At-will ranged touch attacks, and AoO clarifications

[ben-zayb]

1. One of the main advantage that manifesters have over spellcasters is the absence of somatic and verbal components. But what if the power used requires touch or ranged touch attacks? Logic dictates that a manifester must expend more than sheer mental efforts, which means Schism can't manifest such powers. Am I reading it correctly?

2. Ranged touch attacks provoke AoO, but what if the targets are willing? Does that eliminate the need for an attack roll, and thus eliminate the AoO provocation as well?

[KillianHawkeye]

Strictly speaking, rules-wise, you don't need a physical motion to aim a spell or psionic power (even though that's what we generally imagine happening).

Being a willing target does not change the mechanics of something like a ray spell. You still need to make an attack roll, and it still provokes an attack of opportunity.

[ben-zayb]

Being a willing target does not change the mechanics of something like a ray spell. You still need to make an attack roll, and it still provokes an attack of opportunity.

My contention lies in this wording:

Touch Spells in Combat

Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

Emphasis mine. The statement suggests that you don't have to succeed on an attack roll to affect friendlies. However, it could be interpreted as:

You still make an attack roll, but it affects the target regardless of hit or miss.
You don't make an attack roll, and the spell simply affects the target.

[Medic!]

The AoO is provoked by casting or using a spell-like ability, not making an attack roll.

[TuggyNE]

My contention lies in this wording:

That section only applies to spells with a range of Touch. Ranged touch attacks do not qualify.

[ben-zayb]

The AoO is provoked by casting or using a spell-like ability, not making an attack roll.
Actually, that's beside the point. We could perfectly assume that the spell was cast defensively, but the ranged attack roll's AoO provocation would still be the topic. Actually, we could go as far as assuming any Supernatural Ability that can mimic a Ray spell (maybe a Binder or Dweomercheater?), and argue whether it provokes AoO or not when used in the context that I addressed.


That section only applies to spells with a range of Touch. Ranged touch attacks do not qualify.

Perhaps I should quote the entire topic:

Touch Spells in Combat

Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll. Oh hello there, Part-that-I-quoted-earlier! I see that you belong to the Touch Spells in Combat section, which incidentally is the direct superset of the Touch Attacks section. So could we further get an explanation as to what Touch Attacks are?

Touch Attacks

Touching an opponent with a touch spell is considered to be an armed attack and therefore does not provoke attacks of opportunity. However, the act of casting a spell does provoke an attack of opportunity. Touch attacks come in two types: melee touch attacks and ranged touch attacks. You can score critical hits with either type of attack. Your opponent’s AC against a touch attack does not include any armor bonus, shield bonus, or natural armor bonus. His size modifier, Dexterity modifier, and deflection bonus (if any) all apply normally.

Holding the Charge

If you don’t discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the discharge of the spell (hold the charge) indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round. You can touch one friend as a standard action or up to six friends as a full-round action. If you touch anything or anyone while holding a charge, even unintentionally, the spell discharges. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates. Alternatively, you may make a normal unarmed attack (or an attack with a natural weapon) while holding a charge. In this case, you aren’t considered armed and you provoke attacks of opportunity as normal for the attack. (If your unarmed attack or natural weapon attack doesn’t provoke attacks of opportunity, neither does this attack.) If the attack hits, you deal normal damage for your unarmed attack or natural weapon and the spell discharges. If the attack misses, you are still holding the charge.

[TuggyNE]

Perhaps I should quote the entire topic:

The first sentence of that first paragraph is what I was referring to:
Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject, either in the same round or any time later. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) the target. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.

The sections after that, while still undeniably discussing touch attacks in general, are not discussing only spells with a listed Range of Touch. There's no particular reason to assume (from the quoted sections, at least) that you can ever auto-succeed at a ranged touch spell, even one that targets an ally (for example, enervation against an undead ally). Without that specificity, there's just no argument to go on.

Also, it's quite clear from the mention of being able to move between casting and touching that the context is melee touch only (touch range, in other words); there's hardly ever any reason you would even want to cast, move, and then fire a ray or other ranged touch, rather than simply moving, casting, and firing in the usual order.

[Psyren]

The XPH leaves this as somewhat of a gray area. Psionics Unleashed does address it in Pathfinder though:


Purely Mental Action: An action which can be taken without physical movement, such as casting a spell without somatic or verbal components. All psionic powers and psi-like abilities are purely mental actions to manifest unless specified otherwise, although subsequent actions (such as making a melee touch attack) may not be. A character may take purely mental actions when paralyzed, pinned, or otherwise physically restrained (although a concentration check is required to manifest powers while grappled, pinned, or entangled), but not when stunned, dazed, unconscious, or otherwise mentally incapacitated.

This seems the most sensible ruling to make on the subject to me.

[ben-zayb]

The first sentence of that first paragraph is what I was referring to:

The sections after that, while still undeniably discussing touch attacks in general, are not discussing only spells with a listed Range of Touch.
Now that you mention it, Range should be treated as a proper keyword. Hmm, that made more sense! Though the way the topic was present is weird, what with the Touch attacks in general the one being in the subset of melee touch attacks (spells with Range: Touch). :smallwink:


The XPH leaves this as somewhat of a gray area. Psionics Unleashed does address it in Pathfinder though:

This seems the most sensible ruling to make on the subject to me.
Implying that Schism can still manifest ranged touch powers, still-silent ranged touch spells, and supernatural ability ranged touch attacks? Sounds good enough for what I had in mind.

[Psyren]

Indeed, RTAs merely require direction rather than motion. For instance, in the XPH pg. 102, this artwork is given for the Energy Push power, which fires a ray:

https://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/xph_gallery/33551.jpg