want to balance Fighters, what would you do?

[Tanklin]

Ok... i can't find the search button or something like that in this forum, so i'm creating a new thread about this topic. (i think this topic already exist, but i couldn't find it)
I'll start a campaing as a DM and i want to change a few things. As a player, i think fighters are weak. And i want to improve them a bit, but keep it balanced.

I have a few ideas:

Stupid & sexy Flanders (feels like i'm wearing nothing at all) They're fierce warriors in armor, i think they deserve to reduce armor penalties when climbing, jumping or swiming. I understand barbarians should have more endurance, but fighters should move better using armor & shields.
They should be able to move and run like an stupid & sexy flanders too, without penalties to speed, like dwarves)

(maybe give them a fighter special ability every odd level to reduce armor penalties is one way... another could be simply give the ability to ignore armor penalties at 5th level, for example.


The other thing i was thinking is giving them a bonus to make and resist special attacks as bull rush, trample, grapple etc.
Maybe a "size bonus" every few levels... soy they can have a bonus to those combat situations. What do you think?

Any other ideas you used in your campaign? Maybe roleplaying ideas that could be useful instead of rule changes?

[foolofsound]

I use this awesome homebrew (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140278) by Realms of Chaos. It's just as or more customizable, more interesting, and much better at what it does than the PHB Fighter.

[Toy Killer]

It's been noted a hundred times before, Give fighters bigger numbers and you're still not fixing the problem.

A fighter's problem is that they have zero versitility. They are decent in combat, but typically around a singular shtick and when nothing needs to die, they are dead weight in the party.

You know what else is good at killing people, typically revolving around a singular shtick? Everything else in the game. Tier 1 and 2 is even better at being a fighter then a fighter is. Flickerdart has a quote in his signature about how a fighter can stab himself in the heart, but a Wizard can banish himself to hell. (Or something to that effect)

Start with something out side of combat if you want to fix fighters. Or at very least, give them something that helps the party out significantly.

[Dimers]

Ok... i can't find the search button or something like that in this forum ...

Used to be one but it doesn't exist any more. Google does fine, if your google-fu is sufficient.


I'll start a campaing as a DM and i want to change a few things. As a player, i think fighters are weak. And i want to improve them a bit, but keep it balanced.

Based on the ideas you wrote, it sounds like you want to improve fighters both in and out of combat, but don't intend to change their role in the game. Right?


Any other ideas you used in your campaign? Maybe roleplaying ideas that could be useful instead of rule changes?

Fighters need a lot of good attributes for their role, so granting your fighter stat bonuses is a good idea. I think +1 to one stat each class level would not be going overboard, maybe with some limitation on how frequently they can boost a given stat. Or if you know someone will just take fighter levels straight through a campaign, you can give them higher numbers to begin with. Either way, higher attributes will help them qualify for the feats they need to perform their combat functions well, and will give them better durability too (saves and hit points). It even improves their skills a little, particularly if they invest in Int.

If you're leery of very high attributes, ignoring stat requirements for feats would benefit fighters a little.

I prefer adventurers who are broadly skilled, so I give most classes +2 skill points per level and greatly increase the number of class skills. I also use "backgrounds", an idea I cribbed from Green Ronin Publishing that adds more class skills and a special trait based on the character's youth or history. Example: if your fighter liked to play amateur detective as a kid, he could have access to Hide, Move Silently and Search as permanent class skills, and a free Urban Tracking feat. Using backgrounds is flavorful as well as expansive.

As lots of people will tell you, another fine way to improve a fighter is to make her a warblade or crusader instead. The Tome of Battle is not your enemy!

None of these address a fighter's poor mobility, and none address his lack of immunities (which other classes can achieve through mindblank, freedom of movement spells, miss chance, evasion, venom immunity, etc.). Improving skills can help both in and out of combat, but ultimately, the 3.X D&D system requires magic for a character to be functionally effective at high levels of play. If you're looking for fixes past, say, 8th or 10th level, then you have a lot more to think about.

[Komatik]

Tome of Battle is a friend, indeed. Mobility, ability to apply status effects, control space without devoting your entire build to it, basic defenses against unusual attacks, more skill points, some rudimentary ways to bypass certain otherwise troublesome defenses without the caster's help... A melee character needs it, that book has it. It won't make the fighter types competitive with casters at high levels, but does move the fall-off point a bit later and just generally makes fighter types far more independent.

