[Pathfinder] Ways to speed up combat?

[ZDPhoenix]

Our Carrion Crown game's been great over the last year; however, when we have a combat, it lasts way too long.

I'm looking for house rules and suggestions to help streamline (or at least speed-up) combat encounters.

Thanks in advance, gang!

[Sylthia]

What level is the party and how many people are in the party?

If your party doesn't mind and trusts you, roll some of the damage for powerful spells ahead of time and write them down in order on a sheet, then refer to it when you use a given spell. It's not a big deal at low levels, but adding up 20d6 racks up a lot of counting time if you add it all up. Conversely, you could just have enemy spellcasters use "Maximized" spells a lot.

If you have multiple enemies of a given type, just roll all their attacks together, then roll for damage as a unit.

Instead of rolling for enemy initiate, just add 10 to their modifiers.

Those are a few suggestions, that I've found helpful.

[Sylthia]

Another thing is that if it's obvious that the party will win after a few rounds, have the enemies surrender or run away, rather than fight to the death. Only works for certain enemy types, but it's good for RP and is more realistic much of the time.

[Addi]

In my experience the slowest combats happen due to unprepared players.
If your wizard doesn't know which spell to use/ has to look it up in the beginning of his turn or the fighter has to go through all the positions of allies and opponents a second time, this can really slow everything down.

A good Option is to show your players the initiative order on a black- or whiteboard. This way they can keep track of the combat flow and better prepare their turn in advance.

A more radical way is to remind your players, that combat is not the most comfortable environment for long thinking processes. Give everyone a maximum time to think about their actions - then let him/her delay automatically until the next player finishes his actions.

It is common in some groups groups to roll all your dice (for example an attack role with miss chance and damage) at once. But to do this you need to have color-coded dice. (Red dice for first attack, blue for second, white for third, etc.) Just discard the color that didn't hit.

Ask your players to be prepared.

I'm not that great with suitable houserules so I'll leave that to the others.

Maybe this helps a little.

[the_david]

I have one suggestion, though you may not like it.

Don't play Pathfinder. There are a lot of games where combat is a lot quicker, you might want to shop around for a system that allows you to handle combat a bit quicker.

Here are some ideas:
- BECMI/RC D&D, back to basics.
- Savage Worlds: Fast, furious, fun!
- Microlite20, it's free!
- Advanced XD20, from the X-treme Dungeon Mastery book. My personal favorite.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I think having a script for the enemies would be a good idea. For example:

Turn 1: Attack the wizard.
Turn 2: Full Attack nearest opponent.
Turn 3: Pounce

Etc. Or maybe could could have a list of priorities. For example, prioritize whom an enemy will attack in order of potential kill>Most immediate threat>spellcaster or whatever order is appropriate for that character.

Or you could have a list of contingencies. For example:

If Enemy falls below half health, drink a potion.
If Enemy eats a crit, drink a potion.
If Enemy falls below half health in one blow, summon aid (List aid here).

The essential thing is that scripting the encounters and likely actions makes things easier.

[Paul H]

Hi

In one of our online PFS games recently got a quick masterclass in Magus.

Char was a 9th lvl Magus, using Intesified Shocking Grasp.He's prep his sword to be keen through His Arcane Points thing. Adding 9D6 dam to his regular attacks made my Magus almost redundant & certainly sped up combat.

Also, we knew our stuff, and we'd already done the maths for our attacks whilst waiting our turn.

Nothing slows down a game like rules checks in middle of combat, or someone waiting for their turn, then working out all possible mathematical commutations whether they should power attack

Thanks
Paul H

[Sylthia]

I concur that a dry-erase board with initiate order helps quite a bit. I always play with one, but it's such a staple in our games that I forgot about it.

[Keneth]

I've always found it funny how a fight that technically lasts about half a minute ends up taking upwards of one hour to play out. Having initiative order written somewhere does indeed help somewhat, although I prefer using cards since the order tends to change a lot. You may also want to limit the time everyone has to do something during their turn, or they automatically delay until they decide.

But really, 3rd ed. D&D is a lot like playing chess, except there's more than two players. If you want combat to go faster, it might be better to look at other systems.


Adding 9D6 dam to his regular attacks made my Magus almost redundant & certainly sped up combat.

How did that make him... redundant? :smallconfused:

[Hyde]

If you can't answer with what you're going to do within six seconds (regardless of how long that action will take to resolve) you lose your turn.

