Need help with Crusader (ToB) gestalt character

[Count_Jaschk]

As the title says, I need som help with creating a Crusader (ToB) in a gestalt game.

We're level 20, which includes LA from templates. All 3.5 content is open and also the Blademaster PrC from Wheel of Time.

Good alligned isn't a prerequisite but it's prefered by our gm that we at least stick within one step of Good. So whilst Evil is an option it's bad for party synergy. Besides, I'm not keen on playing evil. xD

Templates eat levels on both sides. (evil dungeon master)

Abilities are rolled, 4d6, reroll 1-2, pick three highest. Roll as many lines as you want and pick any of them. (This makes for some awesome ability scores :P)

I've been considering making a Hellbred (Fiendish Codex II) for flavor and because access to devil-ish feats is kinda cool when playing evil. Also cool to use evil items as LG without any kind of penalty, even when playing a paladin.

My current set up is pure crusader on one side followed by fighter 2, marshal 1, knight 9, paladin 4, fist of raziel 4 and my feats are:

Combat Reflexes
Power Attack
Cleave
Servant of the Heavens
Extra Granted Maneuver
Martial Stance
Stone Power
Robilar’s Gambit
these does not include the feats granted by classes and hellbred with Infernal Aspect: Body

Crusader levels are for maximum granted maneuvers/ round and maximum steely resolve + furious counterstrike

Fighter is for feats, Marshal for cha to confirm crits (we wont be tripping anything because every monster we meet are either immune or too big for us to trip, bullrush, etc, etc), Knight for challenge and shield ally, threatened area counts as difficult terrain etc, etc.

Paladin is for flavor, saves and smites and Fist of Raziel for more flavor and cool smite augmentation.


I'm open for c&c and any help as how to improve this would be much appreciated.

I apologize in advance for spelling errors xD

[navar100]

Incarnate - Magic Of Incarnum

You get nice self buffs to suit your needs. It's a cheesy trick, but there's a soul meld that makes you immune to Constitution damage. That by itself is fine. However, combine that with Greater Divine Surge and do (6 + Con Score) x d8 damage easily.

Gestalting with Swordsage or Warblade works too. They provide nice boosts and counters to complement your fighting style.

Fighter, just to have lots of feats to play around with.

Barbarian - since you're not using Diamond Mind Concentration you can use your maneuvers while raging.

Druid, if you want the fun of being a crusading animal/beast. Spellcasting is gravy.

[Count_Jaschk]

Not much for playing barbarian. Chaotic alligment makes me a bad player, so I'm sticking with lawfull for the time being.

Druid never meant anything to me. Treehuggers all of them ;)

Will take a look at the Incarnate, opening the books as I'm writing this.

How about feats? And the other classes I mentioned in my first post? :P

Edit - Stupid typo - Something with the alligments

[StreamOfTheSky]

If LA takes both sides of the gestalt, you absolutely positively do not want any LA. It is a horrible trade, in any possible circumstance.

For classes... I took your OP to mean that one side will be Crusader 1-20 and the other will be all the other classes. Right? If that is the case... I don't think it is a good idea. Gestalt is to expand your capabilities, so you generally want at least 2 of combat heavy, skills/utility stuff, and/or spellcasting. It's also generally best to have an "active" side that uses actions a lot and a "passive" side that mostly provides static bonuses, extra feats, etc... While martial adepts could be considered either, you're...loading up on the full BAB combat classes a bit much, I think. Another thing to consider is that Crusader's strength is the recovery mechanic. The maneuver selection is limited and the class features are pretty mediocre. So if possible, entering a ToB prestige class is something any crusader should look into. Each +1 readied maneuver is also +1 granted maneuver, and you'll likely get an expanded choice of disciplines. Unfortunately, the Ruby Knight Vindicator is probably not allowed due to being a hybrid type class...

For your other side, have you considered any sort of caster? Sorceror or Wilder have cha-synergy (but a crusader's need for charisma is grossly exaggerated). The benefit of casting is added utility and combat buffs. Being great at melee means little if your foes are flying and you can't, right?

You could also consider Warlock (would lock you to Chaotic Good if you wanted to be good, though). Warlock, like Crusader, is sort of a mixed bag of passives (24 hour buff invocations) and actives (eldritch blast and most of the offensive invocations) and gives at least some of the casting essentials like flight and teleporting to ensure you can reach your enemy and gives you a reliable ranged attack for when you can't. Their later flexibility with Use Magic Device is also nice. Finally, they both have minor use of charisma, though neither *needs* it.

[Aegis013]

Consider Binder from Tome of Magic. Many of the vestiges offer passive benefits which will benefit you while your actions are taken up using strikes and boosts. Also, you could consider Knight of the Sacred Seal on the Binder side.

I've wanted to make a Gestalt Crusader//Binder for some time. I doubt I'll ever get to, though.

[Fyermind]

Crusader // Dragonfire Adept is a great controller. You have fantastic Con and decent Cha anyway and with metabreath feats you can use your breath weapon hard early and then fight like a crusader the rest of the fight.

