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KillingAScarab
2013-04-05, 11:59 AM
Understanding the logic behind 3.x isn't always easy. It's widely stated that WotC didn't quite understand some of the implications of their own rules. Still, there are some very baffling bits to find in splat books. I'm hoping we can surprise each other with how disappointing or how mind-boggling they can get. Learn from the mistakes of others, they say. I'll start, but I don't expect anyone else to go into so much detail; this one was able to inspire me to ask others about bad classes as I warned about one.

Submitted for your disapproval: the shadowsworn. It's found in The Book of Roguish Luck, which actually has both Monte Cook and Mike Mearls credited for development, but that might just be for the things included from other Malhavoc Press books. The by line is Wolfgang Baur. But, let's not point fingers while the question which must be on your mind is...

What is a Shadowsworn?

You know how 4th edition took the Plane of Shadow and turned it into something darker and edgier? A shadowsworn would be what you would get if you took a 3.5 rogue/sorcerer into the future and dipped them in the Shadowfell. The flavor text promises, "powerful shadow magic," and powers which, "grow beyond mortal limits," but caution you will, "go invariably mad." I would expect there to be mention of Witchaloks (http://www.wizards.com/DnD/Article.aspx?x=dnd/drfe/20090401), but I don't know anything about any Witchaloks.

SHADOWSWORN

{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+0|Scribe Scroll

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+0|Darkvision +30 feet

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+1|Sneak attack +1d6

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+1|Shadow familiar

5th|
+3|
+2|
+4|
+2|Evasion

6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+2|Sneak attack +2d6

7th|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+2|Darkvision +60 feet

8th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+6|
+3|Summon shadow

9th|
+6/+1|
+3|
+6|
+3|Sneak attack +3d6

10th|
+7/+2|
+3|
+7|
+3|Blind

11th|
+8/+3|
+4|
+7|
+4|--

12th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+8|
+4|Sneak attack +4d6, summon shadow (greater)

13th|
+9/+4|
+4|
+8|
+4|Darkvision +90 feet

14th|
+10/+5|
+5|
+9|
+5|Shadow self

15th|
+11/+6/+1|
+5|
+9|
+5|Sneak attack +5d6

16th|
+12/+7/+2|
+5|
+10|
+5|Shadow strike

17th|
+12/+7/+2|
+6|
+10|
+6|--

18th|
+13/+8/+3|
+6|
+11|
+6|Sneak attack +5d6

19th|
+14/+9/+4|
+6|
+11|
+6|Darkvision +120 feet, shadow walk

20th|
+15/+10/+5|
+7|
+12|
+7|Shadowform, sneak attack +6d6[/table]


I don't expect anyone else to make a class table, but this book's class tables are designated as OGC and seeing this one really helps understand what's going wrong. This is with the errata (http://web.archive.org/web/20071110140606/http://www.montecook.com/cgi-bin/page.cgi?mpress_BORL_errata), by the way. While they picked up on one change which needed to be made to the saving throws, unorthodox saving throw progression is present, anyway. The poor saves are offset by +1 until you end up with +7. When I was new to 3.x, it took me awhile to understand how saving throws worked, and I wasn't the only one. New homebrewers take note: a good save is one-half of class level then add 2 (from the first-level bump), while a poor save is one-third of class level.

The errata also gave the shadowsworn evasion at 5th level, because that was missing from the book entirely for this class. They never did catch the incorrect sneak attack dice, with +5d6 printed twice and +6d6 on a level it shouldn't gain a die according to an, "once every three levels," pattern.

Printing errors and omissions aside, the table looks fairly busy, with only two dead levels. Why, you can get... scribe scroll as a bonus feat with a one level dip. At two levels you get darkvision if you didn't have it before, and if you did, it's extended. It will be extended three more times, actually. Wait until third level when you finally get sneak attack dice, and evasion at fifth.

What about all that dark power? Darkvision doesn't drive people mad, unless they try to convince the DM to make it work like AD&D's infravision. Don't worry, there's a spellcaster progression, too!



