[Pathfinder] Help me break my DM (He wants it!)

[Bobthe2nd]

So my DM issued a challenge to me and my friends this week, he is play testing a scenario that a mutual friend made up. Its called the Ragnarok engine basically its a 240 -240 block of death and destruction designed to go up against 5-6 Level 20 pc's.
He wants us to make a group of the most broken characters possible and go against this thing. we have heroic point buy stats, 880 000g and anything from any official pathfinder source (Other than the leadership feat). So what are some of your favorite min/maxed builds / item lists. Were going to be doing this at least 3 times and each time we need a different character build. Any suggestions?

[Squirrel_Dude]

What are the rules on templates, third party content (I assume none, but it's good to ask), crafting, and what do you know about the creatures/enemies you are facing?

Other questions: what are the assumptions about spells in a spell book for wizards? All, a full book, as your level-ups would allow for?

[Felandria]

If third party content is allowed, go for Godling.

It's an excellent third party class, it can be base or prestige.

Something like Sor10/Godling10 would do the trick.

Right now, my character is L25, Sor14/Bard1/Godling10, nearly 500 HP, she's disgustingly powerful.

Throw four Godlings at this machine and your DM will weep in a corner in the fetal position.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Is this only combat, or other challenges, too?

I would say you want at least one Half-Elf (or Human or Aasimar w/ Racial Heritage feat to count as Half-Elf) Oracle with Paragon Surge spell and Eldritch Heritage (arcane bloodline) feat. An Oracle with these can cast Paragon Surge to gain either Expanded Arcana (for Cleric) or Improved Eldritch Heritage (for Sorc/Wiz) and get access to ANY Cleric or Sorc/Wiz spell in the entire game, as needed.
Take the two traits that reduce metamagic costs down by a level for 1 spell, or even put your Spell Perfection (feat) on it so you can cheaply quicken it.

Such a character is the most versatile one you can get in PF. And he still has 9th level spells from the 2 main lists, so I'm sure one could find a lot of encounter-ending stuff, too.

[Bobthe2nd]

It is a combat only challenge and unfortunately there is no 3rd party content allowed.

template rules are pretty much if it is in the official pathfinder books and results in an ecl of 20 then it is good to go.

Crafting I am not sure of.

We don't know that much info on this thing that will try to destroy us. We do have forewarning that it is coming and therefore some time to prepare. Thanks for the good suggestions so far everyone, keep em coming!

[Keneth]

All templates result in ECL 20 since PF has no LA. You can just stack up like 10 of them and be a god. Hell, take 10 mythic tiers with that while you're at it. :smallconfused:

[137beth]

What is the environment for this thing? What kind of power does it have?

These are important:smallwink:
Oh, and POA solves most problems.

[Hyde]

I might recommend a 4-armed gargoyle with barbarian levels. (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monstersAsPCs.html)

[Raven777]

Arcane Bloodline Sorcerer with a Staff of Wish. You can craft such a Staff for pretty cheap. Fuel your Wishes with your own spell slots through Arcane Apotheosis and rock on.

[Carth]

This is a character I built and used in a game when the DM challenged us to break balance. It worked out very well.

Ifrit crossblooded sorcerer 20 (fire elemental and arcane bloodlines)

You'll be optimizing the spell geyser (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/geyser.html).

Charisma
17 base charisma
+2 from a planar bound dominated/charmed succubus
+6 enhancement bonus
+5 inherent bonus
+3 venerable (untyped bonus)
+5 from levels (untyped bonus)
+2 racial (ifrit)
+2 for the purposes of sorcerer abilities (additional ifrit racial ability)
Score of 42 and mod of 16 for the purposes of sorcerer abilities, otherwise a score of 40 and mod of 15.

