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GoblinGilmartin
2013-04-04, 06:29 PM
I've been looking into the west end star wars game lately, and I built a Twi'lek jedi who is also an artist.

My friend and possibly the guy running the game (one person) claims that art could tie some one too deep into emotion, and it could lead them to the dark side, so it should be forbidden.

I'm asking around to see if anyone knows of any examples of jedi artists in the EU, or just an opinion on the issue.

KillianHawkeye
2013-04-04, 06:35 PM
The Jedi aren't forbidden from experiencing all emotion. That's crazy.

It seems to me that art would help to engender the more positive emotions through an appreciation of beauty. Like with any emotion, there are good ways and not so good ways of expressing oneself.

I don't read the EU, so I don't have any examples. Just my 2 credits.

snoopy13a
2013-04-04, 06:41 PM
Say that your character creates art because it develops his (or her) sense of peace and serenity.

Yora
2013-04-04, 06:57 PM
There are also many schools of Jedi Philosophy. If I remember correctly, the mainstream thought during the late Old Republic phase was considered dangerously close-minded and ridget which made them vulnerable to the purge by the Sith.
(Or in other words, lots of writers agree that Lucas' writing was terrible. :smallbiggrin:)


In the end, the Jedi council on Corruscant is not particularly powerful and seems to be more advisory in nature and not a hierarchical leadership. After the council decided that they would not take Anakin as a new student in the Temple Academy, Qui-Gon decided to train him by himself, and apparently he had the right to do so without getting expelled from the Order. As long as one didn't obviously turn to the dark side, Jedi seem to have been allowed to do what they think would be best.

But basically, Jedi philosophy seems to be primarily buddhist in essence.
If you want make that part of the character, I would suggest to pick some minimalistic or abstract for of art. Making larger than life-size statues, realistic paintings, or composing music for a grand orchestra wouldn't seem to fit well. But stylized two- or three-color brush drawings, or making relatively plain pottery would seem very much appropriate. Jedi art would tend towards the simple, plain, and humble, using basic materials and altering them only as much as absolutely needed, without fancy embelishments.

paddyfool
2013-04-04, 07:22 PM
Weirdly enough, there is a parallel with the light side vs dark side dichotomy in the history of art. In his 1872 work The Birth of Tragedy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Birth_of_Tragedy), Nietzsche divided the arts into an artificial dichotomy of "Apollonian" vs "Dionysian" (he wasn't the first to use the terms, but he certainly helped develop them). Put really simply...
- Apollonian art: ordered, structured, rational
- Dionysian art: disordered, chaotic, passionate

(As an aside, however, Nietsche defined high art as that which effectively utilises both...)

If your Twi'lek 's art is of a more Apollonian nature (for instance, careful real life portraiture, in whatever medium you like, to better appreciate the form of things), it would fit the orderly Light side of the Force quite neatly

EDIT: Semi-ninja'd

EDIT 2: A more detailed description of the dichotomy from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollonian_and_Dionysian):


Apollo (Apollonian or Apollinian): the dream state or the wish to create order, principium individuationis (principle of individuation), plastic (visual) arts, beauty, clarity, stint to formed boundaries, individuality, celebration of appearance/illusion, human beings as artists (or media of art's manifestation), self-control, perfection, exhaustion of possibilities, creation, the rational/logical and reasonable.

Dionysus (Dionysian): chaos, intoxication, celebration of nature, instinctual, intuitive, pertaining to the sensation of pleasure or pain, individuality dissolved and hence destroyed, wholeness of existence, orgiastic passion, dissolution of all boundaries, excess, human being(s) as the work and glorification of art, destruction, the irrational and non-logical.

RandomLunatic
2013-04-04, 07:49 PM
Jedi are not forbidden from emotion, which would be stupid and impractical even for the PT-era Jedi Order, but from forming attachments. And even that depends on the era.

If you need canon ammunition, you can try Tionne (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Tionne_Solusar), who was an accomplished musician and historian in addition to a Jedi.