If you are having trouble getting your Metabreath feats approved and want something more positive, Dragon Shaman is another option that is strictly better than Marshal for anything but a one level dip. You can be the best non-spellcasting player ever with aura of vigor, martial spirit, etc. The downside is without invocations, flight, allies in your breath weapon, and identifying magic items for free at will are all still out of your realm of expertise at level 6.

I'd like to talk a little more about sorcerer too. You cannot overestimate the usefulness of spells like mirror image, wings of cover, wraithstrike, and invisibility on a tank. Those start becoming a thing at level 4. It just gets better from there.

I'm a big fan of dipping binder 1 with improved binding for con to AC and access to anima mage alongside sorcerer, but that puts you a full spell level behind wizards. On the other hand, as a melee, that's probably okay.

Usually when you gestalt the question should not just be how can I get better at what I am already doing, but how can a give myself good things to do when what I normally do won't work.

[Count_Jaschk]

@StreamOfTheSky - The gm hasn't made a mention into the whole hybrid class thingy being an issue in his games.

As for spell-casting we already have a pretty cool Astral Deva (from Savage Species) Favoured soul and a Radiant Dragon (made using his CR instead of his HD. Think that player tricked the gm) who's also a 20th level Cleric.
Also the astral deva favoured soul has a barbarian warlock backup and she'd never forgive me if I dipped into the awesome powers of the warlock.

We've got a psion - something who's pretty cool at spellcasting and ability healing aswell so our spell-casting is pretty much covered.

Adding to this, I'm not very good at spell-casting when I have more spells than the standard Paladin and even when limited to that, I suck xD
finally I'm most comfortable playing Lawfull Good because if I play either Neutral, Chaotic or Evil, I quickly shift towards Evil at an alarming rate.

What I'm aiming for is a Crusader who basically excels at what the Crusader tank does, but better with class features from other "tank/meat shield" classes. Also seeing as the gm constantly throws things at us that are HD 25 monsters with another 5-15 character levels at us, staying alive isn't easy. That said, any and all paladin and paladin like classes I mentioned in my OP is purely for flavor and smiting abilities, though smiting won't be my primary concern. Staying alive and taking hits for the other players will be.


That said I appreciate the c&c :)

Also, what's your guys' oppinion of the Hellbred race featured in Fiendish Codex II?

[Waker]

I'm going to also recommend the Incarnate class. It grants a lot of passive all day buffs. I suggest Airstep Sandals to let you fly, Crystal Helm for the Will boost, ac bonus and ability to hit incorporeal, Strongheart Vest, Bluesteel Bracers, Planar Ward, Spellward shirt and Pauldrons of Health.

[ksbsnowowl]

If LA takes both sides of the gestalt, you absolutely positively do not want any LA. It is a horrible trade, in any possible circumstance.


I can think of one template that would be worth it, and only because it is too cheap at it's native +1 LA.... Mineral Warrior.

Think of the damage mitigation he would have... Take a hit, deduct 8 points for the DR, then 30 is put into the delayed damage pool. Next turn, power up Stone Power to mitigate a decent chunk coming out of the DDP, and maybe throw on a healing strike (can't remember if that is compatible with Stone Power or not).

I usually suggest that for mid-level games; it may not be as prudent at 20th level.

I would definitely look into thicket of blades + combat reflexes, and possibly Robilar's Gambit. Lock things down and get tons of attacks.

Another good combo... Whatever that 8th level stance is that lets you make a Fort save to not fall below 1 hp... Combined with Steadfast determination, so you can't fail on a 1. That would help you survivability quite a bit, I'd think.

[Need_A_Life]

Idea (rough build)!
Ranger2/Pally3/Stalker of Kharesh (BoED) on one side, Crusader on the other.

Combine your Favoured Enemy (Evil) with Murderous Intent from Elder Evils (requirements: "BAB +9, Favoured Enemy (any)").

You have: Awesome tracking abilities, "evil-only scent," automatically confirm crits against evil targets, force them to make saves vs. fear, excellent saves and your Crusader stance progression hasn't even been tweaked yet. Add in some Marshal or something like that and things only get sweeter.

[Count_Jaschk]

Idea (rough build)!
Ranger2/Pally3/Stalker of Kharesh (BoED) on one side, Crusader on the other.

Combine your Favoured Enemy (Evil) with Murderous Intent from Elder Evils (requirements: "BAB +9, Favoured Enemy (any)").

You have: Awesome tracking abilities, "evil-only scent," automatically confirm crits against evil targets, force them to make saves vs. fear, excellent saves and your Crusader stance progression hasn't even been tweaked yet. Add in some Marshal or something like that and things only get sweeter.

I like it. Alot. Sadly I can't because of the Stalker of Kharesh's Allignment restriction to Neutral Good :-/

And gm has ruled that I only get initiater level equal to the side that gives me the most. Which will be the crusader. How about knight levels to make my threatened area count as difficult terrain if they start their turn in one of them. Then have a weapon with reach, or an Enlarge Person cast with a Permanency and still go for a reach weapon. Perhaps like the chainblade from Arms & Armor revised for cool critical threat ranges?

With a one-level dip into marshal I could get my Cha mod to confirm crits, as will my minotaur, barbarian, war hulk, fighter ally with his falchion. Not that he needs it with his 33 str mod, but still.