Save DCs
15 level 5 spell
+2 heighten (untyped bonus)
+16 ability score modifier (untyped bonus)
+2 arcane bloodline level 15 ability (untyped bonus)
+1 arcane bloodline arcana (untyped bonus)
+1 familiar using wand of arcane concordance (enhancement bonus)
+8 elemental focus, greater elemental focus, spell focus, and greater spell focus, doubled by spell perfection (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/spell-perfection) (untyped bonuses)
45 save DC for geyser

Traits and feats
Trait: Havoc of the society
Trait: Reactionary
1: Noble scion
3: Elemental focus
5: Greater Elemental focus
7: Spell focus (bloodline)
7: Greater spell focus
9: Heighten spell
11: Persistent spell
13: Quicken spell
13: Improved initiative (bloodline)
15: Spell perfection
17: Improved familiar
19: Extend spell
19: Empower spell (bloodline)

Initiative
4 improved initiative (untyped bonus)
+4 ifrit alternate racial trait (racial bonus)
+2 reactionary (trait bonus)
+4 dueling (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/dueling) gauntlets (enhancement bonus)
+4 banner of the ancient kings (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/banner-of-the-ancient-kings) (circumstance bonus)
+1 dusty rose ioun stone (cracked) (competence)
+2 runeforge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/runeforged) the longspear holding up the banner (insight)
+15 charisma
+5 anticipate peril (lasts for 20 minutes, 40 if extended)
41 total initiative modifier

Improved familiar
Take a small air elemental as your improved familiar, and have it be your UMD wand minion and mount. If you cast permanent reduce person on yourself, cast ant haul on the elemental, and give it muleback cords, it will easily be able to carry you around on its back while using wands in its hands. You'll be able to take advantage of its 100' perfect fly speed, and keep all your actions to yourself while the elemental does all your moving for you, and activates wands too.

Casting geyser
Have your familiar activate its wand of arcane concordance (familiars and mounts act on your turn), and have it grant you silent, still, or extend spell for free on all spells that you cast. Cast geyser with heighten spell (something that increases casting time is needed to trigger arcane bloodline ability), making it use a 7th level slot, and add persistent spell via spell perfection, allowing you to limbo spell perfection's 9th level requirement. Then use a dazing rod to add the dazing spell metamagic. At level 20, the geyser will splash a lot of things with its water due to its large area. Because havoc of the society adds 1 force damage, only things immune to force damage (pretty much nothing?) will be able to avoid needing to make dual DC 45 will saves or be dazed for 5 rounds. You can also target a creature's reflex save instead if you make the geyser appear in the same square as they occupy.

Assuming they're dazed initially (basically nothing is immune to daze in PF, I think?), the geyser lasts as long as you concentrate, and then rounds per level even after you stop concentrating. So every round they're going to need to make another pair of saves or the daze duration will just reset back to 5 rounds. Thus you can basically keep them locked down while the force damage wears away at them, though it also does fire damage, so anything not immune to fire will go down before long. And of course, your allies are free to shoot up the foes you have trapped in the geyser, too.

Assuming no CL boosting, at level 20 geyser has a 50' radius and is SR: no, so you'll be able to hit large swathes of enemies. The geyser will last a minimum of 21 rounds (41 if you chose extend for arcane concordance), so if your enemies are very spread out it's safe to just stop concentrating on the first one and cast geyser again a second time. Assuming 2 geysers are all that's needed to lock everything down, it's a safe bet you'll be able to kill everything in 20 or 40 rounds. Otherwise you'll either need to just cast geyser again if you deem it necessary to keep them locked down.

Edit: changed a few things to boost the DC to 45

[grarrrg]

Gundolon (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12152413#post12152413)

That is all.

[Hyde]

I'm more impressed with Geysermancer.

[Squirrel_Dude]

All templates result in ECL 20 since PF has no LA. You can just stack up like 10 of them and be a god. Hell, take 10 mythic tiers with that while you're at it. :smallconfused:Well, his DM asked for it. :smallbiggrin:

Fun templates:
Advanced
Fiendish or Celestial
Half-Dragon
Half-Umbral Dragon
Graveknight
Lich
Two-Headed
Vampire (or for that matter, Dread Vampire)
Worm that Walks

If it has to be CR +0:
Terror Creature
Unhallowed Creature

Also, in terms of raw racial stats: Drow Noble ftw.

[Blyte]

without knowing more about this thing than its dimensions, it's pretty silly to create anything to take it on.

"so... you are staring at a Borg cube, what do you do adventurer!? what do you do!?"

it could easily be one of those stupid monsters immune to all spells except "spell X", and all that does is slow it for one round...

