SPOILER: Start of Darkness! Question inside

[kabraxis]

Hello everyone!

I was tempted to write this on the D&D 3.5 forum instead of the OOTS, but since the context of my question is related to SoD I decided to post here.

So anyways, Xykon imprisoned both Dorukan's and Lirian's souls onto the black gem, right? Now, I'm not very knowledgeable at all in rules and what not, so... what happens to their souls while they're in there? Are they conscious at all?

Because to be honest what I imagine is that they're both counscious, but trapped inside the gem - which wouldn't make the punishment THAT bad since they'd at least have each other, right? But I assume that's not how it works because Xykon wouldn't be so "nice". So what happens with their souls in there?

Thanks for the answers and sorry for possible english mistakes.

[oppyu]

Hello everyone!

I was tempted to write this on the D&D 3.5 forum instead of the OOTS, but since the context of my question is related to SoD I decided to post here.

So anyways, Xykon imprisoned both Dorukan's and Lirian's souls onto the black gem, right? Now, I'm not very knowledgeable at all in rules and what not, so... what happens to their souls while they're in there? Are they conscious at all?

Because to be honest what I imagine is that they're both counscious, but trapped inside the gem - which wouldn't make the punishment THAT bad since they'd at least have each other, right? But I assume that's not how it works because Xykon wouldn't be so "nice". So what happens with their souls in there?

Thanks for the answers and sorry for possible english mistakes.
My first guess would be that Xykon has difficulty grasping the concept of 'love', or 'enjoying someone's company'.

Although it's also entirely possible that he wants the two lovers together so he can have them watch each other lose their minds over time.

[Lvl45DM!]

The Rules doesn't cover things like that. They are absolutely unable to affect the world outside the gem. They can't break the gem themselves. Thats all that matters to the rules.

[kabraxis]

The Rules doesn't cover things like that. They are absolutely unable to affect the world outside the gem. They can't break the gem themselves. Thats all that matters to the rules.

So it's a completely setting / DM / fluff - related thing? No rules at all for that?

Oh well, I really wanted to know what happens with them there, but I guess I won't then.

Thanks for the answer

[Codyage]

I think they just sort of sit inside of it. Xykon said when he was going to have Liran's body destroyed, she would watch from the gem. So chances are they can see what is going on through the gem. However, if the gem fell in the rift like some people theorize...who knows.

[Lkctgo]

He probably used a modified version of Trap the Soul.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/trapTheSoul.html

So the soul is trapped indefinitely, and cannot affect the world in any way unless the gem is broken.

In SoD, we see that they are conscious of the world, but can only talk to each other. Xykon might find it amusing that he managed to trap both their souls for eternity. But I think that as long as they are together, they will negate any craziness that may have resulted from long imprisonment.

[ChristianSt]

Only Rich can us tell for sure what's Dorukan's/Lirian's "Punishment/Life/Soul Trap" does exactly to them.

But from what I get from SoD I kind of agree with you. Lirian even says: "Not a prison anymore.", so for Lirian it is quite some upgrade (and Dorukan might probably be ok with it at the beginning, too).
And I don't think Xykon wanted to be nice with them. He thought probably that this is a somewhat cool/cruel/funny thing to do (and maybe doesn't even know exactly how this will work, too).
But until we see them again, I don't think we can say for sure how their relationship turns out (and being prisoned with someone for around a year or so could really change their dynamic [and I can imagine that this type of prison is even harder than real prison, because I think they might probably be awake 24/7, so having absolutely zero change to dodge one another]).

[KillianHawkeye]

Well............. they're trapped together, alone, with nothing they can do about escaping. They'll probably get tired of having sex eventually. That's when things will start getting weird, I'd guess.

[dps]

Well............. they're trapped together, alone, with nothing they can do about escaping. They'll probably get tired of having sex eventually. That's when things will start getting weird, I'd guess.

Would they actually be able to have sex while trapped in there? Who knows? But if they can, if they have any interest in trying out any really weird, kinky stuff that might be outright dangerous with a living body, they can safely go for it now.

OK, this discussion just took a weird turn.

[oppyu]

Would they actually be able to have sex while trapped in there? Who knows? But if they can, if they have any interest in trying out any really weird, kinky stuff that might be outright dangerous with a living body, they can safely go for it now.

OK, this discussion just took a weird turn.
Next topic for discussion in this supposedly family-friendly forum; whether or not characters can cause lasting injury to each other during kinky, gravity-less sex in a soul gem!