Alejandro
2013-04-04, 08:23 PM
Ha ha ha. Wow, that's funny. Of course Jedi can create art.

Let's see:

- Jedi are expected to create their own lightsabers as part of their training, and each saber is different from every other, many with scrollwork, different designs, or special features. This is as much a work of art as making a weapon.

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/f/f4/ProcessionalWay-Deceived.png

That's the entrance to the Jedi Temple. Say, isn't that sculpture?

Scow2
2013-04-04, 08:25 PM
Ha ha ha. Wow, that's funny. Of course Jedi can create art.

Let's see:

- Jedi are expected to create their own lightsabers as part of their training, and each saber is different from every other, many with scrollwork, different designs, or special features. This is as much a work of art as making a weapon.

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images/f/f4/ProcessionalWay-Deceived.png

That's the entrance to the Jedi Temple. Say, isn't that sculpture?PLEASE PUT THAT IMAGE IN THE SPOILER BOX! But yeah, it's hard to argue Jedi can't be artists when they have so many works of art.

Also - emotion isn't the only inspiration for art.

Zahhak
2013-04-04, 08:32 PM
The Jedi are heavy influenced by the Japanese Samurai (Jedi comes from "Jediki", which are the Japanese version of a kung fu flick, but with Samurai), and the Samurai were often painters and poets. Infact, most of what we consider classic Japanese poetry and art was made by the Samurai. They used art and poetry to help achieve a sense of unity and calm. The idea that the Jedi would forbid art is therefor ludicrous.

Winds
2013-04-04, 08:53 PM
Of course they make art. Apart from all other considerations, we see them make art: they immortalized all of the Jedi who went dark in statue form. Not exactly the first action that would be taken by an order that forbids art. Besides, I seem to recall a lot of Jedi having artistic mindsets, though I don't recall any media where they made anything of importance besides the statues.

Kaervaslol
2013-04-04, 08:58 PM
For a better understanding of the jedi refer to the original trequel. Specially A New Hope Obi Wan Kenobi.

A Tad Insane
2013-04-04, 09:55 PM
Emotion was rarely banned, as was forming bonds, it's just letting the cloud you judgment. Obi wan, a master, often refered to Anikin as a brother, but, in true jedi form, that dirn't stop him from cutting him in half when he became a threat.

Anderlith
2013-04-05, 01:26 AM
Building a lightsaber is a form of art. Art is just another form of Expression & they don't stop you from Expressing yourself. That would be Tyranny

TheThan
2013-04-05, 11:20 AM
For some reason people tend to misinterpret the Jedi as being basically sword swinging Vulcans with magic.

The Jedi are supposed to be warrior/monks, even though most of them lean heavily on the warrior side of the equation. Still, there is no reason why they shouldn’t be able to create art or be artisans. We know they have Jedi diplomats, why not philosophers, mechanics, cooks, artists etc.

Paragon468
2013-04-05, 11:24 AM
I would definitely say emotion is forbidden.

There is no emotion: there is peace.

Serenity, harmony, and peace are definitely present, but those aren't exactly emotions in and of themselves.

A Jedi creating art doesn't exactly have to express an emotion. Art can express any idea, setting, or concept. Creating art that is void of emotion is general is possible. I quite like the idea of a Jedi artist who creates this kind of art.

lady_arrogance
2013-04-05, 11:30 AM
I think that in a some cases it would be good for jedi to create art. It can (and has been in real world) used as a way of meditation. Like buddhist mandalas. Also the creating one's own lightsaber is good, valid argument for creating art.

It's true that arts are often tied in with strong emotions, but it's more like "one who feels strong emotion will express them through art" and not like "one who creates art will start feeling lot of strong emotions, beacause of the art".

Paragon468
2013-04-05, 11:33 AM
I agree with Lady Arrogance. Art doesn't necessarily tie one to emotion, and it is often used as a form of meditation, religiously and otherwise.