[TiaC]

Pick a powerful high-CR monster such as the Pleroma (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/aeon/aeon-pleroma) or the Draconal (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/agathion/agathion-draconal) or even the Rakshasa Maharaja (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/rakshasa/rakshasa-maharaja). Give them appropriate gear and proper spell and feat choices and you'll be pretty much done. The rules for monstrous characters state that you should "Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels"

[Squirrel_Dude]

Pick a powerful high-CR monster such as the Pleroma (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/aeon/aeon-pleroma) or the Draconal (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/agathion/agathion-draconal) or even the Rakshasa Maharaja (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/bestiary/monster-listings/outsiders/rakshasa/rakshasa-maharaja). Give them appropriate gear and proper spell and feat choices and you'll be pretty much done. The rules for monstrous characters state that you should "Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels"Of those, I vote Pleroma.

- You get a touch attack that deals an average of 90 damage, and you have reach so you can easily land it
- Flight
- 24 hit dice, and therefore 12 feats
- blindsight 120ft and trueseeing constant
- +12 bonus to all knowledge checks
- Fast Healing, SR, and plenty of immunities.
- To top it all off: Casts as a 20th level cleric.

[StreamOfTheSky]

And here i thought Geyser was a horrible spell... :smalleek:
EDIT: Nevermind, I see why Geyser is the perfect spell for dazing now. Unavoidable (weak) damage that repeats each round + big radius + no SR or way to use evasion to negate it. Nasty.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Hmm... are there any damage dealing, non mind-affecting spells at all in the school of enchantment?Looking through the d20pfsrd spell database...
There are only about 12 enchantment spells that aren't mind effecting, and none seem to do damage to the enemy.


Or a way to make a spell enchantment? *shrug* No idea.

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yeah, I didn't think so. Shame, Kitsune's favored class option for sorc could've added +5 DC to dazing spell shenanigans.

[Blyte]

sorry I think I was mistaken thinking the cube was some type of construct that the PCs were supposed to blast apart.

am I correct in now assuming, it is some type of vehicle your boarding party is supposed to take control of?

assuming that is true, operate as a necromancer utilizing "skin send", with contingency regenerate on your body (which lies up in a rope trick), should your skin die. then just pop your skin off again and greater teleport back to the party to rejoin the fight.

utilize a samsaran necro and cherry pick some witch/bard/summoner spells that are ridiculous. perhaps only go to level 19 wizard and take one level of dual bloodline (undead/plague) so you can dominate vermin and undead as well.

for whatever final showdown you might have, make sure you have a super high DC magic jar with all sorts of spell perfection crazy stank on it. wrest control of all sorts of nasty, and give them hell. keep the soul gem inside your party tank's gall bladder, and the rug that was your "body" when you cast the spell inside their back pack.

keep a ton of powerful undead/monsters/constructs as thralls of course and keep contingency teleportation circle back to where all your thralls are. have them spill through the teleportation circle for the big fight.

point is just keep a lot of outs and surprises for your enemies, and make death a non issue.

[Hyde]

If you're going to use the Monster CRs as ECL, I would point out that you're also supposed to get bonus levels every three regular character levels, until you've received half your original CR in bonus levels (Also, it's not on the page, but the ability scores given are for an average creature of its type, subtract 10 or 11 to get the racial ability score bonus for a "heroic" monster).

Anyhoo, So those CR 20s are nice, but you're missing the real pretty part. If you pick a monster that already casts like, say, a sorcerer, then any other sorcerer levels you get are additive.

This is where I'd like to direct you to a real juicy candidate- a monster whose CR is lower than it's casting level and just filled with nasty nasty powers, but alas Mind Flayers were never made OGL, and thusly are not Pathfinder Material.

Instead, I really like the Drider for this. The CL 6 is modest, but getting 3 extra levels of PC makes up for it (making you a level 22 caster at ECL 20).

CR 8 is the sweet spot- You get four bonus levels over the next 12 levels.

The Neh-Thalggu is a good take if you want something completely insane. You'd end up with a Caster Level of 23, provided all of your brains made it with you. And then there's the natural flight speed.

The Lamia Matriarch, however, is where it's at. That Charisma score with a final CL of 22 is pretty slick, and adding the Cleric Spell List to your own is nothing to scoff at.

