[d20 3.5] Overhauling an Archmage, how would you improve her?

[ericp65]

Greetings to all who view this :)

Darnelle is a 41-year-old female human wizard (plus other classes; CL 36) with half-elf traits, born on Earth but living on Toril (Forgotten Realms). Her driving passion is in gaining and using all the magical knowledge and power she can, without slipping into evil. I'm revising and rewriting her character, and would like some helpful input toward improving her, please. Let's put her in the shop and overhaul her :)

Sources: D&D 3.5e Players Handbook, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, and Epic Level Handbook; En World's Elements of Magic (revised edition); Monte Cook's Iron Heroes and Arcana Evolved.

I don't allow a character to take more than one PrC.

She has Eidetic Memory talent, Intelligent and Master of Lore traits, and Fire Mage ceremonial feat.

Level progression, as it stands now:

CL 1 - 18: W 1 - 18
CL 19: F 1
CL 20 - 21: W 19, 20
CL 22: Archmage 1
CL 23 - 35: W 21 - 23
CL 26: Archmage 2
CL 27 - 28: W 24, 25
CL 29: Evolved Human 1
CL 30: Evolved Intelligence 1
CL 31: Evolved Caster 1
CL 32 - 34: Archmage 3 - 5
CL 35 - 36: W 26, 27

I gave her a level of Fighter so she could learn to defend herself if caught without being able to use spells.

I may have made errors in how many feats she should gain in her progression. Her feats, as they stand now:

Skill Focus (knowledge(arcana)), Eschew Materials, Skill Focus (spellcraft), Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Brew Potion, Combat Casting, Spell Focus (evocations), Empower Spell, Spell Mastery, Craft Staff, Forge Ring, Craft Wand, Craft Rod, Weapon Focus (longsword), Energy Gestalt (fire & electricity), Additional Magic Item Space (rings), Efficient Item Creation (staves), Epic Spellcasting, Improved Spell Capacity, Multispell, Silent Spell, Still Spell.

All ability score increases went to INT, bringing it up to 28 at 36th Character Level.

Darnelle isn't specialized in her spells, but she greatly favors fire magic. I applied the fire template and fire casting style from Arcana Evolved.

The floor is open, and all ideas are welcome, encouraged, and appreciated! I'll gladly provide more details if asked.

[Randomguy]

I gave her a level of Fighter so she could learn to defend herself if caught without being able to use spells.

Adding a single level of fighter won't help your character defend herself without magic in the slightest. Going into a gish PrC pre-epic might, but a level of fighter won't. The only thing it really gives you is a bonus feat and proficiency with martial weapons, but you'd probably be better off not taking the fighter level and just using a quarterstaff if you're stuck without magic in melee.

You've also get the Weapon Focus feat, which is useless. Take Knowledge Devotion from Complete Champion and put ranks in knowledge skills that let you identify creatures, like Arcana, the Planes, Nature, Religion, Dungeoneering, and Local. You don't need to max them out, as long as you can hit +35 before rolling then you get a +5 to hit and damage against creatures of the type you rolled against. This should take maybe 15 ranks in each knowledge skill at most if you pick up the Collector of Stories skill trick from Complete Scoundrel.

You've got a lot of item creation feats that are either useless or really suboptimal. For example, at epic levels almost all of your allies should be able to easily use a low level scroll, so you don't need Brew Potion. Also, crafting charged items in general is a really good way to become a lower level than the rest of your party for no lasting benefit.

Combat casting is useless to you at this level as well, since you can succeed on the casting defensively check automatically at this level. If you want higher concentration, take Skill Focus for it.

You've only got, like 5 epic feats when you should have about 11.

[Urpriest]

Could you give a general summary of the third-party stuff used? Most people on this forum aren't very familiar with third-party material. Just a quick blurb of what things do would be nice.

Anyway, it seems a little odd for a mysterious epic level NPC to be focused on blasting people with fire. That seems like a very un-Archmagey thing to be interested in, since it's kind of a solo endeavor. An epic level character can change the world, being focused on burning nearby objects just feels...limited.

Also, while this is irrelevant to the topic at hand, you should reconsider not allowing characters to have more than one PrC, since many PrCs (Archmage in particular) are designed to be taken by characters who already have a PrC.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Your notation is hard to understand. Does that F mean a level of Fighter? Where are Evolved Intelligence and Evolved Caster from? (and could you give a quick rundown on what they do?) If they don't supercede Evolved Human, I'd take way more Evolved Human levels. They're very good, and Wizard levels 26 and 27 are junk.

You have a lot of junk feats, and miss a lot of prerequisites. I'd just tear that section down and start over. You'll need Energy Mage for your fire templating, Quicken Spell for Multispell, two spell focuses for archmage, Skill focus: Spellcraft for archmage. You'll want to keep Epic Spellcasting and probably a good handful of Improved Spell Capacities. But there's a lot of junk on that list like Combat Casting, Weapon Focus, Stilled and Silent Spell and a lot of the crafting feats (especially the ones that only produce low level spell effects, but in general, Scribe Scroll, Craft Wondrous Item and Greater Planar Binding will cover for the majority of your crafting needs). I'd substitute Quicken Spell, Persistent Spell, Twin Spell, Energy Mage (Electricity), Spellcasting Prodigy, Unraveling Mage and other feats that make the character's spells meaningfully more powerful.

On classes, I'd need to revisit AU and FRCS to see what's available, but AU's Mage Priest is pretty powerful if I recall correctly, and I remember FRCS having a number of full casting classes with easy prerequisites. I'm sure you can come up with a combination of them and Loremaster that will bring more to the table than the fighter dip and all those wizard levels.

[ericp65]

See? I knew she was broken *L*

Sorry for not giving enough detail at the outset.

First, my possibly incorrect understanding of feat acquisition is that, once you take a second class, you gain only those feats that come with Character Levels, and none from individual classes. If that's not canon, I need to know what is.

As for Weapon Focus, she needs to be able to wield a magical longsword she created as though proficient in it, so how can she accomplish that without taking the feat?

Yes, in the class progression, W stands for Wizard (even though it's called Mage in Elements of Magic), and F stands for Fighter.

I don't know what a Gish is, so I'll look it up :)

Third-party details:

Arcana Evolved text:
The Evolved Human
Humans exposed to the tenebrian seeds become more muscular
and fit, smarter, faster, and even better looking. However, the
transformation differs for each human. The changes in some
focus almost entirely on the physical, while in others they are
mainly mental. Evolved humans often grow slightly arrogant due
to their advantages, proclaiming their superiority over their fellows.
See the table above for details.
Hit Die: 1d8
Skill Points at 1st Character Level: (2+ Intelligence bonus) × 4.
Skill Points at Higher Levels: 2 + Intelligence bonus.
“Class” Skills: Choose any six skills to be class skills.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Evolved humans gain no additional proficiency with weapons or shields.

There are three Evolved Human levels:
1 - BAB +0, Saves +0/+0/+0, +1 ability score (any), +1 bonus feat (any), +1 existing caster level.
2 - BAB +1, Saves +1/+1/+1, +1 ability score (any), +1 bonus feat (any), +1 existing caster level.
3 - BAB +2, Saves +2/+2/+2, +1 ability score (any), +1 bonus feat (any), +1 existing caster level.

Arcana Evolved Transcendence text:
EVOLVED CASTER REPLACEMENT LEVELS
A caster of any sort can take up to three levels in the
evolved spellcaster class. To take these replacement levels,
you must meet the following minimum requirements:
• Caster level 5th
• Access to spell slots of at least 3rd level
• Access to a spell template. The template(s) determines
which evolved levels you can select.
When you enter this class, you must choose a specialty that reflects your obsession and connection to a specific style of magic. Before you can enter it, you must choose three spells that you can ready and make them a permanent part of your readied selection of spells. These spells must share a descriptor with the relevant spell template.
To progress as an evolved caster, the character must master increasingly difficult styles of magic. Characters must obey the following specific prerequisites for each level:
Level 1: As noted above.
Level 2: 1st arcane caster replacement level, able to cast 5th-level spells.
Level 3: 1st and 2nd arcane caster replacement level, able to cast 7th-level spells.
Once you have decided to take evolved caster replacement levels, you must select a casting style. Each style has an associated spell template as a prerequisite (see Chapter Eight: Magic in Arcana Evolved for more on spell templates). You must have access to the given spell template to choose a particular casting style. The style you select determines the exact abilities these replacement levels grant you.
If you have access to more than one spell template and if you fulfill the requirements above for both templates, you can gain access to more than one casting style. You gain levels in each style independently. For example, gaining one replacement level does not grant access to all of your styles’ first abilities. Instead, you must take the levels separately for each style you wish to develop.
In some cases, a single template grants access to more than one style. The strictures outlined above still apply in this case. You do not gain the relevant abilities from every style for which you qualify. You must choose one style and gain the lowest level ability from it that you do not already possess.