[DMVerdandi]

Crusader//Cleric with the dynamic priest feat from dragonlance (It's 3.5). Keys the casting and bonus spells off of charisma for a divine spellcaster.

Now you can have less MAD, and more SAD.
Moreover, you can buff, and send your character out in battle, wading through destruction and then causing more of it.

My advice for any cleric is to take the spontaneous domain casting ACF (PHB 2).
That allows you the ability to cast any one domain list spontaneously. Adds for variety and modular growth.

Justification? You get powers from honing your body and soul.

[Count_Jaschk]

(Sorry in advance for the long post)
First off, thanks for the quick replies and the advice, much appreciated :)
Secondly, I've chosen not to take classes from Incarnum and Tome of Magic because I want to keep things as simple as posible, and I'm still fairly new to 3.5 (not counting phb only campaigns)

Now for the long and boring part. Hope you will take the time to read it :P

Definitely going 20 levels as Crusader because I like the White Raven and Devoted Spirit maneuvers. Also like the odd level 9 Stone Dragon manevuer. The one that does con dmg and doesn' have any prerequisites.

How would a Crusader 20 // Knight 4 // Marshal 1 // Cleric 1 // Fighter 2 // Paladin PrC 2 // Hellreaver 10 do?

I've rolled god-like stats so even if I'm MAD it wont be a problem. Also rolled more lines than I dare count but ended up with 3 x 18 and 3 x 17. And I got the Dm's approval to use that line.

I personally think that the Hellreavers Divine Succor synergizes well with the Crusaders ability to mitigate dmg, hit harder, take dmg, then heal.
The other abilities of the Hellreaver are also, imo anyways, pretty cool since they count vs all of evil alignment.

I like the Knight because of his Bulwark of Defense and Shield Ally features. Also the ability to have a Mithral Sectioned armor without movement penalties is nice. And the knight's challenge fits well with my role-playing style. And the d12 hd is sweet. Don't see why the Crusader didn't get it.

Cleric is because of the turn undead which is a prerequisite for most divine feats. Also some minor spell casting is cool, though I'm not the greatest of those. Addign to this is the good Fort and Will saves at first level.

Marshal is because I like having my cha mod to confirm critical threats seeing as most of the creatures we've encountered so far are pretty immune to trip, bull rush, etc, etc making the +cha to those checks inconsequential.

The two level dip in Fighter is only to get more feats as I'm pretty feat starved as it is. Also the good fort is awesome.

The Paladin PrC to add my Cha to all my saves. Priceless imo because everything we encounter requires us to makes lots and lots of saves. And I don't have to max out my PrC levels in this campaign.

I've got 760k gold to spend and I wanted to boost my stats so I've added three +4 tomes. One for str, con and cha.

Also got a +6 belt of str, dex, con and a headband of cha +6 (we're allowed to combine magic items by adding ½ the cost of the cheapest item. Can also pick any stat item for any item slot instead of the one listed in the book)

With the +2 con and -2 int from my Hellbred's Infernal Aspect and my +1 x 5 for being level 20 I've ended up with (god-like imo) ability scores.

Str 30 (18 + 2 increase +4 stat tome +6 enhancement)
Dex 24 (17 + 1 increase + 6 enhancement)
Con 30 (18 + 2 racial +4 stat tome +6 enhancement)
Int 15 (17 - 2 racial)
Wis 17
Cha 30 (18 + 2 increase +4 stat tome +6 enhancement)


My plan is to get stuck in as fast as possible and keep the enemies focused on me whilst also dishing out a wee bit of dmg and perhaps heal my self a little bit if the healers are preoccupied doing other stuff.

I know I should have expanded my spell casting instead of looking for ways to improve my combat prowess, but we've already got a bunch of spell casters who's got other spell casters as back-up.

With above info, what feats and magic items should I take to become a lean mean tanking-,self healing-, evil killing-machine? Note that I can use evil magic items without penalty to neither level nor CoC because of my race. BoVD weapon enhancements looks pretty awesome, but whats your oppinion?


Once again sorry for the long post.

[Fouredged Sword]

With those stats I would be sorely tempted to be a gish of some kind. You have the chopps for spells and spells are very nice.

I would go ether
Cleric x / Warblade 1 / Ruby Knight Vindicator X / Cleric
or
Bard 20 - Be a DFI bardsader
or
Psion (or psiwar if you want feat more than PP) / Crystal Master - 6/- DR, +6 untyped strength, con and cha, +6 to def and saves, PR good amounts! 18 levels of Psion (or psiwar) casting on top!

[RaviStrife]

Hmm. I would really recommend taking Crusader on one side, Cleric on the other. Having a full casting class on one side provides HUGE utility, and a source of swift/immediate actions. This is prime for gestalt, so you can take advantage of both sides at a single turn. Cloistered cleric would provide skill points (6+int) and DMM: persistent spell would turn you into a steel juggernaut (divine power, divine might, rightous might).
Another favorite spell of mine is battlemagic perception- persist it and be ready to counter any spell on you, all day. Good luck with your gestalt!