Full BAB? How Important?

[Gwazi Magnum]

I have a Gestalt made for a campaign now.

It's mostly what I would want for a campaign, but it's missing a small bit of interesting abilities.

The main thing I find that might of set him back a bit was that I made it so every level was increasing his BAB by 1 because I thought it would be important for combat and feats.

Note: His main form of combat is planned to be unarmed combat.

Too which I have to ask, is a high BAB truly that vital for a combat build? Or would a medium BAB be fine? Would there be any good ways to make up for the lack of extra attacks and the lower attack rolls?

[Gnome Alone]

Strength! Dozens and dozens of Strength!

[tyckspoon]

Depends on what's in the gestalt. If you've got casting/psionics/wildshaping going on, then you can probably get along without worrying about your BAB too much- a little bit of thought in how you use your spells/powers/whatever should cover for any flaws in your base stats. If you're looking at a more mundane skillmonkey kinda pairing, then yeah, you probably want to keep your BAB up.

[Flickerdart]

Unless you can jack up your to-hit astronomically or manage to get touch attacks (such as with persisted wraithstrike), that last attack made at -15 is not going to hit anything most of the time anyway.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I should note then one of my planned classes is Monk for the Gestalt.

Reasons being:
-I want my character to be competent when he loses his gear
-I want to be able to punch things well

Side reasons:
-All good saving throws = life saver against a DM that loves challenges

But one of the Monk's main faults is the lack of full BAB which is why I wanted to see how vital it would be.

Though I think I did kind of already knew the answer, pretty damn vital.
In which case that means I need to invest my 2nd class into one that's BAB high, so to make up for other categories I have a few additional questions.

1. I heard of a 'University' feat that gives +2 Skill Points per level but I can't find it anywhere. Does this feat exist? If so where can I find it?

2. Is there another class I can pick that specializes in unarmed fighting that isn't the Monk?

[Lupus753]

2. Is there another class I can pick that specializes in unarmed fighting that isn't the Monk?

Unarmed Swordsage. Well, maybe not specializing, but it's very good at it.

[Humble Master]

I would say that full BAB isn't vital and your probably better off getting class that gives you some other bonus like good class features or spells. I might sugest Swordsage for some cool maneuvers to augment you punching stuff.

[Flickerdart]

-I want my character to be competent when he loses his gear
Haw. The monk is one of the game's most gear-dependent characters. While he may have fists that deal ok damage, their maximum output (2d10) is only an average of 11 damage, a mere 4 points higher than normal melee gets at level 1 with a greatsword. If you really want to be gear-independent, look into incarnum.

Incidentally, how attached are you to punching? The totemist is an incarnum class that focuses on natural attacks - bites, claws, slams, that sort of thing. Even naked, they are very effective combatants, and can do everything that a monk does, better.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Unarmed Swordsage. Well, maybe not specializing, but it's very good at it.

What book is that class from?

[Flickerdart]

What book is that class from?
Tome of Battle: the Book of Nine Swords.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Haw. The monk is one of the game's most gear-dependent characters. While he may have fists that deal ok damage, their maximum output (2d10) is only an average of 11 damage, a mere 4 points higher than normal melee gets at level 1 with a greatsword. If you really want to be gear-independent, look into incarnum.

Incidentally, how attached are you to punching? The totemist is a class that focuses on natural attacks - bites, claws, slams, that sort of thing.

How are they gear dependent?

Unarmed = No weapons
Unarmored = No armor

That seems like the main gear out of the way already, or is there a part about Monks I'm missing?

As for punching.

I want my guy to be good in something like martial arts and/or just a good brawler. So I would rather throw punches than to start clawing someone.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Tome of Battle: the Book of Nine Swords.

Thanks, I'll go check it out now.

[Flickerdart]

How are they gear dependent?

Unarmed = No weapons
Unarmored = No armor

That seems like the main gear out of the way already, or is there a part about Monks I'm missing?
Monk fists might deal a bit of extra damage over other people, but their accuracy is rubbish and they lack the sheer damage potential of two-handed weapons. That means they need to shell out for the pricey amulet of mighty fists to raise their to-hit and damage to acceptable levels. Their AC bonus is also not enough to protect them against attacks. A monk that puts maximum emphasis on Wisdom to the exclusion of anything else will have maybe 36 Wisdom at level 20 (including a +6 magic item). That gives him an AC of 27. A CR 16 opponent (the Cornugon) hits that on a 2, and a level-appropriate enemy (the CR 20 pit fiend) will hit that AC on a negative 3.

Then, the monk's reliance on three other ability scores (Strength to hit stuff, Dexterity to supplement his mediocre AC, and Constitution for making sure he doesn't die) costs him even more cash. Want to improve that AC with items? Shame that bracers of armor and rings of protection cost loads more than just buying normal armor. Oh, and then you need to fly to hit flying foes, see in the dark so you can effectively fight at night, have some way to reliably get away from enemies that outclass you in melee (which will be almost all of them), penetrate various types of DR, move and full attack at the same time...

[Jeff the Green]

How are they gear dependent?

Unarmed = No weapons
Unarmored = No armor

That seems like the main gear out of the way already, or is there a part about Monks I'm missing?

Check this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) out. Some classes can do these with class features; others need items. Let's see where monks fall:

Flight Unless you get it from your race, you need an item.
Mind Blank Nope.
Stun/daze negation No.
Fear immunity Uh-uh.
True seeing Nein.
Miss change Nyet.
Teleportation Non.
Immunity to death effects Yeah, no.
Dispel magic and counters Don't make me laugh.
Special senses No.

Plus their MADness, poor base damage, and medium BAB require items to remediate. Other classes, like casters, incarnates, initiators, and binders, can supply some or all of the necessary "magic items" though class abilities. Monks none.

[Gavinfoxx]

Here are the major 'replacements' for monk:

1.) Unarmed Swordsage, from Tome of Battle. This is the most obvious Monk 2.0. Go take a look at it; the Unarmed bit is an Adaptation of the monk, and it does everything the monk wanted to do.

2.) Tashalatora Psychic Warrior. What you do with this is take a level or 2 of Monk, the Tashalatora feat from Secrets of Sarlona, and go into Psychic Warrior from Expanded Psionics Handbook or the System Resource Document and never look back. Instead of Psychic Warrior, Ardent (from Complete Psionics) can work well, too. It's arguable that this might not work in Gestalt.

3.) (Whirling Frenzy [System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana] or Ferocity [Cityscape Web Enhancement]) Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion), Wolf Totem (System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana) Barbarian. Those are the core changes and acf's of the barbarian class to make it more monk-like, except better than the Monk at fighting. Take Skilled City Dweller-ride for tumble (Cityscape Web Enhancement) and City Brawler (Dragon Magazine #349). Streetfighter (Cityscape Web Enhancement) isn't necessary --it helps. I would suggest Whirling Frenzy over Ferocity. Just get Improved Unarmed Strike, Superior Unarmed Strike (Tome of Battle), a Monk's Belt (DMG or SRD, if your wisdom is high), some light armor (if your wisdom isn't high, like that build took), a Monk's Tattoo (Magic of Faerun I think), a Necklace of Natural attacks (Savage Species), and/or a Fanged Ring (Dragon Magic). In fact, any of these builds could maybe use those items!

4.) Monk 2/Mystic/Sacred Fist (note that Sacred Fist type classes can't work in Gestalt). This monk build uses a divine class, and the 'text over table' rule to get full casting for the Sacred Fist prestige class in complete divine. It works okay with Cleric, great with the Mystic class from Dragonlance Campaign Setting (choose a strong melee domain or devotion [complete champion!]), and pretty good with Favored Soul from Complete Divine. Don't take more than 2 levels of Monk. Focus on long-duration self-buffs.