There are three Evolved Caster levels:

1 - BAB +0, Saves +0/+0/+1, First casting style ability, +1 caster level.
2 - BAB +0, Saves +1/+0/+0, Second casting style ability.
3 - BAB +0, Saves +0/+0/+1, Third casting style ability, +1 caster level.

Elements of Magic gives a Mage two bonus class skills at first level, and player's choice of Magical Boons at levels 1, 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20. These are spell-like or supernatural abilities the character acquires, grouped into Minor, Moderate, and Major Boons. Darnelle chose Magical Aptitude (bonus feat), Resist Fear (+4 bonus), Summon Familiar (she acquired her familiar, a cat, at CL 13), Uncanny Vision (extends her racial Low-Light Vision), Improved Signature Spell (fireball) (cast as a standard action), Magical Protection (+5 resistance bonus to saves), and Major Energy Resistance (energy resistance 10 vs. fire).

She's not a pyromaniac, but fire is her favorite element. Just a flavor thing.

I like the idea of dropping the Fighter dip, if she can manage fine without it, and freeing up some of those feats will help her to take some that will give her greater benefit.

[Juntao112]

As for Weapon Focus, she needs to be able to wield a magical longsword she created as though proficient in it, so how can she accomplish that without taking the feat?
Weapon Proficiency grants you proficiency. Weapon Focus grants you +1 to attack rolls.

[ericp65]

For feats per character level, I use the Iron Heroes progression of one at first CL, then one at every even-numbered CL through 20th. For feats, attack bonus, and saves, I follow the D&D 3.5e core rules for epic-level characters.

I'll remove my imposition of a single PrC per character as long as a given combination is thematically congruous and fits the campaign setting. I don't know where the idea came from, I've just always played that way.

Darnelle is a PC and an NPC, depending on the campaign. she's my favorite arcane spellcaster, originally written in AD&D 2nd Ed, and converted from there when I abandoned 2nd Ed in favor of 3rd, and then 3.5 (which is my favorite D&D rules system).

[Urpriest]

See? I knew she was broken *L*

Sorry for not giving enough detail at the outset.

First, my possibly incorrect understanding of feat acquisition is that, once you take a second class, you gain only those feats that come with Character Levels, and none from individual classes. If that's not canon, I need to know what is.

I have no idea what you mean by this. There are no special rules for things that happen "once you take a second class" in 3.5, except for the multiclassing XP penalty. Nor are there feats that come from individual classes, besides bonus feats gained by specific classes like Fighter and Wizard.



As for Weapon Focus, she needs to be able to wield a magical longsword she created as though proficient in it, so how can she accomplish that without taking the feat?


Weapon Focus [General]

Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites

Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit

You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special

You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.

A fighter may select Weapon Focus as one of his fighter bonus feats. He must have Weapon Focus with a weapon to gain the Weapon Specialization feat for that weapon.

Weapon Focus requires you to already have proficiency with the weapon, it certainly doesn't give you proficiency if you don't already have it. Perhaps you were thinking of another feat?


Yes, in the class progression, W stands for Wizard (even though it's called Mage in Elements of Magic), and F stands for Fighter.

I don't know what a Gish is, so I'll look it up :)

Gish is a word for a caster (usually Arcane, sometimes Divine) who uses their magic to be better at fighting with weapons rather than focusing on casting spells at their enemies. There are lots of prestige classes that help out with this.


Thanks for the third-party details, I've got a better idea of the character concept (though it looks like Arcana Evolved Mages have a rather different casting system than D&D 3.5 Wizards, given some of your choices, but maybe I'm just getting the wrong impression).

An important question here is, what is your character focused on? If fire is merely a choice of style rather than a real specialty, then what sort of Archmage-ish stuff does this character do? What, thematically speaking, makes this character a 36th level character rather than a lower level one? What sort of accomplishments do you want her to be capable of?

Is the sword just there to give her something to do when she can't cast? If so, it doesn't help with that. It's generally pretty easy for a Wizard to avoid situations where they can't cast, so it's not something you should worry about.

[WhatBigTeeth]

First, my possibly incorrect understanding of feat acquisition is that, once you take a second class, you gain only those feats that come with Character Levels, and none from individual classes. If that's not canon, I need to know what is.
Nope. You gain class features from whatever classes you're in, including feats, as well as the ones you gain at with 1, 3, 6, 9... hit dice, regardless of multiclassing. I don't think that changed in Arcana Unearthed/Evolved. EDIT: We're mixing Iron Heroes into the core rules too? :smalleek: I skimmed that book once, but it's not something I'll be able to reference. I don't *think* that would undermine the advice.

Okay, so the Intelligence Evolved Class is 3 levels of full casting, +1 Int/level and a handful of bonuses for Intelligence skills. Taking all three levels is dramatically better than 3 levels of Wizard (3 Int+perks v. 3/5 of a feat is pretty clear-cut, IMO).

But the Arcane Caster level replacements aren't all that hot. The casting styles are mostly pretty weak, and definitely not worth the lost second casting level. It might be worth a 1-level dip, especially with Fear or Negative Energy styles, but going past that is a bum deal.

[ericp65]

Weapon Proficiency grants you proficiency. Weapon Focus grants you +1 to attack rolls.

Right, and that's why I'd thought it was necessary to give her a class that grants proficiency in martial weapons. Maybe Martial Weapon Proficiency feat will obviate the need for a Fighter level. Whatever is best to give her the ability to wear at least light armor, and wield a longsword :)

[Urpriest]

Right, and that's why I'd thought it was necessary to give her a class that grants proficiency in martial weapons. Maybe Martial Weapon Proficiency feat will obviate the need for a Fighter level. Whatever is best to give her the ability to wear at least light armor, and wield a longsword :)

Why does she want to wear light armor and wield a longsword, though? Does this character mostly fight by casting spells or by wielding a sword?

[Seer_of_Heart]

I want to make sure I understand you properly.
Your current progression is wizard 18/fighter 1/wizard 2/archmage 1/wizard 3/archmage 1/wizard 2/Evolved Human 1/Evolved Intelligence 1/Evolved Caster 1/archmage 3/wizard 2.

Am I correct in that?

I think you should dump the weapon focus feat(it barely helps), the additional item space feat(you can combine the items in exchange for an increase in cost), spell focus evocation (just increase your int its way too low), combat casting(you should have no problem with concentration at this point). And take the Automatic Quicken Spell feat 3 times and quicken spell. I also think you should dump improved spell capacity for another multispell because you want to take many of them to make it useful. I also would replace all the crafting feats with one feat, leadership and (optionally) epic leadership to get a artificer cohort to do all your crafting for you. Move those feats into metamagic feats or epic feats or something else.


I also think you should allow multiple prestige classes if they at least finish their old one. I think loremaster would be a good fit for this character.

[ericp65]

I have no idea what you mean by this. There are no special rules for things that happen "once you take a second class" in 3.5, except for the multiclassing XP penalty. Nor are there feats that come from individual classes, besides bonus feats gained by specific classes like Fighter and Wizard.

[snip]

Gish is a word for a caster (usually Arcane, sometimes Divine) who uses their magic to be better at fighting with weapons rather than focusing on casting spells at their enemies. There are lots of prestige classes that help out with this.

Thanks for the third-party details, I've got a better idea of the character concept (though it looks like Arcana Evolved Mages have a rather different casting system than D&D 3.5 Wizards, given some of your choices, but maybe I'm just getting the wrong impression).

An important question here is, what is your character focused on? If fire is merely a choice of style rather than a real specialty, then what sort of Archmage-ish stuff does this character do? What, thematically speaking, makes this character a 36th level character rather than a lower level one? What sort of accomplishments do you want her to be capable of?