[Keneth]

6 seconds is a bit short (even if it is exact), a situation can change wildly just before your turn, so you often need a little time to assess it before taking your action. You should probably know within 30 seconds tops though. Also, you can't lose your action unless you explicitly decide to do nothing, otherwise you only lose your place in the initiative order.

[Hyde]

Whichever. If your indecisiveness is significantly slowing down the game, you're going to be punished for it. I acknowledge it's probably a little harsh, but seriously, five minutes for a turn is too long. /sigh

[Raven777]

I'd tend to agree with Hyde on this one. During your turn is not the time to start reviewing the merits and demerits of every possible strategy. In character, your turn represents a six seconds window in the thick of a life and death situation. If you cannot near-immediately tell the DM what you are doing when your turn comes up, action should skip to the next character in the initiative order until your own character got his act together. A character can hesitate on what to do, and skipping over him reflects as such in the game's world.

[Keneth]

You also have to take into account the roleplaying aspect. A battle-hardened warrior or a wizard with 28 Int are probably a lot better at assessing and reacting to a combat situation than our nerdy selves. They might be able to decide in a few seconds, but you may not. Pushing players to act tactically in 6 seconds is not fun for everyone, just like speed chess is not fun for everyone. The amount of time players should be given depends on the group.

But yes, if you take too long, your character should automatically use the delay action until you decide, and if you don't decide by the end of the round, you lose your turn.

[JusticeZero]

Agree. Another thing is: Dont let them move their mini, or at least dont let them spend much time on it. Also, no takebacks. You get one waypoint. People spend way too much time coming up with labyrinthine winding paths to stay out of threatened space.

[ZDPhoenix]

Thanks for the suggestions. Pre-rolling combats may actually be the best way here. Or at least making sheets with typical attacks ahead of time.

We do have a white board; although it's just 4 of us and we've decided to forgo the initiative system in favor of teamwork related order (ranged, tank, dps). Doesn't take more time, which is really useful.

I would love to go to digital dice rolling, for damage tallies and +/- rolls; but already know that I'm alone on that desire.



I have one suggestion, though you may not like it.

Don't play Pathfinder. There are a lot of games where combat is a lot quicker, you might want to shop around for a system that allows you to handle combat a bit quicker.


That's not actually a suggestion about Pathfinder Combat; and every thread I looked at in Google was littered with that kind of response. Which (not to be brisk with your suggestion) is obnoxious and the reason I asked here in 3.5/d20. I appreciate your effort, but we have to stick to PFRPG.

Considering we play other games already; and have Numenera, d6 and Quantum playtests in the pipeline, I'd like to stick to Pathfinder for a Pathfinder Adventure Path that we've been playing for a year.

[JusticeZero]

I've never found the actual rolling of dice to take all that much time compared to planning. Certainly no more than looking numbers up off a list. Once people are in place, they can make a whole bunch of attacks in short order. However, looking up bonuses and so on is time consuming. If the numbers are all figured out in advance, it helps; so does making sure they don't dillydally on getting to those rolls.

[JoshuaZ]

You also have to take into account the roleplaying aspect. A battle-hardened warrior or a wizard with 28 Int are probably a lot better at assessing and reacting to a combat situation than our nerdy selves. They might be able to decide in a few seconds, but you may not. Pushing players to act tactically in 6 seconds is not fun for everyone, just like speed chess is not fun for everyone. The amount of time players should be given depends on the group.
.

I think this is really important- I don't have int 28, but playing an int 28 wizard can be fun. But to do so one will often need to think more slowly.

By the way- another helpful thing- when using a small numbers of dice (e.g. an attack or damage or a save), don't use an online roller. The time it takes to do it is often longer than just rolling a physical die.

[Grod_The_Giant]

I'd say that the biggest issue by far is players being unprepared on a macro level. That is, unprepared in terms of "what does this spell do?" or "what's my attack bonus with a bow," rather than "what will I do this round?" For that, I suggest...

