[3.5] Feats for a Wand based Rogue

[BiblioRook]

I know I kinda just made a thread for character advice, but I felt I was going in a different enough direction that I would be best off making a new one.

So I always heard fun things about UMD Rogues and it's always been high on my list on things I've wanted to try out and now I have my chance. Seeing how we are starting at 12th level I find I have a lot of feats to work with (a lot, but more on that in a moment) and not having much experience in high or mid-level campaigns I find myself a bit directionless as far as the amount of choice available.
So I was wondering, what are some good feats for a wand welding Rogue?

But wait, there's actually more. See, I've always hated combat and as much as I love Rogues I never cared much for sneak attack damage. Fortunately, while not many, alternatives do exist. I managed to get my DM to approve dipping into Unearthed Arcana to use the rule that lets you take Fighter Feats in place of sneak attack dice. So in addition to the 5-6 feat gained normally by level 12, I have 6 more on top of that to sort out (but those are a bit more limited in selection).

Edit: A little bit of clarification of what I'm looking for, I would like to stay as far away as combat focus as I can. Wands with utility uses, Fighter feats with a more defensive focus, etc. Also, anything to make me more able to to convince others I'm a Wizard rather then a Rogue would be a plus.

[Tokuhara]

Two-Weapon Fighting
Double Wand Wielder
Wandstrike
Reckless Wand Wielder
Wand Mastery
Master Wand
Skill Focus: Use Magic Device

[BiblioRook]

Skill Focus: Use Magic Device

I read somewhere that a level dip in Wizard would clear up the need of focusing too much on the actual UMD skill, provided you then stick to Wizardy wands. I was planning on doing just that as it also give me a few other bonuses as well as a good deal of flavor content.

Edit: Also just a reminder that this is for a Rogue, which half of those feats aren't really feasible for.

[Juntao112]

A dip in Assassin lets you take Craft: Wand

[BiblioRook]

It's more the 15 ranks in a cross-class skill and the 9 caster levels I was talking about. It's probably not necessary to take another level dip for an extra feat because odds are I have feats to spare as is.

Not to mention, Assassin? Not a particularly useful class, flavor wise or mechanic wise, for someone trying to be a non-combatant.

[ericgrau]

15 ranks UMD +3 circlet of persuasion (4500 gp) +2 cha = +20 UMD. So you might as well rely on UMD to use wands.

However a wizard dip is still good for crafting wands. Take 1 level of wizard plus practiced spellcaster. Now you have the required caster level for craft wand. You can craft wands containing 1st and 2nd level spells using scrolls and you'll still save money on wands in spite of the cost of the scrolls. 1 is required per day, which means 1 per 1,000 gp of market price

You seem to be making a utility spell based rogue, so what you really want are tons and tons of scrolls, wands and staffs. For situational spells you get 2 or 3 scrolls. Read the level 1-3 spells for every class and pick out ALL the utility spells. For spammable spells like invisibility and cure light wounds you get a wand. Likewise read the level 1-2 spells for every class and select the spammable utility spells (there are much less, maybe only the 2 I mentioned, but still a couple). And to be as mighty as a real wizard get a staff. Here you pick your favorite 3-4 high level wizard spells, just as if you were playing an actual wizard. In all cases don't worry about running out of uses; D&D encounters & campaigns contain an astoundingly low number of actions.

Dual wand wielding is still good for doubling up on buffs during combat, if you want to do that.

You probably want to be charisma based both for your staff casting and for use magic device. OTOH being int based would give you more skills. Either way it would probably be good to invest in both.

Feat rogue doesn't seem to add anything because all you get are fighter bonus feats, which are all for combat. Bard would be better, but I don't know if you want a class that can actually cast and you get less skill points. I will also suggest Rogue 1 / Expert 6 / Wizard 1 / Expert 4. True you also get less skill points than a rogue, but you get to pick which skills are class skills which lets you be much more versatile as a skillmonkey. You can then select all the key skills that would normally take multiclassing to get, such as survival (and the track feat, most likely). You are limited to 10 class skills so any natural intelligence beyond 18, or 16 for human, will be wasted. But you probably can't get it higher than 21 anyway. What you can do is plan your rogue and wizard dips carefully, to blow a bunch of skill points on a skill other than your 10 class skills. A knowledge skill perhaps, which you instantly max out during the wizard dip. Then when you go back to expert you can catch up on your main 10 since you didn't up them during the dip. The main purpose of the rogue dip is trapfinding.

Finally, look into all the cheap wondrous items for utility items that can't be duplicated with scrolls. All together with an item for practically everything and skills too, you can be more versatile then a real caster ever could. Though not as powerful.