Edit: the Catholic in me feels the need to mention Byzantine icons. The Byzantine Catholic Church is known for its beautiful icons that are created through a process that contains much religious meditation on the individual being depicted, and the works they performed in their life.

hamishspence
2013-04-05, 11:46 AM
In the end, the Jedi council on Corruscant is not particularly powerful and seems to be more advisory in nature and not a hierarchical leadership. After the council decided that they would not take Anakin as a new student in the Temple Academy, Qui-Gon decided to train him by himself, and apparently he had the right to do so without getting expelled from the Order.

Didn't Qui-Gon say to Anakin "I'm not allowed to train you"?

He certainly does in the book. And Yoda says "Take him with you- but train him not."

At the end of the film Obi-Wan however does say "I will train him- without the approval of the Council if I must".

Trekkin
2013-04-05, 11:52 AM
If your GM still won't let the idea of an artist Jedi fly, you can always claim to be a slightly heterodox Jedi. There is precedent for them doing much more dubious things and still turning out okay. Is making art really a larger departure from the image of Jedi conjured by the Code than, say, being married (Ki-Adi-Mundi), owning a starship (Saesee Tiin), or using force lightning (Plo Koon)?

Or...anything Qui-Gon Jinn does?

It just seems to me that an Order restricting all Jedi to this perfect emotionless warrior-monk mold would be a very small and very monotonous Order.

hamishspence
2013-04-05, 11:55 AM
In The Approaching Storm, the Jedi end up taking part in various displays- which could be called performance art- in order to win the approval of the tribe they are negotiating with.

Telekinetic dance, storytelling, lightsaber display, and so forth.

Paragon468
2013-04-05, 11:56 AM
We also have to remember that the main Jedi sect isn't the ONLY sect of Jedi. There are other sects that allow positive emotions, and even embrace them. Yoda's group doesn't control ALL the Jedi.

KillingAScarab
2013-04-05, 12:17 PM
Ha ha ha. Wow, that's funny. Of course Jedi can create art.

Let's see:

- Jedi are expected to create their own lightsabers as part of their training, and each saber is different from every other, many with scrollwork, different designs, or special features. This is as much a work of art as making a weapon.In the d20 version of Star Wars, pre-Saga edition, one of my favorite character ideas I never got to play was a Mon Calamari who created lightsaber hilts. They were working on perfecting one with very similar ideas in mind. It was, of course, not the main motivation for the character.


We also have to remember that the main Jedi sect isn't the ONLY sect of Jedi. There are other sects that allow positive emotions, and even embrace them. Yoda's group doesn't control ALL the Jedi.Then there are fun offshoots like the Jensaarai (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jensaarai) found in I, Jedi. They craft lightsabers, but their proof of the end of their apprenticeship is their armor - basically cortosis weave, but with totems of defensive animals incorporated.

Paragon468
2013-04-05, 12:22 PM
Then there are fun offshoots like the Jensaarai (http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Jensaarai) found in I, Jedi. They craft lightsabers, but their proof of the end of their apprenticeship is their armor - basically cortosis weave, but with totems of defensive animals incorporated.

The Jenasaari were more like dark Jedi, weren't they? It's been a while since I read that book. From what I remember though, they were their own faction, not tied to the Jedi in any way.

KillingAScarab
2013-04-05, 12:26 PM
The Jenasaari were more like dark Jedi, weren't they? It's been a while since I read that book. From what I remember though, they were their own faction, not tied to the Jedi in any way.I, Jedi spoilers ahead.
They were a tradition founded by Jedi who discovered some Sith texts on things such as how to create the armor. They were alienated by the last contact that tradition had with the Jedi. The tension is resolved when Luke Skywalker and Corran Horn get involved and realize, "Hey, you're not totally evil, you're just different." I never read about anything which involved them after that book, but the implication was that they might be left to live on their planet in peace. I think there was an open invitation to work with Luke's academy.

hamishspence
2013-04-05, 12:27 PM
Founded by the apprentices of Dark Jedi- who had not yet been "initiated into the dark side" themselves.

