Best Gestalt Classes

[FreakyCheeseMan]

So, it seems like the forums have a pretty solid understanding (and even consensus) on which base classes and prestige classes are the most powerful: wizard is stronger than sorcerer is stronger than warblade is stronger than fighter is stronger than monk.

However, I'm not sure if the subject is quite as codified for classes in a gestalt (note, still talking about classes, not specific gestalt builds.)

To clarify a few definitions: I'm looking for classes that offer the most to a gestalt build, given any other class; "Archivist" may not be all that great, because while it's powerful, a lot of that power would potentially be redundant alongside a wizard, cleric or erudite.

Obviously, passive abilities will get more value than active abilities, because of the action economy; gestalt characters still only get one action at a time.

With all of this in mind, I submit Binder as the most powerful gestalt class. While the basic class attributes - saves, skill points, BAB and hit die - are nothing to write home about, vestiges seem like the ultimate passive abilities, and they offer something for anything. A few options:

Immunity to cold, electricity and negative energy damage.
Immunity to fire.
Mind Blank
+8 to all knowledge skills
Bardic Knowledge
Re-Roll any attack, save or skill check once per 5 rounds
Heavy armor proficiency + good enchanted armour
Any item crafting feat


On top of that, some of the binder class features don't suck, either - bonuses to initiative, attack or AC, and a permanent mind blank effect.

Anyone have a competing class to offer?

[Partysan]

Generally, I'd agree with Binder. However, for any character with high Int, Factotum might be considered superior. Not only does it offer all skills as class skills and high skill points, it also passively adds IntMod to several checks and lastly gives more actions, which is very powerful indeed. And it has active class features as well, very versatile ones at that, although possibly not as versatile as the Binder's.

[Talakeal]

Honestly I always went with monk. Great saves, decent skills, and lots of nice bonus feats and passive class features.

The monks primary class abilities blow, but their passives are nice when combined with a class who can actually do something to make use of them.

Obviously, however, this is not the most powerful gestalt, but far better than it is as a base class.

[SowZ]

Honestly I always went with monk. Great saves, decent skills, and lots of nice bonus feats and passive class features.

The monks primary class abilities blow, but their passives are nice when combined with a class who can actually do something to make use of them.

Obviously, however, this is not the most powerful gestalt, but far better than it is as a base class.

I prefer Paladin as a martial type for gestalt. Paladin of Freedom+Bard. Paladin+Favored Soul. Paladin+Sorcerer. In gestalt, you don't really need all good saves. Most asters have good Will saves, so a good Fort from Pally is welcome. All you are missing is Reflex. Big deal, right? Especially considering you will have awesome Reflex anyway due to Charisma.

You have the second best HD in the game, full BAB, a special mount, a handful of cool abilities, and a unique spellist to supplement your own. (Not to mention the Visage Spells, allowing your Cha to be boosted much farther than it normally could.

[Glimbur]

The Incarnum classes, particularly Incarnate, are nice for gestalt.

Totemist provides teleportation, flight, natural armor, bonus hp, natural attacks, and some misc utility. 3/4 BAB, at least one good save, tolerable skills.

Incarnate provides floating bonuses to skills, a variety of defenses, some touch attacks, unusual abilities (immunity to compulsions, a free zombie, ability damage resistance, very limited flight at level 1...)

Soulborn provides full BAB, an unusual immunity, and... uh... it's still Soulborn though. Thunderstep Boots are nice.

[NikitaDarkstar]

First of all this really should have been in the D&D 3e/3.5/D20 subforum since gestalt is a 3.5 thing.

Second, I'll say it depends on what you're going for.
Barbarians damage reduction and big hitdice is always welcome for a melee type.

A Fighers many feats can be a blessing for an idea that needs plenty of feats.

But I think my favorite to gestalt is warlocks. I tend to build characters that use light armor (or no armor) anyway, and the at will abilities are a good addition to both the skill-monkeys and the caster classes. And it's a class that basically only needs charisma and that's it so unless you have a very MAD build it won't really strain your stats that much.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

First of all this really should have been in the D&D 3e/3.5/D20 subforum since gestalt is a 3.5 thing.