An often overlooked rule that you're going to run into is that your starting expendable items may not exceed 1/4 your WBL. For permanent items you can use utility wondrous items like bags of tricks and bags of holding. Bags of holding are for more than just holding stuff; there are all kinds of challenges that may be overcome by stuffing PCs into them. And so on for other items. Get creative.

[BiblioRook]

A one level dip in wizard is the most I'm going to consider with multi-classing, the rest is going to be straight rogue. Nit-picky optimization be damned but I don't feel like dealing with that and I know my DM wouldn't appreciate it if even if I did.
I know the feat rogue isn't great, but considering it's a choice between 6 feats that I might have a chance in using or a pool of bonus damage I know I won't use at all, I think that choice is pretty clear.

Despite the appearance of the wand thing being the focus of the character, I honestly was hoping not to have to dump points into UMD to free those points up for more ones useful to the game as a whole (besides, shouldn't the wizard dip cover that anyways?). That and the idea of then having to focus on one single stat that would be useless for everything else about my character. The wand thing is essentially a gimmick; it's quirky and fun and makes things a bit more interesting then what I otherwise would be doing, but when it comes down to it the whole reason I'm in the game in the first place is to aid the party skill wise so if anything should be maximized it should be that.



Finally, look into all the cheap wondrous items for utility items that can't be duplicated with scrolls. All together with an item for practically everything and skills too, you can be more versatile then a real caster ever could. Though not as powerful.
Man oh man, I would be lying if this wasn't the first thing that came to my mind when I thought about trying to play this kind of character. Especially when I saw that 88k starting gold for level 12.
But yeah... sadly the DM doesn't seem big on characters going crazy magical item wise. I mean, he didn't even agree to the wand rogue idea right away in the first place and he's yet to actually give me the budget for how many wands I can actually be able to pick up before the game actually starts...
That being said, I'm also probably not going to be able to get by obtaining the usual stat boost items ether.

[ericgrau]

I see. Then I'd find something to focus on, with wands on the side. Dual wand wielding for double buffs and practiced spellcaster => craft wand should be plenty. UMD might still be nice for buffs like bless and you will still have lots of skills. Plus the circlet of persuasion has a double purpose on social skills.

Combat feats will be tough to use for things besides combat. You can get TWF to get you into dual wand wielding. Quick draw is good for swapping wands. And then I'm stuck.

Even if you focus on skills you should have at least something for combat. Perhaps invisibility + benign transposition to swap with allies who are in trouble or who need to be next to an enemy. Likewise snake's swiftness and mass snake's swiftness to give them more attacks. Since none of these are direct attacks, your invisibility stays up.

[Tokuhara]

There is a good thing with a Wizard/Sorcerer dip (I am aware you specifically said Wizard, but Sorcerer is better generally as a 1-level dip). You open the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list. This means you now have access to all Wizard/Sorcerer spells. I'd also suggest a dip into Cloistered Cleric. 3 domains and another host of spells available without having to make UMD checks

[BiblioRook]

Combat feats will be tough to use for things besides combat. You can get TWF to get you into dual wand wielding. Quick draw is good for swapping wands. And then I'm stuck.

The idea was to try to get something defensive in case I get stuck in a fight, but best I was really able to come up with was the like of Combat Expertise, Dodge, and Mobility. I thought maybe just for a character flavor thing make him something of a fencer just to use the feats up (you know, 'learned in at university but never had to use it in a real fight' kinda deal), but that started using alot of feats and stopped being a simple side thing and more something that begged to be a central character trait.

On the topic of UMD feat though, I found some pretty good ones... if only I knew the sources for them.
But yeah, Magic Device Training (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Magic_Device_Training_%283.5e_Feat%29) and Push Magic Device (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Push_Magic_Device_%283.5e_Feat%29). If anyone knows what books they might have came out of (if any), that would be great, but as it is they should be pretty useful none the less.


There is a good thing with a Wizard/Sorcerer dip (I am aware you specifically said Wizard, but Sorcerer is better generally as a 1-level dip). You open the Wizard/Sorcerer spell list. This means you now have access to all Wizard/Sorcerer spells. I'd also suggest a dip into Cloistered Cleric. 3 domains and another host of spells available without having to make UMD checks

I would be open to Sorcerer actually, but then I wouldn't be able to truthfully claim that I am in fact a Wizard (technically). I know, it's a flavor thing, but still. Cleric is right out however, it just wouldn't fit the character at all, regardless how optimized it would be.

[ericgrau]

Watch out for dandwiki, those feats were probably made up by some schmo, not from a book.