Is the sword just there to give her something to do when she can't cast? If so, it doesn't help with that. It's generally pretty easy for a Wizard to avoid situations where they can't cast, so it's not something you should worry about.

Darnelle is a spellcaster first and foremost. She's gained experience from first level all the way up. In campaigns, she and her husband became monarchs of an area in the Forgotten Realms called Damara (from the Bloodstone series, H1 - H4, if memory serves). She's abdicated her position to free herself up to explore the Planes, and to take on epic challenges wherever she might find them if it means gaining more magical knowledge. She's had considerable experience fighting dragons, and does far more adventuring in a group than alone, spending most of her time studying and creating spells and items. Her chosen weapon is a magical longsword she created to defeat evil arcane casters by inflicting Contagion (Mindfire or Confidence Crusher) on them, heightened to 4th level. It's a sentient item, but that's not important right now. Darnelle is interested in ways of pairing/combining magical fire and electricity effects, so she studies and practices that quite a bit, but she's interested in the full spectrum of spell schools. She's also spent time instructing aspiring arcane casters, before she turned that activity over to a friend so she could devote more time to her pursuits.

[ericp65]

Why does she want to wear light armor and wield a longsword, though? Does this character mostly fight by casting spells or by wielding a sword?

She wouldn't go armored unless she found herself in a situation where she really needed it. Maybe that's not necessary at all, but she uses a specific sword she created if she can position herself to attack an evil arcane caster with it.

[ericp65]

I want to make sure I understand you properly.
Your current progression is wizard 18/fighter 1/wizard 2/archmage 1/wizard 3/archmage 1/wizard 2/Evolved Human 1/Evolved Intelligence 1/Evolved Caster 1/archmage 3/wizard 2.

Am I correct in that?

I think you should dump the weapon focus feat(it barely helps), the additional item space feat(you can combine the items in exchange for an increase in cost), spell focus evocation (just increase your int its way too low), combat casting(you should have no problem with concentration at this point). And take the Automatic Quicken Spell feat 3 times and quicken spell. I also think you should dump improved spell capacity for another multispell because you want to take many of them to make it useful. I also would replace all the crafting feats with one feat, leadership and (optionally) epic leadership to get a artificer cohort to do all your crafting for you. Move those feats into metamagic feats or epic feats or something else.


I also think you should allow multiple prestige classes if they at least finish their old one. I think loremaster would be a good fit for this character.

I believe that's the correct level progression. Yes, it looks like Weapon Focus was a blunder on my part. Loremaster would indeed fit the character concept, so...lots of good stuff here. Thanks!

[Urpriest]

Darnelle is a spellcaster first and foremost. She's gained experience from first level all the way up. In campaigns, she and her husband became monarchs of an area in the Forgotten Realms called Damara (from the Bloodstone series, H1 - H4, if memory serves). She's abdicated her position to free herself up to explore the Planes, and to take on epic challenges wherever she might find them if it means gaining more magical knowledge. She's had considerable experience fighting dragons, and does far more adventuring in a group than alone, spending most of her time studying and creating spells and items. Her chosen weapon is a magical longsword she created to defeat evil arcane casters by inflicting Contagion (Mindfire or Confidence Crusher) on them, heightened to 4th level. It's a sentient item, but that's not important right now. Darnelle is interested in ways of pairing/combining magical fire and electricity effects, so she studies and practices that quite a bit, but she's interested in the full spectrum of spell schools. She's also spent time instructing aspiring arcane casters, before she turned that activity over to a friend so she could devote more time to her pursuits.

See, in 3.5 she probably wouldn't have forged that sword, since it wouldn't be much more helpful than just delivering Contagion via a touch attack, and would be less likely to hit. So part of the question is, do you want to stat this character as they were in 2e, or as they would have been in 3.5?

The whole elemental theoretician fluff works for an explanation as to why an epic Archmage is interested in blasting things with fire. While most of the elements that make blasting worthwhile are in books you don't have access to, Epic levels do give some useful goodies on that front. I'll second the recommendation of Automatic Quicken.


She wouldn't go armored unless she found herself in a situation where she really needed it. Maybe that's not necessary at all, but she uses a specific sword she created if she can position herself to attack an evil arcane caster with it.

She won't need it. She can get better AC through lots of other means, including just with spells. One thing that Epic Spells are pretty good at is buffing AC, for example.

[ericp65]

See, in 3.5 she probably wouldn't have forged that sword, since it wouldn't be much more helpful than just delivering Contagion via a touch attack, and would be less likely to hit. So part of the question is, do you want to stat this character as they were in 2e, or as they would have been in 3.5?

The whole elemental theoretician fluff works for an explanation as to why an epic Archmage is interested in blasting things with fire. While most of the elements that make blasting worthwhile are in books you don't have access to, Epic levels do give some useful goodies on that front. I'll second the recommendation of Automatic Quicken.

She won't need it. She can get better AC through lots of other means, including just with spells. One thing that Epic Spells are pretty good at is buffing AC, for example.

I'm looking to rewrite her as though she'd always been in 3.5e. Call it a "reimagining" if you like. She's definitely a blaster. As for other sourcebooks, I do have many of the Complete series, some of the "Races of..." series, third-party Quintessential II series, and The Complete Book of Eldritch Might (I love the item creation rules!). No published materials are barred.

[ericp65]

Nope. You gain class features from whatever classes you're in, including feats, as well as the ones you gain at with 1, 3, 6, 9... hit dice, regardless of multiclassing. I don't think that changed in Arcana Unearthed/Evolved. EDIT: We're mixing Iron Heroes into the core rules too? :smalleek: I skimmed that book once, but it's not something I'll be able to reference. I don't *think* that would undermine the advice.

Okay, so the Intelligence Evolved Class is 3 levels of full casting, +1 Int/level and a handful of bonuses for Intelligence skills. Taking all three levels is dramatically better than 3 levels of Wizard (3 Int+perks v. 3/5 of a feat is pretty clear-cut, IMO).

But the Arcane Caster level replacements aren't all that hot. The casting styles are mostly pretty weak, and definitely not worth the lost second casting level. It might be worth a 1-level dip, especially with Fear or Negative Energy styles, but going past that is a bum deal.

Holy Crack! All feats (class and bonus) apply, even with a multiclassed character? Gonna have to revise all my characters, then *facepalm* I had 'em all written that way, but every time I read the mc rules, I come away thinking the wrong way. As for IH, the content that's most applicable here is the feats per CL acquisition progression, and I use Background Traits (and from AU, the ceremonial feats and talents).

Looks good to keep Evolved Caster at one level, and swap out three "Wizard" levels for the rest of the Evolved INT levels :)

[Seer_of_Heart]

If you wish to blast I recommend the enhance spell metamagic feat which helps make powerful blasting spells by increasing the dice. Metamagic abuse is always good for blasting which I recommend levels in incantrix that has a capstone of reducing metamagic level adjustment costs by 1 level(down to +1 level minimum). It also has several other abilities relating to metamagic which is good. You have to give up a spell school but there is a 3 feat chain to regain a school of spells. There also is the improved metamagic epic feat which reduces metamagic costs by 1 (down to +1 level minimum too). Searing spell lets you ignore fire immunity for 1/2 the damage. You may want to use intensify spell which is better than a maximize and empowered spell combined but its more expensive when using reducers(each reducer takes 2 off the cost however that has a higher minimum cost(with many reducers intensify spell has a cost of +1 min, empowered +maximized is +2)). Arcane thesis lets you pick spells to get a - to adjustments that can go down to a -0 (or very cheesy a negative adjustment for +0 metamagic). Fell feats may be useful on arcane thesised spells for some neat effects for free (a +1 cost is debatable on its usefulness). I feel that there is more metamagic and blasting advice but this is the most I can give you sorry!(plus if you take the multispell and automatic quicken I suggested before you get 4 blasts a round :smallamused:)


links where possible

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#improvedMetamagic
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#enhanceSpell
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#intensifySpell
http://dndtools.eu/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-the-dead--71/fell-drain--1103/
http://dndtools.eu/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-the-dead--71/fell-weaken--1107/
http://dndtools.eu/feats/libris-mortis-the-book-of-the-dead--71/fell-frighten--1104/

[Urpriest]

I'm looking to rewrite her as though she'd always been in 3.5e. Call it a "reimagining" if you like. She's definitely a blaster. As for other sourcebooks, I do have many of the Complete series, some of the "Races of..." series, third-party Quintessential II series, and The Complete Book of Eldritch Might (I love the item creation rules!). No published materials are barred.