Second, I'll say it depends on what you're going for.
Barbarians damage reduction and big hitdice is always welcome for a melee type.

A Fighers many feats can be a blessing for an idea that needs plenty of feats.

But I think my favorite to gestalt is warlocks. I tend to build characters that use light armor (or no armor) anyway, and the at will abilities are a good addition to both the skill-monkeys and the caster classes. And it's a class that basically only needs charisma and that's it so unless you have a very MAD build it won't really strain your stats that much.

Yeah, I put it in the wrong forum by accident, and since I can't delete threads anyway... *shrugs*

Fighters get a lot of feats, but their feat selection is quite limited.

That's one thing I forgot to mention about binders - they only need CON and CHA, and they don't really need CHA. So, they derive a lot of benefit from the one stat that everyone already needs.

[Talakeal]

But I think my favorite to gestalt is warlocks. I tend to build characters that use light armor (or no armor) anyway, and the at will abilities are a good addition to both the skill-monkeys and the caster classes. And it's a class that basically only needs charisma and that's it so unless you have a very MAD build it won't really strain your stats that much.

Yeah, the most destructive player I ever had was a Rogue / Warlock. Basically they played a joker bard with infinite endurance who stayed hidden, spammed at wills ad naeuseum, and then could use a wand or scroll of any item in the game to get out of any trouble. Very obnoxious to try and design challenges for, especially without killing the rest of the part.

[SowZ]

First of all this really should have been in the D&D 3e/3.5/D20 subforum since gestalt is a 3.5 thing.

Second, I'll say it depends on what you're going for.
Barbarians damage reduction and big hitdice is always welcome for a melee type.

A Fighers many feats can be a blessing for an idea that needs plenty of feats.

But I think my favorite to gestalt is warlocks. I tend to build characters that use light armor (or no armor) anyway, and the at will abilities are a good addition to both the skill-monkeys and the caster classes. And it's a class that basically only needs charisma and that's it so unless you have a very MAD build it won't really strain your stats that much.

Warlock, another class that goes well with Paladin.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Yeah, the most destructive player I ever had was a Rogue / Warlock. Basically they played a joker bard with infinite endurance who stayed hidden, spammed at wills ad naeuseum, and then could use a wand or scroll of any item in the game to get out of any trouble. Very obnoxious to try and design challenges for, especially without killing the rest of the part.

Ugh, yhea I can imagine that being hard to DM for. Some players don't realize the difference between "annoying" and "creative", it's a fine line to walk, especially when you have basically ALL THE OPTIONS!!! at your fingertips.

Contemplating a Bard/Warlock in the future myself, it I ever find a suitable gestalt game. Not an optimal choice, but I like the idea of it.

[Erik Vale]

Wizard/Psion.

All the gamebreaking of the wizard, copied and put into a blender, then recombined.

[NikitaDarkstar]

Wizard/Psion.

All the gamebreaking of the wizard, copied and put into a blender, then recombined.

But as you said, it's just copied, the combination doesn't add that much versatility, doesn't offer that many new options and neither really buffs the other all that much. I'm not saying it's not a valid combination, but it also doesn't seem that optimal.

That said, this thread is more about classes that are good to combine with any other class, not specific combos. And wizard is good for high int characters, especially those with little to no armor.

[SowZ]

I just couldn't bring myself to settle for less than a d8 HD and going under full BAB would be painful. My preference: d8+ HD. 4+ SP. Full BAB. Good Fort and Will Save. Spellcasting. Next time I play gestalt I'll probably go Paladin/Bard...

[Dusk Eclipse]

But as you said, it's just copied, the combination doesn't add that much versatility, doesn't offer that many new options and neither really buffs the other all that much. I'm not saying it's not a valid combination, but it also doesn't seem that optimal.

That said, this thread is more about classes that are good to combine with any other class, not specific combos. And wizard is good for high int characters, especially those with little to no armor.

Barring genesis abuse for a demiplane with 10:1 rounds ratio, Psions arw the undisputted masters at breaking action economy, how abut extra standard actions at level 3?(Linked sinchronizity) or Time Stop 6 levels earlier?

Psion//Wizard is a very strong combo.

