Optimizing 1 handed fencer?

[Ramshack]

I'm DMing an e6 Campaign and one of my players is pretty set on using 1 handed fencing style, either with a rapier or long sword. The other players are running rather optimized characters. Spiked Chain tripping shennanigans and an uber charger with leap attack shock trooper combat brute and all that jazz. Is there a way to bring this style of combat within reach of the other characters. don't want him to feel useless but I don't want to tell him he shoudn't play what he wants.

[Daftendirekt]

Why not just make a rapier-wielding rogue, optimizing his sneak attack? Pick up craven (http://dndtools.eu/feats/champions-of-ruin--27/craven--484/), maybe dip into Swordsage to pick up Island of Blades, making flanking pretty much a constant and giving him easy sneak attack. Toss a weapon of deadly precision his way to make it even better. If he really wants to up his damage, he can use a shortsword that's merely fluffed as a rapier and pick up Shadow Blade as well.

So, basically, rogue 5/swordsage 1 (with the swordsage level wherever he deems most worthy), optimizing sneak attack.

[Srasy]

be a thri kreen and use 2 hands on a great sword and call it a rapier

[StreamOfTheSky]

What books and sources are available?

[Ramshack]

Should have mentioned it but we already have someone playing a rogue sneak attack character and he doesnt want to step on the toes of the other player

[limejuicepowder]

Sneak attack thug fighter 3 swashbuckler 3 with daring outlaw gives (with a slightly favorable reading) +6 bab, 4+int skills, int to damage, 4d6 sneak attack, and weapon finesse as a bonus feat.

Other recommended feats are combat expertise, einhander, deadly defense, and good ranks in tumble. When fighting with a -2 penalty to attack, he would gain +5 AC and +1d6 damage.

Unfortunately this build doesn't scale well after that. Fortunately it doesn't have to :)

[Ramshack]

What books and sources are available?

I have just about every book but ToB and Dragon Magazine

[HunterOfJello]

Duskblade. Put some nice heavy spells into his rapier strikes and then they'll actually be worth something.


Duskblade is the best way (perhaps the only viable way) to do a good bit of damage with a singe sword in a single hand.

[Daftendirekt]

Sneak attack thug fighter 3 swashbuckler 3 with daring outlaw gives (with a slightly favorable reading) +6 bab, 4+int skills, int to damage, 4d6 sneak attack, and weapon finesse as a bonus feat.

Other recommended feats are combat expertise, einhander, deadly defense, and good ranks in tumble. When fighting with a -2 penalty to attack, he would gain +5 AC and +1d6 damage.

Unfortunately this build doesn't scale well after that. Fortunately it doesn't have to :)

Tack craven on for 6 more damage with SA as well.

[StreamOfTheSky]

It's hard to think of anything that actually benefits one handed fighting specifically, other than Einhander. Pathfinder has the Crane Style/Wing/Riposte tree that gives you a big defensive bonus for doing so, you might consider allowing those feats and stripping out the Improved Unarmed Strike requirement (they were intended for Monks). Nothing about the feats actually uses unarmed attacks. Crane Riposte will need lower requirements or some special E6 feat to qualify for with its BAB pre-req.

Crane Style (Combat, Style)
Your unarmed fighting techniques blend poise with graceful defense.

Prerequisites: Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +2 or monk level 1st.

Benefit: You take only a –2 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. While using this style and fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you gain an additional +1 dodge bonus to your Armor Class.

Crane Wing (Combat)
You move with the speed and finesse of an avian hunter, your sweeping blocks and graceful motions allowing you to deflect melee attacks with ease.

Prerequisites: Crane Style, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +5 or monk level 5th.

Benefit: Once per round while using Crane Style, when you have at least one hand free and are either fighting defensively or using the total defense action, you can deflect one melee weapon attack that would normally hit you. You expend no action to deflect the attack, but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed. An attack so deflected deals no damage to you.

Crane Riposte (Combat)
You use your defensive abilities to make overpowering counterattacks.

Prerequisites: Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +8 or monk level 7th.

Benefit: You take only a –1 penalty on attack rolls for fighting defensively. Whenever you use Crane Wing to deflect an opponent's attack, you can make an attack of opportunity against that opponent after the attack is deflected.