Read your abilities at least once. If something's new, skim it before the game.
Figure out your bonuses ahead of time.
Have a brief summary sheet with all of your feats, class abilities, spells known/prepared and so on listed, along with a quick description of their effects ("Fireball-- 3rd lv, DC 18, long, 20ft burst, 6d6 fire") and a reference ("PHB 555").
If you summon things, have the stat sheets for your summons on hand.
If you shapeshift, have alternate sheets with your stats when you're in your common forms.
If the player wants to be really good, especially if they have complex abilities, copy and print the actual book pages and put everything in a binder. This is especially useful if your build has classes, feats, and spells from half a dozen different books.

[ericgrau]

Assuming you can trust the players, have them decide and preroll all their actions before their turn. Display monster ACs publicly. Then a turn can be little more than "I hit X monster for Y damage" or "I miss". A printout of pre-rolled monster saves might help too.

[Squirrel_Dude]

My friends always played with a soft rule of players have 1 minute to decide what they want to do or declare some kind of action. Not resolve the action or completely decide what they want to do for their turn, but simply say "I will cast X spell" or "I take a 5 foot step."

Just something to get them moving through their turn.

[Bucky]

Simply pinging players at the start the turn before theirs saves quite a bit of time by ensuring they're already alert and planning before their turn starts. "It's the troll's turn, then Bilbo's next. The troll uses its move action to..."

[lady_arrogance]

I'd say that the biggest issue by far is players being unprepared on a macro level. That is, unprepared in terms of "what does this spell do?" or "what's my attack bonus with a bow," rather than "what will I do this round?"

Both are important for speeding up a combat.

Player's knowledge of their characters is essential it, so Grod_The_Giant's list is very good one.

Initiavive board is also good idea, as it helps player's to think advance what their character's could do at their next round.

I'd say also, that players who are interested in what's going on in the battle are more willing to follow these advises. So on GM's part not falling in a "the monster hits you, you take 32 points damage" in his/her description of ongoing battle is (on my opinion) at least as important as player's investment by thinking ahead/knowing their abilities etc.

[CrazedRanger]

I tend to game over six to as many as thirteen players. Because of this I use a six second count rule. If you can't tell me what you're doing in that six seconds, your turn is delayed. At the end of the round I will come back to you. If by that time you have no idea what it is you're going to do, your round is forfeit.

Another house rule I use is for damage rolls. I give the players a high end average of thier dice d6=5, d8=6, d10=8, d12=10 for figuring out the damage they do, so I don't have to sit through someone rolling a lot of dice for damage, and adding it up. Secretly I increase all creatures hit points by 20%.

The last thing I do, is ask players to roll dice ahead of time. If you know you're next, and you're going to take an action that requires a dice roll, have that already done. Once we finish setting up the computers, and the large screen on the wall, I am considering having all rolls done via a chat room or something.

[ZDPhoenix]

I've done the average damage system before; and liked it myself. But there are some folks who get bummed that they never get max damage.

Regardless, I think we'll try rolling d20 and damage both dice at once today; and write down the damage + and -'s of creatures/players today before game starts.

[JusticeZero]

Main issue is that as soon as people get to their turn, they ask a bunch of questions about the battlefield and i'm not sure if they're doing it to stall for time. Make time for battlefield questions during the round - but not when it's time for you to move. As soon as the last person's action ends, your timer starts, and questions count against it, but allow a space between the end of an action and the next person's action for anyone except the person going next to ask a question.

[Karoht]

Initiative Order is visible to everyone.
Feat chain type attacks are approved in advance. Give them names. If the DM is confused, you say the name of the chain, show the DM his initial next to the chain and the name. If the DM spies something amiss, it's easier to look it up.
Spells and other such abilities require everyone to have the book open to that page, or the SRD, for every spell. No exceptions. Not even magic missile. This saves a world of headache, and if there is a rule discussion it will go much quicker.

If you have players who don't know what they want to do every round, institute a shot clock. Play it kind of like speed chess. As players begin to get more confident with their actions, as DM's better understand the rules, you'll sort of see the table get into a bit of a rhythm, and the whole thing (when moving) will turn into a well oiled engine of awesomeness.

As for the shot clock itself, I recommend starting off with a conservative time of 2 minutes. That's two minutes to decide what your character is doing. Two minutes from the time the other player says "I'm done, your turn" to the person declaring "I Power Attack Pounce that guy and make 4 attacks."

[Sylthia]

Another thing I've noticed helps is having a 4x6 index card with the info and most commonly used stats for a given character. If they are a blaster caster and are found of using fireball, they know that it deals 10d6 and has a Ref DC of 19 without having to look it up every time.