Whats a city to do without rats?

[Zero grim]

During my strange moods I have stumbled upon a quest line where my players will investigate the utter lack of rats in a large city, I have tried to think what problems a city in the D&D world would have without rats of any kind.

would anyone know any knock on effect from having a rat free city?

[Xerxus]

Less disease?

[Gildedragon]

lack of rats = good
as to what problems might rise from lack of rats: ghost rat swarms

it might be suspicious that rats vanish; not unwelcome but some urban druid types might feel something is amiss.
carnivorous oozes roiling in the sewers and undercity. pets may be disappearing, children and beggars might be next

an evil urban druid/enchanter is amassing an army of rats, rat kings, and undead rats to purify the city of humans or pigeons

rats have become awakened and are marshaling their forces

rats have a preternatural sense for danger. City construction projects have unearthed something old and dangerous. Vermin has abandoned the city in expectation of the doom to come.

Tibbit mafia is sacrificing rats to summon an eldritch abomination

[limejuicepowder]

The catwomen is in town...duh

[turbo164]

Anything that eats rats would have to change their diet a bit. Cats, Dogs, Hobos, and Sewer Alligators would be less numerous (if the rats have been gone a while) or be going after Commoners and food vendors more often (if the rats disappeared recently).

The trash and corpses normally eaten by rats would be available to other animals. Cockroaches come to mind.

Rat-on-a-stick vendors would go out of business, or secretly switch to other meats.

And as mentioned, less rat-and-flea transmitted diseases.

[Daer]

while most people certainly would be happy for loss of rats there certainly would be some problems. Like what ever took the rats.. what is it doing after rats is gone? somethign ate them? well whats next thing it will start eat?

also sudden shortage on meat for snack sellers on market. Of course they try explain it is just troubles with caravans or something like that and do not admit it having something to do with rats disappearence.

[SowZ]

dun Dun DUN!!!

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm2_gallery/88268_620_85.jpg&imgrefurl=http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19623834/MOONRATS%26post_num%3D1&h=580&w=400&sz=261&tbnid=feHBx4F8uQ2FVM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=62&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dd%2526d%2Bmoon%2Brats%26tbm%3Disch%26 tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=d%26d+moon+rats&usg=__qHtJyxUtUgq4Yxb4lf_HVdTF_PY=&docid=rQW8Kbanip4sFM&sa=X&ei=jopgUaf3F8iw2AXagoGgDg&ved=0CE8Q9QEwAw&dur=386

Rats! (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm2_gallery/88268_620_85.jpg&imgrefurl=http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19623834/MOONRATS%26post_num%3D1&h=580&w=400&sz=261&tbnid=feHBx4F8uQ2FVM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=62&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dd%2526d%2Bmoon%2Brats%26tbm%3Disch%26 tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=d%26d+moon+rats&usg=__qHtJyxUtUgq4Yxb4lf_HVdTF_PY=&docid=rQW8Kbanip4sFM&sa=X&ei=jopgUaf3F8iw2AXagoGgDg&ved=0CE8Q9QEwAw&dur=386)

[Jack_Simth]

During my strange moods I have stumbled upon a quest line where my players will investigate the utter lack of rats in a large city, I have tried to think what problems a city in the D&D world would have without rats of any kind.

would anyone know any knock on effect from having a rat free city?
Yeah... as many others have noted, other than an increase in other types of vermin (and potentially plague, from dead bodies sticking around longer, but this is unlikely and easily dealt with if the city is even slightly organized), an increased aggressiveness on stuff that normally eats rats (if it's recent), or a decrease in the stuff that normally eats rats (if it's been that way for a while), the interesting bits will generally come from why the rats are gone, not the fact that they are.

Are they all gone because something worse ate them? If so, then you'll have to deal with the "something worse" now that the food supply is gone.
Are they all gone because they're being used as a resource for nefarious ends? Then you'll need to deal with the nefarious ends.
Are they all gone because something horrible is coming and they can sense it? Then you'll need to deal with the something horrible coming.