{table=head]Spells per day
{table=head]Level | Cantrips | First | Second | Third | Fourth
1st |
2 |
- |
- |
- |
- |
2nd |
2 |
0 |
- |
- |
- |
3rd |
3 |
1 |
- |
- |
- |
4th |
3 |
2 |
- |
- |
- |
5th |
4 |
3 |
0 |
- |
- |
6th |
4 |
3 |
1 |
- |
- |
7th |
5 |
4 |
1 |
- |
- |
8th |
5 |
4 |
2 |
- |
- |
9th |
6 |
5 |
2 |
- |
- |
10th |
6 |
5 |
3 |
0 |
- |
11th |
6 |
6 |
3 |
1 |
- |
12th |
6 |
6 |
4 |
1 |
- |
13th |
6 |
6 |
4 |
2 |
- |
14th |
6 |
6 |
5 |
2 |
- |
15th |
6 |
6 |
5 |
3 |
0 |
16th |
6 |
6 |
6 |
3 |
1 |
17th |
6 |
6 |
6 |
4 |
2 |
18th |
6 |
6 |
6 |
4 |
3 |
19th |
6 |
6 |
6 |
5 |
4 |
20th |
6 |
6 |
6 |
5 |
5 |
[/table][/table]{table=head]Spells known
{table=head]Level | Cantrips | First | Second | Third | Fourth
1st |
4 |
- |
- |
- |
- |
2nd |
5 |
2 |
- |
- |
- |
3rd |
5 |
3 |
- |
- |
- |
4th |
6 |
3 |
- |
- |
- |
5th |
6 |
4 |
2 |
- |
- |
6th |
7 |
4 |
2 |
- |
- |
7th |
7 |
5 |
3 |
- |
- |
8th |
8 |
5 |
3 |
- |
- |
9th |
8 |
5 |
4 |
- |
- |
10th |
9 |
5 |
4 |
2 |
- |
11th |
9 |
5 |
5 |
2 |
- |
12th |
9 |
5 |
5 |
3 |
- |
13th |
9 |
5 |
5 |
3 |
- |
14th |
9 |
5 |
5 |
4 |
- |
15th |
9 |
5 |
5 |
4 |
2 |
16th |
9 |
5 |
5 |
5 |
2 |
17th |
9 |
5 |
5 |
5 |
3 |
18th |
9 |
5 |
5 |
5 |
3 |
19th |
9 |
5 |
5 |
5 |
4 |
20th |
9 |
5 |
5 |
5 |
4 |
[/table][/table]

Ta-da! Just what you always wanted: spontaneous casting with fewer spell levels than a bard, but more cantrips. If you squint really hard, it might look like you have the spells per day of a sorcerer. You also get light armor proficiency but no exemption from arcane spell failure, even though the proficiency blurb goes out of its way to state that shields get in the way of somatic components.


So now you know that by 20th level you can share 5 4th-level spell slots amongst enervation, phantasmal killer, and shadow conjuration, along with a plane shift that only takes you to the Plane of Shadow. Wait, what? Why would you spend a spell known on that limited plane shift when you already get shadow walk as a spell-like ability usable three times per day at 19th level? No, clearly, you need to delve into the Open Game Content spells. Black spellbreaker sounds powerful.


This spell functions as grey spellbreaker except that the maximum caster level bonus is +10.


O.K., well, it's better than grey spellbreaker, right? So what's that do? In short, you poke people with a stick to use dispel magic on them. Except, grey spellbreaker is essentially a lesser dispel magic, since the caster level check is limited to +5. Black spellbreaker lets you use a 4th level spell slot to poke people with a stick to cast the real dispel magic. Oh, and the stick only works for 1 round/level. But there's no verbal component! It's sneaky!

...

What happened to the power beyond mortal limits? Well... there is one thing.