[Jon_Dahl]

I would add one more step between Greater Weapon Specialization and Epic Weapon Specialization: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=260725

[Man on Fire]

Some things that it would be nice for Fighter to have:
* Buffing abilities similiar to Cavalier from Pathfinder, who has nonmagical ways of helping his allies.
* Maneuvers from Tome of Battle to grant more versality. Warblade is pretty much what Fighter should be.

[undead hero]

Tome of Battle is a friend, indeed. Mobility, ability to apply status effects, control space without devoting your entire build to it, basic defenses against unusual attacks, more skill points, some rudimentary ways to bypass certain otherwise troublesome defenses without the caster's help... A melee character needs it, that book has it. It won't make the fighter types competitive with casters at high levels, but does move the fall-off point a bit later and just generally makes fighter types far more independent.

+4

ToB is WotC way of fixing something without admitting that they were wrong in the first place.

[Dimers]

+4

ToB is WotC way of fixing something without admitting that they were wrong in the first place.


As lots of people will tell you ...

I have magicall power of predict the future! I know what people will said in this thread!

Yes, Tome of Battle is a go-to fix for fighter class in particular. But if there's some reason not to use it -- the player doesn't want to, you don't own it, whatever -- there are still other options.

[JaronK]

ToB really is solid, but for those who don't want it... well, Fighters do require a lot of work.

The fix I like involves a lot of things. First, 4+Int skill points, and Spot, Listen, Sense Motive, Profession, and Knowledge History are added to their skill list (because they're supposed to be guards and soldiers, and K:H is knowledge of warfare). Second, Fighters get a +1 to Trip, Overrun, Disarm, Grapple, and Bullrush per 3 levels, because they're masters of the basics of warfare. Third, all the static bonus feats have a special bonus, so for example Dodge becomes +1 AC vs one target, with an additional +1 AC per two Fighter levels (so now Fighters really are masters of feats).

Then I gave them Adaptive Feats, which they get every 5 Fighter levels. These can't qualify for anything other than the other Adaptive Feats, but you can switch them out on the fly for other Fighter Bonus Feats... at low levels this takes an hour, at high levels it takes a Swift Action (at level 20 you'd have four). This lets a Fighter switch styles as needed. I also gave them the Warblade ability at level 1 that lets them switch weapon feats around.

I also gave them a bonus equal to their Fighter level to knowledge checks to identify the strengths and weaknesses of monsters and to getting strategic advantages, and they can always make such checks untrained. The idea that veteran soldiers of the drow wars can't even identify a drow is stupid.

That was the core of the changes, and the result was they could actually do something out of combat (at the very least stay on watch), and they were actually good at their specialties, and they could switch specialties on the fly. Plus making feats like Iron Will give +2 Will save, +1 per three Fighter levels helped quite a bit so they're not easy to take down.

JaronK

[Dimers]

I also gave them a bonus equal to their Fighter level to knowledge checks to identify the strengths and weaknesses of monsters and to getting strategic advantages ...

I really like that part. Trust the guy who CAN'T casually rearrange reality to figure out the best way to get an edge. Of course, I'd give something similar to other purely mundane characters, like a rogue who doesn't take any UMD.

[prufock]

Tome of Battle is tits, use it if you can. Warblade is a great fighter sub.

I did my own fighter redesign (http://dndfulcrum.wikispaces.com/Fighter), basically stealing the best ideas from assorted variants. It's better, but playtesting won't happen for a few months yet, so how much better is up for debate.

[Telonius]

I would give Fighters 4+Int skill points, give more class skills (spot, listen, etc), make Focus and Specialization scale with Fighter level, allow the feats to apply to any weapon for which you have proficiency (as long as you spend an hour practicing with them each day), and make Power Attack and Dungeon Crasher standard class features.

Then I'd take the nerf bat to casters.

[Grod_The_Giant]

The number of fighter fixes posted on these boards is probably equal to the number of people who regularly write homebrew, if not higher.