Oh ok, that opens things up substantially. In that case, you definitely need some way of hurting fire-immune things with fire. Searing Spell is the classic choice, a +1 level adjustment metamagic from Sandstorm that lets you pierce through both resistance and immunity.

I'd take a look at the Mailman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer). You won't be able to use some of it due to being a Wizard (which is fine, Wizard is better for your concept anyway) but there still should be a lot you can crib.

Basically, you want to focus on a few serious damage spells like Orb of Fire (Complete Arcane, or Spell Compendium). At Epic Levels most of the things this character fights will have very high saving throws and often high SR or flat-out spell immunity, so you want to avoid spells that offer saves or allow SR, and Orb of Fire luckily avoids both. You can even toss it into an Antimagic Field if you stand outside.

[ericp65]

The other Spell Focus is in Abjuration, btw.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Alright, I'm going to try and write you a class progression and feat list I think is good if you don't mind. You should feel free to modify and borrow things from it as you like. I'll try and explain what everything I suggest is for. However, I'm busy right now so I'll probably be done tonight/tomorrow. If you mind though I will stop no problem.

[Urpriest]

Holy Crack! All feats (class and bonus) apply, even with a multiclassed character? Gonna have to revise all my characters, then *facepalm* I had 'em all written that way, but every time I read the mc rules, I come away thinking the wrong way. As for IH, the content that's most applicable here is the feats per CL acquisition progression, and I use Background Traits (and from AU, the ceremonial feats and talents).

Looks good to keep Evolved Caster at one level, and swap out three "Wizard" levels for the rest of the Evolved INT levels :)

Ok, I think you're still confused about this, and I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out what the source of the confusion is.

Here's how it works: all characters gain feats based on character level, or hit dice (which I assume you're using CL to abbreviate, which is kind of confusing because I usually see it mean caster level). Those feats have nothing to do with which classes or combinations of classes you take. Normally you gain one every three levels, but since you're using Iron Heroes rules it's one every two levels or something?

Classes can give bonus feats. Those are class features, so just like any other class feature they're dependent on how many levels you have in that particular class. Just like you wouldn't get 3rd level spells as a Fighter 1/Wizard 4, you wouldn't get your fifth level wizard bonus feat either. Instead, you'd get it as a Fighter 1/Wizard 5, when you are a fifth level wizard just like any other fifth level wizard.

I guess what I don't quite understand is, which part of this did you get mixed up about?

[ericp65]

Alright, I'm going to try and write you a class progression and feat list I think is good if you don't mind. You should feel free to modify and borrow things from it as you like. I'll try and explain what everything I suggest is for. However, I'm busy right now so I'll probably be done tonight/tomorrow. If you mind though I will stop no problem.

Fantastic! Please sketch it up, and I'll see if it needs a nudge here or there. I'm in no great hurry, and the time will help me absorb all this great goodness :)

[ericp65]

Ok, I think you're still confused about this, and I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out what the source of the confusion is.

Here's how it works: all characters gain feats based on character level, or hit dice (which I assume you're using CL to abbreviate, which is kind of confusing because I usually see it mean caster level). Those feats have nothing to do with which classes or combinations of classes you take. Normally you gain one every three levels, but since you're using Iron Heroes rules it's one every two levels or something?

Classes can give bonus feats. Those are class features, so just like any other class feature they're dependent on how many levels you have in that particular class. Just like you wouldn't get 3rd level spells as a Fighter 1/Wizard 4, you wouldn't get your fifth level wizard bonus feat either. Instead, you'd get it as a Fighter 1/Wizard 5, when you are a fifth level wizard just like any other fifth level wizard.

I guess what I don't quite understand is, which part of this did you get mixed up about?

Yes, all instances of CL in my notes refer to total character level. I understand a character beginning play at 1st level with one feat (plus another if human), and bonus feat from character class, if applicable. At additional levels, I understand that the character gains both the feat every x character levels and bonus feats from class, at the appropriate class levels. What I got mixed up on is that, when the character multiclasses (say, Fighter 6/Rogue 1 at character level 7), I thought the rule was that such a character never again gains any bonus feats from individual class levels, but only from overall character level. Again, I have no idea why my mind keeps thinking that way. Maybe it's the wording in the multiclassing section of the 3.5e PHB. Anyway, thank you very much for clarifying/confirming this! The implications to my characters will be significant.

[Urpriest]

Yes, all instances of CL in my notes refer to total character level. I understand a character beginning play at 1st level with one feat (plus another if human), and bonus feat from character class, if applicable. At additional levels, I understand that the character gains both the feat every x character levels and bonus feats from class, at the appropriate class levels. What I got mixed up on is that, when the character multiclasses (say, Fighter 6/Rogue 1 at character level 7), I thought the rule was that such a character never again gains any bonus feats from individual class levels, but only from overall character level. Again, I have no idea why my mind keeps thinking that way. Maybe it's the wording in the multiclassing section of the 3.5e PHB. Anyway, thank you very much for clarifying/confirming this! The implications to my characters will be significant.

Ah ok, just a misheard rule then.

By the way, for the times this character is an NPC, what role do you want them to play? Would they be more like a mentor to the PCs, or a rival? Would they be interacting with PCs who are also epic level, or would they be in the background for a lower level game?

[ericp65]

Ah ok, just a misheard rule then.

By the way, for the times this character is an NPC, what role do you want them to play? Would they be more like a mentor to the PCs, or a rival? Would they be interacting with PCs who are also epic level, or would they be in the background for a lower level game?

Her NPC role is/will be usually an advisor and/or quest-giver to non-epic characters/parties. She's Chaotic Good with Neutral tendencies along the L/C axis, with a kind and helpful disposition, and generous with her available resources within reasonable limits. She'd be willing to mentor or accompany other epic characters/parties. She's never a party leader.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Alright assumptions I made prestige classes are allowed after the old one is finished up. If they're allowed to be left early MATO 7 and Loremaster 9 instead

General class levels overview 36? levels to work with
wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane order 10/archmage 5/IO7V 7/Evolved human 3/Loremaster 6
I would trade the 5th level metamagic feat/item creation feat for spontaneous divination otherwise take fell drain
MATO seems like it fits thematicaly and it adds uses letting the character leave open spell to get any spell
I like IO7V it adds defensive options while sharing many feat prereqs with archmage which I assume you want no matter what

feats(order gets a bit flubbed up)(the random feats are prereqs probably)
Obtain skill focus KR from the frog god's fane
empower spell, maximize spell, cooperative spell, Eschew Materials, skill focus (spellcraft), Spell Focus (abjuration), Greater spell focus(abjuration), quicken spell, skill focus(knowledge (religion)), searing spell, spell focus(choice school), leadership(artificer cohort for crafting, otherwise fell drain or something), epic spellcasting, enhance spell, multispell, Automatic Quicken Spell, Automatic Quicken Spell, Automatic Quicken Spell, Epic Leadership(if really needing a high level artificer cohort otherwise multispell), Improved Metamagic, Improved Metamagic, multispell

if flaws allowed move around some feats and take arcane thesis(orb of fire) and twin spell, also dump one multispell and take improved metamagic again(or not the extra +2 adjustment won't kill you at this level). The 2 multispells and twin spell let you fire off 8 enhanced maximized empowered searing orb of fires each round(felldraining if feat taken (1 negative level each)) each doing 225 damage and 1/2 of that goes through fire immunity.

Other people could probably do better but I think this is probably good enough.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Oh ok, that opens things up substantially. In that case, you definitely need some way of hurting fire-immune things with fire.
One feat along these lines which is available via Arcana Evolved is Unraveling Mage. It allows a character to cast Unraveling-templated spells. These are spells which take an additional spell slot (ew), but which have a Greater Dispel Magic effect which targets any magical effect that would negate the spell. So with Unraveling Mage, this character could punch through things like Mind Blanks, True Seeings, Fortification armors, and all those other problematic immunity spells, provided the caster can get her CL high enough (Arcane Mastery is good here).