[Ramshack]

Sneak attack thug fighter 3 swashbuckler 3 with daring outlaw gives (with a slightly favorable reading) +6 bab, 4+int skills, int to damage, 4d6 sneak attack, and weapon finesse as a bonus feat.

Other recommended feats are combat expertise, einhander, deadly defense, and good ranks in tumble. When fighting with a -2 penalty to attack, he would gain +5 AC and +1d6 damage.

Unfortunately this build doesn't scale well after that. Fortunately it doesn't have to :)

He seems to be considering this build along with the craven feat that was mentioned below. Any other ideas on how to optimize this further or any other good ideas in general?

He was also considering the duskblade, blade singer route, can you elaborate on how to make that work?

[limejuicepowder]

He seems to be considering this build along with the craven feat that was mentioned below. Any other ideas on how to optimize this further or any other good ideas in general?

He was also considering the duskblade, blade singer route, can you elaborate on how to make that work?

That's not optimized enough? :smalltongue: What are the other people playing? As I wrote it out, he could easily have 25 AC, and do 6d6+int+str+6 per attack. Decent skills too, since int is better than str for him. Sounds pretty baller to me.

For strategies, equipment, and other goodies check out complete scoundrel. Some of the movement-based skill trick in particular would probably be helpful.

I'm not really familiar with bladesinger, so I can't comment on that one.

Another option though is factotum. They would make a decent fencing, finesse-type fighter as well. Much stronger skill focus and less power than the thug fighter daring outlaw though.

[juicycaboose]

4
He was also considering the duskblade, blade singer route, can you elaborate on how to make that work?

straight duskblade, take knowledge devotion for bonuses to hit/damage based on a knowledge check, arcane strike (at 9th) for even more extra to hit/damage thru sacrificing spell slots. shocking grasp/true strike/dimension hop/vampiric touch are staple spells

edit: oops! didn't realise it was e6, pretty much just ignore arcane strike and vampiric touch

[HunterOfJello]

He was also considering the duskblade, blade singer route, can you elaborate on how to make that work?

Bladesinger is not a very good prestige class. It costs too many feats and then doesn't give 10/10 spellcasting compared to taking levels in pure Duskblade.

You can find out lots of information about Duskblades in Dictum Mortumm's Duskblade Handbook (http://dictummortuum.blogspot.com/2011/08/duskblade-handbook.html).

Overall, if you go into the Duskblade class, then you'll want to take at least 13 levels in it. That way you can get the Arcane channeling (full attack) ability which will allow you to cast a single spell through your sword and then attack multiple opponents with that spell. You can leave the class earlier than that, but make sure it's worth it.

[limejuicepowder]

straight duskblade, take knowledge devotion for bonuses to hit/damage based on a knowledge check, arcane strike (at 9th) for even more extra to hit/damage thru sacrificing spell slots. shocking grasp/true strike/dimension hop/vampiric touch are staple spells


Bladesinger is not a very good prestige class. It costs too many feats and then doesn't give 10/10 spellcasting compared to taking levels in pure Duskblade.

You can find out lots of information about Duskblades in Dictum Mortumm's Duskblade Handbook.

Overall, if you go into the Duskblade class, then you'll want to take at least 13 levels in it. That way you can get the Arcane channeling (full attack) ability which will allow you to cast a single spell through your sword and then attack multiple opponents with that spell. You can leave the class earlier than that, but make sure it's worth it.

E6. Higher levels are a moot point.

[Daftendirekt]

That's not optimized enough? :smalltongue: What are the other people playing? As I wrote it out, he could easily have 25 AC, and do 6d6+int+str+6 per attack. Decent skills too, since int is better than str for him. Sounds pretty baller to me.

For strategies, equipment, and other goodies check out complete scoundrel. Some of the movement-based skill trick in particular would probably be helpful.

I'm not really familiar with bladesinger, so I can't comment on that one.

Another option though is factotum. They would make a decent fencing, finesse-type fighter as well. Much stronger skill focus and less power than the thug fighter daring outlaw though.

Factotum's optimal style is quickrazor/iaijutsu focus though, which doesn't quite fit the fencing theme.

[HunterOfJello]

E6. Higher levels are a moot point.

that makes the CW version of Bladesinger even more worthless since all it would give him is a +1 dodge AC bonus. (Bladesong style is limited by class level.)