5.) Monk with a huuuuge variety of alternative class features. Namely: Wild Monk (Dragon Magazine #324), Holy Strike (Complete Champion), Invisible Fist (Champions of Valor), Resistant Body (Planar Handbook), who picks up the 'X Wild Shape' (where X is a descriptor) feats from Draconomicon, Book of Exalted Deeds, and Frostburn. Make sure the DM lets you use your unarmed strikes at the end of your natural attacks. Focus on Wild Shape forms that get Pounce. Only works as 'powerful' once you get Wild Shape, and if you use a method of speaking while in Wild Shape, and of getting your gear to work while in Wild Shape as well (Wilding Clasps, or taking it off and putting it on after you shape). There are other sets of ACF loadouts that work passably well, but this is my personal favorite.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Monk fists might deal a bit of extra damage over other people, but their accuracy is rubbish and they lack the sheer damage potential of two-handed weapons. That means they need to shell out for the pricey amulet of mighty fists to raise their to-hit and damage to acceptable levels. Their AC bonus is also not enough to protect them against attacks. A monk that puts maximum emphasis on Wisdom to the exclusion of anything else will have maybe 36 Wisdom at level 20 (including a +6 magic item). That gives him an AC of 27. A CR 16 opponent (the Cornugon) hits that on a 2, and a level-appropriate enemy (the CR 20 pit fiend) will hit that AC on a negative 3.

Then, the monk's reliance on three other ability scores (Strength to hit stuff, Dexterity to supplement his mediocre AC, and Constitution for making sure he doesn't die) costs him even more cash. Want to improve that AC with items? Shame that bracers of armor and rings of protection cost loads more than just buying normal armor. Oh, and then you need to fly to hit flying foes, see in the dark so you can effectively fight at night, have some way to reliably get away from enemies that outclass you in melee (which will be almost all of them), penetrate various types of DR, move and full attack at the same time...

Points taken.

Though a monk with his fists will still do more damage than a two handed fighter without his weapon.

I should note: Part of the reason I want my guy to do well without a weapon is one for character concept and two because our DM likes putting us in situations where we can't use our gear, and when he learned this was a concern of mine he said I didn't blame me.

In terms of AC however, Full Plate gives a max AC of +9 before enchantments which is AC 19, lower than the Monks AC in that example. Plus I'm pretty sure my DM has allowed us to bless clothing with armor enchantments so armor wouldn't win there either.

[Gavinfoxx]

Compare a monk with a 2 handed fighter with a CLUB (the 1h weapon, wielded two handed, 0 gp item)

That he just took from THAT TREE OVER THERE.

THF, especially if he is a shock trooper, flat out wins, hardcore...

[TypoNinja]

How are they gear dependent?

Unarmed = No weapons
Unarmored = No armor

That seems like the main gear out of the way already, or is there a part about Monks I'm missing?

As for punching.

I want my guy to be good in something like martial arts and/or just a good brawler. So I would rather throw punches than to start clawing someone.

It seems like that, but D&D is pretty much based on the idea that you'll have magical goodies making you stronger. A fighters magic sword is obvious enough, but you'll need something that lets you fly so you can hit flying opponents, you'll have something boosting your strength to keep your damage up, various magic defensive items so you are not so squishy, utility stuff like a belt of battle to get extra actions. An amulet of natural attacks so you can enchant your unarmed strikes. The list goes on.

While you are technically less screwed than say a fighter without his gear (A full caster is still better off than both of you combined) you still are incapable of meeting any level appropriate threat much after level 5 or so.

Wealth By Level is a stat for a reason, you need those magic goodies.

[Gavinfoxx]

In fact, compare a Monk with a Human Warrior with the stats:

-Str 16 at level 1 (so 17 at level 4, 18 at level 8...)
-Anything else doesn't matter

-With a 0 gp club, wielded in two hands (so it counts as two handed)

-With (this comes online at level 6) the feats:
Power Attack
Battle Jump
Improved Bull Rush
Shock Trooper

-With no other gear. How is he doing, in damage output, vs the monk? Hmmm?

How well can this guy overcome Damage Reduction, versus the Monk? Which is actually more gear independent? This is an NPC class, mind you.

Keep in mind, at level 9 the Warrior adds the feat Leap Attack.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Ok, I looked over all the suggested classes.

But something to highlight first, I do want my character to be good with his fists both from a character concept perspective and being able to handle himself when without gear.

Considering it's Gestalt I'm making I think I found a good mix though...

Note: I start at level 8

Class 1: Monk 3/Tattooed Monk 5
Class 2: Fighter 8 (Looking for a more effective variant atm)

Reason for Fighter is two main things
1. High BAB
2. Weapon Specialization
+Higher HD which helps but isn't one of my reasons for taking it

How would something like this work?

Note that the campaign he is being made is said to be roleplay and skill heavy... But that the combat will still be common and when it does happen it is meant to be damn hard.

Though this does has me lacking with skill points, but I plan to address with either high intelligence or that 'University' feat that gives +2 Skill points per level. But I still cannot find it anywhere.

Can someone show me where to find this feat if it does exist? Or does it not exist and was just something I mis-read or someone else on the site misunderstood?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Actually forget the Tattooed Monk part.

I just relised a few things looking at it more closely

1. The DM can also put me in an anti-magic area to turn the tattoo's off, which he also likes to do

2. He loses his flurry of blows progression

3. Fists will stop progressing to be treated as certain damage types

[NotScaryBats]

Have you considered cleric // monk or druid // monk?
That gives you supreme independence, being able to heal and buff yourself, without gear, (summon holy symbol is lvl 0 spell if your dm goes that route) and it also stacks more goodness onto high wisdom.

I'd say druid // unarmed swordsagge would be an excellent self-reliant, gear independent character, a bit better than // monk

[Flickerdart]

In terms of AC however, Full Plate gives a max AC of +9 before enchantments which is AC 19, lower than the Monks AC in that example. Plus I'm pretty sure my DM has allowed us to bless clothing with armor enchantments so armor wouldn't win there either.
Full plate is +9 by default. But you can get it made from all sorts of lovely special materials that raise the max dexterity cap, or get exotic armour that gives more AC, or use a shield...it's really easy to get a massive AC if you're not straightjacketed by needing to be naked.

The point, however, is not that a decent class can get higher AC than a monk. The point is that the monk still needs his AC boosted to have it be worth a damn. When the monsters hit you on a 1, it doesn't matter if your AC is 27 or 10.

[Gavinfoxx]

Though this does has me lacking with skill points, but I plan to address with either high intelligence or that 'University' feat that gives +2 Skill points per level. But I still cannot find it anywhere.

That's probably because it isn't actually a D&D feat. Sounds like someone's bad homebrew on Dandwiki or something.

There's Nymph's Kiss, if you are actually looking for real, 3.5e feats? Open Minded, Able Learner, Jack of All Trades, maybe?

[Gavinfoxx]

And here. Look at this:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=399.0

Look at the Fighter Handbook, the Monk Handbook, the Swordsage Handbook, the Psychic Warrior Handbook, the Barbarian Handbook, the Druid Handbook, Person Man's guide to melee combos, etc. etc. etc.

At least get an idea of what these sorts of character types can do, eh?

[Gwazi Magnum]

Have you considered cleric // monk or druid // monk?
That gives you supreme independence, being able to heal and buff yourself, without gear, (summon holy symbol is lvl 0 spell if your dm goes that route) and it also stacks more goodness onto high wisdom.

I'd say druid // unarmed swordsagge would be an excellent self-reliant, gear independent character, a bit better than // monk

We're on a player set restriction/challenge to not be spell casting classes so no one get's too broken or powerful.

So as powerful as spell casters could be, it's not an option I'm afraid.
Note: This also applies to Psionics.