I vote yes.

[King of Nowhere]

My guess is that Xykon is thinking in the long run. When people are compelled into short spaces, they start getting on each other's nerves. Even if they are close, there's only so much they can take before they can't stand the other person anymore.
So, Lirian and dorukan will be happy for a while, but with time they will start getting angry at each other, and eventually they will hate each other. Xykon is not going to just kill them, he's going to destroy their very love. IT may take years, decades, even centuries, but it's eventually going to happen.
Plus, having another person to talk to will help them stay sane. If they become mad, they will no longer suffer so much. Instead they are going to spend eternity sane and trapped with a person they hate, while remembering that they used to love.
That pretty scary ****.

EDIT: on the other hand, it seems pretty much overthought for xykon, so I may be ascribing him deeper motivations than he really had.

[F.Harr]

That is an interesting discussion. I can add, though, that, as souls, they have no internal way of noting the passage of time. I don't know how that will effect how fast they get tired of one another.

[Amphiox]

Well, in the story itself, they are most definitely conscious in the gem.

[AngryHobbit]

My 2 cents on the topic, based on absolutely nothing: souls are trapped in the gem, if it is destroyed, they go to the afterlife, since there are no bodies to return to. Anyway, I guess we won't see any of them any more.

[Slayer Lord]

Probably the simplest explanation for why he's doing it at all is that he just doesn't want anyone trying to raise them.

On top of being funny to him, it's just good tactical sense to keep someone who stands a chance at killing you from coming back. He knew Lirian had a lot of followers and that he and Redcloak might have missed one, and he had no idea what Dorukan had in his dungeon at the time. And Dorukan made it pretty clear that he had been trying to raise Lirian, and Xykon had to have realized that if he hadn't done it in the first place he would have had an epic level wizard AND an epic level druid waiting for him. Better to keep every major enemy in lockdown than risk an Order of the Scribble reunion.

[kabraxis]

Probably the simplest explanation for why he's doing it at all is that he just doesn't want anyone trying to raise them.

On top of being funny to him, it's just good tactical sense to keep someone who stands a chance at killing you from coming back. He knew Lirian had a lot of followers and that he and Redcloak might have missed one, and he had no idea what Dorukan had in his dungeon at the time. And Dorukan made it pretty clear that he had been trying to raise Lirian, and Xykon had to have realized that if he hadn't done it in the first place he would have had an epic level wizard AND an epic level druid waiting for him. Better to keep every major enemy in lockdown than risk an Order of the Scribble reunion.

Yeah, but what I meant was more of a "why keep both of them in the SAME soul gem" instead of separate ones.

Great answers from a lot of people, thanks everyone.

Really liked King of Nowere's theory, makes it quite evil-er if that's what he really intended to do

[factotum]

Yeah, but what I meant was more of a "why keep both of them in the SAME soul gem" instead of separate ones.

Maybe he didn't have another gem to hand? A gem used for soul bind has to be a black sapphire of value at least 1000gp per hit dice of the soul you're binding, and both Lirian and Dorukan were epic; gems like that are probably not easy to find!

[kabraxis]

Maybe he didn't have another gem to hand? A gem used for soul bind has to be a black sapphire of value at least 1000gp per hit dice of the soul you're binding, and both Lirian and Dorukan were epic; gems like that are probably not easy to find!

I didn't know that. Makes sense too!

[Byzantine2]

Most likely the simple truth is Xykon never thought of it. The idea of love doesn't seem like something he is able to grasp very well. If anything he thought they would simply drive each other deeper into despair as they realized the other's fate.

[SowZ]

Maybe he didn't have another gem to hand? A gem used for soul bind has to be a black sapphire of value at least 1000gp per hit dice of the soul you're binding, and both Lirian and Dorukan were epic; gems like that are probably not easy to find!

Spending over 20,000 GP, not to mention tracking it down in a non-magic mart setting, wouldn't be worth the extra evulz when they have better things to spend their time doing. (ie; The Plan.)

[raphfrk]

He probably used a modified version of Trap the Soul.

Was it explicitly Soul Bind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm)?

[SaintRidley]

Was it explicitly Soul Bind (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/soulBind.htm)?

Yes, it was.

[Kish]

Yes, he said Soul Bind each time. There is no reason to spin theories about modified versions of different spells (or 404 errors, as the case may be).

[factotum]

Yes, he said Soul Bind each time.