The other AE feats that would be of particular note are Energy Mage (Electric), which adds a Stunning rider effect to spells at no increase in spell level, Energy Mage (Sonic), which adds a deafening rider effect, Creator Mage, which can make any spell permanent at an XP cost and 3 spell level increase and Energy Mage (Cold), which adds a Slow rider effect, but only to damage spells.

[Urpriest]

One feat along these lines which is available via Arcana Evolved is Unraveling Mage. It allows a character to cast Unraveling-templated spells. These are spells which take an additional spell slot (ew), but which have a Greater Dispel Magic effect which targets any magical effect that would negate the spell. So with Unraveling Mage, this character could punch through things like Mind Blanks, True Seeings, Fortification armors, and all those other problematic immunity spells, provided the caster can get her CL high enough (Arcane Mastery is good here).

The other AE feats that would be of particular note are Energy Mage (Electric), which adds a Stunning rider effect to spells at no increase in spell level, Energy Mage (Sonic), which adds a deafening rider effect, Creator Mage, which can make any spell permanent at an XP cost and 3 spell level increase and Energy Mage (Cold), which adds a Slow rider effect, but only to damage spells.

How severe is the XP cost? Getting a decent buff stack (if combined with some protection from dispelling) permanent for only +3 levels one day would be very very good.

[WhatBigTeeth]

How severe is the XP cost? Getting a decent buff stack (if combined with some protection from dispelling) permanent for only +3 levels one day would be very very good.
Pretty dang cheap. 500 x [original] Spell Level x any explicit item creation modifiers, limited to a number of permanent effects equal to the caster's intelligence bonus.

[Urpriest]

Pretty dang cheap. 500 x [original] Spell Level x any explicit item creation modifiers, limited to a number of permanent effects equal to the caster's intelligence bonus.

Hmm...Int bonus is pretty forgiving, though still doesn't enable Team Solars levels of buffing. Still, coupled with Incantatrix...how does 30 permanent or all-day buffs sound? You could be immune to pretty much everything, for one (some fun examples for the OP: Friendly Fire from Exemplars of Evil lets you redirect any ranged attack in 30 feet, including spells, Ironward (Spell Compendium) stops anything metal from hitting you).

[ericp65]

Pretty dang cheap. 500 x [original] Spell Level x any explicit item creation modifiers, limited to a number of permanent effects equal to the caster's intelligence bonus.

How is the XP cost derived? I didn't see anything obvious in the descriptive text.

[ericp65]

Hmm...Int bonus is pretty forgiving, though still doesn't enable Team Solars levels of buffing. Still, coupled with Incantatrix...how does 30 permanent or all-day buffs sound? You could be immune to pretty much everything, for one (some fun examples for the OP: Friendly Fire from Exemplars of Evil lets you redirect any ranged attack in 30 feet, including spells, Ironward (Spell Compendium) stops anything metal from hitting you).

Might be able to swap out a class level somewhere for Incantatrix, although Darnelle is typically the only arcane caster in her party mixes.

Boy, did I come to the right place to ask about this character! :)

[WhatBigTeeth]

How is the XP cost derived? I didn't see anything obvious in the descriptive text.
Check the "Permanent" spell template. There are some restrictions on what works with it (no spells which are explicitly banned in their Magic Item Creation Modifier entries), but the exceptions will all be Arcana Evolved spells. If you use the feat, you might want to stick with the AE spells though (provided that a wizard can cast them... I imagine it's possible), just to keep things from getting too crazy.

[ericp65]

Check the "Permanent" spell template. There are some restrictions on what works with it (no spells which are explicitly banned in their Magic Item Creation Modifier entries), but the exceptions will all be Arcana Evolved spells. If you use the feat, you might want to stick with the AE spells though (provided that a wizard can cast them... I imagine it's possible), just to keep things from getting too crazy.

Missed that part. Thanks, I see it now :) Yeah, I'm giving thought to using AE equivalents to core D&D arcane spells, wherever possible. Not yet ready to draw up a list, but I'll get there.

[ericp65]

Once I've set the feats in order by character level, I'll post the revised level progression, as I have it so far, and we can hopefully fine-tune it from there :)

My calculations on attack bonuses come out to +15/+10/+5 at 36th character level, so please check me if I'm wrong there.

[Talya]

Most of the suggestions I have here get overruled by the "Only allowing a single PRC" rule. (I don't like it, but it is what it is.)

[Urpriest]

Most of the suggestions I have here get overruled by the "Only allowing a single PRC" rule. (I don't like it, but it is what it is.)

The OP was convinced to roll it back. Sometimes, we actually can educate people! :smallsmile:

[ericp65]

The OP was convinced to roll it back. Sometimes, we actually can educate people! :smallsmile:

That's right! I wish I'd convinced myself of it years ago *LOL* Multiple PrCs appears to be the ideal strategy for enabling the character to more closely match her concept, and for me, the concept and story take precedence. Old dog learning new tricks here!

[ericp65]

Most of the suggestions I have here get overruled by the "Only allowing a single PRC" rule. (I don't like it, but it is what it is.)

Sometimes, my own ideas are less than great, clearly. Back in 2nd Ed, I didn't allow mc characters to take kits, but I tossed all racial class restrictions and all level caps out the window after the Bloodstone series came out, giving rules for taking characters to 100th level. Looks like flexibility wins the day :) So, please share your thoughts, if you would be so kind.

[Spuddles]

Some itemization tips:

If you want to wear armor and not worry about spell failure, twilight mithral chain is the way to go. I would put greater fortification on it, and maybe soulfire. A soulfire mithral buckler would also work, and save you a pittance in cash. Soulfire is from book of exalted deeds and protects vs negative energy attacks. Twighy is from PHB2 and reduces spell failure by 10%.

If your alignment is good, there is a bitchin spell in Book of exalted deeds that gives you the benefit of having a suit of fullplate that shines like the noonday sun, but has no drawbacks (other than glowing super bright). You would t want to use it when being sneaky, of course, but it can fit with your idea of donning armor in times of need.

You have enough gold to get like another +11 to your wisdom. Do that and pick up a monk's belt IF you use the armor spell option in book of exalted deeds. The spell is called luminous armor. Note that sacrfice costs, in this case str damage, are paid at the end of the spell. With a caster level in the 40s, you should be fine for almost two days. Then just heal it with a potion or whatever.

Put cross class ranks in use magic device. Getting to use the odd cleric or druid item is totally worth it.

Crafting an itelligent weapon at high levels is actually not a bad idea. Give it a property that bestows proficiency on the wielder (use sunsword as pricing guide), give it a special purpose and some baller spells, and the dancing property. This will give you extra actions in combat and let the sword swiny for you when you need to slay orcs but your arms are tired. Just make your sword with the idea that it will be a back up spellcaster with a much lower caster level, and you should do fine. Hell, you can afford to let it shoot fireballs at will. Wouldnt that be cool? CL10 fireballs won't do jack diddly vs that great wyrm, but they will mow through his underlings as you take on the wyrm.

Grab a ring of freedom of movement and a ring of evasion. Both of those can be very helpful, especially with superior resistance (spell from spell compendium) up.

[Urpriest]

Crafting an itelligent weapon at high levels is actually not a bad idea. Give it a property that bestows proficiency on the wielder (use sunsword as pricing guide), give it a special purpose and some baller spells, and the dancing property. This will give you extra actions in combat and let the sword swiny for you when you need to slay orcs but your arms are tired. Just make your sword with the idea that it will be a back up spellcaster with a much lower caster level, and you should do fine. Hell, you can afford to let it shoot fireballs at will. Wouldnt that be cool? CL10 fireballs won't do jack diddly vs that great wyrm, but they will mow through his underlings as you take on the wyrm.



In terms of gaining proficiency, the Skillful enchantment (Complete Arcane) treats you as having 3/4 BAB and proficiency with the enchanted weapon.

[ericp65]

Might as well post the sword's details. Good for laughs! Perhaps this blade is in need of an overhaul or replacement, as well...

Primary resource: 3.5e DMG.
Resource for sentience and "character details" - The Complete Book of Eldritch Might, by Monte Cook.

Plague Arcana
+6 holy flaming longsword, NG
STR 18
DEX 19
INT 18
WIS 16
CHA 18

EGO 33
HP 127
Hardness 22

Communication: whispers and telepathy
Languages: Common, elven, draconic, abyssal, drow elven, French (Darnelle was born in France, and uses French as a "secret" language among her closest friends), celestial.