[ArcturusV]

Pretty much seems it all got touched on. But one of the Missing effects might be that the Rats are forming a vermin Hive Mind. As such basically every rat in the city will be banding together in one small spot, so they will have seemed to disappear.

However, if it's all the rats in a city disappearing to form a hivemind? You're probably talking about numbers that result basically in an organism which you'd have a Hivemind of potentially 3,000+.

Which would be an insanely powerful thing. Possibly even Main Villain level status. You'd have something with... if I remember the math roughly, something like 60ish Int, 48 feats, 70ish Charisma, and casting spells as a 20th level (If not epic) Sorcerer...

[KillingAScarab]

Are they all gone because they're being used as a resource for nefarious ends? Then you'll need to deal with the nefarious ends.There's a party of evil adventurers pulling bag-of-rats tricks!

[ArcturusV]

Oh, and adding, due to the silliness of how the RAW is written, the 3000+ hivemind of rats with Epic level casting would still only be CR 1/2...

[KillingAScarab]

Oh, and adding, due to the silliness of how the RAW is written, the 3000+ hivemind of rats with Epic level casting would still only be CR 1/2...That quantity is equivalent to 10+ rat swarms (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/swarm.htm#ratSwarm), but every rat swarm already has a CR of 2.

[ArcturusV]

Heh. Well, book of vile darkness has it's rules for making Hiveminds, not "swarms" necessarily. And for every 50 rats beyond the first 150 (Which starts it at 7 int), it gets: +1 Int, +1 Skill Point, +1 Feat, and +1 Charisma.

If it gets over 18 Charisma, it gains Sorcerer spellcasting, 1 level of sorcerer for every point above 17.

They actually do use Rats in their example, with something like a hivemind of 1000 rats having 6th level sorcerer casting.

And note that the end of the Hivemind section lists CR, being based on an individual creature of that type. I think Rats are less than 1/2. And it's "If the CR for an individual would be less than 1/2, the hivemind's CR is 1/2.".

Which is silly when you're talking about a 6th level sorcerer even. Much less a potentially epic level sorcerer.

[KillingAScarab]

And note that the end of the Hivemind section lists CR, being based on an individual creature of that type. I think Rats are less than 1/2. And it's "If the CR for an individual would be less than 1/2, the hivemind's CR is 1/2.".

Which is silly when you're talking about a 6th level sorcerer even. Much less a potentially epic level sorcerer.A single rat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rat.htm) is CR 1/8th, but their organization entry lists a "plague" as 10-100. I'm not very familiar with the CR rules, but I think it' something like every time you double the number of creatures you add one to the CR of that encounter. No idea how that works with lower CRs than one, but I guess it means a DM who is actually patient enough to track and roll for a room full of normal rats being able to beat up your epic level rats because they can get more actions? I'm not familiar with how to best simulate rats fighting super rats.

OK, back on topic before we really go down a rat hole.

[Jack_Simth]

A single rat (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rat.htm) is CR 1/8th, but their organization entry lists a "plague" as 10-100. I'm not very familiar with the CR rules, but I think it' something like every time you double the number of creatures you add one to the CR of that encounter. No idea how that works with lower CRs than one, but I guess it means a DM who is actually patient enough to track and roll for a room full of normal rats being able to beat up your epic level rats because they can get more actions? I'm not familiar with how to best simulate rats fighting super rats.
Encounter level, not CR, and it's +2 per doubling, not +1. Also: fractional CR's are essentially negative numbers. So two CR 1/8ths make for a EL 1/6th. Four make for a 1/4th, eight make for a 1/2, sixteen make for a 2, 32 make a 4, 64 make an 8, 128 make a 10, 256 make a 12, 512 make a 14, 1024 make a 16, 2048 make a EL 18 encounter, 4096 make an EL 20 encounter. However, you get XP based on 4096 individual CR 1/8th opponents - so DM fiat awards only at level 20.

Going by what ArcturusV mentioned on the casting... a rat (Base Charisma 2) getting to 18 Charisma would take... 150+16*50=950 rats. Every 50 rats above that grants one level of Sorcerer casting (and more Charisma). So 4096 rats would grant... looks like 62 levels of Sorcerer casting.

