Gestalt Advice please

[TypoNinja]

So I'm going to be trying my first Gestalt game soon, and I think I've got an idea, but was hoping to get some outside opinions.

The DM has some houserules for character builds that are as follows;

1.Pick a non-core class, then pick a deity, your other class is one of that deities base classes.

2. If you PRC it takes both sides of the gestalt.

3. No multiclassing, so barring PRC's each will be a full 20 of the class.

I'm thinking I want to go with a Warlock Glaivelock build slightly modified, rather than seek combat I want to sit back and blast with EB, and then glaive the hell out of anything who thinks rushing the squishy caster was a good idea.

I'm thinking that hellfire warlock might just be worth it, thought no binder dip, so whats my best healing option? UMD some lesser restoration wands?

In aid of the Glaive, TWF, which to me says I go either Fighter or Ranger for the other half of the Gestalt. A glaive is a Polearm, and is described as reach weapon, Haft Strike lets me TWF with a Polearm though, so that should presumably work.

Not sure which is best, Fighter gives me more feats over all, and the PHB2 added a lot of fun looking fighter feats. On the other hand, Ranger buries me in skill points, gets me the TWF abilities sooner, and comes with class features that could be useful as well.

My other thought was Rogue. Glaive + Sneak attack strikes me as a good way to start rolling all the d6's ever, and still buries me in skill points. Just worried about how squishy I'd be.

Leaning fighter, just for the feats, little sad about lack of skill points, but whatever

I figure the build would look something like Warlock 9/Hellfire Warlock 3/Warlock X // fighter 9/Hellfire Warlock 3/ Fighter X



Human Fey Heritage
1st Fey Skin
Fighter 1 Haft Strike
Fighter 2 TWF
3rd Fey Power
Fighter 4 Combat Reflexes
6th Fey Presence
Fighter 6 ITWF
Fighter 8 Close-Quarters Fighting
9th Fey Legacy
Fighter 10 Double Hit (allows offhand attack with AoO's)
12th Ability Focus: EB
Fighter 12 GTW
Fighter 14 Short Haft
15th
Fighter 16
18th

This is just sort of a rough draft to give an idea of what I'm aiming for, I'd appreciate any comments/suggestions. Am I on the right track? Is there a better way to do this? Class selection/multiclassing house rules pretty much boil this down to Feat choices I'm thinking.

[DMVerdandi]

So I'm going to be trying my first Gestalt game soon, and I think I've got an idea, but was hoping to get some outside opinions.

The DM has some houserules for character builds that are as follows;

1.Pick a non-core class, then pick a deity, your other class is one of that deities base classes.

2. If you PRC it takes both sides of the gestalt.

3. No multiclassing, so barring PRC's each will be a full 20 of the class.

I'm thinking I want to go with a Warlock Glaivelock build slightly modified, rather than seek combat I want to sit back and blast with EB, and then glaive the hell out of anything who thinks rushing the squishy caster was a good idea.

I'm thinking that hellfire warlock might just be worth it, thought no binder dip, so whats my best healing option? UMD some lesser restoration wands?

In aid of the Glaive, TWF, which to me says I go either Fighter or Ranger for the other half of the Gestalt. A glaive is a Polearm, and is described as reach weapon, Haft Strike lets me TWF with a Polearm though, so that should presumably work.

Not sure which is best, Fighter gives me more feats over all, and the PHB2 added a lot of fun looking fighter feats. On the other hand, Ranger buries me in skill points, gets me the TWF abilities sooner, and comes with class features that could be useful as well.

My other thought was Rogue. Glaive + Sneak attack strikes me as a good way to start rolling all the d6's ever, and still buries me in skill points. Just worried about how squishy I'd be.

Leaning fighter, just for the feats, little sad about lack of skill points, but whatever

I figure the build would look something like Warlock 9/Hellfire Warlock 3/Warlock X // fighter 9/Hellfire Warlock 3/ Fighter X



Human Fey Heritage
1st Fey Skin
Fighter 1 Short Haft
Fighter 2 TWF
3rd Fey Power
Fighter 4 Combat Reflexes
6th Fey Presence
Fighter 6 ITWF
Fighter 8 Close-Quarters Fighting
9th Fey Legacy
Fighter 10 Double Hit (allows offhand attack with AoO's)
12th Ability Focus: EB
Fighter 12 GTW
Fighter 14
15th
Fighter 16
18th

This is just sort of a rough draft to give an idea of what I'm aiming for, I'd appreciate any comments/suggestions. Am I on the right track? Is there a better way to do this? Class selection/multiclassing house rules pretty much boil this down to Feat choices I'm thinking.

Eh...
What are you thinking about with the character?
The build IMO is a little underwhelming. Is there any idea that you are attached to?

Right now, it seems like you like fey, as wild mysterious spirits, and want to incorporate that into your build. Well, for one thing, Warlock's flavor is not cut out for it.
Are you married to the warlock???

An evil druid does the job SO much better. Better still an archivist.