Jirikiu (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&noquote=1&p=15039852)did a pretty good take.
Ziegander (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=11599640#post11599640)has done a crapton-- I don't think his extended signature is all the way up to date.
I've (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=276280)got one I'm pretty proud of.

[Jerthanis]

Personally, I might just keep writing more feats on the ends of chains, with a number of prereq feats and base attack requirements such that only Fighters could possibly gain access to most of them.

Like: Leadership -> You get +4 to your effective leadership score -> You own a stronghold, other minor benefits -> Your stronghold is awesome in some respect -> Your noncohort followers can take PC classes -> your noncohort followers level up to some degree -> when in a battle including you, your noncohort followers treat their HD as the same as yours when it comes to checking it against monster and spell effects such as Cloudkill or Blasphemy -> They now use your saves.

Or: Blindfighting -> Blindsense -> Tremorsense -> Blindsight -> True Seeing

Or: Iron Will -> Several Intermediate steps -> Mind Blank

Or: Shield Ward -> Shield bonus now applies as a resistance bonus to saves -> Shield bonus applies normally even while paralyzed or otherwise disabled, including the bonus to saves -> Immune or highly resistant to many common effects such as gazes, clouds, and negative levels while wielding a shield.

Or something like that.

I'd also go along with JaronK's 4+Int skillpoints and expanded skill list... their skill list is atrocious for no good reason considering the Fighter's schtick is as one who is taught how to do what they do and the Barbarian's is just being gifted, and exposed to hard knocks and managing to survive by grit... and they have 4+int skills. What do they have against jocks who also

[Curmudgeon]

If you want to stay consistent with the model of "feats = class features", then give the Fighter more of them. Give them all feats which require "Fighter level X" automatically once (so only one Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, & c.), and a free regional or racial feat (depending on background) if their first class level is Fighter. Also at every level which doesn't have a Fighter Bonus Feat, give them a general feat instead (a general feat at 3, 5, 7, ...). Finally, give all Fighters the Thug (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#fighterVariantThug) skills.

[Piggy Knowles]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273600) is what I plan to use in any games I run. It was inspired by something I saw PhaedrusXY mention on the BG boards ages ago, where he said he gives fighters access to Epic feats after level 12 in his games.

So, basically, this gets:

Slightly better skill points and the necessary skills for guarding, etc.
The ability to take certain [Epic] feats after level 12.
A special version of Weapon Aptitude that can be adjusted with a full-round, standard or (eventually) swift action.
A UMD-like feature that specifically works with weapons and armor, and also has checks to do things like temporarily ignore the penalties on an oversized or exotic weapon, etc.
The ability to craft magic arms and armor, despite not being a spellcaster.


I'm pretty happy with how it turned out, and the sample builds I've put together with it seem like they're pretty fun, while keeping the general "feel" of the fighter. I haven't gotten a chance to test it in an actual game yet, though.

[undead hero]

I have magicall power of predict the future! I know what people will said in this thread!

:smallsigh:

Don't feel to good about yourself, you aren't the only one to see the future. I see that there will be a Monk thread this coming monday

[DMVerdandi]

Want a simple, yet effective fighter? Here is my idea.

1. Take Fighter
2. Take Barbarian
3. Gestalt
4.Allow said Gestalt to gain ACF's and variant features of both classes.
5.use Expert Skills and skill points.
6.Chameleon Bonus feats(Switchable every day, any feat that can be qualified).
7.Hallelujah.


Get rid of old barbarian, and just have them represented by warrior NPC's.
Now you have a tough, highly skilled, martially focused, and highly adaptable combat monster.

STILL isn't tier one or close to it, but is actually something closer to 2 because of the variety gained by the feats.

Refluff Rage as like overdrive or limit break-esque kind of ability. Fighters can tap into their deepest reserve and pull out amazing strength. It's not frenzy, so frothing at the mouth? not so much, but that adrenaline induced focus that gives you the sharpness to just destroy people's faces.

[WhatBigTeeth]

To design a balanced "Fighter" in 3e, I think the whole idea of what a fighter is needs to be torn down.

The entire differentiation of fighter/thief in the traditional fighter/thief/cleric/magic user model relies on the fighter sucking outside combat. That needs to go, just to get started.