[Coidzor]

Kobolds and goblins move in to fill in the ecological niche if you don't have ratmen. Otherwise ratmen move in to fill the ecological niche. Then they have to reintroduce rats to get rid of the kobolds and/or goblins.

[Zero grim]

well thanks for the feedback, it seems that there is no real problem to losing rats in a city (besides losing the local epic level sorcerer obviously).

[Tanklin]

there is a story in my country, about THE SUPER-RAT !!!

(in one of the latest james bond movies one of the bad guys tell this story)

well, one time a big industrial pig farm had a really big problem with rats. The ytried everything: traps, poison, and other things and nothing happened. One day, a simple farm guy tell the boss he has the solution.

He captured 4 rats, and put them in a hole, without water of food. The rats couldn't leave the hole, so they ate each other, until only one survived. Then the guy released the super rat, and that rat exterminated all the other rats in the pig farm.


And well, without rats, you could have more bugs and vermin giving problems to the people without rats.

[JusticeZero]

While rats are useful as scavengers, they are not the only thing that serves that role in the urban ecosystem. Pigeons and pigs do that too, among others.

[kabreras]

Peoples dont like rats, thats a fact, but rats have their usefullness in a city.
They are quite efficent scravengers and if medieval cities had so many rats its because there was food for them. (garbage thrown on the streets and such)

Without rats to clean the mess a bit you can be sure that some plague will come soon or later in the city.

But rats canot diseapear like that in a large city and something that ate all the rats in quite hard to beleve considering how fast they reproduce.

If all the rats diseapear from the city, the common peoples that dont see the repercution will be happy, but the folks in charge of the city will certainly see the repercutions and do searchs to know where they are and what happened fast before troubles and diseases come knocking at the door.

[Gildedragon]

Except, of course, that rats are disease vectors. And far more active ones than garbage. They carry fleas that carry the plague, they bite, they can be rabid among other things.

If garbage is piling up, which it already did, the city might have to figure something out, but undoubtedly rat loss is good for all but those who consume rats.

[JusticeZero]

The scavenging aspect can be substituted for with pigs, and some cities have done just that. Rats serve a purpose, but it isn't a unique one, and they can be pesky even while they are being useful. The next question would be "What might move into a rat-shaped hole in the ecosystem?"

[Andreaz]

That's actually a study in ecology, which is rather...complex.
For example, less rats means less vectors for disease...but it also means matter takes much longer to deteriorate, so dead stuff will rot longer. Which may bring more disease. The insect population would likely grow in the process.

[Phelix-Mu]

The scavenging aspect can be substituted for with pigs, and some cities have done just that. Rats serve a purpose, but it isn't a unique one, and they can be pesky even while they are being useful. The next question would be "What might move into a rat-shaped hole in the ecosystem?"

This. There are several creatures that stand to win, big time. First is mice. Rats muscle out smaller critters for food sources, though their size does open more options to them. That and they are very good swimmers.

Part of the issue is the climate. Is it tropical? Sub-tropical? Temperate?

In a fairly warm climate, there are probably lizards that would fill in some of the scavenging holes.

In a more temperate area with close access to forests (like around the borders of the city), raccoons and possums and the like may be able to take advantage of the larger number of food sources.

But, I think most realistically, there is going to be some unusual D&D critter out there.

1.) Cranium rats. Go all "Secret of NIMH" with the campaign.

2.) Rylkar (MM5). I have been dying for a reason to use these rat-like creatures in a campaign. Have there also been a string of unexplained arsons in the rat-less city. Oh, maybe there should be, maybe there should be.:smallbiggrin::smallwink:

3.) Draconic critters. Sewers are actually great places for dragon wyrmlings to live for the first few years of life, particularly black or bronze (I think those are the types), particularly if unusual circumstances leave them with no choice (unusual, but far from impossible); draconomicon has drakes and a number of other variations on the theme. Just a handful can easily hunt and consume the majority of a medium-sized city's rat population within a few years.