Special Ability: Flaming Burst (blue-white flames)
Senses: Darkvision 120', blindsense, hearing, sight

Special Purpose: Defeat/slay evil arcane spellcasters
Dedicated Power: Contagion (mindfire or confidence crusher), heightened to 4th level.

Level 18/1 (one level of Wizard), Character Level 19
BAB +13/+8/+3, melee attack bonus +23/+18/+13
Saves: F +23, R +21, W +24

Feats: Animate Self, Attack, Empower Ability, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Ability Focus, Ability Penetratio, Quicken Ability, Weapon Enhancement Bonus (+5 -> +6), Iron Will

Skills: Sense Motive, Concentration, Decipher Script, Knowledge (arcana, planes), Spellcraft, Listen, Search, Spot, Appraise, Heal, Speak Language

Spells
(all cantrips)
Ray of enfeeblement, True strike, Magic missile, Resist planar alignment, Guilt, Margul, Touch of pain

Spell-like Abilities: Deathwatch, Cure moderate wounds, Magic circle against evil

[ericp65]

At present, Darnelle's ability scores are:

STR 13
DEX 18
CON 18
INT 40 32
WIS 21
CHA 18

That's without any gear.

Her standard gear:
Staff of Power
Plague Arcana (see previous post)
Dagger +3
Headband of epic intellect (+12)
Dragonhide mantle
Amulet of natural armor +9
Robe of the Archmagi (white)
Bracers of epic health +8
Gloves of epic DEX +10
Ring of epic wizardry IX
Ring of rescue (if HP reduced to 0, and wearer is on Toril, teleports wearer to a prepared bed enchanted to heal and allow wearer to rest)
Ring of epic protection +10
Boots of the winterlands

Some wands, staves, other rings, ioun stones, and mundane adventuring items.

Pretty craptastic, eh?

[ericp65]

Looks like Darnelle doesn't have enough feat "slots" available to take all the great suggestions :smallannoyed:

Here's what I've got so far, in order:

Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Cooperative Spell, Eschew Materials, Fell Drain, Leadership, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (evocation, abjuration), Greater Spell Focus (abjuration), Quicken Spell, Skill Focus (Knowledge (religion [Forgotten Realms]), Searing Spell, Epic Spellcasting, Enhance Spell, Multispell, Intensify Spell, Auto. Quicken Spell (x3), Improved Metamagic (x2), Multispell, Electric (Energy) Mage

That takes up all her feats through 36th character level, unless I goofed. Maybe there's something that would grant her additional feats? If it must remain as-is, she can always take the remaining feats as she advances in level.

Her XP total is 644K, so she should hit 37th level at 666K XP.

[ericp65]

Here's Darnelle's familiar, which might also do well with some tweaking:

Damian
Cat (black), magical beast
Neutral

Acquired when Darnelle was 13th level

STR 3
DEX 15
CON 10
INT 19
WIS 12
CHA 7

HD 13
HP 29

Attacks:
Claw (+10/+5, 1d2-4)
Bite (+7/+2, 1d3-4)

Saves:
F 6, R 8, W 9

SR 41

Feat: Weapon Finesse

Special qualities:
Alertness, Improved Evasion, Share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells, speak with master, speak with felines, SR, scry on familiar, Low-light Vision, scent, familiar spell

Damian wears a collar that's been enchanted to allow him to fly. If any of you have seen a TV series called "The Greatest American Hero," that's how he flies *L* He's cowardly, for the most part, and easily startled. Prefers to stay very close to Darnelle.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Looks like Darnelle doesn't have enough feat "slots" available to take all the great suggestions :smallannoyed:

Here's what I've got so far, in order:

Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Cooperative Spell, Eschew Materials, Fell Drain, Leadership, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Spell Focus (evocation, abjuration), Greater Spell Focus (abjuration), Quicken Spell, Skill Focus (Knowledge (religion [Forgotten Realms]), Searing Spell, Epic Spellcasting, Enhance Spell, Multispell, Intensify Spell, Auto. Quicken Spell (x3), Improved Metamagic (x2), Multispell, Electric (Energy) Mage

That takes up all her feats through 36th character level, unless I goofed. Maybe there's something that would grant her additional feats? If it must remain as-is, she can always take the remaining feats as she advances in level.

Her XP total is 644K, so she should hit 37th level at 666K XP.
The frog god's fane is a magical location that will grant knowledge religion for 3k wbl or something along those numbers, not sure if you accounted for that. Also, what class levels do you have I'm not sure of your final setup? Many classes grant bonus feats that you may not have accounted for. Also this is very cheesy but if you use heroics which grants you a temporary fighter feat and then embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos you can gain unlimited feats in exchange for 500 exp for casting the spells(I wouldn't use this).

Sorry if you accounted for the things I said, I'm just quickly posting something without looking too closely at your post I'm very busy atm I should really get off the forum.

[ericp65]

The frog god's fane is a magical location that will grant knowledge religion for 3k wbl or something along those numbers, not sure if you accounted for that. Also, what class levels do you have I'm not sure of your final setup? Many classes grant bonus feats that you may not have accounted for. Also this is very cheesy but if you use heroics which grants you a temporary fighter feat and then embrace the dark chaos and shun the dark chaos you can gain unlimited feats in exchange for 500 exp for casting the spells(I wouldn't use this).

Sorry if you accounted for the things I said, I'm just quickly posting something without looking too closely at your post I'm very busy atm I should really get off the forum.

Not familiar with frog god's fane, but I'm very interested now! I see it's in Complete Scoundrel, which I have, so I'm reading about it now.

Revised level progression:

1 - 5 Wizard ("Mage")
6 - 15 Mage of the Arcane Order
16 - 20 Archmage
21 - 27 Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
28 - 30 Evolved Human
31 - 36 Loremaster

I'll pass on the cheese ;)

[Seer_of_Heart]

You gain 3 feats from loremaster secrets unless you'd rather use one of the fairly lackluster secrets from the list. As the DM its up to you to allow flaws which typically are limited to 2 per character and grant a feat for each flaw taken. So you have 4 more feats if you use the frog god's fane to free up a feat and you gain 3 feats from loremaster.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm

[ericp65]

You gain 3 feats from loremaster secrets unless you'd rather use one of the fairly lackluster secrets from the list. As the DM its up to you to allow flaws which typically are limited to 2 per character and grant a feat for each flaw taken. So you have 4 more feats if you use the frog god's fane to free up a feat and you gain 3 feats from loremaster.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterFlaws.htm

I read that Frog God's Fane grants a bonus Skill Focus in Knowledge (history, nature, or religion). As Darnelle didn't have nature, I opted for that. Rolled the dice as appropriate. Heh, I spaced the feats from Loremaster! Just now saw that in my notes. I'll pick those momentarily.

I have no knowledge of flaws, so gotta look that up.

If it's at all useful, there has never been any information about Darnelle's father, and her mother never spoke to her about it. Probably irrelevant, but I don't think I mentioned it before.

[ericp65]

Almost there, I think...

Flaws added: Noncombatant, Vulnerable.

Bonus Feats added: Energy Gestalt (fire & electricity), Unraveling Mage, Creator Mage, Twin Spell, Sonic (Energy) Mage.

That might finish out Darnelle's feat selection, unless I've missed something else.

Her CHA isn't high enough for Epic Leadership (she doesn't own any items that increase STR, WIS, or CHA), but I'll still write up an underling for her who can serve as her master craftsperson, and then see about the item suggestions :)

[ericp65]

Wrote up a 16th level human Artificer for Darnelle's cohort, to handle her item crafting. DEX and INT both 18. All his feats are taken up by metamagic feats, Attune Magic Weapon, Skill Application (Craft (metal tools/trinkets), UMD), plus Extraordinary/Legendary/Exceptional Artisan. He'll remain an NPC, not an adventurer, and can probably also serve the Court Wizard of Bloodstone, who is a character I literally inherited from a friend who passed away.

Hopefully, this will suffice to produce Darnelle's suit of twilight mithral chain, with Greater Fortitude, Soulfire, Greater Luminous Armor, Celestial Brilliance, and Superior Resistance. Not sure if she'll need the Soulfire mithral buckler or not, but one never knows. Still have to sort out her rings as well.

[Spuddles]

A nearly ECL40 character should have tens of million in gold.