And in the second place, different people have said two things over and over again:
A) playing a nonmagical character in a game alongside magical characters is just asking for game imbalance
B) a magical warrior misses the point of why many players want to play fighters.

Usually it's not the same people making those two statements, but they're common enough that both are stances you might reasonably expect players to hold, so both should be addressed.

So, if I were rebuilding the class, there would be three things I would incorporate into it:
1. External Magical abilities. A player doesn't have to miss out on supernatural abilities just because the character doesn't generate them independently. If the fighter had magic gear built into the class, it would sidestep the biggest drawbacks of being a nonmagical character in a magical world - either by learning to forge enchanted weapons and armor (incorporate components from supernatural creatures/events if that still sounds too magical) or by having items built into the class that can scale and develop new magic powers (imagine the PF Aegis and PF Soulknife fluffed like the OA Samurai). Alternatively, combining the Fighter with supernatural beast companions/mounts could give Fighter players access to magical effects and sidestep the limitations of the character's lack of magic.
2. Facilitation. If the fighter can make its allies better at what they do, just having the Fighter around becomes an asset. Things like the Marshal does to help allies punch through DR, like the Truenamer does to Empower allies' spells or like the Squire of Legend does to grant allies actions. This is a somewhat desirable design choice because it allows a fighter to contribute to a team's magic without casting or producing magical effects on his own.
3. Independent noncombat ability. Give fighters the skills to beat things up AND socialize, heal, sneak, craft - and do those things well (as in better than other classes can).

[Sylian]

That was the core of the changes, and the result was they could actually do something out of combat (at the very least stay on watch), and they were actually good at their specialties, and they could switch specialties on the fly.Would this make them tier 3 or tier 4? Strong tier 4, perhaps?

[Evard]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273600) is what I plan to use in any games I run. It was inspired by something I saw PhaedrusXY mention on the BG boards ages ago, where he said he gives fighters access to Epic feats after level 12 in his games.

So, basically, this gets:

Slightly better skill points and the necessary skills for guarding, etc.
The ability to take certain [Epic] feats after level 12.
A special version of Weapon Aptitude that can be adjusted with a full-round, standard or (eventually) swift action.
A UMD-like feature that specifically works with weapons and armor, and also has checks to do things like temporarily ignore the penalties on an oversized or exotic weapon, etc.
The ability to craft magic arms and armor, despite not being a spellcaster.


I'm pretty happy with how it turned out, and the sample builds I've put together with it seem like they're pretty fun, while keeping the general "feel" of the fighter. I haven't gotten a chance to test it in an actual game yet, though.

Hell if you give the epic tag to the Fighter at level 11 (normally level 21) then things won't get to bad. Hmmm perhaps a system of determining when you hit epic based on tier or magic use.

This doesn't mean what you obtained at that point just what your class gives. (Wiz = 9th, bard gets 6th etc). When you start taking epic feats you can choose epic feats with any bonus feats you gain.

Highest Spells: 9th level Lv 21 (start taking epic feats)
Highest Spells: 6th level Lv 18 (start taking epic feats) (Tier 3 caster are here w/ToB)
Highest Spells: 4th level Lv 14 (start taking epic feats)
Highest Spells: None : Lv 10 (start taking epic feats)

Leadership/epic leadership is thrown out the window. Also if you multiclass then you take the higher result as in fighter/wizard would be epic at lvl 21. Or perhaps the fighter side can hit epic and take non magical epic feats but the magic side can't till 21.

[JusticeZero]

Give them a bonus feat at every level, boost them to 6+int skill points, expand their skill list substantially, and give them a couple of minor area group buffs that they trigger by defeating an enemy or confirming a crit. Call it good. People still play Fighters anyways. There are deeper issues, but those can't be fixed just by tweaking the Fighter class.