[Carth]

Yeah, I didn't think so. Shame, Kitsune's favored class option for sorc could've added +5 DC to dazing spell shenanigans.

Yep, trust me, I looked. :smallbiggrin: Incidentally, I tweaked a few things to get it up to DC 45. There are no published monsters in PF with a save bonus of high enough to succeed on anything but dual 20s (I think?). This makes me wonder what the highest save bonuses that are achievable with class levels are (While still being a credible threat in combat).

[Hyde]

Yep, trust me, I looked. :smallbiggrin: Incidentally, I tweaked a few things to get it up to DC 45. There are no published monsters in PF with a save bonus of high enough to succeed on anything but dual 20s (I think?). This makes me wonder what the highest save bonuses that are achievable with class levels are (While still being a credible threat in combat).

I have an immortal paladin. AC 56-67, saves are all +40s.

The "threat" is really just that you're not going to hurt him while he very slowly takes away your hit points. He's not pure PF, though.

[Carth]

How relevant are the non-PF/non-1st party components to saves?

[Hyde]

Hmm... about 20% directly, and maybe an additional 10% indirectly.

[CIDE]

Is this only combat, or other challenges, too?

I would say you want at least one Half-Elf (or Human or Aasimar w/ Racial Heritage feat to count as Half-Elf) Oracle with Paragon Surge spell and Eldritch Heritage (arcane bloodline) feat. An Oracle with these can cast Paragon Surge to gain either Expanded Arcana (for Cleric) or Improved Eldritch Heritage (for Sorc/Wiz) and get access to ANY Cleric or Sorc/Wiz spell in the entire game, as needed.
Take the two traits that reduce metamagic costs down by a level for 1 spell, or even put your Spell Perfection (feat) on it so you can cheaply quicken it.

Such a character is the most versatile one you can get in PF. And he still has 9th level spells from the 2 main lists, so I'm sure one could find a lot of encounter-ending stuff, too.

I looked through the stuff listed. Maybe I'm just misundetstanding/misreading or missing something but I don't get how it does what you say it does.

Not that I don't believe you. Just...I don't see it immediately.

[Gazzien]

I have an immortal paladin. AC 56-67, saves are all +40s.

The "threat" is really just that you're not going to hurt him while he very slowly takes away your hit points. He's not pure PF, though.

My HD9 LA+1 summoner has saves of +32-+35, and an AC of 46. (44 touch, 29 flat-footed).

Synesthesiest Summoners are silly! (Especially when you combine them with two levels of Paladin for saves.) And he's pure PF...

Crazy, crazy immunities, as well, combined with no need to sleep + Harness of Eidolon-something-or-other that lets me burn SMX uses to prevent Banishment/etc... nigh-invulnerable.

But similarly, almost-no damage.

[grarrrg]

I looked through the stuff listed. Maybe I'm just misundetstanding/misreading or missing something but I don't get how it does what you say it does.

Not that I don't believe you. Just...I don't see it immediately.

There's one small problem with what he wrote: you can't pick 2 of the same 'type' of Trait. But that's "ok", cause the Spell Perfection trick still works.


Anywho, here's how it works:

Paragon Surge is a 3rd level spell, "For the duration of the spell, you...are treated as if you possessed any one feat for which you meet the prerequisites"
It's a Half-Elf only spell, duration is 1 minute/caster level.

So for a Standard action you can get ANY feat you qualify for, we are concerned with 2 feats in particular
Expanded Arcana can add any 1 spell from your class List to your Known spells (or any 2 if they are lower than the highest level you can cast).
This feat can get you ANY Cleric/Oracle spell.

The other feat is a little trickier, you must first have the Eldritch Heritage feat, choosing the "Arcane Bloodline" from Sorcerer. You use Paragon Surge to gain the feat "Improved Eldritch Heritage", this gets you the 9th level bloodline ability "New Arcana (Ex): At 9th level, you can add any one spell from the sorcerer/wizard spell list to your list of spells known..."


So, for the cost of some feats (Skill Focus and Eldritch Heritage) you can use a 3rd level spell slot and a Standard action to gain (almost) ANY spell EVER on your Spontaneous casting list (or a 7th-ish level slot and a Swift Action).
For the cost of a few more feats, you can have Spell Perfection and use a 3rd level slot as a Swift action.