It's also one of the items on the list of Xykon's spells O-Chul showed in strip #670.

[chorpler]

The souls were able to move closer and hug each other in Start of Darkness, so I would assume they can at least move around and talk and touch each other. And a soul bound soul doesn't get consumed like a soul trapped by a demilich does, right?

Hmmm ... I had always assumed that Lirian and Dorukan were still being carried around in Xykon's pocket, but while re-reading Start of Darkness last night, it occurred to me that the sigil above Dorukan's Gate destroyed Xykon's original body completely, and (presumably) his robes and stuff too, at the end of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools. Certainly Redcloak doesn't seem to be carrying anything but the phylactery when they escape... so does that mean that it would have destroyed the gemstone in his pocket too? And thus, finally freed Lirian and Dorukan to go to the afterlife? Is that how the spirit of Soon knew that Xykon's phylactery was Redcloak's holy symbol?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hmmm ... I had always assumed that Lirian and Dorukan were still being carried around in Xykon's pocket, but while re-reading Start of Darkness last night, it occurred to me that the sigil above Dorukan's Gate destroyed Xykon's original body completely, and (presumably) his robes and stuff too, at the end of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools.

Xykon still has Dorukan's headgear later, when he casts Cloister on goblinotopia, so he didn't loose all his stuff. My headcanon is that he was only wearing a small part of his magic item collection since he was prepared for a confrontation with a band of roving heroes, and the rest of his stuff was in a bag behind the throne, near the escape tunnel, in case things went south and RC needed to get out in a hurry.

GW

[SaintRidley]

The souls were able to move closer and hug each other in Start of Darkness, so I would assume they can at least move around and talk and touch each other. And a soul bound soul doesn't get consumed like a soul trapped by a demilich does, right?



You're right. A soul bound by Soul Bind is not destroyed. Neither, under normal circumstances, is a soul trapped by Trap the Soul. Souls trapped by a Demilich (which has its ability based on Trap the Soul) are destroyed, but it's a special property of Demiliches and not the spell the ability is based on.




Hmmm ... I had always assumed that Lirian and Dorukan were still being carried around in Xykon's pocket, but while re-reading Start of Darkness last night, it occurred to me that the sigil above Dorukan's Gate destroyed Xykon's original body completely, and (presumably) his robes and stuff too, at the end of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools. Certainly Redcloak doesn't seem to be carrying anything but the phylactery when they escape... so does that mean that it would have destroyed the gemstone in his pocket too? And thus, finally freed Lirian and Dorukan to go to the afterlife? Is that how the spirit of Soon knew that Xykon's phylactery was Redcloak's holy symbol?


Xykon still has the Cloister headband, so until we have definite confirmation that the gem was destroyed, we have to assume he still has it.

[Leirus]

Oh. When I read the book it was absolutely clear to me that Rich was actually throwing a boon to Dorukan and Lyrian. Because Xykon does not understand the nature of love, he thought he was punishing them.

But think about it, if you could choose between being trapped for the foreseeable future while the love of your life is killed, or being trapped together, what would you choose? I bet Lyrian was relieved when Xykon trapped Dorukan instead of killing him. And both are pretty cerebral people ( a mage and a druid) so I can see them not having that rough a time (they always can retire to meditate).

Then again, I imagine them as tiny figures living in a miniature crystal house, so I may be wrong.

[weeping eagle]

LIRI:
What is it, my pet?
(Pause.)
Time for love?

DORU:
Were you asleep?

LIRI:
Oh no!

DORU:
Kiss me.

LIRI:
We can't.

DORU:
Try.
(Their heads strain towards each other, fail to meet, fall apart again.)

LIRI:
Why this farce, day after day?

With apologies to Mr. Beckett :-)

[dps]

The souls were able to move closer and hug each other in Start of Darkness, so I would assume they can at least move around and talk and touch each other. And a soul bound soul doesn't get consumed like a soul trapped by a demilich does, right?

Hmmm ... I had always assumed that Lirian and Dorukan were still being carried around in Xykon's pocket, but while re-reading Start of Darkness last night, it occurred to me that the sigil above Dorukan's Gate destroyed Xykon's original body completely, and (presumably) his robes and stuff too, at the end of Dungeon Crawlin' Fools. Certainly Redcloak doesn't seem to be carrying anything but the phylactery when they escape... so does that mean that it would have destroyed the gemstone in his pocket too? And thus, finally freed Lirian and Dorukan to go to the afterlife? Is that how the spirit of Soon knew that Xykon's phylactery was Redcloak's holy symbol?