[Twilightwyrm]

You know what else is good at killing people, typically revolving around a singular shtick? Everything else in the game. Tier 1 and 2 is even better at being a fighter then a fighter is. Flickerdart has a quote in his signature about how a fighter can stab himself in the heart, but a Wizard can banish himself to hell. (Or something to that effect)

While I grant to a certain extant this is true, and that T1s and T2s are both powerful and versatile, I'm getting a bit sick of people throwing out the "wizards can be better fighters than fighters" without context or qualification. Do you, for instance, seriously mean to tell me that a 1st level Wizard is going to, in addition to all their other wizardly duties, make a better fighter than a 1st level Fighter (all things being otherwise equal)? A 2nd level Wizard perhaps? 3rd? Or are we waiting until 5th and 7th level? Higher than that perhaps? The fact of the matter is, the way people talk about "T1s" being better Xs than X class, this is always at least somewhat hyperbolic until you get to high level. Can a 3rd level Wizard Alter Self into a fairly powerful form in order to potentially pull off the position of a "fighter" when it becomes necessary? Sure. Can they do this all day, while still not neglecting all those other things wizards do? Maybe at high level, but generally no

I agree that the Fighter is lacking in versitility. But let's keep some perspective: even if they aren't as powerful as T1 classes, it is important to keep in mind that they are not worthless in comparison either.

[Bucky]

If you want Fighters to be balanced with Tier 2, you need to give them comparable abilities to the tier 2 classes. And you need to do it in a way that feels badass rather than magical. Like,
At level 3, Fighters have dirty tricks that can blind or stun nearby enemies for a couple rounds. They don't need magic for this; a whack on the side of the head will do just fine.
At level 6, Fighters can't fly like casters can, but their new Improved Jumping class feature let them jump hundreds of feat and around corners with a reasonable Jump check.
By level 10, fighters can shatter enchantments and knock off buffs with a well-placed smash. They also have an innate miss chance due to their unpredictable combat movements. Oh, and their finely tuned combat senses can pick out ethereal and invisible enemies too.
At level 20, Fighters are tearing holes in reality with their bare hands so they can drag Outsiders into the Material Plane.

Get the picture?

[Sylian]

Hell if you give the epic tag to the Fighter at level 11 (normally level 21) then things won't get to bad.I checked the SRD for Epic feats and this seems fairly okay. Most Epic feats that a mid-level Fighter would qualify for aren't that broken. Here is a list of what a fighter with max 21 Con, max 21 Str, max 21 Dex and less than 19 Wis can take:

+1 Natural Armor, the ability to not provoke AoO from archery, 3/dr (if you have at least 21 Con), full attack on charge for the first round, energy resistance 10 to a specific energy type, +1 to all saves, +4 to fort, +4 to ref, +4 to will, +4 to some social skills, +30 speed in non-heavy armor, +30 hp, +2 attack with weapon focus, +4 damage weapon specialization, +1 to a stat, unlimited combat reflexes, double dark vision range, crossbows without reload time, penetrating some damage reduction, beating spellcasters with AoO, +4 Initiative.
I don't think allowing them to take some Epic feats early would unbalance the game. Perhaps you could limit some of the stacking effects, and Epic Toughness would have to go, or need to be nerfed. +30 hp at level 21 might not be too much, but at level 12, it's a lot for a feat. +30 speed might seem like a lot, but it does require the Run feat and 21 Dex, and no heavy armor. I'm not sure if that would unbalance, a pure Dex Fighter could probably not abuse that speed anyway.

I'm not optimizer, though, so I might be missing something.

[Silvanoshei]

Ok... i can't find the search button or something like that in this forum, so i'm creating a new thread about this topic. (i think this topic already exist, but i couldn't find it)
I'll start a campaing as a DM and i want to change a few things. As a player, i think fighters are weak. And i want to improve them a bit, but keep it balanced.

I have a few ideas:

Stupid & sexy Flanders (feels like i'm wearing nothing at all) They're fierce warriors in armor, i think they deserve to reduce armor penalties when climbing, jumping or swiming. I understand barbarians should have more endurance, but fighters should move better using armor & shields.
They should be able to move and run like an stupid & sexy flanders too, without penalties to speed, like dwarves)

(maybe give them a fighter special ability every odd level to reduce armor penalties is one way... another could be simply give the ability to ignore armor penalties at 5th level, for example.


The other thing i was thinking is giving them a bonus to make and resist special attacks as bull rush, trample, grapple etc.
Maybe a "size bonus" every few levels... soy they can have a bonus to those combat situations. What do you think?