[StreamOfTheSky]

There's one small problem with what he wrote: you can't pick 2 of the same 'type' of Trait. But that's "ok", cause the Spell Perfection trick still works.

The two traits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage) that reduce metamagic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/wayang-spellhunter-minata) cost by 1 level are in different trait categories, so no problem there. There is a rule for trait bonuses not stacking, but since neither level reduction is a trait bonus or labeled as any sort of bonus/penalty, I think RAW they do stack.

And Paragon Surge is 3rd level or lower, as per the 2nd trait's restriction. So even without Spell Perfection, you could quicken it for only +2 levels.

(In case you haven't noticed yet, the trait categorizations have no rhyme or reason and are total bs. A metamagic trait in regional and not magic; a trait to gain uncanny dodge and another to use a blade nonlethally both in religion and not combat....)

[Hyde]

Oddly, it seems like if you took a level of sorcerer, it'd kind of ruin everything.

I don't suppose there's a way to get this trick going at a lower level?

[grarrrg]

The two traits (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/magic-traits/magical-lineage) that reduce metamagic (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/wayang-spellhunter-minata) cost by 1 level are in different trait categories, so no problem there. There is a rule for trait bonuses not stacking, but since neither level reduction is a trait bonus or labeled as any sort of bonus/penalty, I think RAW they do stack.

I stand corrected.


(In case you haven't noticed yet, the trait categorizations have no rhyme or reason and are total bs. A metamagic trait in regional and not magic; a trait to gain uncanny dodge and another to use a blade nonlethally both in religion and not combat....)

So only slightly worse than "Combat Feat" vs. "General" then?


Oddly, it seems like if you took a level of sorcerer, it'd kind of ruin everything.

Hows that?


I don't suppose there's a way to get this trick going at a lower level?

Not really. You can only really use this trick on a Spontaneous Caster, meaning Oracle/Sorcerer only (it's not on the Bard or Summoner list, but those are horrible choices for this anyway). And between the two classes, Oracles get it a spell level lower, and Divine has easier access to Arcane than the other way around.

You can do a "divine spell only" version starting at level 6 of Oracle.
Improved Eldritch Heritage requires 11th level.
Spell Perfection is 15 ranks in Spellcraft, so 15th level.

[Hyde]

maybe it wouldn't. I was just thinking that taking a level of sorcerer would make the eldritch thing default to the sorcerer spell list, but I guess there's no rule saying you couldn't add it to your Oracle spell list anyway... As worded, Expanded Arcana could act as a bypass. Take a level of Sorc so that your "class list" is two lists and add one spell from your sorcerer class list to your spells known- but it doesn't really specify which "spells known" that has to be.

I doubt you'll find anyone who would allow it- I don't even buy it myself. But it seemed funny.

Anyway, The effects of this thing aren't permanent, are they? Once Paragon wears off, the feat goes, and when the feat goes, wouldn't the spell?

[grarrrg]

Anyway, The effects of this thing aren't permanent, are they? Once Paragon wears off, the feat goes, and when the feat goes, wouldn't the spell?

Correct, the point is that for a Swift action and a Spell slot (ideally a 3rd level), you can have ANY Cleric/Oracle/Sorcerer/Wizard spell EVER.

It's the "ultimate Batman" type thing.
You are essentially prepared for ANY situation, as you can grab (almost) ANY spell.

[CIDE]

It only gets you those spells during the spell's duration, correct?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Yes, only during the duration.

So you burn 3rd level slots to gain nearly any spell in the entire game on the spot for use.

You don't really need them permanently, the only thing you can't do with the spell is mimick spells with like an hour long casting time or something.

[CIDE]

Yes, only during the duration.

So you burn 3rd level slots to gain nearly any spell in the entire game on the spot for use.

You don't really need them permanently, the only thing you can't do with the spell is mimick spells with like an hour long casting time or something.


Wouldn't work for crafting, would it?

[StreamOfTheSky]

Unlikely, but when it comes to spellcasting and the possibilities, I wouldn't rule anything out completely.

I have no idea how you could do it, though. Perhaps with that ring that makes a personal spell last all day, before paizo did the right thing and nerfed it into the ground (now it only works on spells with fairly long durations already).