

Explosives or materials for making explosives?

[Beleriphon]

Well, it's rare that you'll get both copper and tin deposits in the same vicinity, so despite being mineral rich, it's still possible that there would be certain metals that they'd want to trade for.

This is very true. Tin or copper are good choices to start with for trade. Pick one, the dwarves have the other in vast quantities but can't make bronze without the other.

[Rhynn]

So the Venice-analogue merchant Dwarfs don't take cash?

Quite possibly not. It's not a very desirable thing for a merchant. You don't want to bring back cash. You want to bring back something to sell. If you go over there and sell your metalworks for 100,000 coins and come back, you're hauling empty wagons, feeding guards and drovers and animals the whole way. However, if you go over there, sell your metalworks for 100,000 coins (or, better, for a letter of credit - essentially a medieval cheque), buy 100,000 coins worth of textiles to fill your wagons (or possibly more, using letters of credit you brought with you), and haul those back, and sell them for more than you spent on them (this is trade, after all; you buy cheap where it's made, sell expensive where it's needed). Now you might get actual coin and probably bank it with the dwarven equivalent of the Fuggers or Medicis. Or gnomish, probably.

Money is just not that desirable for medieval (or medieval fantasy) merchants.

[Coidzor]

This is very true. Tin or copper are good choices to start with for trade. Pick one, the dwarves have the other in vast quantities but can't make bronze without the other.

Things I learned from Dwarf Fortress that I should have learned from my Survey of World History Course.

[Wardog]

That one doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would they make metalwork to trade for a different kind of metalwork, instead of just making that different kind of metalwork (and better)?

They could trade for other dwarven weapons.

If these dwarves are the best goldsmiths on the continent, and the dwarves on the other side of the mountain are the best weaponmiths, then these dwarves will probably want to trade gold for weapons. Either directly with the other dwarves, or through a more complex network of exchange.

Also, as a couple of people have pointed out already, all the typically dwarfy goods (building stone, decorative stone, gems, precious metals, base metals, etc) don't usually occur in the same place. If the dwarf lords want to decorate their halls with porphyry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porphyry_%28geology%29), then odds are they will have to trade for it.

[Scow2]

Things I learned from Dwarf Fortress that I should have learned from my Survey of World History Course.Ironic. My first Dwarf Fortress was loaded with both, copper and tin. I made the stupidest stuff out of bronze, not knowing how rare it was supposed to be.

[Beleriphon]

Ironic. My first Dwarf Fortress was loaded with both, copper and tin. I made the stupidest stuff out of bronze, not knowing how rare it was supposed to be.

Yeah, Dwarf Fortress has those things in the correct geological layers, but they don't really mirror reality because of the engine. I've done the same, I had just about everything made out of bronze if I could because of how much of the stuff I could make. I had enough bronze ingots at one point I think I could have started making dwarves out of bronze.

[Geordnet]

When in doubt; Textiles. Textiles make the world move
That's true; in fact wasn't it the textile industry that drove the Industrial Revolution?

Anyways, you don't get cotton or silk underground, and you can only keep so many sheep around, so Textiles will definitely be the #1 trade good for them. There's certainly a perpetual need for wood as well, but since that's so much bulkier non-luxury woods will be almost exclusively local.

Spices will definitely be a sought-after item as well. I imagine that their tastes may differ significantly from those of humans (and other races, for that matter); maybe they like savory flavors like nutmeg, cinnamon, or tamarind much more than spicy ones like cayenne or (black) pepper. In fact, you could even say that their taste buds are such that something relatively flavorless to humans (say, olive oil) is just loaded with flavor for dwarves. :smallwink:

And though dwarves are usually depicted as the best brewers, having them be the undisputed masters of alcohol is cliche and boring. Elven wines, halfling vodka, gnomish mead, maybe even more exotic spirits like sake or rum... There's certainly plenty of varieties for dwarven connoisseurs to import. If nothing else, dwarves from one region will want dwarven ales from another region.

The same goes for anything else dwarven-made: as long as dwarves from one place are better at making it than dwarves from another, there will be trade between them. And perhaps the dwarves themselves are too few and too busy to conduct the trade themselves? There's always room for human (or other) middlemen.

Also, unless dwarves are everywhere, they won't have a monopoly on minerals. Some specific semiprecious stones like jade or lapis might be sparse in dwarven mines. The very best in each kind of stone usually comes from a specific region or even quarry, which won't always be in dwarven hands; either way dwarven artisans across the lands will covet it.

Of course, dwarves are as various in their needs and desires as anyone else, but these should be some of the biggest ones. :smallsmile: