Maximizing 0-Level Spells

[Palanan]

This is a DM-only thread, so my players please zero out.



I've always had a soft spot for the cantrips and the orisons; they're innocuous little things, generally only good for supporting short-range comm traffic or, at their most aggressive, inconveniencing a hummingbird or two.

And yet, they do have their moments and their uses--even Know Direction, quite possibly one of the least-used spells in the PHB, right down there with Lullaby. It's hard to imagine a use for it aboveground, unless it's a dark and stormy night, and even underground a good mapper would only need it for the occasional bearing.

But a while ago I thought of a related spell that could be derived from Know Direction, that being Know Altitude, which would be extremely useful to anyone in the airship line; and now that I'm running a seafaring campaign, Know Depth seemed an obvious extension.

On a sailing ship, soundings with a lead-line can be done every few seconds in shallow water; it takes longer for deep-sea soundings, where the lead-line can run to 100 fathoms. Most mariners wouldn't be too concerned with deeper water--but any royal or private society interested in exploration might have an interest in pinging the bottom, to help with mapping of undersea features. Any well-funded expedition of discovery would want to cast Know Depth as often as possible, charting the ocean's depth along with other measurements.

And who would go on this mapping voyage? Not some high-priced, dragon-smacking wizard, no; it would be the arcane version of a graduate student, capable of casting a few cantrips but otherwise completely dependent on his academic patrons. This would be a first- or second-level caster, at most, which gives us six or seven castings a day as a baseline.

So, what else could be done to squeeze a few more cantrips out of our arcane grad student? He's desperate for your signature on his thesis, so he'll take whatever feats you ask him to. You already get his labor for free, and you don't want to spend a copper more than you need to, so no pricey magic items that should by rights be adorning worthier persons.

Under these circumstances, what else can you do to maximize his casting of this one 0-level spell?

[Sgt. Cookie]

You can cast a lower level spell in a higher level slot, so just have EVERY spell slot he has be this Know Altitude spell.

[Lans]

super Specialist Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1

Pathfinder you can spam 0th level spells

[HalfQuart]

Not a 0-level spell, obviously, but this reminds me of the 1st level Ranger spell Lay of the Land (SpC 131)... you could re-fluff it into Lay of the Deep to work similarly underwater. It wouldn't give the detailed depth chart that Know Depth would give, but would provide a good overview that could be further investigated.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by HalfQuart
...this reminds me of the 1st level Ranger spell Lay of the Land (SpC 131)... you could re-fluff it into Lay of the Deep to work similarly underwater.

That...is an outstanding idea. Not an easy spell for our arcane grad student, but a sea-ranger would have definite uses for something like that.

*scribble scribble*


Originally Posted by Lans
Specialist Wizard 1/Sorcerer 1

This is probably the way to go. Building on this, our grad student can take Arcane Manipulation, from Lost Empires of Faerûn, to double his casting ability from first-level spell slots on each side.

The first question that comes up is whether a bonus spell slot, from Intelligence or Charisma, can be molded by Arcane Manipulation the same way as a regular spell slot. I'm not aware of any reason why it wouldn't...but this is why we have the Playground.

:smalltongue:

[Lateral]

You play Pathfinder, baseline. Alternatively, get an item of use-activated Know Depth; if you're the DM, you can feel free to use the custom item rules for worldbuilding stuff like this. Call it one of the more common magic items in your world, if you like.

[Gildedragon]

Scroll scribbing before this gradstudent leaves would be the way to go too. Have a number of scrolls at the ready to continuously cast this spell.

As a grad student they likely also have access to some more expensive materials of their patron: pearl of power or a command word sonar type item that requires a wizard with kn. nature and decipher script trained to use.
the cost would be: 510 ish

And if one adds adhoc restrictions such as it using up the hand, arm, and ring slots (or hell, all body slots. it is a delicate device and magic around it can disrupt its functioning), and it using up a number of spell slots per amount of time (1 0-level slot per hour of use, perhaps) we can easily bring the cost down to 200 or so gp. Which while a lot for a lvl 1 spellcaster, it is well within the cost-viability of a university, naval surveying institution, or a rich patron.

[Pally din]

Before your Know Depth is usefull, you need to know where you are. This then gets into a whole area of navigation. Unless there is a simple Know Location (where you are), then you need other magics or Profession Navigator. Other magics could include: Know Time (what is the time at the current location, to include hours, minuts, seconds, but also day of the year), KnowDistance (from last casting of Know Distance). So, KnowTime can get you longitude on a sphere, and Know Distance can give you a hand on dead reckoning. KnowBearing (since last cast of Know Bearing) would also help in dead reakoning, since the ship may be pointed one direction, but sideslipping due to currents or winds. So, your grad student would cast a series of 0 level spells every so often, and be able to make quite a fair map. Id even throw in a MakeMap (or UpdateMap) 0th spell, which would depend on the accuracy of what the caster knew, ensuring that the caster likely cast the other oth level know spells.

[Icewraith]

Since these are all zero level spells they'd be pretty cheap to put in an item that you could sell to ship captains.

Also there are other useful things for an arcanist to do on a ship.

Such as gust of wind the sails if sharp maneuvering is needed or the ship is becalmed.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Guigarci
Scroll scribbing before this gradstudent leaves would be the way to go too. Have a number of scrolls at the ready to continuously cast this spell.

Hmm. The market price for a 0-level scroll is 12.5 gp; not sure how to calculate the price if you scribe it yourself. Even if you assume an arbitrarily low price of 1 gp per scroll, then even a moderate number of soundings could run you 300 gp per month. This is trivial to most adventurers, but not to university bean-counters.


Originally Posted by Pally din
Before your Know Depth is usefull, you need to know where you are. This then gets into a whole area of navigation.

I'm assuming a competent ship's crew, including a captain and/or navigator who can fix the ship's position by their own learned arts. Our grad student would be here just for the soundings.


Originally Posted by Pally din
KnowDistance (from last casting of Know Distance). So, KnowTime can get you longitude on a sphere, and Know Distance can give you a hand on dead reckoning.

That's a clever way to resolve the longitude, and Know Distance would be really useful for a ship's captain. I could see Know Distance as working in one of two ways: measuring from the previous casting, as you describe, or measuring from a fixed point that's been selected in advance, be it a marker at your home port or a rocky isle in midocean, etc. Both very cool ideas.


Originally Posted by Guigarci
As a grad student they likely also have access to some more expensive materials of their patron....the cost would be: 510 ish

510 gp?! For a grad student?!?! :smallbiggrin:

As a quick calculation, assuming a good sailor earns 1 sp a day (complete guess here), and assuming a ship's crew of 100, that 510 gp would cover the entire crew's salary for a month and a half (not including officers).

Remember, grad student = dirt cheap. He has to live by his wits and his spell slots.

:smalltongue:

[TheNoodleGod]

but imagine what it'd be like if cantrips went up with your caster level, like, a level 20 cleric creates an ocean with that water spell

[Gildedragon]

510 gp?! For a grad student?!?! :smallbiggrin:

As a quick calculation, assuming a good sailor earns 1 sp a day (complete guess here), and assuming a ship's crew of 100, that 510 gp would cover the entire crew's salary for a month and a half (not including officers).

Remember, grad student = dirt cheap. He has to live by his wits and his spell slots.

:smalltongue:

500 is the base price. It gets pushed down by slot use and the fact that it'd not be the grad student's property; but something they take on a lease from the institution sponsoring the expedition

Actually an even better way: Touch triggered trap of know depth. 150 gp; plus a reduction for it only affecting a wizard. and you get something in the 100gp range. It's unwieldy and hard to move around; but once on the ship the device is ready to go.

[avr]

So far as I know there's nothing printed exactly like it ... but might a reserve feat for a divination spell have this effect?

[Palanan]

Extremely good idea. I'm kicking myself for not having thought of it.

The one trick is that most reserve feats require at least a second-level spell slot available, and Wiz 1/Sorc 1 wouldn't have that option...at least, not without all manner of shenanigans I don't want to go into.

But I could definitely see a reserve feat like this once he's gone on a few of these sounding expeditions and gained a couple more levels. He'll be casting Know Depth in his sleep anyway.

:smalltongue:

[Venusaur]

but imagine what it'd be like if cantrips went up with your caster level, like, a level 20 cleric creates an ocean with that water spell

Uhh, Create Water does. You get two gallons per level.

[Ruethgar]

Extremely good idea. I'm kicking myself for not having thought of it.

The one trick is that most reserve feats require at least a second-level spell slot available, and Wiz 1/Sorc 1 wouldn't have that option...at least, not without all manner of shenanigans I don't want to go into.

But I could definitely see a reserve feat like this once he's gone on a few of these sounding expeditions and gained a couple more levels. He'll be casting Know Depth in his sleep anyway.

:smalltongue:

Precocious Apprentice, one feat is hardly all manner of shenanigans. A tranmutation specialist wizard with transmutable memory for infinite cantrips, now that is shenanigans.

[Flame of Anor]

You could just cast mirror move (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20000901a) to instantly annihilate the ocean, then explore the seabed on foot.


Mirror Move
Transmutation
Level: Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2
...
Material Component: Any reflective surface, including highly polished shields or armor and even surfaces of water, can be used for this spell.


A material component is one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process.

[Erik Vale]

Sure. You just need to find a reflective part of the ocean... Wait, lakes connect to that, ok, that spell used like that would probably have a diety immidiately use alter reality, to undo what you just did, to remove the spell from existance, and to remove the caster from existance.
It would make for a cool landscape though. And a good way for undead/other need not drink races to take over the world. Just wait and repeat the spell as needed until the water cycle can't support mortal life.


That is a nasty RAW rulling.

Edit: Hey, an item of mirror move would be cool for gishes. Just carry a few for different fighting styles, invalidate fighter bonus feats completely.
*Pats fighter on head*

For increasing number of level 0 spells one of the two versions of Magical Training grants +3 level 0 Spell Slots, and either +3 level 0's known for sorcerer or a spellbook with those three cantrips.
Only take-able first level, but that adds 3 castings if he's spamming it and would have started with it.
However, for what your looking for, and Item would do better.

[Thomasinx]

510 gp?! For a grad student?!?! :smallbiggrin:

As a quick calculation, assuming a good sailor earns 1 sp a day (complete guess here), and assuming a ship's crew of 100, that 510 gp would cover the entire crew's salary for a month and a half (not including officers).

Remember, grad student = dirt cheap. He has to live by his wits and his spell slots.

:smalltongue:

This isn't necessarily accurate.

While a grad student might not have much personal wealth, if he is performing some sort of research related to the university, they could have access to some of the university's magic items. Be it pearls of power or a custom magic item of know depth that the student made himself (in the process of pursuing his research). Of course he's expected to give them back when finished. :D

That's the thing about grad students: they have a powerful organization supporting them, even if they are on the bottom of that organization. This is also useful for story depending on how the PC's interact with this NPC.

[rot42]

I love your description of grad student life.

@Thomasinx: I think for the purposes of this thread we should assume that the relevant arcane university resources are completely devoted to grant writing.

There is a feat somewhere that lets you break down a spell into a number of slots equal to its level. It might be in some Forgotten Realms book; I believe I read it once before adding it to the ignore file. HalfQuart's suggestion of reworking Lay of the Land looks better than my idea to research a first level upgrade to Know Depth with a duration of concentration. Either way, hooking it up to a mapmaking version of Amanuensis would be handy.

I am not sure how much could be transferred into an interesting D&D game, but the story of the Carnegie (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_(ship)) and the mapping of the geomagnetic field is pretty fascinating history.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Thomasinx
That's the thing about grad students: they have a powerful organization supporting them, even if they are on the bottom of that organization.

The key assumption here is "supporting." Oh, so many ways to finesse that word. :smallamused:

I do see your point, that at best the university's resources are available to them--and that's certainly the case with library access, meal halls and the like. But I'm specifically looking at ways to maximize the number of 0-level spells that could be cast from spell slots, so for this particular case I'm assuming there's no item support.


Originally Posted by Thomasinx
...a custom magic item of know depth that the student made himself (in the process of pursuing his research).

That'll be after he finishes his thesis. In the meantime his advisor wants him to do it the old-fashioned way, so he'll appreciate the labors of earlier generations. :smallbiggrin:


Originally Posted by Erik Vale
For increasing number of level 0 spells one of the two versions of Magical Training grants +3 level 0 Spell Slots, and either +3 level 0's known for sorcerer or a spellbook with those three cantrips.

Ahh, thank you; I knew there was something like that out there. Fits the situation perfectly.


Originally Posted by rot42
...I think for the purposes of this thread we should assume that the relevant arcane university resources are completely devoted to grant writing.

Ahh, you understand how these things work! :smalltongue:


Originally Posted by rot42
There is a feat somewhere that lets you break down a spell into a number of slots equal to its level. It might be in some Forgotten Realms book....

Yup, that's Arcane Manipulation, from Lost Empires of Faerûn. --Unless there's another one that's slightly different? I should mention I'm open to anything from Dragon Magazine, since I know they've had fun with cantrips from time to time.

Also, very cool about the Carnegie. I've been reading about Cook's explorations in the Endeavour, and I'm also passing familiar with the Challenger Expedition, Fritjof Nansen's work, etc., but hadn't ever heard about the Carnegie. Very cool on its own, and definite story potential.

[Lost in books]

A comment on the Mirror Move spell: My opinion is you can't destroy the sea. But it is a DM call of how to interpret it. Let's look at the wording again.

Material Component: Any reflective surface, including highly polished shields or armor and even surfaces of water, can be used for this spell. Many spellcasters carry small mirrors with them for material components.

I bolded the key word, surface, it is not the item itself, so it is a DM ruling on what is his definition of surface. Is it .0001 mm? 2 inches? how many castings from a highly polished piece of metal or a mirror can you get? using water? I would rule that maybe you get to consume that top film of water in contact with the air since that is the reflection point. I think the last sentence on the spell is a statement versus a requirement for the spell. Because it is true spellcaster often carry mirrors as there are various spells that require them as focuses or material components.

Then again this is how I see RAW by my understanding when reading it.

[Flame of Anor]

A comment on the Mirror Move spell: My opinion is you can't destroy the sea. But it is a DM call of how to interpret it. Let's look at the wording again.

Material Component: Any reflective surface, including highly polished shields or armor and even surfaces of water, can be used for this spell. Many spellcasters carry small mirrors with them for material components.

I bolded the key word, surface, it is not the item itself, so it is a DM ruling on what is his definition of surface. Is it .0001 mm? 2 inches? how many castings from a highly polished piece of metal or a mirror can you get? using water? I would rule that maybe you get to consume that top film of water in contact with the air since that is the reflection point. I think the last sentence on the spell is a statement versus a requirement for the spell. Because it is true spellcaster often carry mirrors as there are various spells that require them as focuses or material components.

Then again this is how I see RAW by my understanding when reading it.

Yes, that was my objection to the exploit when I first heard of it. But it's still fun to imagine.

[Palanan]

...aaaaand back to the actual topic:

Right now, if my math is right, I've got our grad student casting 25 iterations of Know Depth per day. He's a specialist diviner wizard 1 / sorcerer 1, with one bonus first-level spell on each side for a (moderately) high Intelligence and Charisma respectively, plus the extra spell slot for divination.

With Arcane Manipulation, he's able to break each of his wizardly first-level slots into two separate 0-level slots, for nine 0-level slots all told on the wizard side. Assuming Arcane Manipulation works the same way for sorcerer spells, he has eight 0-level slots from his first-level spells, for a total of thirteen 0-level sorcerer castings. Magical Training gets him three more (casting as sorcerer), using the version from Player's Guide to Faerûn, although I'm not sure if this also gives him another 0-level spell known.

So, sixteen on his sorcerer side plus nine on the wizard gives 25. So far he's used his standard first-level feat for Arcane Manipulation, his human bonus feat on Magical Training, and since I use one flaw per character he could potentially take one more feat to fuel even more castings of Know Depth. Is there another feat that he could apply here?

[Gildedragon]

precocious apprentice; that's 4 castings of a 0 level spell

possibly houserule that high ability scores grant extra cantrips.

But ultimately, if the grad student is working for 4 hrs, that means they need some 2400 castings.

As such; non charged magic item is the way to go; or a spell with a non-instantaneous duration.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Guigarci
But ultimately, if the grad student is working for 4 hrs, that means they need some 2400 castings.

I'm not able to make the slightest sense of this statement. Where did the four hours come from, and how do they determine 2400 castings?


Originally Posted by Guigarci
precocious apprentice; that's 4 castings of a 0 level spell

I've been thinking about both Collegiate Wizard and Precocious Apprentice. The former wouldn't help directly, although it might give him some flexibility if he had other spells customized for marine research.

Precocious Apprentice would get him additional castings, true, but I feel like there's something else out there that might also work...just can't bring to mind what it is.