[Big Fau]

In general, every class can be combine with a Psionic manifester class (Psion, PsiWar, Ardent, Psionic Rogue) and come out with a winning combination. Even the Wilder can be utilized efficiently.

However, I'd say the best classes to Gestalt with are Martial Adepts and Meldshapers (sans Soulborn). One gives you amazing front-line capabilities, the other is the absolute king of self-buffing outside of casters. Every class can benefit from a Meldshaper Gestalt (due to the classes being Con-based), and you don't need to invest anything into the Incarnum side of your Gestalt to use it efficiently. While it takes a bit of building to use a Martial Adept, they pretty much optimize themselves and provide nice chasis boosts (a PsiWar or Ardent//Swordsage would be amazingly potent, Factotum//Warblade is excellent, and everything can Gestalt with the Crusader).

A strong second would be Factotum. There's very little it doesn't go with.

[Humble Master]

I always liked Factotum as a Gestalt class. More skills, more skills point plus you can add you Int modier to a lot fo things. Very good for Wizards.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

I'm surprised no one has made a case for Artificer. In some ways, they seem to be the king of passive benefits - there isn't a class in the game that doesn't want more magic items. (Stop lying, monks, you know you do.)

95% of what an Artifice does is done out of combat anyway, so they seem one of the ideals. Only reason I put Binder first is that Binder gets what it gets so much more easily - straight Binder is all that any class needs to benefit from, and it's tough to mess up a class that lets you re-build yourself overnight.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Incarnate and Totemist top my list. I do love using psychic warrior as well, although that is hardly optimal. Their variety of psychic powers makes them good at most things and they also rock a smattering of bonus feats.

[SowZ]

I'm surprised no one has made a case for Artificer. In some ways, they seem to be the king of passive benefits - there isn't a class in the game that doesn't want more magic items. (Stop lying, monks, you know you do.)

95% of what an Artifice does is done out of combat anyway, so they seem one of the ideals. Only reason I put Binder first is that Binder gets what it gets so much more easily - straight Binder is all that any class needs to benefit from, and it's tough to mess up a class that lets you re-build yourself overnight.

I shudder to imagine a character for whom all the abilities of an Artificer only make up half their power... :smalleek:

[Lateral]

In a lot of cases, one cannot beat Factotum simply because of Cunning Surge. With a martial adept, a spellcaster, or really anything that uses standard actions on the other side, that ability becomes 'kill everything on round 1.' Add to that the fact that its other abilities are very nice and add a lot without eating actions, and it becomes a pretty insane passive gestalt class.

That said, though, meldshapers and binders are probably better if you discount Cunning Surge. Of the meldshapers, Incarnate and Totemist are probably about equal- normally, Totemists are stronger, but as a passive side the natural weapon melds aren't that useful so it comes down to more soulmelds vs. totem binds.

(Soulborn? What soulborn?)

[Karnith]

I'm surprised no one has made a case for Artificer.
See, recommending that someone gestalt into artificier is also recommending that the player have to deal with being an artificier - which means spending a lot of time playing Excel: The Spreadsheetening instead of D&D. It's a frighteningly effective class, but is also one of the biggest hassles to play.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Need to learn magic of the Incarnum, but they don't sound half bad.

Still, I look across 20 level of Binder, and with 0 investment and a few vestiges, I get:

+15 Initiative
Mind Blank
Immunity to Fear
Immunity to Negative Levels
Immunity to Negative Energy Damage
Immunity to Cold Damage
Immunity to Electric Damage
Immunity to Fire Damage
SR 32 v. Divine
Reroll a save, attack or skill check once every 5 turns
+5 AC
+5 Reflex Save
+8 to all Knowledge Skills
Detect Thoughts
Detect Undead
Hide from Undead
Paralysing Touch
Speak with Undead
Move Action - no one can attack you for one round. You can't attack them either, but there's no save or SR - could guarantee your escape, if nothing else.

I'm certain some of you can do better, but all of that with 0 customization seems pretty solid to me - literally any binder could pull that off, no feats, no build choices, no items.