[Karnith]

that makes the CW version of Bladesinger even more worthless since all it would give him is a +1 dodge AC bonus. (Bladesong style is limited by class level.)
And even then he will only benefit if he's using light armor, which would lower his AC enough from using a medium armor that it wouldn't really be worth it. And though it won't be so bad once he hits the level 6 cap and starts getting feats, he'll basically be burning his feats in the lead-up to Bladesinger.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Sneak attack thug fighter 3 swashbuckler 3 with daring outlaw gives (with a slightly favorable reading) +6 bab, 4+int skills, int to damage, 4d6 sneak attack, and weapon finesse as a bonus feat.

Other recommended feats are combat expertise, einhander, deadly defense, and good ranks in tumble. When fighting with a -2 penalty to attack, he would gain +5 AC and +1d6 damage.

Unfortunately this build doesn't scale well after that. Fortunately it doesn't have to :)

You would have 6 total levels, so only 3d6 sneak attack...

I don't really like SA or Thug Fighter at all, but I guess for E6 it will have to do, as it is basically the only way to get the all important Staggering Strike (http://dndtools.eu/feats/complete-adventurer--54/staggering-strike--2753/) feat. And yeah, that build should get Craven.

I would not recommend Expertise. Strict RAW it doesn't work with Einhander. Then again...Einhander looks pretty awful.

[limejuicepowder]

You would have 6 total levels, so only 3d6 sneak attack...

This is what I was referring to when I said "slightly favorable reading." 3 levels of sneak attack fighter gives +2d6. The daring outlaw feat allows swashbuckler levels to stack with rogue levels to determine sneak attack, and 3 + 0 = 3 effective rogue levels for +2d6 sneak attack. Total of +4d6.



I would not recommend Expertise. Strict RAW it doesn't work with Einhander. Then again...Einhander looks pretty awful.

What DM would be cruel enough to not allow that interpretation? Not many I hope, though I concede that RAW wouldn't allow it. And yes, einhander is pretty weak, though decent for this build. The extra AC (assuming a decent DM) and the extra way to generate sneak attacks is solid.

[Gnome Alone]

Duskblade3/Swashbuckler3 gets STR + INT to damage & 3d6 of channeled Shocking Grasp 4 or 5x/day. Probably less often than Sneak Attack but easier to do.

Duskblade6 gets 5d6 damage 6-7x/day, but he won'get to write "Swashbuckler" on the character sheet.

[Metahuman1]

Factotum 1/ Swordsage or Warblade or Crusader 2/ Duskblade 3.

Or

Factotum 2/ Swordsage or Warlbade or Crusader 1/ Duskblade 3.

Take Able learner and Craven at first level. If you can have flaws, Nymph's Kiss and Faerie Mysteries Initiate if possible, if not, grab adaptive style and Combat Panache. You'll want those feats anyway as you progress. Once you have them, Improved Initiative is nice, Knowledge Devotion is amazing, and Font of Inspiration is a must up to your total Int Mod.

Grab that magical location that grants once a day turning + a couple of Nightsticks + Travel devotion for extra mobility if you took the first one ( Or just a couple of Nightsticks + Travel devotion for the second one.) If you take the first build and use Swordsage, Kung Fu Genius is also highly recommended.

Make him an affiliation that gives the Marshal classes Motivate Intelligence Aura as a benefit of membership using the PHB II rules.


Your basic Tactic is the swift action move up/away as needed, and when your close enough, use your move action to make a bluff check (Boosted by Int mod from your aura and at times your Factotum level along with max ranks + Cha mod + masterwork tool + whatever else you can get.) Juice up your AC, use Cunning Surge to boost your Saves and Cunning Surge + Knowledge Devotion to boost your attack rolls and Damage rolls, and use Maneuvers to further improve you attacks. From there, at 6th lvl, you can also channel spells to make those attacks hit even harder.

[Pickford]

I'm DMing an e6 Campaign and one of my players is pretty set on using 1 handed fencing style, either with a rapier or long sword. The other players are running rather optimized characters. Spiked Chain tripping shennanigans and an uber charger with leap attack shock trooper combat brute and all that jazz. Is there a way to bring this style of combat within reach of the other characters. don't want him to feel useless but I don't want to tell him he shoudn't play what he wants.