[ericgrau]

A 900 gp at will cantrip item may be expensive for a level 1 wizard, but it is cheap compared to an airship. Chain it to the ship with a lock and stamp property of so and so on it.

It seems like a shame to blow a feat or special ability on 0th level spells, so for a student who is better at it I'd make up a 1st level spell that grants more cantrips. 3 for 1 is reasonable IMO. Say you cast it then get 3 more level 0 slots to prepare cantrips in. You can do this while preparing spells, spend another hour to re-prepare all unprepared spells, or spend 15 minutes per empty cantrip slot. And then cantrip loving PCs might spend the 125 gp to get this spell in their spellbook. Heck make a 2nd version for orisons.

[Gildedragon]

I'm not able to make the slightest sense of this statement. Where did the four hours come from, and how do they determine 2400 castings?



I've been thinking about both Collegiate Wizard and Precocious Apprentice. The former wouldn't help directly, although it might give him some flexibility if he had other spells customized for marine research.

Precocious Apprentice would get him additional castings, true, but I feel like there's something else out there that might also work...just can't bring to mind what it is.


4 hours of research x 60 minutes per hour x 10 castings per minute = 2400 castings

So a sailing ship, as per srd moves at about 2 miles/hour, which means 1 casting per 15' of movement.
This might be a bit fine grained, so lets say you do it every 30', which is reasonable for a topographic survey, the number goes down to 1200 castings. Which is still a lot.
Assuming then, that one does a casting a minute, it is 240 castings, doable but the resolution is terrible as you get 150' between castings

The number of castings increases if the ship keeps moving through the day past those four hours.

[Palanan]

Sorry, still not following you. Still no idea where the four hours come from...or anything else. Clearly we're working from very different assumptions. --Help, anyone?

Also, since my seafaring campaign was inspired by the Patrick O'Brian novels, some of the ships I'm using are capable of 10 knots or more, meaning they can easily run off two hundred miles from one noon observation to the next. I tend not to consult the SRD on nautical matters.

:smallamused:

[Gildedragon]

four hours of research time. this being how long the grad student spends getting measurements. It is a conservative estimate. It could be 16 hrs or more... but that would preclude virtually any other activity

And faster ships only mean that measurements need to be taken more often to get good data, bumping the number of castings needed up.

[ericgrau]

4 hours of research x 60 minutes per hour x 10 castings per minute = 2400 castings

So a sailing ship, as per srd moves at about 2 miles/hour, which means 1 casting per 15' of movement.
This might be a bit fine grained, so lets say you do it every 30', which is reasonable for a topographic survey, the number goes down to 1200 castings. Which is still a lot.
Assuming then, that one does a casting a minute, it is 240 castings, doable but the resolution is terrible as you get 150' between castings

The number of castings increases if the ship keeps moving through the day past those four hours.
Unless you have a spell to precisely give you latitude and longitude (which would be more than a cantrip, btw), you aren't getting a depth every 6 seconds. The ship needs to full stop while a couple others take sextant readings for about a minute, then the ship moves again. Or the ship could move slowly and you allow a little imprecision on position.

[Palanan]

Hmm. "Good data" seems to be the pivotal assumption. This guy's not pinging constantly with sonar; I don't see how a low-level spellcaster could sustain one casting every six seconds for solid hours on end.

And, that's not really the aim here. Rapid-fire soundings really would require some sort of item, probably an incredibly expensive one. We're going for the low-cost option here, accepting the fact that castings won't be more frequent than every ten or twenty minutes.

Think of the grad student as an arcane version of the ship's leadsman, using cantrips instead of the lead-line. He's taking occasional soundings, not building up a high-resolution image with side-scan sonar.

That'll be Lay of the Deep, which is his dissertation project.

:smalltongue:

[memnarch]

Personally, I would fluff this student to be human, take precocious apprentice for a Div spell, and create a reserve feat that does the Know Depths effect with a 2nd level spell requirement. Should balance out because Acidic Splatter makes an acid orb of 1d6/spell level and acid splash is a plain 1d3. Heck, ray of frost is much worse than Winter's Blast in terms of results because ray versus cone. (both need 2nd-level spells)

It would depend on how much you want this grad student to have been preparing for this/these trip/s however.