[Tvtyrant]

Jermlaine infestation. The stupid little things run around sticking things with pins and setting up tiny traps. Eventually they attempt to eradicate the local population by poisoning the water.

[Asmodai]

Pretty much seems it all got touched on. But one of the Missing effects might be that the Rats are forming a vermin Hive Mind. As such basically every rat in the city will be banding together in one small spot, so they will have seemed to disappear.

However, if it's all the rats in a city disappearing to form a hivemind? You're probably talking about numbers that result basically in an organism which you'd have a Hivemind of potentially 3,000+.

Which would be an insanely powerful thing. Possibly even Main Villain level status. You'd have something with... if I remember the math roughly, something like 60ish Int, 48 feats, 70ish Charisma, and casting spells as a 20th level (If not epic) Sorcerer...

Cranium Rats.... Cranium Rats... Crainum Rats...

[Urpriest]

If there aren't any rats, what will low-level adventurers slay to level up? :smallwink:

[Fable Wright]

If there aren't any rats, what will low-level adventurers slay to level up? :smallwink:
There's always the option of going Sweeney Todd...

[Scow2]

However, you get XP based on 4096 individual CR 1/8th opponents - so DM fiat awards only at level 20.Since when the heck has XP been awarded based on individual creatures killed instead of the CR of a challenge overcome? CR 20 gives CR 20 rewards, regardless of how many/few creatures there are, or how strong/weak they happen to be. It just happens that most creatures stop increasing challenge rating for doubling after the first two or three doublings.

But on topic: A loss of all rats, unless there's a bigger threat, is almost a unilaterally good thing. Other far less vile creatures can take their place.

The biggest problem would be, as pointed out above, a lack of chances for low-level adventurers to gain XP and start making names for themselves.

[Duke of Urrel]

I'm surprised that nobody has yet mentioned Pipes of the Sewers, or the possibility that the municipal government won't be able to pay the fee demanded by the legendary Pied Piper, with the likely consequence that the city's children will soon be lured away.

[Urpriest]

Since when the heck has XP been awarded based on individual creatures killed instead of the CR of a challenge overcome? CR 20 gives CR 20 rewards, regardless of how many/few creatures there are, or how strong/weak they happen to be. It just happens that most creatures stop increasing challenge rating for doubling after the first two or three doublings.

But on topic: A loss of all rats, unless there's a bigger threat, is almost a unilaterally good thing. Other far less vile creatures can take their place.

The biggest problem would be, as pointed out above, a lack of chances for low-level adventurers to gain XP and start making names for themselves.

XP is by default per creature. It's only for the challenge if the challenge is somehow different.

[Coidzor]

I'm surprised that nobody has yet mentioned Pipes of the Sewers, or the possibility that the municipal government won't be able to pay the fee demanded by the legendary Pied Piper, with the likely consequence that the city's children will soon be lured away.

I've always been sad that the Pied Piper can't really be modeled in D&D. Not even a D&D'D up version.

[Skysaber]

I see a lot of mention about rats breaking down garbage. That's not all they break down, they break down everything. They dig holes in houses, break open containers, devour bedding/curtains/clothes for their nests, and will eat children and people if given half the chance.

Basically, they transform everything they can get to into garbage. To say nothing of the fact that they'd far rather break into your food stores and leave you to die of starvation come winter, or chew off the soles of your boots, than just stick to garbage.

In fact, some pacific island countries have to take specific anti-rat measures as they fall to sleep or the rats will literally eat the soles off the bottoms of your feet as you sleep at night.

I had a biology teacher who specialized in rats. Let's just say that having a city without rats is comparable to having a spouse without VD, the benefits are so numerous and powerful that any supposed drawbacks (suffering is good for character growth) are laughable. I'd go into specifics, but they are really, Really gross and liable to run into all sorts of filter problems.

Let's just say that rats make Lovecraft look like an amateur in the horror department and leave it at that.

And rats really did the things that make Lovecraft's imagined stories look tame - and given half the chance would gladly do them again.