Any other ideas you used in your campaign? Maybe roleplaying ideas that could be useful instead of rule changes?

Make them wizards. :belkar:

[Amnestic]

At level 6, Fighters can't fly like casters can, but their new Improved Jumping class feature let them jump hundreds of feat and around corners with a reasonable Jump check.


Letting them jump 100s of feet? Fine.
Around corners!? That's just crazytalk.

[Piggy Knowles]

I checked the SRD for Epic feats and this seems fairly okay. Most Epic feats that a mid-level Fighter would qualify for aren't that broken. Here is a list of what a fighter with max 21 Con, max 21 Str, max 21 Dex and less than 19 Wis can take:

+1 Natural Armor, the ability to not provoke AoO from archery, 3/dr (if you have at least 21 Con), full attack on charge for the first round, energy resistance 10 to a specific energy type, +1 to all saves, +4 to fort, +4 to ref, +4 to will, +4 to some social skills, +30 speed in non-heavy armor, +30 hp, +2 attack with weapon focus, +4 damage weapon specialization, +1 to a stat, unlimited combat reflexes, double dark vision range, crossbows without reload time, penetrating some damage reduction, beating spellcasters with AoO, +4 Initiative.
I don't think allowing them to take some Epic feats early would unbalance the game. Perhaps you could limit some of the stacking effects, and Epic Toughness would have to go, or need to be nerfed. +30 hp at level 21 might not be too much, but at level 12, it's a lot for a feat. +30 speed might seem like a lot, but it does require the Run feat and 21 Dex, and no heavy armor. I'm not sure if that would unbalance, a pure Dex Fighter could probably not abuse that speed anyway.

I'm not optimizer, though, so I might be missing something.

I'd check out the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=273600). In my suggestion, a fighter could ignore all stat and skill based requirements for epic feats, but not feat requirements. The feats they were allowed to do this for were:

Armor Skin, Blinding Speed, Combat Archery, Damage Reduction, Devastating Critical, Dire Charge, Distant Shot, Epic Endurance, Epic Fortitude, Epic Prowess, Epic Reflexes, Epic Toughness, Epic Weapon Focus, Epic Weapon Specialization, Epic Will, Fast Healing, Great Constitution, Great Dexterity, Great Strength, Improved Combat Reflexes, Improved Manyshot, Improved Whirlwind Attack, Instant Reload, Legendary Climber, Legendary Leaper, Legendary Rider, Legendary Wrestler, Overwhelming Critical, Penetrate Damage Reduction, Spellcasting Harrier, Storm of Throws, Superior Initiative, Swarm of Arrows, Two-Weapon Rend, Uncanny Accuracy

So, that means they'd be able to pick up feats that let them...



Gain natural armor
Act as hasted
Ignore AoOs when using a bow
Pick up some DR
Gain a save-or-die that only works on a critical
Gain pounce during the first round of combat
Ignore range penalties when using ranged weapons, as long as the enemy is within line of sight
Gain a +10 bonus on physical endeavors that take a long time, such as running
Gain a +4 to Fortitude, Reflex or Will saves
Gain a +1 on all attacks
Gain 30 HP
Get +2 to attacks with a certain weapon
Get +4 to damage with a certain weapon
Gain fast healing 3
Increase Dexterity, Con or Strength by 1
Remove the cap on Combat Reflexes
Fire more arrows with Manyshot
Make full attacks as a standard action, as long as those attacks are against different enemies
Reload any type of crossbow as many times as you need
Climb at full speed without taking penalties
Gain a +10 bonus on grapple checks
Require less distance for a jump check to be considered a running start
Become better at riding animals (no saddle, no ride check to control the mount)
Deal some minor bonus damage on a crit
Let your weapons (including natural weapons) count as a certain material for overcoming DR
Gain an AoO (with bonuses on the check) when a spellcaster tries to cast defensively
Throw weapons at everyone within 30'
Gain an additional +4 to initiative
Fire an arrow at everyone within range
Gain a rend attack when you hit with two weapons
Ignore the miss chance from total concealment with a ranged weapon



None of these are particularly crazy, and some of them are honestly pretty essential for a melee character. It opens up options for the fighter, by giving them access to things like DR, fast healing, pounce or haste (things that any spellcaster already has access to). It adds in some tactical options. It opens up some strategies, like grappling, that used to be the sole purview of druids and psychic warriors. Honestly, a single-classed fighter will NEED stuff like this.