I noticed most suggestions seem to have 6 levels already...but isn't that basically what the character will top out at?

Fighter vs Swashbuckler for one-handed fighting depends on your stats, Fighter can more easily just buff str/con. The swashbuckler has class reasons to take a lower str for higher dex and int.

Also, to 6th level the fighter has 4 bonus feats which is roughly equivalent of the 4 class features of the swashbuckler.

Feats to consider, some of these are just thematically appropriate (depending on how many of these you want, fighter will likely be the better option):
Combat Expertise (PHB)
Improved Disarm (PHB)
Improved Feint (PHB)
Dodge (PHB)
Quick Draw (PHB)
Combat Reflexes (PHB)
Evasive Reflexes (TOB)
Deadly Defense (CS)
Defensive Strike (CW)
Karmic Strike (CW)
Flick of the Wrist (CW)
Melee Evasion (PHBII)
Elusive Target (CW)
Lunging Strike (PHBII)
Einhander (PHBII)


Now, this all is depending on how much you want to mimic fencing, but I'd pick the following:

Human: Dodge (PHB)
1st: Combat Expertise (PHB)
Fighter1: Improved Disarm (PHB)/Improved Feint (PHB)
Fighter2: Deadly Defense (CS)
3rd: Karmic Strike (CW)
Fighter4: Defensive Strike (CW)
6th: Lunging Strike (PHBII) - BAB +6
Fighter6: Einhander (PHBII) - Tumble 6 ranks; BAB +6

Given that your character will almost never have multiple attacks, you actually lose nothing by taking improved feint.


I would not recommend Expertise. Strict RAW it doesn't work with Einhander. Then again...Einhander looks pretty awful.

Where are you getting that they don't function together? Fighting defensively is the same as an attack or full attack action (per pg. 140 and 143 of the PHB, respectively)...and dodge bonuses stack. (per pg. 136, PHB)

[ksbsnowowl]

Granted, this won't work well for e6, but I've got some Dervish NPC's coming up in my game soon that take advantage of the fact that Einhander works well with the bonus to fighting defensively that Dervishes get (elaborate parry?)

He takes a -4 to attacks for fighting defensively, and gets a +9 to AC. He can stack Combat Expertise on top of that if he feels he needs to, which he'll normally do if he enters Robilar's Gambit. He has Deft Opportunist, so that plus Combat Expertise pretty much cancel out the "to hit" bonus the foes gain from Robilar's, and Deft Opportunist cancels out the penalty he takes from combat expertise. Not a bad set-up.

[Eldest]

I noticed most suggestions seem to have 6 levels already...but isn't that basically what the character will top out at?

Fighter vs Swashbuckler for one-handed fighting depends on your stats, Fighter can more easily just buff str/con. The swashbuckler has class reasons to take a lower str for higher dex and int.

Also, to 6th level the fighter has 4 bonus feats which is roughly equivalent of the 4 class features of the swashbuckler.

Feats to consider, some of these are just thematically appropriate (depending on how many of these you want, fighter will likely be the better option):
Combat Expertise (PHB)
Improved Disarm (PHB)
Improved Feint (PHB)
Dodge (PHB)
Quick Draw (PHB)
Combat Reflexes (PHB)
Evasive Reflexes (TOB)
Deadly Defense (CS)
Defensive Strike (CW)
Karmic Strike (CW)
Flick of the Wrist (CW)
Melee Evasion (PHBII)
Elusive Target (CW)
Lunging Strike (PHBII)
Einhander (PHBII)


Now, this all is depending on how much you want to mimic fencing, but I'd pick the following:

Human: Dodge (PHB)
1st: Combat Expertise (PHB)
Fighter1: Improved Disarm (PHB)/Improved Feint (PHB)
Fighter2: Deadly Defense (CS)
3rd: Karmic Strike (CW)
Fighter4: Defensive Strike (CW)
6th: Lunging Strike (PHBII) - BAB +6
Fighter6: Einhander (PHBII) - Tumble 6 ranks; BAB +6

Given that your character will almost never have multiple attacks, you actually lose nothing by taking improved feint.

Pickford, just so you know, in E6, once you hit level 6, you stop gaining levels and start gaining feats, one every 5000 xp. So while the list of feats is great, fighter actually is pretty much the worst class in E6, since their one shtick (moar feats) is coopted by the game structure.
I would second Duskblade.