Full plate is +9 by default. But you can get it made from all sorts of lovely special materials that raise the max dexterity cap, or get exotic armour that gives more AC, or use a shield...it's really easy to get a massive AC if you're not straightjacketed by needing to be naked.

The point, however, is not that a decent class can get higher AC than a monk. The point is that the monk still needs his AC boosted to have it be worth a damn. When the monsters hit you on a 1, it doesn't matter if your AC is 27 or 10.

True, but this restricts you to being that guy waltzing in super heavy armor then.


That's probably because it isn't actually a D&D feat. Sounds like someone's bad homebrew on Dandwiki or something.

There's Nymph's Kiss, if you are actually looking for real, 3.5e feats? Open Minded, Able Learner, Jack of All Trades, maybe?

It being homebrew doesn't shock me, and if that's the case then that defelently wouldn't be approved. Shame.

Nymph's Kiss I remember asking my DM about before and he said no.

All the others, I've looked at them but none of them seem to be worth a feat to me, not when characters can get so feat hungry.

[Gavinfoxx]

If you want to function in antimagic areas, you should be a Wizard.

So you can planar bind lots of things, and make golems, and have them fight for you in an antimagic area. And also sleep in rope tricks, and not be assailable when you don't have your buffs up, etc. etc.

See:

http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10104

[NotScaryBats]

Oh, well that's too bad on the spellcaster thing, since its a good way to do what you want to do.

I really like the Gravetouched Ghoul template from Libris Mortis, because I love undead and it gives you claws and a bite that carry a paralysis, but since you said you wanted martial arts that's probably not really what you're looking for.

Warblade // Unarmed Swordsage is pretty much a master of arms, with d12 hp, full BAB, 6 Skills / lvl, tons of maneuvers to pick from, the ability to wear heavy armor or not, the ability to use a huge sword or not, and I think you'd like it maybe <3

If you want to be more of a leader or have the capacity to heal, Crusader // USS would allow you access to the healing maneuvers.

[Flickerdart]

Gestalting martial adepts seems kind of pointless - you can only activate so many maneuvers every round, and they're fairly light on passive class features. Something like Barbarian would be a good choice, since more Strength and Constitution are never amiss.

[Gavinfoxx]

Also, Mithral Full Plate is Medium armor. ;) ;)

And there are plenty of ways to get your skill and speed back up... there's items that can put on or remove your armor in an instant, for example!

In fact, if I had known you were considering it, I would have added another prepared rant against vow of poverty, and how monk + vow of poverty is one of the weakest combos in the game, that people seem to think is good for some unfathomable reason.

[Jeff the Green]

Warblade // Unarmed Swordsage is pretty much a master of arms, with d12 hp, full BAB, 6 Skills / lvl, tons of maneuvers to pick from, the ability to wear heavy armor or not, the ability to use a huge sword or not, and I think you'd like it maybe <3

Personally I prefer something more passive paired with a swordsage. You'll just have too many maneuvers for you to use in a single encounter. For unarmed, consider barbarian with the ferocity (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a) or whirling frenzy variant rages. Grab Shadowblade and you add Dex and Str to your attacks, and ferocity/whirling frenzy boosts both. This will help overcome the problem that UAS is a light weapon somewhat.

Alternatively, grab Carmendine Monk or Kung Fu Master and go Factotum on the other side. Great for a tripping monk, incidentally.

Edit: Partially swordsaged, appropriately enough.

[Fyermind]

Full BAB is not vital. 16 BAB by level 20 is nice if you can get it but is also not necessary.
My suggestion is
Unarmed Swordsage // Druid
You never need to multiclass with prestige classes. You will be powerful without gear. You will be competent in an antimagic field. You basically can't make bad decisions with what maneuvers you take, so you can afford to take things you like. Check out one of the swordsage handbooks if you want to make particularly good choices. Most of your feats are free (except for your level 6 feat which is natural spell. Druid's tax) and if you decide you want whatever feat you do, it will be okay. You have lots of spells to chose from, but there are some consolidated lists out there of good buffs on the druid list to keep you busy. Wildshape at level 5 also known as becoming an animal at level 8, means you pick your favorite animal for and never have to fight as a human again. You can also use wands such as a wand of cure light wounds for out of combat healing. You also get a pet if you want it.

You will have enough sources of bonus damage (Maneuvers and spells), and attacks (unarmed strikes and natural weapons), and versatility (spells, and wildshape, and some maneuvers if you want), plus some nature and meditation themed abilities and minor bonuses.

It seems like you aren't used to the level of optimization that often goes on here. This will give you a practically very powerful character that you don't need to work hard at to stay relevant basically no matter what your friends do.

In most situations where your DM nerfs the party, you will probably be the most effective. You won't be at full power, he nerfed you. He took away your fancy item, your light armor, your spells. You are weaker. He succeeded. But you can still fight better than a monk//fighter in an antimagic field at any level given equal amounts of optimization.

[Oscredwin]

For an unarmed Gestalt?

Warblade//Monk -
Un armed Swordsage//Barbarian
Punchbarian//Factotum

All have d12 HD, full BAB, powerful unarmed strikes, decent saves, decent skills, and either maneuvers or factotum action abuse. No tier 1 or 2 shenanigans. And while all of them are quite fond of their magic items, if they wake up in an AMF jail, they can all break out and crush the guards.

[Gavinfoxx]

2nd the Punchbarian / Factotum!

Look at that list of alternative class features for Barbarian in my earlier post to make him an unarmed fighter type... and Factotums are just awesome in general!

If you can get the spellcasting replaced with a homebrew martial adept variant... EVEN BETTER!

Know how you would fight? Like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGCMfprPJoA

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212864

[Lans]

That means they need to shell out for the pricey amulet of mighty fists to raise their to-hit and damage to acceptable levels. There is an item in savage species that costs significantly less I believe



Want to improve that AC with items? Shame that bracers of armor and rings of protection cost loads more than just buying normal armor. Its AC bonus has normal armor beat, and magical armor costs the same as bracers.


Oh, and then you need to fly to hit flying foes,
Not true, there is Ring the Golden Bell that lets you shoot stunning fists. Also those feats from PHB 2


Check this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) out. Some classes can do these with class features; others need items. Let's see where monks fall:

Flight Unless you get it from your race, you need an item.
Mind Blank Nope.
Stun/daze negation No.
Fear immunity Uh-uh.
True seeing Nein.
Miss change Nyet.
Teleportation Non.
Immunity to death effects Yeah, no.
Dispel magic and counters Don't make me laugh.
Special senses No.

Plus their MADness, poor base damage, and medium BAB require items to remediate. Other classes, like casters, incarnates, initiators, and binders, can supply some or all of the necessary "magic items" though class abilities. Monks none.
Monks get Dimension Door, and can get miss chance from invisible fist and the truenaming fighting style-I think it can get they prereq feats from a combat style leaving it just needing to loose a few skill points.




The point, however, is not that a decent class can get higher AC than a monk. The point is that the monk still needs his AC boosted to have it be worth a damn. When the monsters hit you on a 1, it doesn't matter if your AC is 27 or 10.
Other than the 17-204 damage that the other creature can freely get from power attacking, or free 8 AC

I like Incarnate/Monk or Totemist/monk, you lose out on 5 BAB, but you get +11 to hit from incarnate, or a bunch of natural attacks from totemist, as well as access to almost everything the monk needs. Druid/monk is the broken option

[TypoNinja]

Its AC bonus has normal armor beat, and magical armor costs the same as bracers.


No?

BoA + 8 64,000 gp

Fullplate +8 armor bonus 1,500 gp

now +8 armor costs +64,000 but that's hardly the same thing, since even +8 studded leather is still more AC than straight BoA never mind +8 fullplate doubling your AC for a measly 1800gp over straight BoA.

[Lans]

No?