[Waker]

My vote is for Incarnate and Totemist. You can throw on a soulmeld and then never bother taking it off, since soulmelds don't automatically unshape. As for the melds themselves, they can make anyone better at their job and shore up weaknesses. Melds can grant skills, feats and a number of class abilities. Lastly, everything about them is based off Con, so so worries about being MAD.
Gestalt is generally better having an active and passive class mixed. These two classes can just equip their melds and keep them on forever.

[eggynack]

I'm tossing another vote towards the factotum. The class is one of the SADdest in the game, with everything keyed off of int. If your other class is int based, a wizard for example, then the passive benefits are crazy bananas. It gets extra actions, balanced out by a general lack of things to do with those actions. If your other class has something to do with those actions, like the casting of tons of arcane spells, then the insanity only grows. Basically, I'm restating the obvious fact that wizard//factotum is neato burrito. Also, the class doesn't have a need for prestige classes, which is a boon if you want the other side to have them. Just as a completely random example, let's say that you have a wizard, with factotum on the other side. If the other side were a cleric, then you'd need to balance out the positive effects of the two class' infinite PrC's. In the mighty wizard factotum combo platter, the factotum half is subservient to the wizard's mighty desire to trade away his piddly non-spell advantages. You also have a crazy amount of skill points, and all of the things to spend them on.

[137beth]

This gives me an idea...

The Tier System For Gestalt Class Combinations
So, there are probably too many classes in the game to actually be a feasible project. Even with just the core base classes, that is 55 combinations.
If we go by every class variant listed in JaronK's post, we have 49 classes (including variants), for 1176 combinations. Of course, the ACFs may become less significant as a result of the gestalting. Ignoring different class variants, we still have 42 base classes (861 combinations), without even counting the few classes not on the list...

This could be a significant community project...

[FreakyCheeseMan]

This gives me an idea...

The Tier System For Gestalt Class Combinations
So, there are probably too many classes in the game to actually be a feasible project. Even with just the core base classes, that is 55 combinations.
If we go by every class variant listed in JaronK's post, we have 49 classes (including variants), for 1176 combinations. Of course, the ACFs may become less significant as a result of the gestalting. Ignoring different class variants, we still have 42 base classes (861 combinations), without even counting the few classes not on the list...

This could be a significant community project...

I imagine some things could be lumped together, without major issue.

By the way, to everyone pushing the Incarnum classes... I'm reading over Magic of Incarnum now (in the process of building a cowardly kobold character who also happens to be a level 30 tristalt) and I feel like I'm missing something - all of the soulmelds seem to conflict with item slots, and none of the ones I've read actually look impressive.

What am I missing?

EDIT: Increasingly certain that I'm missing something - none of the soul melds I'm seeing even seem to measure up to the magic items they don't work with; minor bonuses to attack or damage, a handful of skill buffs...

I'm used to seeing Binder pass out the equivalent of persisted spells or entire class features like they were candy; energy immunity, sneak attack, death attack, permanent displacement, breath attacks, bardic knowledge, mind blank, item creation, psionic abilities, extra senses, freedom of movement, re-rolls, fortification, gaze attacks, powerful spells as supernatural abilities without daily limits...

Could someone give me examples of things that an Incarnum user gets that could compare?

[Waker]

I imagine some things could be lumped together, without major issue.

By the way, to everyone pushing the Incarnum classes... I'm reading over Magic of Incarnum now (in the process of building a cowardly kobold character who also happens to be a level 30 tristalt) and I feel like I'm missing something - all of the soulmelds seem to conflict with item slots, and none of the ones I've read actually look impressive.

What am I missing?

Unless a soulmeld is bound to a chakra point, it doesn't preclude the use of a magic item. Even then, there is a feat to allow the use of an item and chakra-bound soulmeld.
As for the soulmelds, they are always active (except for the use activated powers) which can be modified by investing essentia. Also the incarnum classes automatically know all soulmelds on their list, gaining levels just grants more soulmelds shaped, essentia and chakra points.
The big advantages for the incarnum classes is that they are very item independent. And the ability to shift essentia means they can adjust their powers as th situation warrants.

[eggynack]

I imagine some things could be lumped together, without major issue.