I know what you mean on the "I'm a wizard!" thing. I had an int 12 elf, with 2 levels of wizard... at level 30. I had staffs and wands with spells up to 9th level. I always stated firmly "I'm a wizard!" when I used something. I was a fighter :smallsigh:.

[Telonius]

Sorry if the question is a bit obvious, but is there any reason you aren't going Artificer for the concept?

[Tokuhara]

The reason for Sorcerer over Wizard is threefold:

1. Better exclusive spells. Sorcerer gets a couple really nice spells from the Dragon books, both of which can really pack a wallop

2. Better UMD synergy. No, for 1 level you have to buy it cross-class, but your main score for UMD is charisma.

3. More versatility. I know "Wizards can do anything," but not at level 1. From level 1, if you cherry pick, you can have a quite versatile rogue who could grab a couple spells to fill where skills cannot fill.


And with most non-caster builds, I try to squeeze a level of Cleric in, because Domains are good and the spell list is great (access to the cleric spell list in item form). And as with a Sorcerer/Wizard dip, you don't have to UMD these spells. Personally, I'd do Feat Rogue 1/Sorcerer 1/Cloistered Cleric (Knowledge, Luck, Pride with a trade-out Knowledge Domain for Knowledge Devotion)/Feat Rogue 5. I'd stock up on a combination of Luck feats, Knowledge Devotion and TWF/Double Wand Wielder.

[BiblioRook]

Sorry if the question is a bit obvious, but is there any reason you aren't going Artificer for the concept?

Because like I said earlier, while the spells are neat and all the skills are what take priority. In the end the spell stuff is just extra for my own fun but I don't expect it to matter as much in the long run.

[Curmudgeon]

I read somewhere that a level dip in Wizard would clear up the need of focusing too much on the actual UMD skill, provided you then stick to Wizardy wands.
That's an inferior choice compared to (Cloistered) Cleric with the Magic domain; that gets you access to all Cleric and all Wizard wands, free of any UMD checks. Plus the Cleric's good saves complement the Rogue's weak spots, whereas a Rogue/Wizard still has sucky Fortitude saves.

Seriously, if your focus is wands you shouldn't care about arcane vs. divine here; your goal should be to use as many wands as possible.

[ericgrau]

I think his focus his skills & between combat utility though, with some wands and wizardy fluff on the side. I'm just worried that he may still need something for combat, which means wands or something else gets some more attention.

Apparently improved initiative is a fighter bonus feat, never noticed that. If you dig through a bunch of books you might find some more that are useful to you. I'd still look for something to do in a fight, be it heavier wanding or whatever else. Diplomacy and stealth to avoid fights helps too, but remember you can't avoid them all: Wand of invisibility (and tag the whole party), mithril shirt of improved silent moves (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicArmor.htm#silentMoves) + scouting + sleight of hand the goal, a good bluff and perhaps diplomacy, etc.

[BiblioRook]

I think his focus his skills & between combat utility though, with some wands and wizardy fluff on the side.

More non-combat utility, but basically yeah. The game I'm in is kinda a stealth game and the point is largely not to get into fights. And for when we inevitably do, well that's what the other party members are for. Oddly enough, despite me being the late-comer to this game, apparently no one thought to play as a Rogue or focus much on skills despite the nature of campaign being sneaking around and breaking into places. Hence the importance of being a skill monkey Rogue, because that's what the party needs.
Also I have pretty decent attack bonus with moderate Dex (DM gave us fixed stats) and Weapon Finesse, so it's not like I can't fight if needed. I'm just not special at it, but then again I'm not supposed to be.

[ericgrau]

A bard might be better then for silence, sculpt sound, zone of silence and glibness on top of invisibility. Though that's probably not your goal. Well invisibility the whole party, spider climb the whole party, and so on. It doesn't help if you're stealthy and they aren't, but that's where wand spamming comes in.

Detect thoughts is good for scouting, remember it can penetrate doors. Really spell level 2 for wizards is the major utility level.

[BiblioRook]

Really spell level 2 for wizards is the major utility level.

Believe me, I've noticed.

All this talk about unoptimability (is that a word?) made me think how I'm actually kinda fine with that. My DM wanted a light funny casual game but also mentioned he was hoping to not have it too magic focused. Having that window of failure (small as it is) would probably put him more at ease with this concept as well as opening up the possibility of a blunder that might make the encounter a little more interesting if I just simply succeed every time.

Though that all being said (going back to the original point of the thread *cough*)... I still have like three feats I have no idea how to fill.
I'm going to feel like I wasted them if I have to resort to just generic skill boosting feats, but I haven't found much that really stood out that I thought I could use.