BoA + 8 64,000 gp

Fullplate +8 armor bonus 1,500 gp

now +8 armor costs +64,000 but that's hardly the same thing, since even +8 studded leather is still more AC than straight BoA never mind +8 fullplate doubling your AC for a measly 1800gp over straight BoA.
Great, now add in the above monks +14 AC bonus and compare the 2 numbers.

[Augmental]

Monks get Dimension Door,

Dimension door can only be used 1/day, and you can't attack after using it.

[Lans]

Dimension door can only be used 1/day, and you can't attack after using it.
Which is once a day better than not.
There is Battle Jump, and that feat from CW.

[Augmental]

Which is once a day better than not.

Actually, it's even less than a day better; the monk can't attack after using abundant step.

[thethird]

For punching stuff with a feel of wuxia (and no spells) I would go punchbarian // unarmed swordsage.

Gwazi magnum: seriously monk is terribad at what it tries to do, it needs every stat (but charisma), its class features don't work together (speed bonus + actions that take a full round), a lot of gear dependence.

[Karnith]

Actually, it's even less than a day better; the monk can't attack after using abundant step.
If you're willing to sink a feat into it, there is the Sun School feat (from Complete Warrior).

[DMVerdandi]

Definitely Look at
Ferocity Spirit Lion Barbarian 1/ Factotum 1/(Sneak Attack)Thug 18
//Unarmed swordsage 20

Pick up Able Learner, Superior Unarmed Strike, Versatile Unarmed Strike, Intuitive attack and power attack.

BUFF WIS, KICK ASS. If you can pick up some flaws and bust jaws.

How does it work? Well, the ferocity spirit lion barbarian gives you the pounce and ferocity for an extra little kick when you need it.

Factotum gives you all skills as class skills. Spend points on UMD.

Sneak attack thug gives you sneak attack and most of your BAB.

Unarmed swordsage gives you maneuvers with some monk abilities.

Yes, you can't use maneuvers at the same time as your pounce, but you just gotta feel out which one to use at which time. I would main Diamond Mind, almost exclusively.

Open up with sapphire nightmare blade and get off that sick ass sneak attack damage, and go in between pouncing and maneuver strikes for economy.

[Flickerdart]

Great, now add in the above monks +14 AC bonus and compare the 2 numbers.
Sure, as soon as you add the +5 tome and +6 item of Wisdom that the Monk needed to get that Wisdom, not to mention the amount of items he would need to taking major losses in the other stats that he needs.

[rexreg]

this is backtracking a little, but University is not a homebrew feat...
it comes from an AEG book called Feats (original name, huh?)...plz note it is 3.0, not 3.5...
University is a Background Feat...i have used it w/ characters & love it

the prereq is a 13 Int.
it gives you +8 Skill points @ 1st lvl & +2 every level thereafter
you start the game w/ 100gp less than normal

[tyckspoon]

this is backtracking a little, but University is not a homebrew feat...
it comes from an AEG book called Feats (original name, huh?)...plz note it is 3.0, not 3.5...
University is a Background Feat...i have used it w/ characters & love it


3rd party printed material is basically still homebrew, as far as most people are concerned. A bit of an unfair double standard, considering the scattershot nature of balance in Wizard's own books, but it's there.

[Lans]

Sure, as soon as you add the +5 tome and +6 item of Wisdom that the Monk needed to get that Wisdom, not to mention the amount of items he would need to taking major losses in the other stats that he needs. Sorry, I was basing that on the previous post which I didn't see mention using a tome.
It would only need +6 item of wisdom and a +1 tome for 14, but it only need to beat 8.

[ericgrau]

You need it to hit more often. By level 6 medium BAB will start to hurt. It is especially important to have a high attack bonus when you are using secondary attacks, and less important on single attacks (but still useful). Now if you can get something better than more hits from dual medium BAB (or medium + poor) classes, then it might be worth it. But otherwise try to get full BAB if you can. Most people who dismiss it either have an uber optimized alternative or a poor head for numbers.

Trying to squeeze out 16 BAB by level 20 OTOH, is pointless. That attack at -15 is almost useless unless you pumped out a superb attack bonus, and intentionally taking a -4 is not a good start for that.

[Gwazi Magnum]

@University: Thanks, I'm glad I did finally find the feat.
But if it wasn't made by Wizard (so it's homebrew unless if Wizard allowed it as official), then it's probably something I wouldn't be able to use anyways.

@Gestalt Options:

Factotum: I'd rather avoid factotum, I want my character to be good at the skills himself, not be dependent on one time a day bonus.

In addition, my goal isn't to cover every skill (and effectively leave other players in the shadow) but to be proficient in a decent amount of skills so he is useful to the team but not overshadowing them.

Unarmed swordsage: It does look interesting, I'll have to look more into it however before making a final decision.

Barbarian: I'm actually having issues finding the brawling variant here. The best I can find is something about charges, and I don't want my guy to have to charge at people to do well in battle.

That and Bear totem, but that's purely grappling. I don't want to grapple, but I want to punch things hard. Yes I noticed this can be mixed with swordsage and the problem is fine, but the fact it was suggested with factotum seems to suggest it's something Barbarian has that makes punches so good.

Only thing I can think of is rage, and concept wise I don't want my guy needing to rage to hit things. Also mechanically I dislike how it's limited and afterwards I suffer. Plus it's just +STR, nothing that justifies using fists over a weapon when not losing his gear.

[Karnith]

Factotum: I'd rather avoid factotum, I want my character to be good at the skills himself, not be dependent on one time a day bonus.Thanks to their skill points and their Brains Over Brawn ability, factotums excel at this, so I'm not sure what the problem is. Cunning Knowledge is just an extra boost over and above what you would get normally (and is additionally once per day per skill, not simply once per day). If you're relying on it to make your skill checks, then you've gone horribly wrong at some point along the way.

Barbarian: I'm actually having issues finding the brawling variant here. The best I can find is something about charges, and I don't want my guy to have to charge at people to do well in battle.
The City Brawler variant barbarian can be found in Dragon Magazine #349, on page 92.

Only thing I can think of is rage, and concept wise I don't want my guy needing to rage to hit things. Also mechanically I dislike how it's limited and afterwards I suffer. Plus it's just +STR, nothing that justifies using fists over a weapon when not losing his gear.
You could just fluff Rage as being a heightened state of concentration or something. Additionally, rages also generally last through entire combat encounters, unless you're in fights that you aren't supposed to win and/or truly massive fights.

[thethird]

I was going to write a post mentioning how barbarians without rage are more likely to hit things than monks, just due to their bigger bab and probably more strength but then... well I wrote it regardless. I guess.

[Gavinfoxx]

Barbarian variants! Some are an either-or proposition. Note you can have one Spirit Totem and one normal Totem.

Whirling Frenzy: System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy

Ferocity: Cityscape Web Enhancement http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a

Spirit Lion Totem: Complete Champion

Wolf Totem: System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#barbarianVariantTotemB arbarian

Bear Totem: System Resource Document or Unearthed Arcana http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#barbarianVariantTotemB arbarian

Skilled City Dweller-ride for tumble: Cityscape Web Enhancement http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a

City Brawler: Dragon Magazine #349

Streetfighter: Cityscape Web Enhancement http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070228a

[Karnith]

Note you can have one Spirit Totem and one normal Totem.
That's only if they don't both trade out fast movement, though, which basically limits you to combining Horse or Wolf Totem (and Jaguar, too, I suppose) with Spirit Totem.

And given what Horse Totem gives you, you're really limited to Wolf Totem with a Spirit Totem.

[Gavinfoxx]

Karnith: True. Yea, you can't trade out the same thing twice in general, though.

My favorite combination would likely be:

-Whirling Frenzy
-Spirit Lion Totem
-Wolf Totem
-Streetfighter
-Skilled City Dweller, Ride for Tumble
-City Brawler

With some of the feats that improved unarmed combat (improved natural attack unarmed strike, superior unarmed strike).

And Rage, or Ferocity, or Whirling Frenzy, is a combat focus / combat trance / bullet time.

For example, this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGCMfprPJoA

At precisely time stamp 1:35, is the main character going into a Rage / Ferocity / Whirling Frenzy... Most likely Whirling Frenzy, given the charge and the number of attacks.

[Karnith]

With some of the feats that improved unarmed combat (improved natural attack unarmed strike, superior unarmed strike).
Taking Snap Kick at some point is pretty sweet on a punchbarian, too.

[Person_Man]

Gwazi,

Welcome to your first Monk bashing thread. You will see them frequently on any forum which discusses D&D, as Monks are generally considered to be a poorly designed, weak, and low-Tier (http://www.brilliantgameologists.com/boards/?topic=1002.0) class. This shouldn't necessarily dissuade you from playing one if that's what you want to do. You should simply be aware that playing one is more difficult and less optimal then other classes. (It's like playing Halflings in Blood Bowl, Dan Hibiki in most of the Street Fighter series, the Kansas City Chiefs in the NFL, or limiting yourself solely to Rock in Ro Sham Bo).

Anywho, to accomplish your goals of being competent without any gear and being able to punch things well, I'm going to suggest Psychic Rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) 20//Warblade 20 (Int based, better Skills, full BAB, higher damage output) or Psychic Warrior 20//Swordsage 20 (Wis based, better AC, access to a wider variety of powers and maneuvers).

I would also note that any psionic class has access to the Inertial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm) power, which replaces the need to buy traditional armor. Any Wisdom based build can just buy a Monk's Belt (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Monk's_Belt). (Or you can just be a Dexterity based build). And any class can be effective when unarmed if you have a good source of bonus damage, such as Power Attack, Sneak Attack, and/or Tome of Battle maneuvers, etc. The base damage from your unarmed strike (1d3 vs 2d10) is generally negligible compared to the bonus damage that you get from other sources. (Unless you're specifically optimizing your effective size (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7081777), which will give you large base damage if the encounter occurs in a space that you can fit into. Though you can get similarly high damage numbers lots of other ways).

[Gavinfoxx]

The difference between 1d3 and 2d10 is... uhh..

avg 2 vs avg 11, so a difference of 9 points of damage, on average. Which really isn't all that much, considering.

[Shining Wrath]

Full BAB can be traded away, but what you trade it away for had better be pretty awesome.

For what it's worth, the Swordsage of Tome of Battle also lacks full BAB.

The Battle Dancer from Dragon Compendium has Unarmed Strike at first level and full BAB. It is not a strong class, though.

You might try 1 level of Battle Dancer for the Unarmed Strike, and then go Warblade. Warblade gives you full BAB and D12 HD - only the Knight and the Barbarian share that among the base classes, and I will assure you that a Warblade beats either in a stand-up fight at medium level or higher.

[Emmerask]

full bab really is not important at all, you can do sooo many things that completely negate the "disadvantage".

As for monks, sadly they are on the weak side, though depending on the overall powerlevel of the team they can still be a viable addition to the adventuring party if properly build and maybe even more important the class is pretty much the most fun to build stuff around (I duno why maybe its an underdog thing^^).

[shaikujin]

If you are using gestalt, with some moderately careful selection of levels, you shouldn't be losing BAB at all.

Gestalt means you combine the best feature of 2 classes into 1. So, don't use fractional BAB, but instead use the other side of gestalt to shore up levels where you don't gain a BAB increase.

Simple example level 10 Monk with 3 Barbarian levels:

{table]Level | Monk BAB progression | Barbarian BAB progression | Gestalt BAB
1| 0 (Monk 1) | 1 (Barbarian 1) | 1
2| 1 (Monk 2) | Free| 1
3| 1 (Monk 3) | Free| 1
4| 1 (Monk 4) | Free| 1
5| 0 (Monk 5) | 1 (Barbarian 2) | 1
6| 1 (Monk 6) | Free| 1
7| 1 (Monk 7) | Free| 1
8| 1 (Monk 8) | Free| 1
9| 0 (Monk 9) | 1 (Barbarian 3) | 1
10| 1 (Monk 10) | Free| 1
[/table]



Another example but with 2 medium BAB classes: Druid and Monk (with 1 level of Barbarian at level 1):

{table]Level | Class 1 BAB progression | Class 2 BAB progression | Gestalt BAB
1| 0 (Druid 1) | 1 (Barbarian 1) | 1
2| 1 (Druid 2) | Free| 1
3| 1 (Druid 3) | Free| 1
4| 1 (Druid 4) | 0 (Monk 1) | 1
5| 0 (Druid 5) | 1 (Monk 2) | 1
6| 1 (Druid 6) | Free| 1
7| 1 (Druid 7) | Free| 1
8| 1 (Druid 8) | Free| 1
9| 0 (Druid 9) | 1 (Monk 3) | 1
10| 1 (Druid 10) | Free| 1
[/table]

Same can be done with Saves.

[Flickerdart]

If you are using gestalt, with some moderately careful selection of levels, you shouldn't be losing BAB at all.
That's not how gestalt works. The "Base Attack Bonus" entry clearly reads "Choose the better progression from the two classes." A progression is not a single number, it's the entire 1-20 line.

[shaikujin]

That's not how gestalt works. The "Base Attack Bonus" entry clearly reads "Choose the better progression from the two classes." A progression is not a single number, it's the entire 1-20 line.

The BAB increment a char gets at each level from the previous level, is a progression too, right?

Does it have to be the entire 1-20 line when BAB progression is being referred to?

How does that affect a non gestalt multiclass character with 4 Fighter and 6 Barb? Does he only get 6 BAB because that the better progression?

[Flickerdart]

The BAB increment a char gets at each level from the previous level, is a progression too, right?

Does it have to be the entire 1-20 line when BAB progression is being referred to?

How does that affect a non gestalt multiclass character with 4 Fighter and 6 Barb? Does he only get 6 BAB because that the better progression?
The increment is an increment, not a progression. In your example, the "better progression" rule, which is a gestalt rule, doesn't apply and you use normal multiclass rules - such a character has 10 BAB. But you cannot simply take a 3/4 BAB class on each side of a gestalt and slot in full BAB classes when you would drop a point of BAB, because your overall progression is still 3/4 and that's what you get.

It's the same reason you can't go Rogue 20//Barbarian 1/SA Fighter 19 and end up with 20d6 sneak attack - class features also explicitly accrue at the rate of the faster class.

[shaikujin]

The increment is an increment, not a progression. In your example, the "better progression" rule, which is a gestalt rule, doesn't apply and you use normal multiclass rules - such a character has 10 BAB. But you cannot simply take a 3/4 BAB class on each side of a gestalt and slot in full BAB classes when you would drop a point of BAB, because your overall progression is still 3/4 and that's what you get.

It's the same reason you can't go Rogue 20//Barbarian 1/SA Fighter 19 and end up with 20d6 sneak attack - class features also explicitly accrue at the rate of the faster class.

Damn, that SA fighter/rogue example does make sense...I better hope my DM don't see this...

[TuggyNE]

I better hope my DM don't see this...

Any time you have to hope your DM doesn't see some logical explanation of how the rules function, you should reconsider just how much it's worth to you to have a super-awesome character. Y'know?

But that's probably enough preaching for now. :smallwink:

[Gwazi Magnum]

I'm taking more of a look at Barbarians variants, they all look pretty awesome.

However none of them are from core, which means more things to request the DM to approve which means higher chance of stuff being denied.

So to be on the safe side, are there non-variant options I can try to use incase my DM decides he doesn't like how many variants I'm using?