Quite so. The way I figure it,the first step would be cutting down on combinations as much as possible. The best way to do this would be splitting the class list into two columns, based on whether they provide a more active or passive benefit. Once they're split like that, you can judge the benefits they give against members of their own list. There're some outside cases, like the factotum//wizard combo I mentioned earlier, but for the most part synergy isn't the most important concern. The active list would essentially measure what the tier system already measures, and the passive list would place a higher value on traits like saves, BAB, proficiencies, skills, and so forth. If one felt it necessary to construct a list of combinations and their value, then it might be prudent to include only those class pairings that have both the active/passive makeup, and those that are SAD. I don't really see the point in gauging the power of every fighter//monk, and rogue//ranger that comes along. Especially given that gestalt places a higher premium on optimization.

[FreakyCheeseMan]

Unless a soulmeld is bound to a chakra point, it doesn't preclude the use of a magic item. Even then, there is a feat to allow the use of an item and chakra-bound soulmeld.

Huh - all of the ones I saw were listed as working with specific chakra points. Clearly I missed yet more things.


As for the soulmelds, they are always active (except for the use activated powers) which can be modified by investing essentia. Also the incarnum classes automatically know all soulmelds on their list, gaining levels just grants more soulmelds shaped, essentia and chakra points.
The big advantages for the incarnum classes is that they are very item independent. And the ability to shift essentia means they can adjust their powers as th situation warrants.


Vestiges are always active (and cannot be taken away by force - it takes an AMF to even surpress them.) Every binder knows every vestige they're high enough level for, which honestly seems like a more powerful system - it means binders can get *really* powerful abilities as they level, rather than having to be limited to modifications of things that are good at level one. Binder doesn't carry with it any particular item dependency that I can see, except maybe for a Vestige Phylactery, which is so useful it's worth paying for. And, while basic binders can't re-arrange their abilities during the day (only between days) there's a feat that lets them do so (which they get as a bonus feat), and an item that does the same.

Both classes seem to share a fairly similar core mechanic, it just seems like the advantages (http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Consolidated_Binder_Handbook_%283.5e_Guide%29/Vestiges) the Binder gets blow the Incarnum stuff out of the water.

[Waker]

The soulmelds do correspond to certain body slots, but unless bound to that chakra point it doesn't interfere with item use and just grants the basic bonus.
Binders do gain access to stronger vestiges as they level and automatically know all of them, whereas the incarnum classes know every soulmeld on the list at level one. The only thing they lack is access to the chakra points.
Another neat benefit that incarnum offers is that it is extremely friendly for multi-classing and dips. Most of the chakra points can be gained from feats.

I am not disagreeing that Binder is an excellent class by the way. It makes a very effective other half for gestalt.

[thethird]

I would give it to:

Binder (can suit almost all kinds of character, has adaptability and zero stat dependence)
Incarnate (can suit almost all kinds of character, has adaptability and low stat dependence)
Totemist (suits best melee characters, has adaptability and low stat dependence)
Factotum (suits best int focused classes, has adaptability, breaks the action economy and relatively low stat dependence)

Warlock / Dragonfire adept are both good options too, but they normally define more the play stile of the character.

Then there are specific combinations that I think that are particularly suitable or strong. For example I like combining Mystic ranger with Psychic warrior.

I personally want to try someday Artificer // Factotum, it looks to me like a great build for batman.

[HunterOfJello]

I would like to throw my hat in with a suggestion for 2 base classes that are often ignored as passive class options for gestalt.

I think that Cleric and Favored Soul are both great Gestalt classes as passive classes.

The cleric spell list is an amazing prepared spell list for setting up support for a party. Their divinations and backup spells that they can prepare are really amazing.

The favored soul doesn't get a lot of class features on its "Class Features" list, but they are a great passive class due to the fact that they have 3/4 BAB, d8 HD, ALL good saves, and a surprisingly large number of spontaneous spells known.

[Vaz]

An Ardent is about as Bonkers as it can get for Wis based othernclasses. Between Dominant Mantle Shenanigans (Oh hi, Synchronicity), and a reasonably permissive DM on top of its ML based power learning, despite its limited number of powers, you can really increase your power.