No, the first thing I do in any RPG where I am given any control of a settlement whatsoever is buy a set of Pipes of the Sewers and make sure to clean out every possible rat under the sound of my pipes. They are a BIG problem! To the point where your people easily have twice as much food if the rats aren't doing their standard of 'breaking in and eating it' so common in medieval (and modern! - my teacher had pictures) settings.

I've also been a professional pest controller, and you'd be amazed at the amount of effort involved in keeping rats from destroying literally everything, even in a modern setting where we have all of the advantages. I pity the medieval peasants who couldn't coat everything important in steel. And none of the stores you shop at will ever admit the problems they've had, as it's bad for business.

So what is a city to do without rats? The same as a body would do without cancer - be happier, healthier and more prosperous. They serve literally no function you couldn't happily do without.

[Ardantis]

Yes, but it's weird.

A city without any rats is suspicious. The shopkeepers may not admit it, or they may even be celebrating it, but somewhere someone has to realize that that's STRANGE and maybe not potentially GOOD.

Dark, paranoid reasons for no rats:

- A necromancer has been exhuming bodies at the graveyard, the rats are all there pigging out.

- A dark ritual deep below the city is mysteriously drawing the rats deeper into the caves beneath the city.

- The Pied Piper is taking the rats away so that he can blackmail the city against their return

[Skysaber]

Yes, but it's weird.

Weird? Let's put it this way, perhaps the primary difference between a medieval peasant living in squalor and filth, dressed in rags and eating what you would likely count as garbage, and the comfortable modern life you enjoy could be laid at the feet of modern people having better rat control.

If rats had the same access to your house and life as they did to theirs, your clothes would all be ruined with holes and stained, what few of them you owned because they disintegrate pretty fast when rats are around. Your bedding would be a pile of filth that would get tossed out of a homeless shelter. There would be no food in the house whatsoever, simply getting enough to eat would become an immediate struggle for survival. The cables on your computers and all other electronics would be cut, and basically you would have nothing that was not counted as garbage.

Oh, and you would be covered in bites, because you've got to sleep sometime - and now you know why it was once pretty much universal that people kept dogs, LOTS of dogs, because it is rare for a cat to do much about the rat problem. Rats in numbers are more liable to eat the cat than the other way around.

Life without rats is simply healthier, happier and more prosperous, because you can own stuff that doesn't immediately become garbage.

Can you dream up a suspicious cause for it? Sure. But then, you can do that for absolutely anything. There might be a horrible scheme behind you winning the lottery.

But I would prefer a life without rats to winning the lottery. Seriously.

[Evard]

Except, of course, that rats are disease vectors. And far more active ones than garbage. They carry fleas that carry the plague, they bite, they can be rabid among other things.

If garbage is piling up, which it already did, the city might have to figure something out, but undoubtedly rat loss is good for all but those who consume rats.

Fireball

Or


Portable Hole, Fireball, Roll up portable hole to smoke doesn't go anywhere, drop portable hole in a bag of holding...

[Asmodai]

... rats are horribad...

I'd actually love to hear more in detail. I've known some stuff like the food, disease, and say assaulting small children in their beds, but it'd loe to hear the rest of this.

[Scow2]

XP is by default per creature. It's only for the challenge if the challenge is somehow different.In what system? Certainly not D&D 3.0 or 3.5, where XP is parceled out based on the encounter level of a challenge, which is the same as the Challenge Rating modified by additional challenges.

A CR 3 Trap offers the same experience as a CR 3 Monster, and is also the same as an EL 3 band of Orcs or Kobolds.

[LTwerewolf]

If rats just suddenly disappear, there's a reason they did. This can be a lot of things, but any of them can mean a very bad thing for the city. The rats being gone may not be bad, but what caused it can be.

[Skysaber]

I'd actually love to hear more in detail. I've known some stuff like the food, disease, and say assaulting small children in their beds, but it'd loe to hear the rest of this.

Dude, I've already had a night of nightmares and traumatic flashbacks just from what I've already said. I'm not going to dredge up more memories.

[tadkins]

rats have become awakened and are marshaling their forces



Dear gods, we're all doomed!

[XmonkTad]

The rats have been kidnapped by an evil cleric/druid who is awakening them and then sacrificing them.