Spells

A shadowsworn is a magic user able to cast a small number of arcane spells. To cast a spell, a shadowsworn must have a Charisma of 10 + the spell's level, so a shadowsworn with a Charisma of 9 or lower cannot even cast cantrips. These spells are cast as if the shadowsworn were a specialist in the school of shadow magic (see page 19).

A shadowsworn does not require a spellbook.


A specialist in the school of shadow magic? What does that mean? The illusion subschool? Are you a base class with a master specialist prestige class rolled into it?

The School of Shadow Magic

The school of shadow magic is closely related to the school of illusion and somewhat more tangentially related to creation and necromancy, but it stands apart from all of them. It uses the power of the planes of Negative Energy and Positive Energy to generate spell effects, in the same manner that elementalists use the various elemental planes to generate their magic.


What?


All spells cast by shadowsworn are of this school, rather than the traditional schools they are associated with. All shadowsworn spells have the shadow descriptor.


What?!

That's right. This silly class is capable of overthrowing the entire magic system by turning its spells into something no other published source of material has ever dealt with, before or after the class's introduction. If you've got immunity to the school of necromancy, a shadowsworn can cast fear and it will still work on you... provided it overcomes your spell resistance and you fail the saving throw against a 4th level spell. Got protection from enchantments? A shadowsworn can still try to cast confusion or touch of idiocy on you -- it's shadow magic! Perhaps you are in an area where transmutation spells don't function. The shadowsworn doesn't worry -- it's shadow magic! Despite never existing in the rest of D&D, despite the author comparing it to the "creation" school, despite the author saying there are some kind of "elementalists" and despite the class and spells it uses having nothing to do with the plane of positive energy... it's shadow magic!

But what about the plane of negative energy? Why didn't I say it has nothing to do with that one? The flavor text says you're tied to the Plane of Shadow.

Enter the "unique" class features. It seems the author confuses in several places the planes of positive and negative energy with being responsible for light and darkness effects. Probably because the enemy in the monster manual this class most closely associates with has a negative energy effect. You have a spell-like ability at 8th level which lets you summon shadows and greater shadows (as if you were using the "summon" spell, yes, it doesn't say "monster" or which one) which you can arbitrarily communicate with mentally at a range of 10 feet. Then at 16th level you get another spell-like ability (equivalent to a 3rd level spell??) which lets you hurt/heal creatures in a 20' radius (no range is given) with negative energy... but only while they are in shadowy illumination (actual darkness explicitly foils it). You're using "the power of darkness" but it's negative energy. Supposedly, you are also "attacking from the shadows" but there's no stipulation on what sort of illumination you must be in.

It goes on, though, to venerate shadows by letting your actual shadow become your familiar, with the very important distinction that it is treated like a familiar in all ways except it gets "speak with master" a level earlier. How many other familiars have two nonabilities, are incorporeal and have the undead creature type replaced with magical beast (though if you had this at level 1, it would be treated as having 2d12 hit dice)?

The last of these class features worth mentioning is shadeform, the capstone of the class which lets you... turn into a shadow at will as if using the spell shapechange.

...

Shapechange doesn't let you turn into undead creatures. Even if it did, why would you want to turn into that one? Not even a greater shadow? It also is worth mentioning that all but the spell-like abilities of the class would become unusuable since shapechange means you replace your extraordinary and supernatural abilities and qualities (like the extended darkvision range).
tl;dr version: At best, this class is a magical rogue with less sneak attack dice and some third-party spells which let you slip under doorways or move at full speed while hiding (all but two of which can be cast by at least one other class). There's nothing which lives up to the promise of PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWER which breaks your mind. Why do I keep harping on that point? Because the Game Rule Information section states, “Wisdom allows a shadowsworn to resist the corruption of working with shadow magic longer.” The class lies to you on its own mechanics and might trick you into allocating your attributes incorrectly; there's nothing which requires you to make Will saves.

Let me amend that. There's nothing which requires your character to make Will saves. You, on the other hand, would be subjected to one every time your character gained a new class feature and you realized how underwhelming it is, or how it strangles itself into uselessness, or how no sane DM would ever allow it to function the way the author intended. Better yet, make the choice to never deal with “shadow magic” and be happier for it.