[Seer_of_Heart]

Make sure to use all the cost reduction methods possible from http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=7274.0 that handbook. Also you really should have an obscene amount of gold at level 36.

[Spuddles]

Unless you're spending gold on epic equipment (which, outside of a handful of things probably isn't worth it), I honestly wouldn't even bother accounting for what you purchase. I think you could have one of literally every listed item in the DMG and still have cash left over.

You can easily boost any stat you have by +11 (tome, +6 item), so epic leadership ought to be available.

Check out stronghold builder's guide. Pretty sweet supplement, despite some hilarious pricing problems (a moat costs more than a wall made out of adamantium? Wat?). You could give your cohort the landlord feat for some extra cash, though honestly, between an artificer cohort and two mid 30 level characters you have a truly obscene amount of wealth.

[ericp65]

Her gear, other than what I've mentioned, is hideously modest. Her personal finances are 2654 pp, 6460 gp, and 12 diamonds (4k gpv each). Highest stat bump is +12 from the headband of epic intellect. However, there's always the royal treasury...I'll make a few assumptions, now that everything is on paper :)

[Urpriest]

The Landlord feat and Epic Leadership are probably not worth it. Either this is an NPC, in which case she has whatever stronghold and followers the plot demands because they both are extra encounters in their own right, or this is a PC and it really depends on what the structure of the particular campaign is.

[ericp65]

Unless you're spending gold on epic equipment (which, outside of a handful of things probably isn't worth it), I honestly wouldn't even bother accounting for what you purchase. I think you could have one of literally every listed item in the DMG and still have cash left over.

You can easily boost any stat you have by +11 (tome, +6 item), so epic leadership ought to be available.

Check out stronghold builder's guide. Pretty sweet supplement, despite some hilarious pricing problems (a moat costs more than a wall made out of adamantium? Wat?). You could give your cohort the landlord feat for some extra cash, though honestly, between an artificer cohort and two mid 30 level characters you have a truly obscene amount of wealth.

Good deal. I do have that guidebook. I'll toss her a CHA-boosting item, and take epic leadership when she hits 38th character level. At 36th level, her wealth is supposed to be 8,800,000. I probably lost track after suiting her up with the items on her person. The only slots not filled are eyes, vest, and belt...but someone mentioned a Monk's Belt...I'll have to look that item up.

[ericp65]

The Landlord feat and Epic Leadership are probably not worth it. Either this is an NPC, in which case she has whatever stronghold and followers the plot demands because they both are extra encounters in their own right, or this is a PC and it really depends on what the structure of the particular campaign is.

She's a PC most often (like 95% of the time she sees play). Of course, once she abdicates the throne, she'll no longer have access to the stronghold, but she'll still have friends in high places. Her son will rule the kingdom, and she's on good terms with the Court Wizard, who heads the kingdom's arcane academy.

[Spuddles]

8.8 million gp is substantially less than I imagined, but still an awesomely large sum. Your artificer cohort can easily give you a 2.6 multiplier on that for most gear.


The Landlord feat and Epic Leadership are probably not worth it. Either this is an NPC, in which case she has whatever stronghold and followers the plot demands because they both are extra encounters in their own right, or this is a PC and it really depends on what the structure of the particular campaign is.

I'm honestly not sure how you measure "worth it" at level 36. Spend a million gold on a joke item? Sure, why not, you're basically a minor deity. You have enough tricks to get an arbitrary amount of anything.

[ericp65]

8.8 million gp is substantially less than I imagined, but still an awesomely large sum. Your artificer cohort can easily give you a 2.6 multiplier on that for most gear.

I'm honestly not sure how you measure "worth it" at level 36. Spend a million gold on a joke item? Sure, why not, you're basically a minor deity. You have enough tricks to get an arbitrary amount of anything.

That makes an additional 14.08M gp worth of gear available, by virtue of the artificer buddy, so that should cover the newer and cooler items :)

[ericp65]

I know, this scab will never heal if I keep picking at it *L*

Reviewing Darnelle's feat list, and reading the prereqs for the feats, I've noticed that I gave her about four feats too many.

At first level, the character creation process I follow for a human allows:
1 Regional Feat (FRCS) OR Background Trait OR Talent (AE);
2 from Mental & Physical Traits (IH);
1 Ceremonial Feat (AE);
1 Regular Feat (1st level character), General only
1 Bonus Feat (human)
2 Flaws -> 2 more Bonus Feats

That accounts for Eidetic Memory, Intelligent, Master of Lore, Energy Mage (fire), Fell Weaken, Arcane Mastery, Piercing Evocation, and Spell Focus (evocation).

One bonus feat at each even character level to 20th, and one bonus feat at each odd level from 21st on (18 total) adds: Energy Mage (sonic), Energy Gestalt (fire & electricity), Fell Drain, Skill Focus (Spellcraft), Unraveling Mage, Creator Mage, Spell Focus (evocation), Greater Spell Focus (evocation), Arcane Thesis (Orb of Fire), Quicken Spell, Cooperative Spell, Searing Spell, Epic Spellcasting, Enhance Spell, Multispell, Intensify Spell, Spell Mastery, and Improved Metamagic.

Frog God's Fane adds Skill Focus (Knowledge (nature)); swapping out three Secrets from Loremaster for three more feats adds Twin Spell, Multispell, and Energy Mage (electricity); three Bonus Feats from Evolved Human levels add Automatic Quicken Spell (x3); Bonus Metamagic Feats from Mage of the Arcane Order add Empower Spell and Maximize Spell; another class feature that adds a Bonus Feat finishes the list with Magical Aptitude.

Unless there's any way to add any more feats, I'll leave this as-is, and wait until level advancement grants the next Bonus Feats. I'd still like to give her Energy Substitution (cold), Leadership and/or Epic Leadership for her Artificer Cohort, Fell Frighten, Eschew Materials (possibly), and Skill Focus (Knowledge (religion, Forgotten Realms)).

So, given the unusual feat acquisition scheme here, is this character full up now, at 36th level?

[Zanos]

You can only gain each loremaster secret a single time, so the class is unfortunately limited to taking the bonus feat secret once.

EDIT: I forget if Incantatrix has been mentioned. The 3rd level ability is pretty cheesy, but otherwise it's a 10 level prestige class that grants 4 bonus metamagic feats and a free iteration of improved metamagic at level 10, which is excellent for blasters.

[Spuddles]

A cheesy way to get extra feats is using chaos shuffle and visiting a lot of magical locations that grant feats.

Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos from Fiendish Codex 1 are two level 8 spells. Embrace turns a feat into an abyssal heritor feat, shun turns an abyssal heritor feat into some other feat.

Arguably you could take Vow of Poverty for 13 bonus exalted feats, then shuffle them all away. A sane DM would rule that shuffling VoP away means you lose the 13 other feats.

You could also use Mirror Move (web enhancement) as a source of feat fuel, as well as Heroics (spell compendium).

[Zanos]

I just noticed you have Epic Spellcasting.

An excellent but not inherently broken use of Epic Spells is to give yourself very large stat boosts for ~1 week or so. You could craft a spell to give you +30/40 int for much cheaper than a +12 headband of intellect would be.

[ericp65]

You can only gain each loremaster secret a single time, so the class is unfortunately limited to taking the bonus feat secret once.

EDIT: I forget if Incantatrix has been mentioned. The 3rd level ability is pretty cheesy, but otherwise it's a 10 level prestige class that grants 4 bonus metamagic feats and a free iteration of improved metamagic at level 10, which is excellent for blasters.

Oh! I was confused about how to select secrets. I see now that what I'm doing is selecting Applicable Knowledge for all three Secrets. Are you saying that a given Secret can't be taken more than once?

I can't fit any more class levels into the build, and I don't want to tear it apart and redo it further. I can have her enter Incantatrix class when she advances again, though (she needs only 22K XP to hit 37th level).

[ericp65]

A cheesy way to get extra feats is using chaos shuffle and visiting a lot of magical locations that grant feats.

Embrace/Shun the Dark Chaos from Fiendish Codex 1 are two level 8 spells. Embrace turns a feat into an abyssal heritor feat, shun turns an abyssal heritor feat into some other feat.

Arguably you could take Vow of Poverty for 13 bonus exalted feats, then shuffle them all away. A sane DM would rule that shuffling VoP away means you lose the 13 other feats.