[Gildedragon]

Not that expensive a magic item; about 100gp if hard to move (a trap) and (if one increases the price) paired with know direction and amanuensis to produce raw data on logs. As long as it is constantly triggering, one could assume it takes 1 reading per 2 rounds. (Trigger, then reset)
Making it easily portable raises the price considerably but a clunky finicky device that eats a couple spell slots a day and requires attending isn't ridiculously costly

It needs the student to be mindful of it, decipher the raw data, and keep a log of ship speed.

Trap output would be something along the lines of:
300 ft, 20° from N
345 ft, 20° from N
...

The grad student knows that, as long as the device is being constantly triggered (undead rat moving back and forth), every reading is 12 seconds apart. That combined with the knowledge of ship's speed gives fairly mapping data

Edit: actually know direction isn't needed. Have amanuensis copy a fixed spot on the compass, reading the number on that and voila 175ish gp
Edit 2: price can be further reduced by having it be a manually triggered trap. Instead of walking back and forth rat minion needs to push a button or the like

[rot42]

Yup, that's Arcane Manipulation, from Lost Empires of Faerûn. --Unless there's another one that's slightly different?

Nope, that seems to be the one. Good job mentioning it earlier in this thread before ever I thought of it. It looks like it does not work with spontaneous casting, as it specifies "[w]hen you prepare spells". I doubt anyone would call shenanigans on a Sorcerer using it in this way, though.

There are a few feats (e.g. Spell Hand, Complete Arcane 83) that grant a few spells 1/day as SLAs. It is not extra cantrip slots, but the effect is much the same. Magic in the Blood (Player's Guide to Faerun 40) is a regional feat that increases racial 1/day SLAs to 3/day. A more applicable similar feat might exist.

Innate Spell (Complete Arcane 80) gives a spell at will if you have some way of getting an eighth level slot on a grad student. That sounds like the sort of ability an Elder Evil might give, but this student already has a thesis adviser and they tend to frown on the competition. The feat with the same name in Player's Guide to Faerun (p. 39) takes a slot of the same level but only gives 3/day.

Echoing Spell (Secrets of Xen'drik 134) is a +3 metamagic that returns a cast spell to your memory at a lowered caster level. Requires 12 skill ranks, so probably also outside the parameters of the problem as posed.


Instead of walking back and forth rat minion needs to push a button or the like

What self-respecting university would waste resources on creating an undead rat when grad students are such a cheap and readily renewable resource?
:smallconfused:

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by memnarch
Personally, I would fluff this student to be human, take precocious apprentice for a Div spell, and create a reserve feat that does the Know Depths effect with a 2nd level spell requirement.

Well, both you and avr have suggested he take his research in this new direction. We should add you to this guy's committee. :smallbiggrin:

The reserve feat does make sense mechanically, and he does have a feat slot still open. However, he won't be able to take the reserve feat until third level--he needs one feat slot for Precocious Apprentice, and then another for the reserve feat itself.

It would completely change the dynamics, though, by making all his other efforts irrelevant. Ahh, that's grad school.


Originally Posted by rot42
...if you have some way of getting an eighth level slot on a grad student. That sounds like the sort of ability an Elder Evil might give, but this student already has a thesis adviser and they tend to frown on the competition.

Competition? Heh. Who do you think grants them tenure? :smallamused:


Originally Posted by rot42
...What self-respecting university would waste resources on creating an undead rat when grad students are such a cheap and readily renewable resource?

True, so true.

Besides which, once you start using undead rats, then the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Undead Beings gets involved, and the Animal Use Protocol Committee wants their Section D paperwork detailing how you followed ethical procedures in creating the undead rat, and you have undergrad activist clubs chanting on the lawn outside your building, all of which is a huge distraction.

Grad students are far simpler to create and maintain. No societies agitating for their protection, no tiresome best-practices documents, and the undergrads barely know they exist. It's better all around.



(Also, there's nothing like grad students for getting rid of those last few stale cookies after a meeting in the conference room. Undead rats just can't keep up.)

[Pally din]

Why can't there be more than 1 grad student, for shifts?

I think I was wrong earlier. For Know Time to give you longitude, you need it to give you the time back at your standard location. I'd either have it give this data in addition, or create 3 or so versions of it. One version could give time since last casting, or again, that could be lumped into the same spell. In short, either do your own history of navigation research not trusting me, or handwave it away.