I hope this has been as informative and entertaining for others as it has been for me. I hope someone can top that.

JoshuaZ
2013-04-05, 12:17 PM
So, I actually like some ideas here. This is more an example of a class where with better editing it could turn out pretty well. It makes for a natural gish, and the sneak attack and most of that could be handled ok. The spellbreaker would be fine if it had a higher max (and the idea of being able to silently dispel things is actually potentially neat).

I agree that the shadow school thing is just weird and mechanically bad. It also isn't clear how it interacts with spell focus feats. This isn't the first time I've seen a third party try to introduce something that monkeyed with the basics of the spell system without thinking it through. But the idea of "you get low level spells, but they bypass the usual immunities to them" is potentially interesting. There are more dedicated PrCs which do something like that. This isn't by itself broken.

The fluff not meeting crunch, especially in terms of the going insane part is really obnoxious though.

Shining Wrath
2013-04-05, 12:27 PM
The idea of letting you cast certain oft-resisted spells with new fluff that makes them not so resistible has promise. This is not the class to fulfill that promise.

But inventing a class where you could cast, e.g., enchantments and call them "bedazzlements" and use them on targets immune to enchantments? Might work.

JusticeZero
2013-04-05, 01:40 PM
How about the 3.5 Soulknife? A 3/4 BAB front line combat class whose only abilities are an impressively dense list of bonuses with the sole purpose of simulating a standard-for-level melee weapon.

Kuulvheysoon
2013-04-05, 01:42 PM
Commoner? I mean, between the d4 HD, all bad saves and poor BAB...

JusticeZero
2013-04-05, 01:51 PM
No.
The Commoner performs exactly as advertized. It says "This is a horribly weak class for low-skilled non-combatants", and that's what it delivers.

This is for classes that are lemons - they do NOT perform as advertized. They claim to be contenders, then fall flat.

ZamielVanWeber
2013-04-05, 02:03 PM
How about the 3.5 Soulknife? A 3/4 BAB front line combat class whose only abilities are an impressively dense list of bonuses with the sole purpose of simulating a standard-for-level melee weapon.

I do feel the need to point out that all front line psionic classes got a 3.5 BAB because of their ease of access to Deep Impact and the like. It is actually rather fun to play as a throwing build for the soul knife and takes advantage of the free weapon.

Susano-wo
2013-04-05, 04:22 PM
that fclass reminds me of a lot of Mongoose publishing's 3.5 stuff. Really interesting ideas, clunky/inelegant execution

Though someone should be punched for telling a player to allocate a stat to something that does nothing for the class

KillingAScarab
2013-04-05, 10:17 PM
This is for classes that are lemons - they do NOT perform as advertized. They claim to be contenders, then fall flat.


that fclass reminds me of a lot of Mongoose publishing's 3.5 stuff. Really interesting ideas, clunky/inelegant executionThese are the sorts of classes I was hoping to encourage discussion about. Preferably (to me, anyway) strange 3rd-party stuff; is there anything from Mongoose you would like to share Susano-wo?



So, I actually like some ideas here. This is more an example of a class where with better editing it could turn out pretty well. It makes for a natural gish, and the sneak attack and most of that could be handled ok. The spellbreaker would be fine if it had a higher max (and the idea of being able to silently dispel things is actually potentially neat).

I agree that the shadow school thing is just weird and mechanically bad. It also isn't clear how it interacts with spell focus feats. This isn't the first time I've seen a third party try to introduce something that monkeyed with the basics of the spell system without thinking it through. But the idea of "you get low level spells, but they bypass the usual immunities to them" is potentially interesting. There are more dedicated PrCs which do something like that. This isn't by itself broken.


The idea of letting you cast certain oft-resisted spells with new fluff that makes them not so resistible has promise. This is not the class to fulfill that promise.

But inventing a class where you could cast, e.g., enchantments and call them "bedazzlements" and use them on targets immune to enchantments? Might work.Hmm... interesting that this has been picked up on. While reading the class, I get the distinct impression that one of two things happened to result in the school of shadow magic.

A.) The author's grasp of the magic system was so poor to think adding an entire school of magic is a normal occurrence.

B.) The book was edited in such a way that the author had no idea this would appear in it, like Bela Lugosi's unawareness of the context of his scenes in Ed Wood's Glen or Glenda.
"Pull the string!"
http://www.dvd.net.au/movies/e/06562-2.jpg

Either way, it seems likely to me that any weaseling around the existing protocol for spells is accidental rather than intentional. But, hey, if it gets gears turning about what could have been, there's a conversation there. I do think it suffers from a narrowness, first from only circumventing things at the level of the spell school rather than the subschool or the descriptors. I don't have any experience with anything like that, though I guess a specialist wizard could get around prohibited schools... somehow. Second, the moment a DM gives the NPCs protection against the school of shadow, the shadowsworn's casting is sunk.

As for the gish aspect, I didn't mention it in the post, but the class has a d4 hit die. There might be something in the class's spell list worth mentioning. I just picked black spellbreaker on a whim. If I do find something, that might be material for another thread on under-appreciated OGC spells.


The fluff not meeting crunch, especially in terms of the going insane part is really obnoxious though.


Though someone should be punched for telling a player to allocate a stat to something that does nothing for the classNo arguments from me on these points.

WhatBigTeeth
2013-04-06, 01:05 AM
Pick up any book by Avalanche Press. They have crap like skillmonkeys that get skill points as their sole class features (and still manage to have fewer skills than rogues, beguilers or factotums) and aztec-skinned wizards that spontaneously cast from all spells ever printed and freely determine the results of any dice.

Susano-wo
2013-04-06, 08:18 PM
As far as Mongoose goes, theres stuff in the Quintessential Monk like board (or anything else)breaking that is just...clunky. You have to spend X rounds focusing, then try to break it gaining a certain bonus based on X.

It uses concentration, which is cool since monks get it but have nothing to use it on normally, but the whole way they go about things makes is awkward and cumbersome to use. Should have just made it a special skill trick you can use if you have concentration trained and improved unarmed: make a concentration check to do extra damage with the next attack against an object, maybe

BUt that's not a class. For that, I present to you, to the best of my recollection, the Exorcist Power Class (basically a little booklet for $3 each containing a class. they had anything from nobles, to gladiators, to, I think a jester or something.

This class sounded so cool, and I actually rolled one. it has a smorgasbord of abilities, inlcluding the ability as it gains levels to use turning against elementals, Fey, and finally outsiders. it gave you true sight as an SP or Su (cant remember) (at like, lvl 18, but still), and it gave you this discern intrusion ability which leveled up--basically spot(which you got as class skill) to see if someone has been influenced, which progressed to knowing what kind of influence, and being able to scry on the influencer through the subject.

then, (did I mention smorgasbord?)you have Wards and benedictions. wards are objects that you put turn attempts/spells into to create certain effects, such as remove enchantment/possession, extra damage on a weapon to one type of creature you can effect with your turning, or a protection from evil charm.
benedictions are the same, except they are prayers, sort of like spells.

Now all this is cool, but there was some clunkiness in the way some of the abilities were worded(the prot. from evil weard described it as a 1ft circle :smallfrown:), and some of the stuff was just a mess. In addition to that, you got 1 spell per level per day less than a normal cleric, with 0s where you would have had 1s.

Now I understand that they had to balance the class features (they also jacked your heavy armor, shield, and dropped HD to d6), but that's a bitch when you tell someone to put spells into class features(though you got the spells back the next day like normal, and the wards stayed till used), then drop their spells per day. They did the same thing with skills, giving you a few more that you needed for the class features, but not giving you any more skill points/lvl than a normal cleric.