The draw of warlocks is the infinite usage of their invocations. Thing about that is your HP is not infinite, so you would die before it could actually become an issue in comparison to other stuff.


Also since you are in a game that permits homebrew, I would try and see if you could have the spirit shaman, but expand the spell list to all divine spells, perhaps for the cost of all of the rest of the class abilities.

Spirit shaman has one of the coolest casting mechanics in the game, but having more than druid spells would help.

From there... Ferocity Lion totem barbarian?

Spirit shaman/Lion totem barbarian?
Take the whole wild angle, and have the spirit shaman gain spells directly from the spirits of the sidhe.

[avr]

The eldritch glaive is a spell like ability and not a weapon; away from books but I don't think feats like Short Haft will help, and TWF probably wouldn't apply either. Which would make all those fighter feats spent on such a waste.

What sort of base classes are associated with deities in your campaign? Is that code for "One PHB class and one from any source"? If so, yes Warlock // Rogue has the most synergy, but the best chance of a warlock surviving someone charging at them would be to have sorc/wizard defensive spells, and the second best would be to be a Warlock // Druid and to have their pet in the way.

[NeoPhoenix0]

eldritch glaive says as a full round action you can make a single touch attack or you can make as many touch attacks as your base attack bonus allows.
i read this as meaning feats won't help you make more attacks.

it also allows you to make attacks of opportunity.

if you make an eldritch glaive build focus on attacks of opportunity.

[only1doug]

eldritch glaive says as a full round action you can make a single touch attack or you can make as many touch attacks as your base attack bonus allows.
i read this as meaning feats won't help you make more attacks.

it also allows you to make attacks of opportunity.

if you make an eldritch glaive build focus on attacks of opportunity.

if you follow this route then look at feats such as Robilars gambit, which lowers your AC but gives a free Attack of opportunity every time someone attacks you. make sure you have something generating a miss chance if you do this.

[TypoNinja]

eldritch glaive says as a full round action you can make a single touch attack or you can make as many touch attacks as your base attack bonus allows.
i read this as meaning feats won't help you make more attacks.

it also allows you to make attacks of opportunity.



Not quite more like I'm manifesting a weapon out of energy and attacking with that, and it works like a physical weapon. Suppose I'll have to get a concrete ruling. The text for the record


(Blast Shape) Your eldritch blast takes on physical substance, appearing similar to a glaive. As a full-round action, you can make a single melee touch attack as if wielding a reach weapon. If you hit, your target is affected as if struck by your eldritch blast (including any eldritch essence applied to the blast). Unlike hideous blow, you cannot combine your eldritch glaive with damage from a held weapon.
Furthermore, until the start of your next turn, you also threaten nearby squares as if wielding a reach weapon, and you can make attacks of opportunity with your eldritch glaive. These are melee touch attacks.
If your base attack bonus is +6 or higher, you can (as part of the full-round action) make as many attacks with your eldritch glaive as your base attack bonus allows. For example, a 12th-level warlock could attack twice, once with a base attack bonus of +6, and again with a base attack bonus of +1.

Bold Mine. This is really telling me that I'm wielding a weapon. Furthermore, its attacks are based off my BaB so why wouldn't TWF work?



if you make an eldritch glaive build focus on attacks of opportunity.

I was thinking that, With fighter levels I might even have the HP to make robilar's gambit liveable. Not to mention Hellfirewarlock gives you a retribution ability, and close quarters combat lets me AoO anything that tries to grab me. I could be in a position to beat the snot out of anything that approaches me.

The thing is, my group is really not that big on use of a grid, so something so tactically based like AoO's may not help me much in practice.

I went with the fey feats because the cold iron damage reduction they provide stacks with the warlock DR. Seems like a good way to extend my survivability.

I am wedded to a warlock specifically, because I've never done one before and I think they look fun. Not worried about how the build preforms from a TO perspective, the games I play in aren't anywhere near that optimized so simply "competent" will suffice. I'm mainly worried about never being caught out going "I can't do anything to it" and actually being good at my chosen role, which is a sort of support blaster, who will mince anybody who comes after me.

Personality tends to grow more organically for me with new characters so I just make a theme and build a personality from there.

Edit: you got me while I was typing.


if you follow this route then look at feats such as Robilars gambit, which lowers your AC but gives a free Attack of opportunity every time someone attacks you. make sure you have something generating a miss chance if you do this.

I figure a cloak of displacement is high on my list of goodies.

[NeoPhoenix0]

i just thought it might be different because it still requires a full round action to attack once, this might be a good question for the raw q&a.

[TypoNinja]

i just thought it might be different because it still requires a full round action to attack once, this might be a good question for the raw q&a.

The language is clumsy to be sure, since everything it does is wedged in the middle and then at the end they say you can iterative attacks with it, but I think its pretty clear you are summoning up a weapon of energy and then striking with it.