You could also use Mirror Move (web enhancement) as a source of feat fuel, as well as Heroics (spell compendium).

Yeah, the shuffling bit looks kinda nuts *L* I'll check out Mirror Move and Heroics, and see what I can work out with 'em, if anything. Nope, they grant feats that aren't in my character's best interest.

[ericp65]

I just noticed you have Epic Spellcasting.

An excellent but not inherently broken use of Epic Spells is to give yourself very large stat boosts for ~1 week or so. You could craft a spell to give you +30/40 int for much cheaper than a +12 headband of intellect would be.

I'm embarrassed to ask, but how exactly will that help in this case?

[Zanos]

Oh! I was confused about how to select secrets. I see now that what I'm doing is selecting Applicable Knowledge for all three Secrets. Are you saying that a given Secret can't be taken more than once?

I can't fit any more class levels into the build, and I don't want to tear it apart and redo it further. I can have her enter Incantatrix class when she advances again, though (she needs only 22K XP to hit 37th level).

Secret
At 1st level and every two levels higher than 1st (3rd, 5th, 7th, and 9th), the loremaster chooses one secret from the table below. Her loremaster level plus Intelligence modifier determines the secrets from which she can choose. She can’t choose the same secret twice.

I can't recall if this was changed by errata or was in the original printing, but the most recent version includes that(unfortunate) clause that you can't select the same secret, Applicable Knowledge in this case, more than once. If you used the frog god's fane as mentioned earlier to get the SF to enter the class you still come out a feat ahead, so it's still solid. Plus UMD is a class skill for loremaster. :smallamused:

[ericp65]

I can't recall if this was changed by errata or was in the original printing, but the most recent version includes that(unfortunate) clause that you can't select the same secret, Applicable Knowledge in this case, more than once. If you used the frog god's fane as mentioned earlier to get the SF to enter the class you still come out a feat ahead, so it's still solid. Plus UMD is a class skill for loremaster. :smallamused:

My eyes conveniently missed that last line in the description *L* OK, strike Multispell and Energy Mage (electricity) from Secrets; I'll choose two other Secrets and deal with feat acquisition later.

I still don't understand why the text mentions level plus INT modifier as the maximum number of Secrets obtainable, when above that it says a Secret is gained on the odd-numbered levels...unless they're accounting for Epic Loremaster levels.

[Zanos]

I'm embarrassed to ask, but how exactly will that help in this case?
As a wizard, I assume you understand the virtues of a high int score, so I believe you are talking about epic spellcasting itself?

That was just an aside. The epic cost multiplier for +stat items is very high, and it becomes cheaper and better to craft epic spells to replicate their effects. I'll see if I can throw something together.

Get Smart
Transmutation
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personal
Duration: 100 Hours
Subject gains a +30 enhancement bonus to intelligence for the duration of the spell.

Spellcraft DC: 17(base)+58(+29 bonus)+10(5x duration)-2(touch->personal) - 20(10 minute casting time)= 63

This costs 567,000 gp and 22,680 exp to develop. A headband of epic intellect +12 costs 1,444,000 and gives less than half the bonus.

The exp cost is less than desirable, but this can be mitigated further by other factors. You could, for example, include burning 2000 exp at casting for all of your epic spells and just use a rod of excellent magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rods.htm) to wave it away, giving you another 20 mitigation on the DC and reducing the costs further. You can repeat for other stats such as Con and Dex for HP and AC as desired.

You could also turn the spell into a ritual, but that can bring the Spellcraft DC down to 0, making the spell free and causing your DM to bludgeon you.


As for the loremaster thing, the secrets are tiered. The ones with higher numbers next to them are valued higher, and would usually require a higher Loremaster class level+int mod to obtain, but as a wizard your int mod is probably high enough that you can take the best secrets at level one anyway.

Rebuilding a character is a lot of work. Try not to get overwhelmed.

[ericp65]

As a wizard, I assume you understand the virtues of a high int score, so I believe you are talking about epic spellcasting itself?

That was just an aside. The epic cost multiplier for +stat items is very high, and it becomes cheaper and better to craft epic spells to replicate their effects. I'll see if I can throw something together.

Get Smart
Transmutation
Components: V,S
Casting Time: 10 minutes
Range: Personal
Duration: 100 Hours
Subject gains a +30 enhancement bonus to intelligence for the duration of the spell.

Spellcraft DC: 17(base)+58(+29 bonus)+10(5x duration)-2(touch->personal) - 20(10 minute casting time)= 63

This costs 567,000 gp and 22,680 exp to develop. A headband of epic intellect +12 costs 1,444,000 and gives less than half the bonus.

The exp cost is less than desirable, but this can be mitigated further by other factors. You could, for example, include burning 2000 exp at casting for all of your epic spells and just use a rod of excellent magic (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rods.htm) to wave it away, giving you another 20 mitigation on the DC and reducing the costs further. You can repeat for other stats such as Con and Dex for HP and AC as desired.

You could also turn the spell into a ritual, but that can bring the Spellcraft DC down to 0, making the spell free and causing your DM to bludgeon you.


As for the loremaster thing, the secrets are tiered. The ones with higher numbers next to them are valued higher, and would usually require a higher Loremaster class level+int mod to obtain, but as a wizard your int mod is probably high enough that you can take the best secrets at level one anyway.

Rebuilding a character is a lot of work. Try not to get overwhelmed.

I remember about creating epic spells (I had Darnelle create what I now consider a crappy epic spell some time ago). What I'm not connecting with is how increasing her INT will gain her any more feats. Clearly, I'm missing something here that should be obvious (?).

With an INT modifier of +11, she qualifies for any of the Secrets in the list, so that means she can choose anything on the list at the appropriate class level. The text description is misleading, as it suggests a Loremaster can select more than five Secrets, but the class progression indicates that the Loremaster can only ever learn five Secrets.

I'm surprised that sorting out feats would be the most difficult part of rebuilding a character (for me, at least)! Revising her skills will be cake, compared to this *L* Thank you for suffering my bone-headedness here.

[ericp65]

Would it make any difference that nothing about Darnelle's father has ever been determined? (Cruel kids called her "Darnelle the Fatherless" and worse during her youth) For all intents and purposes, she appeared to be fully human when she was born (and the character was created using the rules for a human). However, there's a possibility that her father was something else (her mother being a witch might have opened up some unusual possibilities). So, there could be some latent other-than-human bloodline there. If awakening such a bloodline would make it possible to squeeze in any additional feats, I'm open to her having an experience during her next adventure that would awaken the bloodline. Not just any feats, mind you, but those related to arcane magic/spellcasting. I'd have her cast Wish to get more, but that strikes me as too cheesy, and I prefer to go light on cheese.

[Zanos]

I remember about creating epic spells (I had Darnelle create what I now consider a crappy epic spell some time ago). What I'm not connecting with is how increasing her INT will gain her any more feats. Clearly, I'm missing something here that should be obvious (?).

With an INT modifier of +11, she qualifies for any of the Secrets in the list, so that means she can choose anything on the list at the appropriate class level. The text description is misleading, as it suggests a Loremaster can select more than five Secrets, but the class progression indicates that the Loremaster can only ever learn five Secrets.

I'm surprised that sorting out feats would be the most difficult part of rebuilding a character (for me, at least)! Revising her skills will be cake, compared to this *L* Thank you for suffering my bone-headedness here.
It's not about feats. You're a wizard.

More int = better. Sorry if I wasn't being clear. I was sort of talking about two different topics at the same time.

[ericp65]

It's not about feats. You're a wizard.

More int = better. Sorry if I wasn't being clear. I was sort of talking about two different topics at the same time.

No problem :) I get fixated on a single detail at times (like all the time)...

I couldn't be more clear on the need for high INT for a Wizard. It's the only ability score I've increased on this character with her character level advancement, and used a tome to raise it before (there also might have been a wish somewhere along the way, but I don't recall anymore). In converting and rebuilding, I may have accidentally short-changed her from how she was before, but I didn't want to arbitrarily tack a few more points onto INT without recalling how each increase was achieved. 32 INT should suffice for now, but still I'll put her through the process of creating that epic spell to get her smarter :)

[ericp65]

Now correcting skill points, and that should do it for Darnèlle's rebuild (that's how her name is properly written). Thanks very much for playing, playgrounders! :smallbiggrin: