3.5 - Help me with gestalts (I've never used `em)

[gurgleflep]

Greetings, ladies and gentlemen!
I've never played as a gestalt anything before, so I'm curious as to whether or not these are good combinations and how they'd work.

The ones in bold are the ones I want to know about most.
Barbarian/Dragon Shaman
Barbarian/Druid
Barbarian/Psion (Sorry guys, I like barbarians!)
Cleric/Dread Necromancer
Paladin/Samurai (I don't know which is better, CW or OA)
Psion/Paladin
Rogue/Ranger

I'm sorry for having so many... if it makes you feel any better, I've removed about twelve from the list.

I would like to thank you all ahead of time, as I have a tendency to either forget or use them in an excessive manner.

[navar100]

Barbarian/Druid makes for great roleplay. You get to be an animal with rabies.

[gurgleflep]

Barbarian/Druid makes for great roleplay. You get to be an animal with rabies.

"...with rabies."
Are you referring to the rage ability? :smallconfused:

[dspeyer]

Barbarian is tricky in gestalt because you can't cast spells or manifest powers while raging, and most of the things you would want to gestalt it with are casters or manifesters. Barbarian//Druid is workable, if you figure combat is wildshape+rage+fight and spells are mostly for out-of-combat. Prestieging the Druid into Master of Many Forms may be a good idea here.

A general rule of gestalt is not to use classes that are too similar. So Paladin//Samurai would be weak because all the Samurai is granting is its class features. Similarly, Ranger//Rogue isn't great, because Ranger is balanced around skills being important, and Rogue provides those. Paladin//Rogue is a lot better, since it gets the full advantages of both classes.

[gurgleflep]

*snip*
A general rule of gestalt is not to use classes that are too similar. So Paladin//Samurai would be weak because all the Samurai is granting is its class features. Similarly, Ranger//Rogue isn't great, because Ranger is balanced around skills being important, and Rogue provides those. Paladin//Rogue is a lot better, since it gets the full advantages of both classes.

Okay, so similar is bad. I'm still learning how this kind of stuff works, so thank you. :smallsmile:

[Nettlekid]

In order, of the ones you've suggested:

Barbarian/Dragon Shaman I could see working pretty well. You get full BAB, good Fort and Will (the important saves), you are a decent combatant on your own thanks to Barbarian and you end up passively buffing yourself with Dragon Shaman. It might be a little feat-heavy (do you want to buff up your damage with Power Attack stuff, or breath weapon with Metabreath feats?) but it does give you the chance to go nova with your breath weapon, and lay down the smack with Barbarian in the down time. Also the Con boost from Barbarian will up the DC of your breath weapon. Your skills will be very lacking, though.

Like people said, you can't cast spells in a rage, so Barbarian/Druid isn't too great. You could Wildshape and then rage, but the bonus to stats is pretty minimal. If you like the theme of the raging animal, go Bear Warrior in a non-gestalt campaign.

Barbarian/Psion. Um...I don't really know what to say. These two really don't go well together. The manifesting is your strongest aspect with Psion, which you can't do with Barbarian rage. One class's dump stats are the other class's main stats. The BAB doesn't help Psion really, and the buffs you could have would waste too much time on the Barbarian. Also it doesn't fit too well thematically.

Cleric/Dread Necromancer, now you're talking! Clerics make pretty good necromancers on their own, so now you have arcane and divine necro power. If the rebuking uses stack then you have pools of uses for divine feats like DMM Persist, if you go that route. Clerics get many good animation spells, and the Dread Necromancer boosts the potential of your undead creations. The only worry is that they overlap quite a lot, so if you face things that undead/necromancy doesn't work with, you'll be a little stuck. Unless you specialize your cleric in another way. Also there's not a lot of great stat synergy. I find that Dread Necro/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge or Master of Shrouds is a better combo, in a non-gestalt campaign.

Paladin/Samurai: No. Don't. As has been stated, they overlap a lot and you won't get a lot out of a gestalt. It'll be only as good as a Paladin, and a waste of the potential of a gestalt.

Psion/Paladin: Interesting. I think there's some feat somewhere that lets you key Paladin powers to Int. I know there's one for Monk, and there's one that lets Paladins work on Wis only, so maybe I'm getting that confused. If so, this could work because Psions have good buffing and blasting powers, and when your reserve runs dry you have melee might to back yourself up with. If you can't get that Int synergy then you're far too MAD, and I suggest going Ardent/Paladin instead for that Wis combo if you really want the psionic battler feel. But then again, there's not much that you don't get from Psychic Warrior.

Rogue/Ranger: Again, too much overlap. Rogue appreciates the full BAB and free TWF, but the skills are too similar. Better to go Rogue/Fighter for those benefits.

As for my two cents, for one half of nearly any Gestalt, I highly recommend Factotum. You get ALL skills as class skill and 6+Int skill points per level, which means you're pretty set for skills. Also 3/4 BAB and a good Reflex save. You'll also have a high Int, because Factotum is very SAD and Int fills in for many other stats. As such it makes a great combo for Wizard, Psion, or Warblade, all classes that like a high Int. Warblade bumps up the Factotum BAB, while Factotum bumps up Wizard or Psion BAB. None of those have good Reflex, so it synergizes well. Factotum casts a couple of spells that Warblade will like, and act as backup for a Wizard or Psion. And at 8th level Factotum gets the ability to once or twice a battle (depending on feat choice) give you an extra standard action, which ANYONE will love. It makes a great second half to a gestalt, and I suggest you check it out.

[JaronK]

Basic rules of gestalt:

1) Abilities are doubled, actions are not. Thus, abilities that use up actions (like casting spells) should generally be on one "side" of the gestalt, not both... a Wizard//Archivist can still only cast the same number of spells as normal in a given round. Passive abilities and long duration boosts are more valuable (like the Monk's Wis to AC or the Druid's Wild Shape), while abilities that add actions (like the Factotum's Cunning Surge) become amazing.

2) MAD is BAD. Wizard//Paladin is terrible because of all the stats you'd need. Combining classes that require the same stats to function (like Monk//Druid or Factotum//Wizard) tends to work a lot better.

3) Some abilities combine really well, so factor that in. Druid's Wild Shape works great with most melee combat abilities, while Factotum's Cunning Surge is awesome with spellcasting. Consider how your classes work together. Other abilities go together badly... Factotum//War Hulk is probably a poor choice.

JaronK

[gurgleflep]

In order, of the ones you've suggested:

Barbarian/Dragon Shaman I could see working pretty well. You get full BAB, good Fort and Will (the important saves), you are a decent combatant on your own thanks to Barbarian and you end up passively buffing yourself with Dragon Shaman. It might be a little feat-heavy (do you want to buff up your damage with Power Attack stuff, or breath weapon with Metabreath feats?) but it does give you the chance to go nova with your breath weapon, and lay down the smack with Barbarian in the down time. Also the Con boost from Barbarian will up the DC of your breath weapon. Your skills will be very lacking, though.

Like people said, you can't cast spells in a rage, so Barbarian/Druid isn't too great. You could Wildshape and then rage, but the bonus to stats is pretty minimal. If you like the theme of the raging animal, go Bear Warrior in a non-gestalt campaign.

Barbarian/Psion. Um...I don't really know what to say. These two really don't go well together. The manifesting is your strongest aspect with Psion, which you can't do with Barbarian rage. One class's dump stats are the other class's main stats. The BAB doesn't help Psion really, and the buffs you could have would waste too much time on the Barbarian. Also it doesn't fit too well thematically.

Cleric/Dread Necromancer, now you're talking! Clerics make pretty good necromancers on their own, so now you have arcane and divine necro power. If the rebuking uses stack then you have pools of uses for divine feats like DMM Persist, if you go that route. Clerics get many good animation spells, and the Dread Necromancer boosts the potential of your undead creations. The only worry is that they overlap quite a lot, so if you face things that undead/necromancy doesn't work with, you'll be a little stuck. Unless you specialize your cleric in another way. Also there's not a lot of great stat synergy. I find that Dread Necro/Ur-Priest/Mystic Theurge or Master of Shrouds is a better combo, in a non-gestalt campaign.

Paladin/Samurai: No. Don't. As has been stated, they overlap a lot and you won't get a lot out of a gestalt. It'll be only as good as a Paladin, and a waste of the potential of a gestalt.

Psion/Paladin: Interesting. I think there's some feat somewhere that lets you key Paladin powers to Int. I know there's one for Monk, and there's one that lets Paladins work on Wis only, so maybe I'm getting that confused. If so, this could work because Psions have good buffing and blasting powers, and when your reserve runs dry you have melee might to back yourself up with. If you can't get that Int synergy then you're far too MAD, and I suggest going Ardent/Paladin instead for that Wis combo if you really want the psionic battler feel. But then again, there's not much that you don't get from Psychic Warrior.

Rogue/Ranger: Again, too much overlap. Rogue appreciates the full BAB and free TWF, but the skills are too similar. Better to go Rogue/Fighter for those benefits.

As for my two cents, for one half of nearly any Gestalt, I highly recommend Factotum. You get ALL skills as class skill and 6+Int skill points per level, which means you're pretty set for skills. Also 3/4 BAB and a good Reflex save. You'll also have a high Int, because Factotum is very SAD and Int fills in for many other stats. As such it makes a great combo for Wizard, Psion, or Warblade, all classes that like a high Int. Warblade bumps up the Factotum BAB, while Factotum bumps up Wizard or Psion BAB. None of those have good Reflex, so it synergizes well. Factotum casts a couple of spells that Warblade will like, and act as backup for a Wizard or Psion. And at 8th level Factotum gets the ability to once or twice a battle (depending on feat choice) give you an extra standard action, which ANYONE will love. It makes a great second half to a gestalt, and I suggest you check it out.

So barbarian/dragon shaman is good and cleric/dread necromancer, paladian/psion's good if I can get it set up right, and the rest overlap on quite a few areas or just don't mesh together as well as I would hope, so it's nearly pointless to gestalt the two of them together.
What book can I find the factotum in? I hear about it a lot on here and keep forgetting to ask about it.


Basic rules of gestalt:

1) Abilities are doubled, actions are not. Thus, abilities that use up actions (like casting spells) should generally be on one "side" of the gestalt, not both... a Wizard//Archivist can still only cast the same number of spells as normal in a given round. Passive abilities and long duration boosts are more valuable (like the Monk's Wis to AC or the Druid's Wild Shape), while abilities that add actions (like the Factotum's Cunning Surge) become amazing.

2) MAD is BAD. Wizard//Paladin is terrible because of all the stats you'd need. Combining classes that require the same stats to function (like Monk//Druid or Factotum//Wizard) tends to work a lot better.

3) Some abilities combine really well, so factor that in. Druid's Wild Shape works great with most melee combat abilities, while Factotum's Cunning Surge is awesome with spellcasting. Consider how your classes work together. Other abilities go together badly... Factotum//War Hulk is probably a poor choice.

JaronK

Thank you for this, it helps me out quite a bit - both as a player and DM (but never at the same time!).

[Flickerdart]

While it's true that pairing two caster classes will not give you any more actions than normal, the flexibility of what spells you can learn is going to be a huge factor in whether or not the combination is viable. The same goes for pairing casters with barbarians, who can't cast stuff while in a rage. As long as you dedicate one side of the gestalt to pre-buffs (picking up spells with hours/level of 24 hour durations; cleric is great for this because of DMM Persist) and the other to in-combat actions (be it casting spells or raging) you should be fine.

[Gnaeus]

So barbarian/dragon shaman is good and cleric/dread necromancer, paladian/psion's good if I can get it set up right, and the rest overlap on quite a few areas or just don't mesh together as well as I would hope, so it's nearly pointless to gestalt the two of them together.
What book can I find the factotum in? I hear about it a lot on here and keep forgetting to ask about it.

Barbarian//Dragon shaman is OK. Good parts: Dragon shaman, as a passive class, helps almost anything in gestalt. Bad parts, You are pretty much just a barbarian with some auras and a little healing. No casting, no out of combat utility except for the little bit you get from auras.

Cleric//Dread Necro is great if you plan on using abilities powered by turning. If your DM allows Divine metamagic, for example, for DMM Persist or Quicken, and you can double up with your Turn pool and Rebuke pool, you are golden. Otherwise this one is kind of mediocre.

Barbarian//Druid works fine, you just have to focus your druid casting on long duration buffs and out of combat healing utility. It is actually quite a bit stronger than Barbarian//Dragon shaman. Barbarian//Psion is not quite as good, because psion doesn't have the awesome combat passive which is wildshape and it has very little ability synergy, but is still very powerful if you pick long duration or mostly out of combat powers. But you could, for example, be a psychometabolist, learn Metamorphosis, and turn into a combat monster before opening doors or on the first round of any combat, then rage after.

Paladin//samurai, as mentioned, is kind of awful, because so many of the powers overlap. A good paladin gestalt might be Sorcerer, for Good HP, BAB, Will and fort saves, strong charisma synergy, nice passive abilities from paladin, and the ability to cast 9th level spells.

Because 3.5 is so caster friendly, any really strong gestalt is going to have full levels in a class that can use 9th level spells or powers. You usually want exactly one.

[Icewraith]

Since dread necromancer gets turning (iirc) already what about Dread Necro/Archivist?

I'm not sure why people are dissing ranger/rogue to the extent they are. Rogue grants better and different skill points than Ranger (including UMD), you get 2/3 good saves, slightly better HD, full BAB, and an animal companion to flank with to make your precision damage reliable in melee or to use as a mount for archery. (you may want to make your animal companion better if you're going to do this though, there are probably six handbooks for that if you google it)

Both sets of class abilities key off of light armor usage and you get a set of free feats that ignore ability prerequisites (nice if you're ability drained). You don't suffer from action economy issues since you're using the same combat style either way. Rogue and Ranger also get a ton of love from alternate class features and variant classes (wildshape Ranger could be pretty good IIRC) if your DM allows them. If you like being social, careful favored enemy selection combined with investment in social skills can give you significant bonuses against most NPCs your DM is likely to throw at you. While MAD, the classes at least care about the same attributes in about the same order.

It's not as potent a gestalt as Warblade/Factotum, but there's pretty significant synergy there. If you like the sort of archetype that gets filled by a ranger or a rogue, the gestalt will do those things far more competently than a single-classed character.

[thethird]

My personal advice for gestalt is check the stats, it is really easy to overdo it and say man, I love factotums and I also think that paladinss are awesome, and then get yourself into a MAD mess.

So when building a gestalt first of all pick a class, for example barbarian

Check its stats dependence:

STR and CON (mostly)

then mark its important parts:

High bab, High HD, High Fort, Ok skills, Activated features (rage), Features that block other features (rage disables spellcasting), not a lot of adaptability

After that look at classes that have the same stat dependence, and preferably compliment the weak points of the class that you picked.

For example a class with:

Dependency of STR and CON (Or not a high dependency on other stats)

Med Bab, Med HD, High Ref or High Will, Ok skills, Passive features, features that can be used during rage, adaptability.

Will work really well.

Summing up imho with Barbarian either Totemist or Binder would be your best picks.

[Tsriel]

What book can I find the factotum in?

That would be Dungeonscape from D&D 3.5 on page 14.

[Gnaeus]

I'm not sure why people are dissing ranger/rogue to the extent they are.

It's not as potent a gestalt as Warblade/Factotum, but there's pretty significant synergy there. If you like the sort of archetype that gets filled by a ranger or a rogue, the gestalt will do those things far more competently than a single-classed character.

Its not awful, but it isn't great either. There is a lot of empty space between Rogue//Ranger and Warblade//Factotum.

What does Rogue really add to the ranger chassis? Precision Damage. Trapfinding, maybe an ACF or 2, 2 skill points.

A better core paring for rogue would be druid. You still have light armor, but now you have all good saves, better ac for flanking. Long duration buffs. And a power curve that keeps you relevant 1-20. Rogue gives druid better damage (like the ranger) but also good skills and a good reflex save.

What would a ranger like? Good Will save. Meaningful casting (for flexibility in combat and long duration buffs and out of combat utility. What does a ranger provide? Good Fort and Ref, Good BaB, good skills. Wizard or Cleric work better here.

[gurgleflep]

All of my responses are in bold within your quotes. This was quite a bit to respond to so sorry for the wait! :smalleek:


Barbarian//Dragon shaman is OK. Good parts: Dragon shaman, as a passive class, helps almost anything in gestalt. Bad parts, You are pretty much just a barbarian with some auras and a little healing. No casting, no out of combat utility except for the little bit you get from auras. A barbarian with auras seems rather simple, which is somethin I don't mind, it makes things easier on me.

Cleric//Dread Necro is great if you plan on using abilities powered by turning. If your DM allows Divine metamagic, for example, for DMM Persist or Quicken, and you can double up with your Turn pool and Rebuke pool, you are golden. Otherwise this one is kind of mediocre. Where can I find DMM? The DM of the campaign I'd be playing as one of these in will allow just about anything, as long as it makes sense.

Barbarian//Druid works fine, you just have to focus your druid casting on long duration buffs and out of combat healing utility. It is actually quite a bit stronger than Barbarian//Dragon shaman. Barbarian//Psion is not quite as good, because psion doesn't have the awesome combat passive which is wildshape and it has very little ability synergy, but is still very powerful if you pick long duration or mostly out of combat powers. But you could, for example, be a psychometabolist, learn Metamorphosis, and turn into a combat monster before opening doors or on the first round of any combat, then rage after. Barb/Druid I'm glad works good and is stronger than the Dragon Shaman mix.
Where can I find stuff on "psychometabolist?" I've never heard of it before

*snip*


Since dread necromancer gets turning (iirc) already what about Dread Necro/Archivist? What book is the Archvist in?

I'm not sure why people are dissing ranger/rogue to the extent they are. Rogue grants better and different skill points than Ranger (including UMD), you get 2/3 good saves, slightly better HD, full BAB, and an animal companion to flank with to make your precision damage reliable in melee or to use as a mount for archery. (you may want to make your animal companion better if you're going to do this though, there are probably six handbooks for that if you google it)

Both sets of class abilities key off of light armor usage and you get a set of free feats that ignore ability prerequisites (nice if you're ability drained). You don't suffer from action economy issues since you're using the same combat style either way. Rogue and Ranger also get a ton of love from alternate class features and variant classes (wildshape Ranger could be pretty good IIRC) if your DM allows them. If you like being social, careful favored enemy selection combined with investment in social skills can give you significant bonuses against most NPCs your DM is likely to throw at you. While MAD, the classes at least care about the same attributes in about the same order. I thank you for this, it's a different view on what other see as a MAD/BAD mix... I still don't know what those mean.

It's not as potent a gestalt as Warblade/Factotum, but there's pretty significant synergy there. If you like the sort of archetype that gets filled by a ranger or a rogue, the gestalt will do those things far more competently than a single-classed character.


My personal advice for gestalt is check the stats, it is really easy to overdo it and say man, I love factotums and I also think that paladinss are awesome, and then get yourself into a MAD mess.

So when building a gestalt first of all pick a class, for example barbarian

Check its stats dependence:

STR and CON (mostly)

then mark its important parts:

High bab, High HD, High Fort, Ok skills, Activated features (rage), Features that block other features (rage disables spellcasting), not a lot of adaptability

After that look at classes that have the same stat dependence, and preferably compliment the weak points of the class that you picked.

For example a class with:

Dependency of STR and CON (Or not a high dependency on other stats)

Med Bab, Med HD, High Ref or High Will, Ok skills, Passive features, features that can be used during rage, adaptability.

Will work really well.

Summing up imho with Barbarian either Totemist or Binder would be your best picks. Thanks for this, this helps quite a bit.


That would be Dungeonscape from D&D 3.5 on page 14. Thank you. :smallsmile:


Its not awful, but it isn't great either. There is a lot of empty space between Rogue//Ranger and Warblade//Factotum.

What does Rogue really add to the ranger chassis? Precision Damage. Trapfinding, maybe an ACF or 2, 2 skill points.

A better core paring for rogue would be druid. You still have light armor, but now you have all good saves, better ac for flanking. Long duration buffs. And a power curve that keeps you relevant 1-20. Rogue gives druid better damage (like the ranger) but also good skills and a good reflex save.

What would a ranger like? Good Will save. Meaningful casting (for flexibility in combat and long duration buffs and out of combat utility. What does a ranger provide? Good Fort and Ref, Good BaB, good skills. Wizard or Cleric work better here. Rogue/Druid you say? This sounds like an interesting combination. Thank you for that suggestion and the Ranger/(Wizard or Cleric)..

[Nettlekid]

DMM stands for Divine Metamagic, and it's from the book Complete Divine. It lets you choose one Metamagic feat that you have and use Turn Undead attempts to pay for that feat's cost in spell level increase. It's used to great infamy in combination with Nightsticks (from Libris Mortis, which give you extra Turn Undead per day) and the feat Persistent Spell, which makes a spell's duration 24 hours (only usable on Personal and fixed range spells). Clerics buffed with 24 hour Delay Death, Freedom of Movement, and Divine Power are melee forces to be feared.

I think by "psychometabolist" they meant Egoist, which is a Psion that focuses on psychometabolism powers. The way that an abjuration Wizard is an Abjurer and an evocation Wizard is an Evoker, Psions get names for their specialties. Egoists get a lot of body-shaping powers. Psions in general are in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and then more stuff is in Complete Psionic.

Archivist is from Heroes of Horror. It works a lot like a divine Wizard, with a spellbook that it can add to instead of praying for spells.

MAD means Multiple Ability Dependent, while SAD means Single Ability Dependent. A MAD class is one like Monk or Paladin, which needs lots of high ability scores to work well. A Paladin needs high Strength to hit and for damage, high Con for health, high Wisdom for spells, and high Charisma for Smite Evil and Lay on Hands. Contrast this with a Factotum, who get to add Int to nearly everything (attack, damage, saves, all at level 1. Then later to all Str- and Dex-based checks, AC, and then some). Because they rely on Int heavily, they can afford to have lower ability scores in other areas so long as they keep that Int high. So when Gestalting, it's good to have two classes whose ability scores work well together. Since Factotum want high Int, they gestalt well with Wizards and Psions who also want high Int. Alternatively, you can have different ability score focuses that work well together. Rogues like high Dex, and might want a good Cha if they're a party face. Sorcerers like high Cha for spells, and a good Dex helps them hit with rays. Both want decent Con for health, and both can afford to pass up Str and Wis. So a Rogue/Sorcerer makes a decent combo.

[JaronK]

Let's try it this way: how do you envision this character? So far all I really have is that you like Barbarians, but that doesn't really say much. In non game terms, how do you envision this character?