@Psionics: Sadly in this campaign for balance reasons we're not having any player be a spellcasting class because it's an OP system and causes one player to gain too much spot light.

Psionics having this same issue are also not allowed as a result, otherwise there I good chance I would be using it somewhere.

[Evolved Shrimp]

But you cannot simply take a 3/4 BAB class on each side of a gestalt and slot in full BAB classes when you would drop a point of BAB, because your overall progression is still 3/4 and that's what you get.

I dunno – to me the wording also sounds like you can pick the better increment at each level, although I admit it is open to interpretation:


Each time [a gestalt character] gains a new level, he chooses two classes, takes the best aspects of each, and applies them to his characteristics.

Also note that if you read this to mean “choose the progression for all 20 levels”, you should be able to get full BAB simply by taking a full-BAB class for your 20th level. In other words, Commoner19/Fighter1//Wizard20 would have full BAB.

Edit: Even more interestingly, it seems that a Fighter19/Commoner1//Wizard 20 would have to have BAB 10 by that reading – that doesn’t sound right.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Is there a Barbarian variant that replaces rage with a passive ability? Rather than something like ferocity which is really rage with DEX?

I prefer abilities that are passive/always on rather than those you need to activate expecially if later followed with a penalty. Yes I know penalties go away at level 17, but that's a long time to wait for and there's still the issue where the power doesn't even last all the time so the DM could start drag on fights with the purpose of draining me out.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Actually, now that I think about it, Gestalt allows for two classes or one class and one high LA race, would using a powerful race be better than two classes?

[Karnith]

Actually, now that I think about it, Gestalt allows for two classes or one class and one high LA race, would using a powerful race be better than two classes?
Not really. Races with racial HD and level adjustments are virtually always worse than equivalent-ECL class levels because level adjustments are so inflated, particularly if you're looking to build a melee-type (though it is at least better in a gestalt game than in a regular game).

Certain low-LA things are often worth it, though, like Goliath, or templates like Half-minotaur, Mineral Warrior or Feral.

[Flickerdart]

There are edge cases where a powerful race will grant you a unique ability you can't get anywhere else, and by being able to use a real class at the same time, you are able to capitalize on that. But using your gestalt just for more numbers is almost always a waste.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Ok, my DM is really bad at wording things (and leaving out details) sometimes.

Although anything outside of core books (MM, PHB & DMG) needs to be approved by him first, all classes that aren't from those books aren't allowed.

In other words, no swordsage.

If I want to be an unarmed fighter I have to go monk.

[Jeff the Green]

Barbarian would still be better.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Barbarian would still be better.

But he has no unarmed tree.

It's basically 1d3+Strength

Where

1. My previous character in the last campaign uses high strength, I'd rather not repeat a high strength character

2. The dice (The main issue) can be fixed with monks belt, but the issue there is that it's from an item so when gone his unarmed is gimped. And part of the reasons I want high unarmed is because he'll be covered when his gear is gone.

[Jeff the Green]

But he has no unarmed tree.

It's basically 1d3+Strength

Where

1. My previous character in the last campaign uses high strength, I'd rather not repeat a high strength character

2. The dice (The main issue) can be fixed with monks belt, but the issue there is that it's from an item so when gone his unarmed is gimped. And part of the reasons I want high unarmed is because he'll be covered when his gear is gone.

The thing is that the boost from dice that monks get (1d3 vs. 2d10) is equivalent to 9 damage. Barbarians' rage + the extra 5 BAB bonus almost trumps that.

Also, an unarmed non-strength focused fighter is going to be massively underpowered without Tome of Battle.

[Gwazi Magnum]

The thing is that the boost from dice that monks get (1d3 vs. 2d10) is equivalent to 9 damage. Barbarians' rage + the extra 5 BAB bonus almost trumps that.

Also, an unarmed non-strength focused fighter is going to be massively underpowered without Tome of Battle.

I'm playing Gestalt, so my Monk will end up having full BAB.

But what exactly in ToB are you reffering to?

Because I can still use that book, and what's in it, just note the classes (or maneuvers/stances because it was ruled to be too close to just being the classes).

[Karnith]

1. My previous character in the last campaign uses high strength, I'd rather not repeat a high strength characterThen you shouldn't playing a monk (or a melee-type at all, really), because they're Strength-dependent, too.

2. The dice (The main issue) can be fixed with monks belt, but the issue there is that it's from an item so when gone his unarmed is gimped. And part of the reasons I want high unarmed is because he'll be covered when his gear is gone.If you're worried about not having gear, don't play as a monk. They are the most item-dependent (PC) class in Core. (I feel like someone may have said this before.)

Because I can still use that book, and what's in it, just note the classes (or maneuvers/stances because it was ruled to be too close to just being the classes).
He was referring to maneuvers (unless I am missing something big), so you won't get much benefit.

Actually, I take that back. You can take Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick, and get the main benefit that you want from being a monk without actually having to be a monk.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Then you shouldn't playing a monk (or a melee-type at all, really), because they're Strength-dependent, too.
If you're worried about not having gear, don't play as a monk. They are the most item-dependent (PC) class in Core.

I mean my last guy is in the 40's for strength.

I don't mind someone with decent strength, but I don't want it to be his sole focus.


Actually, I take that back. You can take Superior Unarmed Strike and Snap Kick, and get the main benefit that you want from being a monk without actually having to be a monk.

This I have to grant is a good point, I'm only minimally behind by not being a monk.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Relooked at it, and I know mechanically this is probably a bad idea.

But I like the Monks bonus AC, speed, ki strikes, flurry of blows and all high saving throws so I think I'm going with Monk. High BAB I can cover with Gestalt.

Though this leaves me four main questions at the moment (I'll probably get more the deeper I get into making the Monk)

1. I'm thinking gestalting with fighter for weapon focus and spec so I don't need to worry too much on strength, and for those suggesting Barbarian, I don't want to rely on a temporary ability like rage and due to alignment clash that mix wouldn't work anyways.

2. Any ideas for skills? Like how to gain more skill points and/or class skills?
I considered being Gestalt with a rogue to address this, but it leaves my BAB & health lower along with weaker unarmed combat which seems a bit costly.

3. I'm defelently using variants to get rid of slow fall. But I'm wondering if I should replace it with the ability to run up walls or the ability to run on water.

4. If I take superior unarmed strike, does it become kind of pointless if I choose level Monk up to 20 because then they hit their max unarmed damage dice? Or is there any table I look at to scale up Monk unarmed damage once it goes above 2d10?

[Jeff the Green]

Okay, if you're set on being an unarmed, unarmored, non-strength focused monk, take the Sleeping Tiger variant for Weapon Finesse at 1st level. Then Martial Study for a Shadow Hand maneuver and Shadow Blade. Now you have Dexterity to attack and damage. You can get all of that at 1st level as a human, or as anything else with one flaw.

On the other side, perhaps Paladin will help. Take Serenity from Dragon Compendium. It lets you base your paladin abilities on Wisdom, so you get Wisdom to saves, Wisdom-based smites, and Wisdom Spells. If you're allowed Prestige Paladin, go Cleric 4/Fighter 1/PrC Paladin 10. You'll lose one point of BAB, but more than make up for it in spells. Take Travel Devotion instead of the travel domain, and try to get another domain that gives you skills you like.

Something else that will help is taking the Lion Tribe Warrior feat from Shining South. It gives you pounce (full attack on a charge) with a light weapon, which UAS is. Requires Human, and is regional-specific.

You'll probably want Power Attack at some point too.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Maneuvers aren't allowed so I can't take Shadow Blade.

Honestly my rolled scores (after level 4 and 8, starting at 8) are:

18, 14, 12, 12, 10, 10

So I'm thinking my order should be...

WIS, STR, CON, INT, DEX, CHA

Maybe make INT 14 if I find enough skills to focus on.