A Druid with a Schism'd Surrogate Spellcasting with Linked Syncronicity/Bestow Power shenanigans can have essentially 3 actions a turn.

[Dread_Head]

I'd agree that factotum and binder are very powerful gestalt classes, I'd also like to suggest one that hasn't been mentioned yet namely wildshape ranger.

With good fort and reflex, d8HD 6+int SP and full BAB and wildshape it seems a pretty powerful combination with most other base classes. Heck combine it with a spellcasting class to be a druid with a different spell list and better base stats. If you can take prestiges for it later such as MoMF and warshaper it also becomes that much more powerful especially combined with as full casting class on the other side.

[dspeyer]

I'm fond of warblade as a passive class. It's a great chassis and gets most of the best counters. It's very hard to hurt a warblade who's prepared for defence. And even a defensive warblade can keep a few good strikes around, just in case.

Master of Many Forms is another good passive. Enter as wildshape ranger, of course. There are very few classes that don't have some form they'd rather be in.

[DrunkenMists]

I imagine some things could be lumped together, without major issue.

By the way, to everyone pushing the Incarnum classes... I'm reading over Magic of Incarnum now (in the process of building a cowardly kobold character who also happens to be a level 30 tristalt) and I feel like I'm missing something - all of the soulmelds seem to conflict with item slots, and none of the ones I've read actually look impressive.

What am I missing?

EDIT: Increasingly certain that I'm missing something - none of the soul melds I'm seeing even seem to measure up to the magic items they don't work with; minor bonuses to attack or damage, a handful of skill buffs...

I'm used to seeing Binder pass out the equivalent of persisted spells or entire class features like they were candy; energy immunity, sneak attack, death attack, permanent displacement, breath attacks, bardic knowledge, mind blank, item creation, psionic abilities, extra senses, freedom of movement, re-rolls, fortification, gaze attacks, powerful spells as supernatural abilities without daily limits...

Could someone give me examples of things that an Incarnum user gets that could compare?

The power Incarnaum Offers is Dependant alot on the Campaign.
I a World where magic items are rare, or even...non-existant. Incarnums are pretty powerful; Even in a World with alot of magic items; they are still pretty good; as a smart Incarnum moves his bonus's to where they need to be; rather than stuck with that magic item bonus.
Not to mention there is a feat that allows you to have a chakra bound to a slot and use a magic item still. Even in level 20 start, you rarely see a character fill every magic item body slot with something useful; or at least more useful than a smart incarnaum user can fill it with and poke essentia into.

Sometimes it just lets the character worry about getting the magic items it wants rather than needs. I currently have a nice powerhouse going with an incarnate; and having it has allowed me to boost my weapons, armor and sheild without having to worry about other magic items. even then. Most of the magic items that would make much a difference to my character beyond the stat boost ones; are Wounderous items that don't need to occupy a slot. :smallbiggrin:

It's like any character build; it' depends on what your looking for!.

To me Incarnum allows for alot of Respecability; which makes it worth while for me. The Binder can; Yes. "respec" but they tend to be very stuck in a certain roll for a day at a time; which in a fantasy game, alot can often happen in a day.

[thethird]

Increasingly certain that I'm missing something - none of the soul melds I'm seeing even seem to measure up to the magic items they don't work with; minor bonuses to attack or damage, a handful of skill buffs...

Could someone give me examples of things that an Incarnum user gets that could compare?

Incarnates are defensive powerhouses

Crystal helm gives you ac, force descriptor to attacks (that is nice), bonus to saves

Lifebond vestments are awesome for healing, you eventually only will need to cure yourself and not a lot

Planar ward protects you from a lot of debuffs

Therapeutic mantle reduces the need of healing (to get healed), check again lifebond vestment and rejoice.

Spellward shirt there are no better SR sources (unless you are a spellcaster)

Strongheart vest, **** off ability damage/drain

Vitality belt, +160 hp? At level 20? That's as getting +32 to constitution.

Seriously Incarnates are great tanks. And they can also work as skillmonkeys have a great mobility (they have perfect flight speed with airstep sandals), and add several bonuses when gestalted (such as arcane focus). Still I will say this again, incarnates work best as durable defensive classes with a regular source of damage.