In The Clone Wars: No Prisoners, Master Djin Altis (Who taught Callista, who appears in Children of the Jedi) is portrayed as a Jedi who split from the main order from philosophical differences (he thought Jedi candidates should be permitted to start training as adults, marry, have day jobs, etc).

This fits with Callista having had a boyfriend among the Jedi, and with the two of them going on the mission to disable the Eye of Palpatine.

Paragon468
2013-04-05, 12:32 PM
I, Jedi spoilers ahead.


Ah, got it. Thanks.

As for the Altisian Jedi, I do recall those in Karen Traviss's Republic Commando series. The way it was described in that series, they were still in league with the main Jedi order, but they had their own separate traditions and customs, which is what set them aside from the rest of the Jedi.

hamishspence
2013-04-05, 12:44 PM
The Grey Paladins (of which one appears in the Coruscant Nights trilogy) are a bit more militaristic, and a bit less focussed on lightsabers- than the Jedi from which they split off.

In The Essential Guide to Warfare, it mentions that, at the end of the last Sith War, there were Jedi barons and lords- whose approach to things was a bit different from the main Council.

And that the Teepo Paladins (precursor to the Grey Paladins) came from one of the lines of Jedi Lords.

Anderlith
2013-04-05, 04:10 PM
Does your force user have the option to be an Imperial Knight? If so Imperial Knights are much more badass & less restrictive

kyoryu
2013-04-05, 04:40 PM
I don't think Jedi are required to not feel emotion, but rather must strive to master their emotions, and not act impulsively from them.

MukkTB
2013-04-05, 04:46 PM
The prquels were so bad that they make the Jedi look pretty morally ambiguous. As Confused Matthew puts it during the prequels they seem to care more about trade disputes than ending slavery. It goes on from there. Anyway, I would not want to model correct Jedi behavior off that time period unless you want to make mainstream Jedis of that time period. By that time the Jedi were more L/N than good and just about to fall to the Sith. I wouldn't call that a shining moment of Jedi history.

If you think of Jedi as an order of Paladins or Samurai that have existed for centuries or millennia, you would expect a great deal of variation over the course of their existence.

However, lets go to the Empire Strikes Back for a good view of the Jedi. What would the Yoda of that time think about art? He doesn't say anything directly about it but he provides some warning about the Dark Side. In Empire only the most negative emotions warrant that warning. The image of the pile of rocks Yoda has Luke make keeps coming back to my mind. The Art Yoda would be interested in would probably be fairly simple and abstract. A statue of rocks, a garden, some calligraphy. The kinds of things an old school Samurai would spend his time on come to mind. Bonus points for the art if it has a practical side of practicing some skill the Jedi find valuable.

Calmar
2013-04-05, 05:42 PM
To me the old Star Wars movies always implied the Jedi were more akin to wandering samurai, or knight-errants, dedicated to honour and goodness, than some kind of dogmatic order as seen in the prequels (after all, Obi-Wan is said to have been in the service of Leia's father in the past).

Looking at the possible sources of inspiration for the Jedi, be it samurai or knight, or any other sophisticated warrior, they all not only fought, but also created art ~ and were expected to do so.

I would even argue that only a Sith would eschew fine arts in favour of a blunt focus on politics and warfare. The crude and brutal nature of the Empire and it's war machines supports this theory. :smalltongue:

Scow2
2013-04-05, 08:30 PM
The whole "Jedi are emotionless" thing is a fabrication by Bioware (And one that got torn to pieces in that same series), and Flanderization and misrepresentation of a few lines from the prequel trilogy.

It wasn't that Anakin had emotions that made him too untrainable - it's that he was mentally unstable. Jedi are supposed to refrain from becoming unduly attached to others, for reasons Anakin demonstrated over the course of the trilogy. And Obi Wan demonstrated, by willfully blinding himself to what Anakin was becoming.