[Vaz]

Stay away from Bladesinger. It is horrendous. My Bladesinger entry in the IC (have a look in there for ideas) evolved into an Ubercharger, but between Swasbuckler, Wizard, Monk, and Warblade, it was able to get some very decent power in combat.

Replace Warblade 4/Bladesinger 10 with Duskblade 13/X1 and you'll be fine.

Seriously, Carmendine or Kung Fu Genius Monk 2/Duskblade does whatever Bladesinger does, and does it better.

[Azernak0]

Well, there are two ways to get great damage in DnD has a melee user: Power Attack and Bonus Damage dice. Power Attack is not really an option as one handed weapons and Power Attack go together about as well as turds and parfait. So bonus dice it is.

Dragonfire Inspiration from Dragon Magic replaces the +X/+X hit/damage from Bardic Music and gives +Xd6 instead. With Inspiration Boost spell (Spell Compendium), Badge of Valor (MIC) and the feat Song of the Heart (Eberrron Campaign Setting), you get to +4d6. You also end up giving it to everyone so as long as you are singing, everyone is getting a huge bonus. With a Rapier, it is 1d8+4d6 which is not too shabby damage as long as you are singing. Being a Bard, you also have access to some nifty spells like Glitterdust, Grease, and Charm. If you use a slashing weapon, Snowflake Wardance from Frostburn lets you add your Charisma to attack for up to 9 rounds for a use of your Bardic Music. Would be better if you had Tome of Battle though to add in levels of Warblade. Punishing Stance + Rapier + DFI would be 1d8+5d6 with 5/6 BAB.

I'll also say that Duskblades are pretty damn good. You'll have between 6-8 level 1 spells to throw out a Shocking Grasp. It also has a pretty decent nova with Shocking Grasp + once per day Quickened Cast Scorching Ray/Seeking Ray to do 9d6 in a round with just Touch Attacks. Nice for taking out guys that need to die quickly.

[Man on Fire]

Maybe Pathfinder Magus would work? All for it you have here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus), I made some good DEX-based Maguses, with weapon finesse.
Alternatively, I would consider going paladin of Freedom 2/Bard/Swasbuckler with high emphasis on DEX, INT and CHA - it gives you spells and int to damage, allows doing inspire courage and grants cha to saves.

[Daftendirekt]

Maybe Pathfinder Magus would work? All for it you have here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus), I made some good DEX-based Maguses, with weapon finesse.
Alternatively, I would consider going paladin of Freedom 2/Bard/Swasbuckler with high emphasis on DEX, INT and CHA - it gives you spells and int to damage, allows doing inspire courage and grants cha to saves.

Well, Duskblade has already been suggested multiple times, and Magus is just the PF Duskblade.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Note: I am reading as OP not using ToB because he doesn't have it, not becaus he doesn't want to.

Anyway, even if you don't have ToB, Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) and the maneuver cards are up legally for free in the Wizard's Site.

A Diamond Mind focused warblade could be very useful and quite competitive, you could give him as a capstone feat access to a single 4th level maneuver (for a fencer I would suggest Ruby Nightmare Blade).

[nedz]

There are 21 Bladesinger builds in the most recent Iron Chef here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=274122).
Now obviously you don't want to pick Bladesinger, and it probably wouldn't fit into E6 anyway, but you might get some interesting ideas since BS is a 1 handed fencer gish PrC and so the various builds all prep for that style.

[thethird]

Bard 4 / Warblade 2 with snowflake wardance?

[Abemad]

Fighter may be useful, IF capstone feats are available, which allows fighters to select feats that require a base attack bonus of 8, some may be worth it...

Besides, with hit-and-run fighter from DotU you could make a decent medium armored swashbuckler.

[Pickford]

Pickford, just so you know, in E6, once you hit level 6, you stop gaining levels and start gaining feats, one every 5000 xp. So while the list of feats is great, fighter actually is pretty much the worst class in E6, since their one shtick (moar feats) is coopted by the game structure.
I would second Duskblade.

Ah, yes that does seem to defeat the purpose of the Fighter entirely.

Well, logically one would want to just pick up the best class features possible in 6 levels as anything specific to one-handed fighting is available in feat form...

Maybe Hexblade 3/Duskblade 3 (for mettle)