---

Totemist on the other hand are... combat monsters both at range and at melee. Getting more natural attacks than a totemist is hard, and having more volley attacks that a totemist investing in manticore belt is also hard.

So yes incarnum classes are awesome.

[Karnith]

By the way, to everyone pushing the Incarnum classes... I'm reading over Magic of Incarnum now (in the process of building a cowardly kobold character who also happens to be a level 30 tristalt) and I feel like I'm missing something - all of the soulmelds seem to conflict with item slots, and none of the ones I've read actually look impressive.

What am I missing?
In addition to what thethird said, the bonuses provided by soulmelds aren't really minor at all. Incarnate soulmelds in particular seem underwhelming at first glance, but if you actually run the math a lot of the bonuses they get are pretty huge (which is why, despite having d6 HD, poor BAB, and 2+ Int skills, they make pretty good melee combatants and/or skillmonkeys). Thankfully, there's a guide for that (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19870566/Incarnate_by_the_numbers).

Also, why would a tristalted level 30 kobold be cowardly? Is he tristalting commoner/aristocrat/warrior or something?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Incarnates are defensive powerhouses

Crystal helm gives you ac, force descriptor to attacks (that is nice), bonus to saves

Lifebond vestments are awesome for healing, you eventually only will need to cure yourself and not a lot

Planar ward protects you from a lot of debuffs

Therapeutic mantle reduces the need of healing (to get healed), check again lifebond vestment and rejoice.

Spellward shirt there are no better SR sources (unless you are a spellcaster)

Strongheart vest, **** off ability damage/drain

Vitality belt, +160 hp? At level 20? That's as getting +32 to constitution.

Seriously Incarnates are great tanks. And they can also work as skillmonkeys have a great mobility (they have perfect flight speed with airstep sandals), and add several bonuses when gestalted (such as arcane focus). Still I will say this again, incarnates work best as durable defensive classes with a regular source of damage.

---

Totemist on the other hand are... combat monsters both at range and at melee. Getting more natural attacks than a totemist is hard, and having more volley attacks that a totemist investing in manticore belt is also hard.

So yes incarnum classes are awesome.

I don't agree with Totemist being so awesome at range, sure Manticore belt is pretty good for a hit n run type of archer; but it doesn't really compare to the damage potential of a totemist.

[thethird]

Yes, totemist are better at melee than at range, still they can be good at both and switch around.

[Deffers]

Yunno, I thought of something. Could a factotum-warlock gestalt use surge of inspiration over and over to make blastlock tactics somewhere near as powerful as straight glaivelock tactics?

...Of course, surge of inspiration plus a hellfire glaivelock, if you could make that build, would basically be ludicrously uncannybrutal at damage, wouldn't it?

...I wonder if you could get Iaijutsu focus to work on Eldritch Glaive RAW... probably not.

I don't own enough sourcebooks to do anything other than speculate, I'm afraid... but those'd be some quite-effective combat gestalts if so!

[ironwizard]

I'd like to cast my vote as well for the Incarnate. A plethora of abilities that can be used to support another class or style and can be changed daily. A good selection of feats in MoI lets you use your Essentia to support your style. All in all, the Incarnate shines as a chassis to support another class.

The other two MoI classes are good as well, but Incarnate has more essentia and more Soulmelds/Chakras to work with, so you get more mileage in a general sense.

[Sugashane]

I'll throw in a great combo for spellcasters.

Cleric-1/Paladin (freedom/honor/whatever)-4

If you have a high charisma like an 18 that is a plus 4 modifier.

So you have 14 total turn or rebuke undeads, which can go wonderfully with divine metamagic. Combine this with a high charisma face type of character and you can persist some insane spells.

[Karnith]

The other two MoI classes are good as well
By which I hope you mean "totemist is good as well." Because Soulborns are just godawfully bad, and I can't think of a situation in which I'd recommend that anyone actually play one.

[Kazyan]

By which I hope you mean "totemist is good as well." Because Soulborns are just godawfully bad, and I can't think of a situation in which I'd recommend that anyone actually play one.