Most importantly, though, it does it all while keeping the same basic mechanic that fighters already have. It doesn't require any new abilities, book keeping, etc. Giving fighters maneuvers is a great way to make them useful, but it doesn't make them fighters. That may be a good thing or a bad thing in your book, but I happen to like the fighter as written, and always liked PhaedrusXY's solution because it still felt like a fighter.

[killem2]

To Start:

1. Fighters should get endurance and diehard as bonus feats.

2. Bonus Feats should not be from a defined list. It should be all feats, like when you gain 3hd, ect.

3. Should be allowed to gain automatical bonus EWP every other level.

4. At level 2, should become a two-handed weapon/two weapon fighter/sword and board break off level. Depending on what they picked it is changed for the rest of the class.

5. Free to multiclass.

6. Progressively get better at working in armor, reduce penalties, increase dex bonus, and so on.

7. No penalties for size, from fine to collossal. If you are a fighter.

[Shining Wrath]

The ability to contribute in ways other than smacking something with a sword. Giving them casting is a step too far, so I'd say giving fighters 4 skill points per level would be a start.

Good saves in all 3 categories, like Monks. Fighters should be tough in all ways. Also allow Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes, and Great Fortitude as bonus feats.

Take a page from Rangers and have different paths you can choose for fighters at level one or level two, and you get appropriate bonus feats or class abilities every few levels. For example:

The grapple master. Give feats like Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, maybe a class feature that allows the grapple master to go straight to pin in a single round, and to be able to make attacks to a pinned foe that both do damage and greatly impair anything requiring concentration - because you are strangling them, or dribbling their heads on the floor like a basketball, or doing damage *every second* in some other fashion.
The two-weapon fighting master. Give some of the TWF feats as bonuses early on. Provide a class feature allowing full attacks with each hand at level 20.
The ubercharger. Give some of the nice charge feats as bonuses early on. Provide the ability to charge through allies, and at higher levels to change course during a charge.
The Lord of Sword and Board (LSB). Everybody mocks these guys as the weakest option for a fighter (which means, really weak). Let's buff them, shall we? How about a progression for the protection given by a shield? Large shields give +2 to AC at level one, but for a LSB that increases by another 1 every even numbered level, so it's +3 at level 2, and +12 at level 20. And at level 10 they can protect the ally on their shield side (usually left) as well as themselves - so there's a +7 to AC for your ally in that one square. And of course give Shield Bash and the like as bonus feats.

[Zombulian]

Ok... i can't find the search button or something like that in this forum, so i'm creating a new thread about this topic. (i think this topic already exist, but i couldn't find it)
I'll start a campaing as a DM and i want to change a few things. As a player, i think fighters are weak. And i want to improve them a bit, but keep it balanced.

I have a few ideas:

Stupid & sexy Flanders (feels like i'm wearing nothing at all) They're fierce warriors in armor, i think they deserve to reduce armor penalties when climbing, jumping or swiming. I understand barbarians should have more endurance, but fighters should move better using armor & shields.
They should be able to move and run like an stupid & sexy flanders too, without penalties to speed, like dwarves)

(maybe give them a fighter special ability every odd level to reduce armor penalties is one way... another could be simply give the ability to ignore armor penalties at 5th level, for example.


The other thing i was thinking is giving them a bonus to make and resist special attacks as bull rush, trample, grapple etc.
Maybe a "size bonus" every few levels... soy they can have a bonus to those combat situations. What do you think?

Any other ideas you used in your campaign? Maybe roleplaying ideas that could be useful instead of rule changes?

What are you talking about? Fighter is one of the most balanced classes in the game, next to Barbarian and Monk. WotC said it themselves (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20061013a).