The city is now flooded with magic items that are cursed or evil.

Cats are turning on commoners, and are winning.

I don't know what the cause of the rat exodus is, but the city could be defending itself in other ways. Like the thieves guild disappears as well. Or a corrupt politician confesses.

[Skysaber]

Dear gods, we're all doomed!

I know when you say that you mean it as a joke, but humans are very fortunate in that most creatures on this planet fear us. Rat's don't. Feral rats will crawl up your arm to get the food in your hand, or eat your fingers, that's just as well for them.

Most of the really evocative horror stories mankind has told itself are about something that hunts and eats us: vampires, werewolves, etc. But rats really do. It's not just the young they'll devour, but anything helpless: the young, elderly, sick, they'll devour pregnant mothers during delivery when she can't fight them off, drunks passed out in the corners, anyone that can't deliver a hard enough smack to kill rats as they assault him. And that you can deliver such a smack doesn't offer any safety, it just means you can free yourself after a few nips, rather than serving as the full course meal.

And that's just the beginning. It's, you know what? I've had enough nights shivering in my blankets, clutching my sheets in terror over something I KNOW is out there. I'm just going to drop this subject.

There are diseases that scare doctors. There are pests that scare exterminators. There are certain things on this world that the more you know about them and what they've really done and could do, the less safe you sleep at night.

I'm going to walk away from this thread now.

[Gavinfoxx]

Celebrate?

[Steward]

I've always found rats disgusting, but I've never actually been afraid of them today. Thanks a lot, Skysaber.

[Zero grim]

Well thanks for the input guys, seems that losing rats in any sort of setting is always going to be a blessing, that still works as a form of plot hook.

BTW the reason the city ran out of rats is because of a holy lawful intelligent magical item that commands its wielder to kill rats, and I think now it has a lot more reason to define rats as the thing that deserves smiting above all others.

[tadkins]

I know when you say that you mean it as a joke, but humans are very fortunate in that most creatures on this planet fear us. Rat's don't. Feral rats will crawl up your arm to get the food in your hand, or eat your fingers, that's just as well for them.



To be honest, I wasn't joking. I think if rats across the world became awakened and organized themselves with the intent of bringing human civilization down, they'd have a pretty good shot against us. Even if they would lose in the end, they'd still do a hell of a lot of damage before it happened.

I agree with most of what you said. Rats are always a real and possible threat. Games like D&D provide all sorts of creepy and imaginative ways for us to get hurt and killed, but the fact that what you've posted can and has actually happened is just a chilling thought.

That said, you inspired me to do a little extra reading, and I came across this. I suppose not everyone thinks the same way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fancy_rat

[gorfnab]

Owls (http://theinfosphere.org/Owls)
http://theinfosphere.org/images/d/df/Owls.jpg

[GnomeGninjas]

Since when the heck has XP been awarded based on individual creatures killed instead of the CR of a challenge overcome? CR 20 gives CR 20 rewards, regardless of how many/few creatures there are, or how strong/weak they happen to be. It just happens that most creatures stop increasing challenge rating for doubling after the first two or three doublings.

But on topic: A loss of all rats, unless there's a bigger threat, is almost a unilaterally good thing. Other far less vile creatures can take their place.

The biggest problem would be, as pointed out above, a lack of chances for low-level adventurers to gain XP and start making names for themselves.

Normally you can substitute use encounter level in place of challenge rating for each creature in order to calculate experience, it will usually turn out the same. This is not always the case however.

In general you can treat a group of creatures as a single creature who's CR equals the groups EL. [...] However, creatures whose CR is far below the party's level often provide no challenge at all so don't substitute hordes of low-CR creatures for a single high-CR creature.


2.For each moster defeated determine the single monster's challenge rating.
3. Use Table 2-6: Experience Point Awards (Single Monster) to cross-refenence one character's level with the challenge rating for each defeated monster to find the base XP award.

[Carth]

Perhaps ratmen have stealthily taken up residence in the sewers, and are protecting their weaker brethren by preventing them from leaving their enclave. At least, until their assault on the surface begins.