With my CE Tibbit Soulborn 4/Warshaper 2 build for E6, you could hardly suck at all.

[kestrel404]

I'd just like to point out the Level 19 class feature on Factotum - you can use it 3/day, and it gives you access to any class feature, level 15 or lower, of any other class. I pondered this while I was attempting to create a Gestalt character outside of the Gestalt system.

Basically, you use this class feature to gain access to the following:
Bind Vestige, as binder. As a 20th level Factotum, you can now bind 4 vestiges. This takes just over a minute per vestige (literally 1 minute & 1 round each), so binding 4 of them takes less than 5 minutes. They stick around for 24 hours.

Invocations, as warlock (or Dragonfire Adept). As a 20th level Factotum, you now get any 12 invocations of any level you want. Of course, they only stick around for 10 minutes, but there are quite a few that you can activate once and they last for 24 hours. Grab all of them and use them, then start using 'The Dead Walk' and whatever other permanent/long lasting effects you might like until you run out of time. Pick up the Extend Spell Like Ability feat (also works on your Factotum 'spells', since by default they're SLAs) and you can have those abilities for 2 days instead of 1. If you can get the 3.0 version (which consumes 2 of your unlimited uses instead of 1), you can even do this to ALL of the Invocations you've stolen.

The last use can be left in reserve, to basically allow for ANY contingency you can think of. This is literally better than spellcasting for the purposes of overcoming a challenge.

Oh, and for those who really like to be prepared? By foregoing your buffs for the day, the following are effectively permanent:

Meldshaping, as any meldshaping class & Rapid Meldshaping, as Incarnate - this combo will let you shape 4 soulmelds. Pretty much any 4 at a time. You'll need to dismiss a soulmeld to do it, but just take the 'Shape Soulmeld' feat once, and you can shape that soulmeld and dismiss it to shape a different one of your choice, basically turning the 'shape soulmeld' feat into 'shape all the soulmelds', limiting you only to one soulmeld per body slot. Binding soulmelds is quite difficult, of course, but not impossible. Getting essentia is likewise difficult but not impossible.

Protection from Spirits, as Spirit Shaman - A 10 minute ritual that offers protection from evil permanently (no means of dispelling or dismissing it or even suppressing it beyond an AMF). Of course, the protection isn't actually against evil - it's against Fey, Incorporeal Undead, and a bunch of other things. Arguably more useful.

I'm sure there are others, but I can't bother looking for them right now.

Basically, Factotum is the ultimate Gestalt at high levels because it lets you Gestalt without Gestalting, or in actual Gestalt games, lets you Tristalt or more.

Oh yes, plus all the other things Factotum does.

[thethird]

That won't work...

Cunning brilliance only works once per ability. You are limited to extraordinary abilities. And you can only gain the benefits/drawbacks for a minute.

So, even if you could use soul binding (which you can't since it is supernatural) you would only be able to use it for a minute (not being able to bind anything) and even if you were (rapid binding) you would lose the benefits in a minute.

[kestrel404]

Ugh, I always forget about the 'ex abilities only' thing. Most of the abilities I named are not listed as SU, but both Soul Bind (binder) and Rapid meldshaping (incarnate) are SU abilities specifically.

Also, that 'once per day' line can be interpreted in a couple of ways, so it may not prevent you from getting all the benefits of the Warlock invocations you can still steal.

[Fouredged Sword]

Consider that factotum is one of the few classes that is ANTI-active. It actualy grants more standard actions to use as you wish.

I had a character build based around that concept

Wizard x / Swiftblade 10 / abjurant Champion x // Factotum 20

Nasty nasty gish that takes the cake with 3-4 standard actions during the first round of combat.

[JaronK]

It's tough to beat the Factotum as a Gestalt class, because if your other class does anything impressive with standard actions (such as, it's a caster), the Factotum just makes you better at that.

Binder's definitely got a lot of potential, as does Artificer, though the latter uses up too many feats for my taste in Gestalt.

And of course Druid's amazing too when combined with anything that appreciates Wild Shape.

Basically, if you're Int based go Factotum, if you're Wis based go Druid, and for anything else consider Binder or Artificer.

JaronK