There's been discussion of this in the Class and Level Geekery Thread. Basically, it's been pointed out that we know for a fact that Xykon still has some of his possessions, like the cloister headband, so it's not unreasonable to assume that he has most or all of them. How he still has them being a bit of a problem.

[Leirus]

There's been discussion of this in the Class and Level Geekery Thread. Basically, it's been pointed out that we know for a fact that Xykon still has some of his possessions, like the cloister headband, so it's not unreasonable to assume that he has most or all of them. How he still has them being a bit of a problem.

But the body was not destroyed. I mean, it exploded, but you could see body parts flying around, so it was not desintegrated. Maybe Redcloak gathered what he could in the confussion?

[dps]

But the body was not destroyed. I mean, it exploded, but you could see body parts flying around, so it was not desintegrated. Maybe Redcloak gathered what he could in the confussion?

Yeah, that's the general consensus.

There are a few items for which we know what happened. For example, Roy took the crown, and Xykon took it back from him on the zombie dragon. For most of them, we don't know where they are, or who (if anyone) possesses them.

[chorpler]

Yeah, darn it, I'd forgotten about how the cloister headband clearly survived and was still in his possession, so the jewel might well have been salvaged by Redcloak and now be in his new pocket. But now there's uncertainty, I guess, whereas before I was always just assuming that he was still carrying them around in his pocket.

We know for sure that the crown was picked up by Roy, and there was a Ring of Wizardry that was "pried off of Xykon's charred fingerbone" (panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html)), but ... I think that's all we know about for sure?

[Leirus]

Yeah, darn it, I'd forgotten about how the cloister headband clearly survived and was still in his possession, so the jewel might well have been salvaged by Redcloak and now be in his new pocket. But now there's uncertainty, I guess, whereas before I was always just assuming that he was still carrying them around in his pocket.

We know for sure that the crown was picked up by Roy, and there was a Ring of Wizardry that was "pried off of Xykon's charred fingerbone" (panel 4 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0130.html)), but ... I think that's all we know about for sure?

I am going to go ahead and guess that such a plot relevant object could not get lost. Lyrian and Dorukan were the ones creating the doors in the first place, and they may be needed again to put them in place when this is all over.

Then again, "this all" could end in the inner world, so who knows.

[Olinser]

I am going to go ahead and guess that such a plot relevant object could not get lost. Lyrian and Dorukan were the ones creating the doors in the first place, and they may be needed again to put them in place when this is all over.

Then again, "this all" could end in the inner world, so who knows.

The simple answer is that Xykon stored them in some extradimensional storage pocket that he accessed with his own magic, and retrieves items as he needs. He tossed the Cloister headband in there because he only needed it at absolute most once every 21 weeks (5 months).

Either that or he stores them in another plane, he has been shown to know Plane Shift.

Presumably he tossed the Gem in there at some point because he got bored with it, but didn't want to actually release the two.

If it's going to make a reappearance, it would most likely be if he encounters the Ghost of Girard or something, and Xykon pulls it out to taunt him with it.

[phobiandarkmoon]

Or, y'know, he stored them at the backup castle. The one that they go to right after Xykon got a new body. Either work

[SaintRidley]

Or, y'know, he stored them at the backup castle. The one that they go to right after Xykon got a new body. Either work


Well, that's one option which doesn't work. He got to the Dungeon, defeated Dorukan, trapped his soul and learned and used Cloister (with headband) and did not leave the dungeon (we know he sat in the throne room the whole time) until getting defeated and carried out in his phylactery.

[JSSheridan]

Well, that's one option which doesn't work. He got to the Dungeon, defeated Dorukan, trapped his soul and learned and used Cloister (with headband) and did not leave the dungeon (we know he sat in the throne room the whole time) until getting defeated and carried out in his phylactery.

He also warded his backup against teleportation, so that is out.

Unless he was using Cloister as that ward.

He said it had been decades since he had been back there though.

[factotum]

(we know he sat in the throne room the whole time)

How do we know that? Dorukan was defeated six *months* before the start of the main strip, and the only time in that entire six month period that we know for sure Xykon was sat in his throne room was when Roy and Durkon asked the Oracle where he was. Given how bored Xykon got after only three months sitting around in Azure City I can't see him just sitting there on his throne for twice that long, twiddling his phalanges!

[LuisDantas]

Maybe he didn't have another gem to hand? A gem used for soul bind has to be a black sapphire of value at least 1000gp per hit dice of the soul you're binding, and both Lirian and Dorukan were epic; gems like that are probably not easy to find!

This is probably wishful thinking or at least overthinking it, but if there is a hit dice / level requirement, is it conceivable that the prisoners might level up to the point of exceeding the jewel's capacity?

Probably not. I just liked the notion.

[Kish]

This is probably wishful thinking or at least overthinking it, but if there is a hit dice / level requirement, is it conceivable that the prisoners might level up to the point of exceeding the jewel's capacity?

Probably not. I just liked the notion.
They can't earn XP while trapped in the gem; what challenges would they overcome?

(No, sexual Olympics don't count.)

[KillianHawkeye]

This is probably wishful thinking or at least overthinking it, but if there is a hit dice / level requirement, is it conceivable that the prisoners might level up to the point of exceeding the jewel's capacity?

Probably not. I just liked the notion.

I'm pretty sure the spell assumes they aren't capable of doing that while trapped inside.

[LuisDantas]

They can't earn XP while trapped in the gem; what challenges would they overcome?

(No, sexual Olympics don't count.)

Agreed. Still, once it is established that the gem can hold more than one guest at the same time, and that it is possible to earn XP in the afterlife realms, I can easily picture the Giant deciding that the two of them can earn XP by fighting other prisoners under the right circunstances.

Or even from each other, I suppose. No, not from that. They can fight each other for XP, if the writer feels like it.

Idle pointless speculation from me, yes.

[Holy_Knight]

They can't earn XP while trapped in the gem; what challenges would they overcome?

(No, sexual Olympics don't count.)
They could earn role-playing XP. :smallsmile:

[Olinser]

Agreed. Still, once it is established that the gem can hold more than one guest at the same time, and that it is possible to earn XP in the afterlife realms, I can easily picture the Giant deciding that the two of them can earn XP by fighting other prisoners under the right circunstances.

Or even from each other, I suppose. No, not from that. They can fight each other for XP, if the writer feels like it.

Idle pointless speculation from me, yes.

Well, you can earn XP in the afterlife REALM - as the Evil Adventuring Party proved.

The question is whether afterlife SPIRITS can earn XP. Honestly, I kind of doubt it - otherwise give them just a couple centuries and instead of angels vs demons you have hordes of level 50-100 PCs fighting it out instead.

[Sapreaver]

If he had still had it, assuming he knows what a soul looks like why didn't he attempt to capture soon?

[SaintRidley]

If he had still had it, assuming he knows what a soul looks like why didn't he attempt to capture soon?

Soul Bind requires a recently slain corpse.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Interesting thought. What if Xykon doesn't have the gem, because it was still in his pocket. Instead, it got vacuumed up with all the other shiny by Haley. Who knows where it is now?

I think I just Crafted an Adventure Seed.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Interesting thought. What if Xykon doesn't have the gem, because it was still in his pocket. Instead, it got vacuumed up with all the other shiny by Haley. Who knows where it is now?

I think I just Crafted an Adventure Seed.

He didn't loose Dorukan's headband, so there is no reason to think he lost the gem either. Neither object would've been useful in the fight against the order, which Xykon planned for (including preparing a buffet). He probably had them stashed in a bag of holding behind the throne, which RC grabbed as he made his escape.

Grey Wolf

[Dr.Epic]

My first guess would be that Xykon has difficulty grasping the concept of 'love', or 'enjoying someone's company'.

Why? He was human once. We clearly knows that Red Cloak had compassion and love for Right Eye.

[factotum]

Why? He was human once.

Just because he was human doesn't actually mean he ever loved anyone, or even enjoyed their company. In fact, what little we saw of his life suggests he never did either of those things--his only joy in life was drinking coffee, and even that was taken away when he became a lich.

[davidbofinger]

The question is whether afterlife SPIRITS can earn XP. Honestly, I kind of doubt it - otherwise give them just a couple centuries and instead of angels vs demons you have hordes of level 50-100 PCs fighting it out instead.

Technically that doesn't mean they can't, it just means they do it slowly. It's analogous to elves: see On the Origin of PCs, pages 51 to 52.

OK, I'm splitting hairs, and may deserve a sneak attack upside my head. From the point of view of affecting the plot they can't get useful numbers of XPs in a reasonable time.