JaronK

[gurgleflep]

DMM stands for Divine Metamagic, and it's from the book Complete Divine. It lets you choose one Metamagic feat that you have and use Turn Undead attempts to pay for that feat's cost in spell level increase. It's used to great infamy in combination with Nightsticks (from Libris Mortis, which give you extra Turn Undead per day) and the feat Persistent Spell, which makes a spell's duration 24 hours (only usable on Personal and fixed range spells). Clerics buffed with 24 hour Delay Death, Freedom of Movement, and Divine Power are melee forces to be feared.

I think by "psychometabolist" they meant Egoist, which is a Psion that focuses on psychometabolism powers. The way that an abjuration Wizard is an Abjurer and an evocation Wizard is an Evoker, Psions get names for their specialties. Egoists get a lot of body-shaping powers. Psions in general are in the Expanded Psionics Handbook, and then more stuff is in Complete Psionic.

Archivist is from Heroes of Horror. It works a lot like a divine Wizard, with a spellbook that it can add to instead of praying for spells.

MAD means Multiple Ability Dependent, while SAD means Single Ability Dependent. A MAD class is one like Monk or Paladin, which needs lots of high ability scores to work well. A Paladin needs high Strength to hit and for damage, high Con for health, high Wisdom for spells, and high Charisma for Smite Evil and Lay on Hands. Contrast this with a Factotum, who get to add Int to nearly everything (attack, damage, saves, all at level 1. Then later to all Str- and Dex-based checks, AC, and then some). Because they rely on Int heavily, they can afford to have lower ability scores in other areas so long as they keep that Int high. So when Gestalting, it's good to have two classes whose ability scores work well together. Since Factotum want high Int, they gestalt well with Wizards and Psions who also want high Int. Alternatively, you can have different ability score focuses that work well together. Rogues like high Dex, and might want a good Cha if they're a party face. Sorcerers like high Cha for spells, and a good Dex helps them hit with rays. Both want decent Con for health, and both can afford to pass up Str and Wis. So a Rogue/Sorcerer makes a decent combo.

Thank for providing the sources and the actual names instead of abbreviations, they can be a nuisance for me, so I've written them down.


Let's try it this way: how do you envision this character? So far all I really have is that you like Barbarians, but that doesn't really say much. In non game terms, how do you envision this character?

JaronK

I'm basically tired of playing as the short tempered, simple mindead meat shield and I'm wanting to expand upon what a bit by giving something more. Stealth is fun, but they don't deal as much damage as I would like them to, otherwise I'd be asking about the barb/rogue or barb/ninja.
I'd like to do something more than go from a normal flesh-tone to a green skin-tone yelling "hulk-smash!"

Edit: I've never used magic or psionics, so I'd like to head in one of those directions. I understand how to use them both and have read up as much as possible on them.

[gurgleflep]

While it's true that pairing two caster classes will not give you any more actions than normal, the flexibility of what spells you can learn is going to be a huge factor in whether or not the combination is viable. The same goes for pairing casters with barbarians, who can't cast stuff while in a rage. As long as you dedicate one side of the gestalt to pre-buffs (picking up spells with hours/level of 24 hour durations; cleric is great for this because of DMM Persist) and the other to in-combat actions (be it casting spells or raging) you should be fine.

I just realized you had commented, I'm so sorry for having overlooked you!
I've read what you said and will wind up - if I ever get to play it - doing what you've suggested. Pre-buffs are a great idea. If I understand correctly, a barbarian/cleric would be a good combination.
What's a good idea of a caster/caster though?

[BHarkonnen]

Druid/Binder rocks. Su ablities carry over into wildshape. You can shop around vestiges looking for abilities/immunities and if online vestiges are allowed you can have almost any craft feat. Hell, you can have such versatility that each day you can be a awesome druid and posses crazy immunities, be the party face, be a skill monkey, glass cannon, or be a tank. Plus you get great roll playing opportunities if you fail a binding check.

For fun plus power, look no further than druid/binder

[gurgleflep]

Druid/Binder rocks. Su ablities carry over into wildshape. You can shop around vestiges looking for abilities/immunities and if online vestiges are allowed you can have almost any craft feat. Hell, you can have such versatility that each day you can be a awesome druid and posses crazy immunities, be the party face, be a skill monkey, glass cannon, or be a tank. Plus you get great roll playing opportunities if you fail a binding check.

For fun plus power, look no further than druid/binder

Where is the binder located? I've heard of quite a few classes on these forums - I love you guys and girls! - but not this one up until now.

[Flickerdart]

Where is the binder located? I've heard of quite a few classes on these forums - I love you guys and girls! - but not this one up until now.
In the first third of Tome of Magic, which is the only part of it you should ever read.

[gurgleflep]

In the first third of Tome of Magic, which is the only part of it you should ever read.

Thank you :smallsmile:
I take it you're not overly fond of that book?

[BHarkonnen]

@gurgleflep No, Tome of magic is great with respect to the Binder class. The other two classes, not so much. In fact Truenamer is often considered to be the worst class in D&D 3.5 (unless you jump right to Truenamer 20)

[gurgleflep]

@gurgleflep No, Tome of magic is great with respect to the Binder class. The other two classes, not so much. In fact Truenamer is often considered to be the worst class in D&D 3.5 (unless you jump right to Truenamer 20)

I've heard quite a bit about truenamer through the people here, none of it sounds good. I've been afraid to even look it up in all honesty!

[Flickerdart]

Thank you :smallsmile:
I take it you're not overly fond of that book?
The first section - vestige magic - is cool and flavourful, and except for its dumb monsters, is solid gold. The second - shadow magic - is basically a silly subsystem that combines the worst parts of warlocks and sorcerers. The third - truename magic - clearly had the mechanics added at the last minute without the slightest bit of playtesting, which is a shame because the fluff is amazing.

[gurgleflep]

The first section - vestige magic - is cool and flavourful, and except for its dumb monsters, is solid gold. The second - shadow magic - is basically a silly subsystem that combines the worst parts of warlocks and sorcerers. The third - truename magic - clearly had the mechanics added at the last minute without the slightest bit of playtesting, which is a shame because the fluff is amazing.

I'll have to look through those bits of the book then.
What exactly is fluff? It's another of the terms I don't know.

[Flickerdart]

I'll have to look through those bits of the book then.
What exactly is fluff? It's another of the terms I don't know.
Fluff is the flavour and descriptions of something. It is one half of what usually goes into a D&D supplement, the other half being crunch - all the stuff that is expressed as rules in the system. So if I described a character as a wandering knight who does battle with evil, that's the character's fluff. In crunch terms he could be a paladin or a fighter or a cleric or a knight or an esoteric combination of ten different classes and prestige classes.

[BHarkonnen]

Fluff is basically the background and story of the class. It's the information you use to roleplay the character.

You should also know that people will talk about the "crunch" of a class, which is the actual class mechanics.

In otherwords, Truenamer has an interesting backstory, but terrible crunch.

[gurgleflep]

Fluff is the flavour and descriptions of something. It is one half of what usually goes into a D&D supplement, the other half being crunch - all the stuff that is expressed as rules in the system. So if I described a character as a wandering knight who does battle with evil, that's the character's fluff. In crunch terms he could be a paladin or a fighter or a cleric or a knight or an esoteric combination of ten different classes and prestige classes.


Fluff is basically the background and story of the class. It's the information you use to roleplay the character.

You should also know that people will talk about the "crunch" of a class, which is the actual class mechanics.

In otherwords, Truenamer has an interesting backstory, but terrible crunch.

Thank you both, I've now acquired two new terms for my D&D vocabulary!

[JaronK]

Based on what you've said (you like the melee types but want something more to do, and you want to deal damage) it sounds like Tome of Battle is what you really need.

Warblade//Factotum might be exactly perfect, actually. You can be like Conan the Barbarian... wild but smart, with plenty of tricks up your sleeve.

JaronK

[gurgleflep]

Based on what you've said (you like the melee types but want something more to do, and you want to deal damage) it sounds like Tome of Battle is what you really need.

Warblade//Factotum might be exactly perfect, actually. You can be like Conan the Barbarian... wild but smart, with plenty of tricks up your sleeve.

JaronK

Ooh, Conan. I quite like the sound of this now..
I favor the old over the new, but either way that's awesome. Thank you. :smallbiggrin:

[thethird]

Warblade // Factotum is ye olde Conan the Barb, from the books 8 parts rogue, 1 parts cleric of Crom and 1 part barbarian.

Warblade can be found in Tome of battle and a pretty neat handbook can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176968). It also has the benefit of having all of its resources for free online. It has high BAB, High HD, Good Fort, Bad Reflex, Bad Will, Meh Skill points, and most of its abilities take actions. State based it is mostly a melee fighter (So physical stats are useful) that benefits from high intelligence.

Factotum can be found in Dungeonscape and there are a few handbooks over the internet. When I played one I used this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272130) as reference, it has 3 other handbooks reference (in case you want to do a more extensive reading). It has med BAB, med HD, Bad Fort, Good Ref, Bad Will, awesome skills, and most of its abilities do not take ctions. It is focused on stealth and adaptability (complementing really well the Warblade) with a focus for int.

Overall with a Factotum//Warblade you are going to have fun, dable in some spells and supernatural attacks but it will still fell as a Conan or a melee fighter. It is also a really solid gestalt.

Of course, if you want to get into spellcasting psionics Warblade meshes well with wizard (arcane spellcasting), archivist (divine spellcasting, heroes of horror), psion (psionics), erudite (psionics, complete psionic) since all of them have a focus on int. Still imho, give the Factotum//Warblade a try.

[BHarkonnen]

Factotum is pretty much perfect for one half of any Gestalt build. The problem is that it may be too perfect. If you keep taking the Font of Inspiration Feat, you'll be able to to take a bunch of extra standard actions during your turn.

Extra actions are what really improves a gestalt character because while you are a combo of two characters, you only get one turn. By exploding the action economy with factotum, you might either anger your DM or make other players feel eclipsed. I am in a Gestalt campaign right now, and my DM banned Factotum for this very reason.

If it's on the table, take it, but keep in mind that being too awesome is really just as bad as being terrible. If your other party members (I don't remember if you said what they are playing) play things like Fighter//Wizard or Monk//Bard, you may want to not take so many Font of Inspiration feats or play Warblade//Rogue.

Warblade//Rogue would give you all the good warblade stuff and bring skills including UMD, Sneak attack damage, and some passive class features like evasion, slippery mind, and uncanny dodge.

[gurgleflep]

I'll put my answers in bold after tidbits of your responses. It makes things simpler for me, I won't have to scroll back and forth.


Warblade // Factotum is ye olde Conan the Barb, from the books 8 parts rogue, 1 parts cleric of Crom and 1 part barbarian.

Warblade can be found in Tome of battle and a pretty neat handbook can be found here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=176968). It also has the benefit of having all of its resources for free online. It has high BAB, High HD, Good Fort, Bad Reflex, Bad Will, Meh Skill points, and most of its abilities take actions. State based it is mostly a melee fighter (So physical stats are useful) that benefits from high intelligence. Thank you for the link, I'll check that out now.

Factotum can be found in Dungeonscape and there are a few handbooks over the internet. When I played one I used this one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=272130) as reference, it has 3 other handbooks reference (in case you want to do a more extensive reading). It has med BAB, med HD, Bad Fort, Good Ref, Bad Will, awesome skills, and most of its abilities do not take ctions. It is focused on stealth and adaptability (complementing really well the Warblade) with a focus for int. Thanks for this link as well.
I like stealth, it's fun to be sneaky.

Overall with a Factotum//Warblade you are going to have fun, dable in some spells and supernatural attacks but it will still fell as a Conan or a melee fighter. It is also a really solid gestalt. Any particular spell types? I don't often use magic, in the past five or so I've played, only one used any.

Of course, if you want to get into spellcasting psionics Warblade meshes well with wizard (arcane spellcasting), archivist (divine spellcasting, heroes of horror), psion (psionics), erudite (psionics, complete psionic) since all of them have a focus on int. Still imho, give the Factotum//Warblade a try. Erudite? I'll take a look into it, as I've not heard of it,
I'll try out the Factotum//Warblade, you - and quite a few others - have suggested a fair amount.


Factotum is pretty much perfect for one half of any Gestalt build. The problem is that it may be too perfect. If you keep taking the Font of Inspiration Feat, you'll be able to to take a bunch of extra standard actions during your turn. Where can I find the Font of Inspiration feat, is it in the same book as the Factotum?

Extra actions are what really improves a gestalt character because while you are a combo of two characters, you only get one turn. By exploding the action economy with factotum, you might either anger your DM or make other players feel eclipsed. I am in a Gestalt campaign right now, and my DM banned Factotum for this very reason. The DM in question is pretty relaxed about everything, so he'll most likely allow it.

If it's on the table, take it, but keep in mind that being too awesome is really just as bad as being terrible. If your other party members (I don't remember if you said what they are playing) play things like Fighter//Wizard or Monk//Bard, you may want to not take so many Font of Inspiration feats or play Warblade//Rogue. I haven't said what they were playing, only because they don't tend to think of character ideas before the game day.

Warblade//Rogue would give you all the good warblade stuff and bring skills including UMD, Sneak attack damage, and some passive class features like evasion, slippery mind, and uncanny dodge. What are UMD and slippery mind?

[JaronK]

Font of Inspiration is a feat from an online suppliment that gives more Inspiration Points (which fuel a lot of the Factotum abilities). A lot of people swear by it, but I actually find it's not that great... you want to take it 3-4 times, but there's no point after that, and it's useless if you take it only once, so I often skip it entirely. There's just so many other good feats!

As for spells to take as a Factotum, remember that Factotum spells are sp abilities, so they take a standard action to cast if they would have taken longer. This means some spells that have a long cast time (such as Ghoul Glyph and Major Creation) are WAY more powerful as a Factotum.

But either way, Factotum//Warblade makes you a clever sneaky feral warrior with a lot of tricks up your sleeve. That sounds like what you wanted.

JaronK

[Karnith]

For reference, the feat Font of Inspiration can be found in this article over here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606).

[gurgleflep]

Font of Inspiration is a feat from an online suppliment that gives more Inspiration Points (which fuel a lot of the Factotum abilities). A lot of people swear by it, but I actually find it's not that great... you want to take it 3-4 times, but there's no point after that, and it's useless if you take it only once, so I often skip it entirely. There's just so many other good feats!

As for spells to take as a Factotum, remember that Factotum spells are sp abilities, so they take a standard action to cast if they would have taken longer. This means some spells that have a long cast time (such as Ghoul Glyph and Major Creation) are WAY more powerful as a Factotum.

But either way, Factotum//Warblade makes you a clever sneaky feral warrior with a lot of tricks up your sleeve. That sounds like what you wanted.

JaronK

Thank you for explaining that. This is starting to sound more and more like what I'm going to end up playing :smallsmile:
What would a good race for this be? I tend to favor elves and orcs of all kinds, hybrids included. Szarkai/Drow maybe?

[gurgleflep]

For reference, the feat Font of Inspiration can be found in this article over here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606).

Thank you for linking me to this. Your comment snuck up on me! :smalltongue:

[Nettlekid]

Factotums get very few spells. At level 20 they end up being able to cast only 8 spells per day, one of 7th level and the rest of 6th or lower. They also can't cast the same spell more than once per day. So for a Barbarian or Warblade, you'd want to focus more on long-term buffs and essentials rather than utility. If a spell isn't essentially useful, don't prepare it, especially if you don't know what to expect for the day and are just covering your bases. And prepare things that melee types would never be able to do normally. I recommend things like say Teleport, or Plane Shift. Just in case. If you want to pretend to be a Druid, Draconic Polymorph (from Draconomicon) is pretty awesome, and can pump up your Strength to insane levels. A versatile spell like Shadow Evocation or Shadow Conjuration picks up the slack of inflexibility in a pinch.

Erudite is very complicated, and I suggest not playing it if you're still inexperienced, especially in the realm of spellcasters. Erudite is kind of like to a Psion what a Wizard is to a Sorcerer. Like a Sorcerer, a Psion learns only a few different powers while they level up, and can choose which to use at will. An Erudite, like a Wizard, learn two new powers automatically each level (which is much more than a Psion already) and then can learn powers from other psionic characters and from power stones the same way Wizards can learn new spells from other wizards and scrolls. As a result, Erudites can learn almost any power. Their only limitation is that they get Unique Powers per Day, which works like this. Let's say you have 3 unique powers per day, and you know five powers. If you use one of those five powers, you've used one of your unique powers per day. You can use it as much as you want, so long as you have the power points for it. If you use a different power, that's another one of your UPDs used. Once you use a third different power, that's all your UPDs used up. From that point on, you can use any of those three powers you used before, but you cannot use any new powers. It's a bit tricky to understand, but it basically means that you will never use ALL the powers you know in a single day. Also, there is discrepancy whether the Erudite's UPD is by level or all powers known. So is it 3 different 1st level powers per day, or 3 different powers per day? We believe it's the former, which is a lot better.

But that's not even what makes the Erudite super-broken. What makes it super-broken is that there's an online variant that lets you learn Arcane spells and turn them into powers, treating them like any other power you know. It opens the doors for all kinds of madness, where you can learn any power and any arcane spell (and any spell that can be made arcane, like any divine spell learned by a Wyrm Wizard or a Recaster (who are arcane casters with the power to learn a few spells from ANY list)). Like I said, Erudites are complicated.

You know, you CAN Google these things. Font of Inspiration is found here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) It's only online. It gets better the more times you take it, so it's a heavy commitment and you might not want to take it if you're just using Factotum to support a melee character. Or maybe you do. Who knows.

UMD stands for Use Magic Device, which is a useful skill which allows you to use items like scrolls and wands without having the spell you're calling forth on your class' spell list (you don't have a class spell list.) By using these items liberally you can be prepared for any situation, so long as you buy the right items. Slippery Mind is a Rogue special ability which lets you reroll a failed Will save against an Enchantment effect one turn later. So if you get Dominated or something, you might start to attack your allies, but then you get your one reroll and you break out of it and you're okay. It's useful, but I don't think it's essential.

EDIT: As far as races go, you have a few options. If you intend to take feats like Power Attack, Leap Attack, and Shock Trooper to do tons of damage on a charge, then any kind of Orc with their +4 Str (although they do also have -2 Int which is very bad) is neat because you can take the Headlong Rush feat which doubles your damage on a charge. Alternatively, a race like the Gray Elf, which gets a +2 to Int, is good because both of your classes like high Int. There aren't a ton of +Int races, though.

[gurgleflep]

*snip*

You know, you CAN Google these things. Font of Inspiration is found here. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606) It's only online. It gets better the more times you take it, so it's a heavy commitment and you might not want to take it if you're just using Factotum to support a melee character. Or maybe you do. Who knows.

*snip*

As embarassing/awkward as it is, I hadn't even thought about Googling the stuff... :smallredface: Sorry.
I thank you for helping out as much as you have though, it's greatly appreciated. I feel like a jerk now.

[JaronK]

Thank you for explaining that. This is starting to sound more and more like what I'm going to end up playing :smallsmile:
What would a good race for this be? I tend to favor elves and orcs of all kinds, hybrids included. Szarkai/Drow maybe?

Race isn't all that critical, really. I prefer stealthy types, so I go for things like Necropolitan Whispergnome. It sounds like you want something more savage (but don't get an Int penalty!), and I strongly recommend not having LA... honestly I'd likely go human. In gestalt, lack of feats hurts.

JaronK

[Nettlekid]

That's true, human is a pretty good choice here. Gestalts can be pretty hard on feats since many classes are feat-intensive, and gestalts have to spend feats on both classes. If you spent all feats on Font of Inspiration, then you'll have no Power Attack for Warblade, and that's not good. So the extra feat will do you good. And Factotums love skill points. The Human Paragon "prestige class" (what do you even call those?) in Unearthed Arcana can be used to get yet another bonus feat and a +2 bonus to any stat you want (Hint: Int). If you plan to go 20 Factotum (or 17 with those three levels of Human Paragon, and I would recommend taking it out of the Factotum side rather than the Warblade side because Dual Stance is awesome), then the 1st level Human Paragon ability is useless to you because it makes one skill is always a class skill, and all your skills are class skills. But if you leave Factotum at like level 8 or 11 or so (those are good drop levels, because the higher level Factotum abilities are, while nice, not super awesome) then you can be assured that you'll keep the possibly rare and useful skill that you want as a class skill. Like Use Magic Device, which not a ton of classes get.

[BHarkonnen]

Human is a great race for gestalt. Feats are what you want for a gestalt build and you might want to see if you can sly in one or two flaws from Unearthed Arcana so you can build up your Warblade while taking Font of inspiration as well.

Make sure you read up on UMD, it's pretty much the most versatile skill and it will allow you to stay relevant to more situations that don't involve combat. Factotum does have a little bit to do in any situation, but UMD gives you more bang for your skill bucks.

Sounds like you found your classes. Hope you have a good game.

[ksbsnowowl]

Warblade//Rogue would give you all the good warblade stuff and bring skills including UMD, Sneak attack damage, and some passive class features like evasion, slippery mind, and uncanny dodge.I actually find Scout to be a better option, as skirmish is passive, and when you are activating a strike, you've generally still got your move action to use, allowing you to activate your skirmish for use with your strike. Around 10th level, get the stance that allows you an extra 5-foot step, so you can 10-foot step, then full attack.

Also, with gestalt it becomes more likely that your foes might have Uncanny Dodge, and thus making it harder for you to get your sneak attack.

Sadly, scout would give up on the Use Magic Device. Maybe splitting the levels as Scout 10/Rogue 10 could give you some of both.



As for spells to take as a Factotum, remember that Factotum spells are sp abilities, so they take a standard action to cast if they would have taken longer. This means some spells that have a long cast time (such as Ghoul Glyph and Major Creation) are WAY more powerful as a Factotum.

???

The SRD disagrees with you (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities).


A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated.

[Karnith]

???

The SRD disagrees with you (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities).
The Rules Compendium has different language for spell-like abilities, and under any sane treatment of primary source rules it trumps the SRD. Specifically, the RC states that:
Using a spell-like ability usually takes 1 standard action and provokes attacks of opportunity unless otherwise noted. If the spell-like ability duplicates a spell that has a casting time of less than 1 standard action, the spell-like ability has that casting time.

[thethird]

Thank you for explaining that. This is starting to sound more and more like what I'm going to end up playing :smallsmile:
What would a good race for this be? I tend to favor elves and orcs of all kinds, hybrids included. Szarkai/Drow maybe?

Being a lesser drow (player's guide to faerun) or a drow (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a) without LA works quite fine. The big HD of the Warblade will make the con penalty not hurt as much as it would in other classes.

As other said, feats are tight on gestalt, so humans are great there, and an extra skill point is always nice as a factotum.