Again, a great idea, and could defintiely work (I'd substitute a narrower 'exorcist' spell list instead of dropping spells per day), but as is was a bit of a mess

Callin
2013-04-06, 08:31 PM
@Susano
I actually have those classes lol and OMG do they suck. Pretty much ANY of the Power Classes are Horrible. The Assassin wasnt too bad with the extra sneak attack dice instead of Death Blow. But yea.. bad bad bad classes.

The Apothicary in Bastion Press' Critical Hit System Torn Asunder is also pretty Lame. Its best ability is at 3rd level where it can Brew a Tea that can restore 2d10HP's and cure any nonmagical disease.

KillingAScarab
2013-04-06, 10:04 PM
Pick up any book by Avalanche Press. They have crap like skillmonkeys that get skill points as their sole class features (and still manage to have fewer skills than rogues, beguilers or factotums) and aztec-skinned wizards that spontaneously cast from all spells ever printed and freely determine the results of any dice.I did some searching on Avalanche and saw some notices like "2002 Origins Award winner for best supplement" for Celtic Age, along with some threads with things like, "Wow, are they finally cleaning up their act and getting decent covers?" Then I saw the cover for The Little People specifically for Celtic Age. No wonder that "Is Avalanche turning over a new leaf?" thread had a response along the lines of, "No! Don't turn over the leaf, it's the only thing the cover babe has on!" Also, apparently wargames are their main business, but there are wargammers for which the company, "cannot go bust fast enough."

As for the classes, I didn't find any tables floating around, but one of the very few classes allowed in Celtic Age was an unarmed grappling fighter which supposedly gets feats less often but had unarmed strikes which progressed worse than a monk (1d12 max)?


As far as Mongoose goes, theres stuff in the Quintessential Monk like board (or anything else)breaking that is just...clunky. You have to spend X rounds focusing, then try to break it gaining a certain bonus based on X.Hmm... if you simply focus for long enough, you could recreate the effects of the Megaton Punch minigame from Kirby Super Star. A single evil monk could hold the entire planet for ransom by threatening to break it.

Also, my experience with Mongoose is limited. I have the Ultimate Character Record Sheet they made and I loved it, not for being concise but for being the opposite. It has a last will and testament in it.


BUt that's not a class. For that, I present to you, to the best of my recollection, the Exorcist Power Class (basically a little booklet for $3 each containing a class. they had anything from nobles, to gladiators, to, I think a jester or something.

This class sounded so cool...It does sound quite good. This description really reminds me of the spirit shaman from Complete Divine.


...but there was some clunkiness in the way some of the abilities were worded(the prot. from evil weard described it as a 1ft circle :smallfrown:)So that's where Vaarsuvius' discount invisibility sphere (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0088.html) came from? :smallsmile:


Again, a great idea, and could defintiely work (I'd substitute a narrower 'exorcist' spell list instead of dropping spells per day), but as is was a bit of a messSounds quite straight-jacketed, yeah. Especially with class features which require skills to use.



The Apothicary in Bastion Press' Critical Hit System Torn Asunder is also pretty Lame. Its best ability is at 3rd level where it can Brew a Tea that can restore 2d10HP's and cure any nonmagical disease.By any chance does that tea require a rare component, such as a body part from a monster you would probably loose more than 2d10 HP in the process of hunting?

Susano-wo
2013-04-06, 11:36 PM
@Susano
I actually have those classes lol and OMG do they suck. Pretty much ANY of the Power Classes are Horrible. The Assassin wasnt too bad with the extra sneak attack dice instead of Death Blow. But yea.. bad bad bad classes.

The Apothicary in Bastion Press' Critical Hit System Torn Asunder is also pretty Lame. Its best ability is at 3rd level where it can Brew a Tea that can restore 2d10HP's and cure any nonmagical disease.

but you know what I'm saying, right? a lot of cool abilities, but really muddy execution

RE: Megaton Punch. I think there was some sort of soft limit to how long you could do it, but I can't remember. still would be funny, though :D