Paladin idea seems nice (will give my class skill Diplomacy too I've been looking for), but the only real feature of it I'm interested in is Divine Grace, I don't much care for the other stuff.

Also we're going non-spellcasting campaign so I'm making a mostly if not fully Martial character here.

Note: Due to my whole theme of unarmed, unarmoured and ready to handle stuff when the DM puts us in situations with no gear I am considering picking up Vow of Poverty, thoughts?

[Jeff the Green]

Honestly, with those rolls and no shadow blade, unarmed unarmored monk isn't feasible.

Do not take Vow of Poverty. You will have literally no way to harm flying enemies.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Honestly, with those rolls and no shadow blade, unarmed unarmored monk isn't feasible.

Do not take Vow of Poverty. You will have literally no way to harm flying enemies.

Is there a way I can take advantage of the jump skill and a Monks high speed for this purpose?

Because as cool as flight is, I prefer the bonuses from Vow of Poverty.

[Gavinfoxx]

Is there a way I can take advantage of the jump skill and a Monks high speed for this purpose?

Because as cool as flight is, I prefer the bonuses from Vow of Poverty.

Nope. Not at all. No, not even then. And the VoP bonuses really aren't; you can get the same amount of useful bonuses from your wealth by level, or even LESS than wealth by level.

[Flickerdart]

Is there a way I can take advantage of the jump skill and a Monks high speed for this purpose?

No, for three reasons:
1: It's super easy to just fly out of range of even the highest jumper.
2: Even if you manage to reach them, you can only make one attack at best (and maybe no attacks, since they may be too high for you to get to them in one move action).
3: Even if you manage to accomplish something with the single punch, you now fall down and injure yourself severely.

[Karnith]

Nope. Not at all. No, not even then. And the VoP bonuses really aren't; you can get the same amount of useful bonuses from your wealth by level, or even LESS than wealth by level.
Someone did the math a while ago, and I believe that you get the rough equivalent of WBL in the bonuses from VoP. It's just that VoP gives you the equivalent of WBL spent very, very poorly, and unless you're in a game with severely reduced WBL (as in having virtually no wealth) you're going to be better off getting to choose what items you buy.

EDIT: For example, at 17th-level, VoP gives you a Regeneration ability that mimics a Ring of Regeneration, which costs 90,000 gold. Standard 17th-level WBL is 340,000 gold, so that's getting the equivalent of an item that would cost over a quarter of your WBL at that level. It's just that a Ring of Regeneration is a terrible item that's horribly over-priced and no one would ever want one.

[Gavinfoxx]

Didn't 3.0 Regeneration give you fast healing 1 with the regeneration hard to kill benefit?

[Karnith]

Didn't 3.0 Regeneration give you fast healing 1 with the regeneration hard to kill benefit?
The 3.0 SRD's Ring of Regeneration looks to be basically the same as the 3.5 version.

EDIT: And 3.0 regeneration rules look basically the same as those in 3.5.

So, I don't think so?

[Zombimode]

Okay, if you're set on being an unarmed, unarmored, non-strength focused monk, take the Sleeping Tiger variant for Weapon Finesse at 1st level. Then Martial Study for a Shadow Hand maneuver and Shadow Blade. Now you have Dexterity to attack and damage. You can get all of that at 1st level as a human, or as anything else with one flaw.

While the idea behind this suggestion is a good one, the described way does not work.

1. You can't get a stance with Martial Study. You need Martial Stance for this.
2. Martial Stance requires at least one maneuver (which, in this case, means that you'll have to take Martial Study as well).
3. Point 2 is actually redundant since you still need to qualify for the stances/maneuvers taken with Martial Stance/Martial Study. A 1 HD creature, like a first level (non initiator class) character, has an Initiator Level of 0,5 and thus does not qualify for any maneuver at all.

You need 3 feats in total, non of which can be taken at 1st level.

[Lans]

The thing is that the boost from dice that monks get (1d3 vs. 2d10) is equivalent to 9 damage. Barbarians' rage + the extra 5 BAB bonus almost trumps that.

I think flurry for the most part balances with a full BAB, outside of charging. It might seem like it doesn't, but monks are MAD, and don't get any attack boosts like almost every other class.


No, for three reasons:
1: It's super easy to just fly out of range of even the highest jumper.
2: Even if you manage to reach them, you can only make one attack at best (and maybe no attacks, since they may be too high for you to get to them in one move action).
3: Even if you manage to accomplish something with the single punch, you now fall down and injure yourself severely.

You could grapple try or stunning fist.

I thought there was a ruling that if you don't take damage from jumps as long as you land on the same level as you started

[Gavinfoxx]

I thought there was a ruling that if you don't take damage from jumps as long as you land on the same level as you started

...No? And so you have a single stunning fist attempt, and that is assuming it will be vulnerable to stunning fist or the DC is low enough that such a thing will work?? Or that it's possible to grapple the creature? Or that the creature isn't invisible?

You really, really, really need to look at Juriku's Monk Remix:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=150122

Combine it with this vow of poverty fix:

http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4030.0

And you are fine.

[Karnith]

I thought there was a ruling that if you don't take damage from jumps as long as you land on the same level as you started
The closest that I could find in the SRD was this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#falling):
The basic rule is simple: 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6.

If a character deliberately jumps instead of merely slipping or falling, the damage is the same but the first 1d6 is nonlethal damage. A DC 15 Jump check or DC 15 Tumble check allows the character to avoid any damage from the first 10 feet fallen and converts any damage from the second 10 feet to nonlethal damage. Thus, a character who slips from a ledge 30 feet up takes 3d6 damage. If the same character deliberately jumped, he takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 2d6 points of lethal damage. And if the character leaps down with a successful Jump or Tumble check, he takes only 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 1d6 points of lethal damage from the plunge.
Also, you still have the problem that reaching even low-flying creatures is going to require an inordinately high jump check. If you're medium, you've got a reach of 8 feet, so it takes a DC 48 jump check with a running start to reach something 20 feet in the air.

[Jeff the Green]

While the idea behind this suggestion is a good one, the described way does not work.

1. You can't get a stance with Martial Study. You need Martial Stance for this.
2. Martial Stance requires at least one maneuver (which, in this case, means that you'll have to take Martial Study as well).
3. Point 2 is actually redundant since you still need to qualify for the stances/maneuvers taken with Martial Stance/Martial Study. A 1 HD creature, like a first level (non initiator class) character, has an Initiator Level of 0,5 and thus does not qualify for any maneuver at all.

You need 3 feats in total, non of which can be taken at 1st level.

You're right. I forgot that IL rounds down to 0 at 1st level and that Shadow Blade requires a stance rather than a maneuver. That means the earliest a non-initiator could get it is 3rd (something 1/Fighter 2, taking Martial Study and Martial Stance as fighter bonuses), or 9th without Fighter (Martial Study at 3rd, Stance at 6th, Shadow Blade at 9th).


I think flurry for the most part balances with a full BAB, outside of charging. It might seem like it doesn't, but monks are MAD, and don't get any attack boosts like almost every other class.

Uh... no it doesn't. First, you're still doing pitiful damage even if you hit with both attacks and you need those attack boosts to hit. It's the same problem as archery. Unless you have bonus damage (such as sneak attack), multiple attacks aren't worth much.

[Karnith]

Uh... no it doesn't. First, you're still doing pitiful damage even if you hit with both attacks and you need those attack boosts to hit. It's the same problem as archery. Unless you have bonus damage (such as sneak attack), multiple attacks aren't worth much.
Also, damage reduction that you can't overcome (which monks often have problems with) is going to really mess with your damage output.

[Lans]

Uh... no it doesn't. First, you're still doing pitiful damage even if you hit with both attacks and you need those attack boosts to hit. It's the same problem as archery. Unless you have bonus damage (such as sneak attack), multiple attacks aren't worth much.