[Fyermind]

I would actually suggest Binder // Warlock. You will have a lot of options. You will be able to do what ever you do all day. You can go hellfire warlock. You won't necessarily be quite as good at your main trick (eldritch blast), but you will have a lot of debuffing options. You could also select defensive or damage based vestiges.

[TypoNinja]

I would actually suggest Binder // Warlock. You will have a lot of options. You will be able to do what ever you do all day. You can go hellfire warlock. You won't necessarily be quite as good at your main trick (eldritch blast), but you will have a lot of debuffing options. You could also select defensive or damage based vestiges.

Are there Deities with Binder levels? My Gestalt rules means my non-warlock class has to be shared by my Deity of choice.

Also, I've never done Binder before either (though I know of its popularity for a dip) and I'm not thrilled on two new mechanics at the same time.

[only1doug]

I was thinking that, With fighter levels I might even have the HP to make robilar's gambit liveable. Not to mention Hellfirewarlock gives you a retribution ability, and close quarters combat lets me AoO anything that tries to grab me. I could be in a position to beat the snot out of anything that approaches me.

The thing is, my group is really not that big on use of a grid, so something so tactically based like AoO's may not help me much in practice.

Hmm, a reach weapon isn't as much help then, I can see why you want to short haft it.


I went with the fey feats because the cold iron damage reduction they provide stacks with the warlock DR. Seems like a good way to extend my survivability.

I am wedded to a warlock specifically, because I've never done one before and I think they look fun. Not worried about how the build preforms from a TO perspective, the games I play in aren't anywhere near that optimized so simply "competent" will suffice. I'm mainly worried about never being caught out going "I can't do anything to it" and actually being good at my chosen role, which is a sort of support blaster, who will mince anybody who comes after me.

Personality tends to grow more organically for me with new characters so I just make a theme and build a personality from there.

I've got a character with a similar theme that I'm using in a 1/month game I'm involved in. He portays himself as an Elven Wizard (while actually being a Changeling Warlock (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=8432) with a fey link). He won't be meleeing though, pure blasterlock (the floating invocation feat is my own homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255369), approved by GM).



Edit: you got me while I was typing.

Mwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahaha....



I figure a cloak of displacement is high on my list of goodies.

Good plan.

[TypoNinja]

Hmm, a reach weapon isn't as much help then, I can see why you want to short haft it.



I've got a character with a similar theme that I'm using in a 1/month game I'm involved in. He portays himself as an Elven Wizard (while actually being a Changeling Warlock (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=8432) with a fey link). He won't be meleeing though, pure blasterlock (the floating invocation feat is my own homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255369), approved by GM).




Mwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah ahaha....




Good plan.

I really really like the look of a blasterlock, but damage output seems really low if I get in serious trouble, the glaive gives me a damage spike to convince things to stay away from me. Or that's my hope anyway.

So I picture my typical play as just sitting back and EBing all day (With debuffy goodness, and support invocations like dispelling), and then if anything gets the bright idea to rush the caster I have a good answer. I'm certainly not planning on rushing stuff.

[only1doug]

I really really like the look of a blasterlock, but damage output seems really low if I get in serious trouble, the glaive gives me a damage spike to convince things to stay away from me. Or that's my hope anyway.

So I picture my typical play as just sitting back and EBing all day (With debuffy goodness, and support invocations like dispelling), and then if anything gets the bright idea to rush the caster I have a good answer. I'm certainly not planning on rushing stuff.

It seemed like a lot of focus on glaive for an emergency situation but its your call.

My plan with tarnueril (linked earlier) was to stay out of the way with spiderclimb (attack from the ceilings), I also have another (http://pifro.com/pro/view.php?id=8813) warlock (I'm playing him in Qwert-Chan's low tier competance test) who is specialised in remaining unseen (Via drow of the underdark darkness feats + optimised hide skill).

[TypoNinja]

I expect to resort to it often as party make up is going to be a me, a ninja, and an archivist. Depending on what the Ninja chooses for the other base class I might actually be the closest thing to a front line fighter we have >_>

It promises to be interesting.

[Chaosvii7]

As a swift action, you can choose to lose the benefit of wielding any reach weapon other than a spiked chain or a whip. In return, you can use that weapon to threaten and attack spaces adjacent to you. With another swift action, you can give up this feat's benefit in order to regain the use of your weapon's superior reach.

I think you've misinterpret the feat's effect. It does NOT allow you to use Reach weapons as double weapons, it only allows you to ignore the reach quality of the weapon. If you Short Haft a two-handed reach weapon, it simply loses reach. It is still a two-handed martial weapon.


A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him or her. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

[TypoNinja]

I think you've misinterpret the feat's effect. It does NOT allow you to use Reach weapons as double weapons, it only allows you to ignore the reach quality of the weapon. If you Short Haft a two-handed reach weapon, it simply loses reach. It is still a two-handed martial weapon.

Oops, meant Haft Strike, that one is for TWF with a polearm, I'll edit the OP!
Had the name right in my explanation, just not the list of feats >_>