[Evard]

I checked the SRD for Epic feats and this seems fairly okay. Most Epic feats that a mid-level Fighter would qualify for aren't that broken. Here is a list of what a fighter with max 21 Con, max 21 Str, max 21 Dex and less than 19 Wis can take:

+1 Natural Armor, the ability to not provoke AoO from archery, 3/dr (if you have at least 21 Con), full attack on charge for the first round, energy resistance 10 to a specific energy type, +1 to all saves, +4 to fort, +4 to ref, +4 to will, +4 to some social skills, +30 speed in non-heavy armor, +30 hp, +2 attack with weapon focus, +4 damage weapon specialization, +1 to a stat, unlimited combat reflexes, double dark vision range, crossbows without reload time, penetrating some damage reduction, beating spellcasters with AoO, +4 Initiative.
I don't think allowing them to take some Epic feats early would unbalance the game. Perhaps you could limit some of the stacking effects, and Epic Toughness would have to go, or need to be nerfed. +30 hp at level 21 might not be too much, but at level 12, it's a lot for a feat. +30 speed might seem like a lot, but it does require the Run feat and 21 Dex, and no heavy armor. I'm not sure if that would unbalance, a pure Dex Fighter could probably not abuse that speed anyway.

I'm not optimizer, though, so I might be missing something.

+30 hp is where fighter bonus feat toughness should be at and even then I would be hesitant to take it.

HP is not that great of a feature when so many things ignore hp all together. The difference in 100 hp and 1000000 when hit by a charm person or idk... grease spell... doesn't matter.

Besides mild optimization dmg builds do hundreds by mid levels.

[Krobar]

What we did was increase the skill points (we went with 5+int), and all skills except disable device and spellcraft are class skills.

As far as feat trees go...

Weapon Specialization feats incorporate the corresponding Weapon Focus feats (for fighters only).

Two Weapon Fighting feats incorporate the corresponding Two Weapon Defense feats, and there are no penalties to attack or damage rolls for fighting with 2 weapons. This also is for fighters only. This makes two weapon fighting actually worth the multiple feats.

Also, we gave fighters access to a limited set of epic feats as of 10th level.

Finally, we gave them all good saves.

[Ylorch]

In addition to extra skills and an expanded skill list which everyone seems to recommend, I filled dead levels with a list of minor abilities or immunities to status conditions to choose from. I also made Dodge, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Focus and Greater Weapon Specialization scale with fighter level to give incentive to stay for more than two levels especially for sword and board, two-weapon fighting and archery builds. Specifics under spoiler if you're interested.

Every odd level after level 1 you may gain one of the following abilities or Immunity to one of the listed conditions: Stand from Prone as a swift action without provoking attacks of opportunity, Mettle (Required Fighter level 7 or higher), reduce ability damage taken by half rounded down, (Required Fighter level 5 or higher), re-roll an initiative check 1/Day (may be taken up to 3 times), Condition Immunity: Confused, dazed, dazzled, exhaustion (requires immunity to fatigue), fatigue, fear (requires immunity to frightened), frightened (requires immunity to shaken), nausea (requires immunity to sickened), shaken, or sickened.

Dodge gives 1/4 Fighter level (rounded down, minimum 1)to AC. Weapon Specialization gives 1/2 Fighter level (rounded down, minimum 2) to damage. Greater Weapon Focus improves Weapon Focus to 1/4 Fighter level (rounded down, minimum 2)to hit. Greater Weapon Specialization improves Weapon Specialization to adding Fighter level as a bonus to damage.

[Flickerdart]

The biggest issue with Fighters getting Epic feats early is probably Infinite Deflection, but you can just spot-ban that one.

[Krobar]

The biggest issue with Fighters getting Epic feats early is probably Infinite Deflection, but you can just spot-ban that one.

There are a few you probably wouldn't want a <20 fighter to have. Hence I mentioned a limited set of epic feats.

[Hat-Trick]

That link to the WotC official dead levels filler has an interesting idea of giving bonuses to checks at the dead levels. If, instead of choosing one of those, simply give them a +1 bonus to anything that's a straight Stat check (excluding initiative I'd say, while it might be fitting, I think a bonus to initiative like that should be more a rogue-like character's shtick). This would include break DCs, CON checks for holding breath or running, the balance checks they mention in the article, probably Knowledge checks, spot/listen checks and Sense Motive maybe? And I would say Intimidate, but that might be a bit much saying how crazy Intimidate can get. Gather Information would be a good one though.

wouldn't be a complete fix, but something to consider.