Yeah, I forgot to take into account not being able to get 1.5 strength on it, and not being able to use a good weapon. Otherwise 2 hits at 70% should be close to par with 1 hit at 95%, if you have pounce or sudden leap.


...No? And so you have a single stunning fist attempt, and that is assuming it will be vulnerable to stunning fist or the DC is low enough that such a thing will work?? Or that it's possible to grapple the creature? Or that the creature isn't invisible?


I was assuming the character was able to do the said jump+punch. The stunning fist or grapple might not work, but even 5% chance at stunning is better than nothing.

[Gavinfoxx]

I was assuming the character was able to do the said jump+punch. The stunning fist or grapple might not work, but even 5% chance at stunning is better than nothing.

And well below what that character should be able to do, how they should be able to contribute, at that point. There are par scores for what you should handle, and the bar isn't THAT high, and it behooves most characters to have or find methods of handling them!

[Gwazi Magnum]

So it seems like Jump won't cut it.

Are there any ways to fly though without items?

Abilities? Items?




http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=4030.0

And you are fine.

This looks broken.

Essentially it's saying, you have no gold but you get to pick items as if you still have gold, so you've got identical stats so it becomes more of a skin thing... until you consider the following

1. You can pick any magic item ever, the DM won't be able to have you go on some quest or something, or find a master enchanter, it's as if you have console command for every item in existance, and that can screw some campaigns over

2. They can't be lost... your character is immune to situations without gear.
Granted, my character is built that way but he's built for the purpose of not needing gear and he is paying a price for that by being slightly weaker than he has potential for in situations where he would of been able to use gear.

[Gavinfoxx]

It's not broken because that was the case in the game already anyway.

Seriously. Magic item rarity is by cost, and planar metropolises are a Plane Shift away -- which you get access to by the time you want the things that would be in it.

It is extremely easy to never be waylaid at night by level five, when lesser rod of extend rope trick comes online.

Also, there are very, very, very few character classes that don't need gear.

Druid, Wildshape Ranger, Binder, Incarnate, Totemist, Unarmed Swordsage, the Easy Bake Wizard (it's a specific build), is about it.

A way to fly without items is to:

a.) be a race with flight
b.) be a class that gets flight

Generally.

Wealth by level is not an optional part of the game. The game ASSUMES you have wbl, and the actual function of the game breaks down without it. The math inherent in the game assumes that you have your wbl, and it is useful, and your gear doesn't get stolen, and the gear doesn't get damaged or turned off!


Those campaigns you are talking about?

D&D 3.5e is just about the worst possible system to run them! It is the highest magic item game system I know of, and I know a lot of systems. Note how no one disagreed with those links being balanced, except you...

[Jeff the Green]

Wealth by level is not an optional part of the game. The game ASSUMES you have wbl, and the actual function of the game breaks down without it. The math inherent in the game assumes that you have your wbl, and it is useful, and your gear doesn't get stolen, and the gear doesn't get damaged or turned off!\

The worst thing isn't the math. VoP actually does a good job of boosting your numbers up to what a normal character would have. It's the qualitative abilities that are missing. No ability to fly is the big one. No ability to overcome most DR. No ability to negate debilitating statuses. No ability to see invisible or ethereal creatures. No teleportation or other extraordinary movement. Once you get past, oh, 8th level, these are crippling.

[Karnith]

This looks broken.It's not. It's really just not. It's normally going to be a feat tax to be able to play the game normally.

1. You can pick any magic item ever, the DM won't be able to have you go on some quest or something, or find a master enchanter, it's as if you have console command for every item in existance, and that can screw some campaigns overIt may interest you to know that this is the default assumption for D&D 3.5. WBL and community wealth levels in which virtually anything is purchase-able are the default setting, and not allowing them in your game (while it can be fine, if handled correctly) is deviating from the recommendations of the DMG, and will be imposing conditions that will skew the balance of monsters and encounters.

See, for example, the DMG, page 135:

One of the ways in which you can maintain measurable control on PC power is by strictly monitoring their wealth, including their magic items. Table 5–1: Character Wealth by Level is based on average treasures found in average encounters compared with the experience points earned in those encounters. Using that information, you can determine how much wealth a character should have based on her level.(Emphasis mine)

The DMG, page 137:
Every community has a gold piece limit based on its size and population. The gold piece limit (see Table 5–2) is an indicator of the price of the most expensive item available in that community. Nothing that costs more than a community’s gp limit is available for purchase in that community. Anything having a price under that limit is most likely available, whether it be mundane or magical. While exceptions are certainly possible (a boomtown near anewly discovered mine, a farming community impoverished after a prolonged drought), these exceptions are temporary; all communities will conform to the norm over time.(Emphasis mine)

[TypoNinja]

The worst thing isn't the math. VoP actually does a good job of boosting your numbers up to what a normal character would have. It's the qualitative abilities that are missing. No ability to fly is the big one. No ability to overcome most DR. No ability to negate debilitating statuses. No ability to see invisible or ethereal creatures. No teleportation or other extraordinary movement. Once you get past, oh, 8th level, these are crippling.

By the numbers VoP is actually better than buying your own stuff. It works out to a little bit over WBL to try and go shopping to duplicate it.

Its just that it lacks any versatility at all. No ability to adapt to anything other than a straight up stand there and slug situation.

Or the needed abilities come far too late. For example, VoP does give you trueseeing, it just doesn't show up till level 18.

[Gwazi Magnum]

I guess I might want to start looking for a flying race then or something like that.

But note, no one in my team is going to be a spell caster so we won't have access to the fly spell anyways.

Most of VoP weaknesses you guys listed though like status immunity, teleporting etc. most people I find don't have a way to accomplish anyways. At least in the groups I've played in.

I have DR covered though since being Monk I pierce magic, lawful and adamantine DR, and with versatile unarmed strike I can treat my hits as piercing, slashing or bludgeoning which handles even more kinds of DR.

[Flickerdart]

I have DR covered though since being Monk I pierce magic, lawful and adamantine DR, and with versatile unarmed strike I can treat my hits as piercing, slashing or bludgeoning which handles even more kinds of DR.
You can do nothing against cold iron, good, evil, chaotic, silver...and many DRs at higher levels are a mix - a creature with DR/lawful and good laughs at your merely lawful fists.

[Jeff the Green]

You can do nothing against cold iron, good, evil, chaotic, silver...and many DRs at higher levels are a mix - a creature with DR/lawful and good laughs at your merely lawful fists.

Or Cold Iron and Magic or Silver and Magic or...

[Gavinfoxx]

Remember -- if you want to be able to fight high level opponents, try to make sure you can:

a.) beat an Allip (incorporeal, does draining, needs actual magic items, rather than just defeats dr/magic or dr/epic, to affect)
b.) beat a pixie (invisible, flying, dr/cold iron, spell resistance with a ranged attack that doesn't make any noise to do)

[Garret Dorigan]

How about Warlock? Is that available to you?

[Demorden]

Wanna play monk? Do it! But you should know that it's utterly broken, see my signature and related post. It will open your eyes!

Seriously... I have a love/hate relationship with that class.
Love coming from fluff and premise, hate coming from mechanics.

If you really want to be a monk, do it, but you'd better realize its limits.
Try to always have full BAB and have good special abilities. Also, RAW doesn't stop you to take just 2 monk lv, become chaotic, and follow the furious path of the barbarian.

[Gwazi Magnum]

Thanks for the help guys.

But the campaign this thread was made for I decided I was no longer going to be taking part in.

It was highlighted in other threads that the DM is basically treating d&d as a competition between him and players, one rigged in his favor by denying players almost every bonus they could get and noticing this plus recognizing warning signs that past conflicts could arise again I'm choosing to back out of this campaign.