A Star Wars III "What if" Scenario

[Empedocles]

So today, I re-watched The Revenge of the Sith, and found myself really enjoying the second half of the film - right when Order 66 gets issued, I thought the movie was actually...good.

But anyways, it got me thinking: what if Anakin had died on Mustafar? Everything else up to that point, including Yoda failing to kill Palpatine, stayed the same. But when Anakin is cut down, Obi-Wan finishes him off. What would the rest of the saga have looked like?

EDIT: Alternatively say neither Anakin nor Obi-Wan die on Mustafar. Anakin senses his master's death and panics, leaving the fight. So you have a potential shadow war type thing between Anakin and Obi-Wan, while the Senate tries desperately to maintain control even though it has no capacity to do so. The Jedi are made into villains. Padme still dies, but the children don't have to be hidden to the same extent. Maybe Obi-wan raises them?

[Traab]

So today, I re-watched The Revenge of the Sith, and found myself really enjoying the second half of the film - right when Order 66 gets issued, I thought the movie was actually...good.

But anyways, it got me thinking: what if Anakin had died on Mustafar? Everything else up to that point, including Yoda failing to kill Palpatine, stayed the same. But when Anakin is cut down, Obi-Wan finishes him off. What would the rest of the saga have looked like?

Probably about the same. Palpatine would have found another apprentice to train, but I dont think vader had that much of a unique impact on galactic history. So chances are Darth Vader II would have been the one finding the officers lack of faith. . . disturbing. Also, the twist of episode 5 wouldnt have been "I am your father." It would have been, "Darth Vader didnt kill your father, OBI WAN killed your father!"

[Olinser]

Probably about the same. Palpatine would have found another apprentice to train, but I dont think vader had that much of a unique impact on galactic history. So chances are Darth Vader II would have been the one finding the officers lack of faith. . . disturbing. Also, the twist of episode 5 wouldnt have been "I am your father." It would have been, "Darth Vader didnt kill your father, OBI WAN killed your father!"

Which is funny, because that's the line that the actor in Vader's suit actually said when they were filming Empire Strikes Back. They purposefully only told Mark Hamill on the set what the REAL line was going to be so the secret wouldn't leak out.

Throughout history, Palpatine had quite a few agents and apprentices that were trained in varying degrees - Darth Maul, Darth Tyranus, Mara Jade, Lumiya, and a few other agents that were featured in just 1 or 2 books because they weren't that important. None of them ever replaced Vader, or were replaced WITH Vader, because nobody could match his power, his drive, or his ruthlessness.

[Mando Knight]

Also, the twist of episode 5 wouldnt have been "I am your father." It would have been, "Darth Vader didnt kill your father, OBI WAN killed your father!"
Which is, according to behind-the-scenes features, the "original" twist, the one that was recorded live by David Prowse (to stop leaks of the "real" twist). If I remember correctly, anyways.

[Kitten Champion]

Well, to start I'd be even more pissed off with the prequels for wasting my time with all that mind-numbing character development of a "good" knight turned black through his overbearing attachment to people he "loves". While my dislike of the movies would be better stated in essay format, there was an attempt at something resembling a character arc that has significance in the larger scheme of things that justifies its existence.

As to a Vader-less original trilogy. Traab's probably right, based on the logic of the Sith, you'd have a different main villain. One with a weaker emotional impact on Luke, and thus the viewer. Although I couldn't speculate on how'd this theoretical Darth Whoever would react to Luke, seeing as Vader spent most of his time trying to coerce him into a coup d'etat against the Emporer and wasn't trying to genuinely kill him. Also, it's a crap-shoot how Return of the Jedi would've ended without the face heel turn and sacrificial last act.

[Tiki Snakes]

Well, the least disruptive to the timestream answer, in such a what-if scenario and given certain themes and Expanded-Universe sillyness seems quite clear to me.

You get the end of film revelation* that Darth Vader is the name of the partially failed clone of the dead Anakin Skywalker, installed as Palpatine's second in command and scourge of the Jedi Order, his moral ambiguity further submerged behind additional questions of identity/what makes a man and with his heel-face turn and affection for Luke being in retrospect even more potentially remarkable.


*Actually, I'd probably switch it up so that the death-of-anakin scene comes much earlier in the film, with the latter part being the clone Darth Vader emerging onto the galactic scene and begining to hunt down the Jedi.

[Traab]

Well, to start I'd be even more pissed off with the prequels for wasting my time with all that mind-numbing character development of a "good" knight turned black through his overbearing attachment to people he "loves". While my dislike of the movies would be better stated in essay format, there was an attempt at something resembling a character arc that has significance in the larger scheme of things that justifies its existence.

As to a Vader-less original trilogy. Traab's probably right, based on the logic of the Sith, you'd have a different main villain. One with a weaker emotional impact on Luke, and thus the viewer. Although I couldn't speculate on how'd this theoretical Darth Whoever would react to Luke, seeing as Vader spent most of his time trying to coerce him into a coup d'etat against the Emporer and wasn't trying to genuinely kill him. Also, it's a crap-shoot how Return of the Jedi would've ended without the face heel turn and sacrificial last act.

Honestly, that could just as easily flow with Empy ordering darth whoever to capture and not kill him. While he wouldnt have the family angle, he would still be able to pull the, "Look, you are powerful, I am powerful, join me and we can take out the emperor just like your rebellion wants, and we can take his place!" If you wanted a stronger twist, have obiwan survive meeting the emperors new apprentice, then in movie 5 darth anonymous breaks the horrible news, Obiwan, lukes trusted teacher and friend, HE killed lukes father! Huge drama, huge potential for temptation into the dark side. "I can help you get revenge on the traitor who murdered your father!"

[Empedocles]

...so I guess the effects wouldnt be so dramatic, huh? :smallannoyed:

Well what if Palpatine had been killed by Yoda, but Anakin survived as Vader? It's not like the Jedi could just reappear - they'd have been branded traitors for murdering Palpatine anyways.

[Traab]

...so I guess the effects wouldnt be so dramatic, huh? :smallannoyed:

Well what if Palpatine had been killed by Yoda, but Anakin survived as Vader? It's not like the Jedi could just reappear - they'd have been branded traitors for murdering Palpatine anyways.

How would anakin have survived? He only made it because palpatine sensed he lived and came to rescue him. he likely would have died in short order back on mustafar. Maybe he was able to pull off that last move and killed obiwan? Then the situation would be total chaos. Anakin had no official standing to rule, noone did. It would have degenerated into a massive civil war most likely. Palpatine had just declared himself the ultimate ruler like 12 hours ago. MAYBE things would have settled back down into the endless bureaucracy of the republic but i dunno. But yeah, jedi would have likely been ruined for a long time. It might have been straightened out over time, the jedi did have numerous allies in the senate, and several who knew what had actually happened, but most of them would still have been dead.

*EDIT* Now Padme and her kids are a different matter. there is no telling how THAT would have played out. Dead wife, living kids? Would she have survived if he was there and repentant? Would he have gone full on sith with the emperor gone? No way to guess really.

[Empedocles]

Say...neither Anakin nor Obi-Wan die on Mustafar. Anakin senses his master's death and panics, leaving the fight. So you have a potential shadow war type thing between Anakin and Obi-Wan, while the Senate tries desperately to maintain control even though it has no capacity to do so. The Jedi are made into villains. Padme still dies, but the children don't have to be hidden to the same extent. Maybe Obi-wan raises them?

[Kitten Champion]

Honestly, that could just as easily flow with Empy ordering darth whoever to capture and not kill him. While he wouldnt have the family angle, he would still be able to pull the, "Look, you are powerful, I am powerful, join me and we can take out the emperor just like your rebellion wants, and we can take his place!" If you wanted a stronger twist, have obiwan survive meeting the emperors new apprentice, then in movie 5 darth anonymous breaks the horrible news, Obiwan, lukes trusted teacher and friend, HE killed lukes father! Huge drama, huge potential for temptation into the dark side. "I can help you get revenge on the traitor who murdered your father!"

Yeah, that could work. I don't think it would be as interesting thematically seeing as we the audience and Luke never know his father in the first place, but you'd only have to move a few pieces to get everyone where they need to be for the original trilogy to look pretty much the same.

You'd still have to kill the Emperor, I suppose Darth anonymous - knowing that the emperor intends to replace him with Luke, who's got a lot longer life ahead of him and more potential - decides to whack the old man first. The story ends less on a redemptive note that "love conquers hate" and more like "evil leads inherently to its own demise" but it would still work. They'd only need to make him more straightforward in his loyalty to the Emperor to have the betrayal be more profound, rather than suggesting they overthrow him in every conversation.

[Emperor Ing]

One of the biggest problems with Ep. 3 is the opening sequence. Don't get me wrong the space battle is totally awesome. And although the ships are fighting at unrealistically close ranges, that doesn't really bother me. What bothers me is the opening is unrealistic to the movie.

In anything, a movie, video game, book, or any sort of storytelling, the opening sequence sets the theme, tone, and mood of the story. In between the Battle of Utapau and Grievous' ship crash-landing on Coruscant, there's an ecksbawks hueg gap. The fact that Lucas chooses to fill it with whiny Anakin (hey, nobody said the character was inconsistent :smalltongue:) and generally uninteresting, and at times poorly written dialogue with very little to establish any theme or foreshadowing it's just a mistake.

One thing that I think could have made Ep. 3 more impressive would be to show hints of what was foreshadowed in Episode 1. Anakin is supposed to have an insanely high midichlorian count, meaning he's going to be if not one of the, then the number one most powerful Force user ever. We can start to get hints of that. When Obi-Wan and Anakin are crashing into Coruscant we see Anakin on the bridge, unsure, but he starts to remember what Qui-Gon told him before the pod race, trust in the force and all will be well. With this in mind he takes a meditative stance, and suddenly the half-a-capital-ship starts doing wierd things like defying gravity as its descent mysteriously slows , rights its falling trajectory so instead of nose-diving it will land flat, and lands otherwise safely. You can hear radio chatter in the background where everyone's confused about why the ship is moving around oddly. And Obi-Wan, having actually BEEN inside the ship, is totally confused by what just happened, but we cut to Anakin surrounded by floating debris, which suddenly falls as his concentration is broken by Obi-Wan calling to him. Which also causes the whole ship to jerk slightly, sending the two of them sprawling.

This is a good note to end the introductory sequence on. While we know what happened, it's still a mystery to us as to why this one Jedi was able to control half a capital ship, and certainly a mystery to all the other characters who are like "Whoa! Did Anakin really just do that?" Plus, that whole sequence would kind of remind us of... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_QcRPNfUuE) Furthermore it makes Anakin feel more important, which would make Palpatine palling around with him seem at least seem more suspicious.

Anyways these are just my thoughts.

[Jayngfet]

Probably about the same. Palpatine would have found another apprentice to train, but I dont think vader had that much of a unique impact on galactic history. So chances are Darth Vader II would have been the one finding the officers lack of faith. . . disturbing. Also, the twist of episode 5 wouldnt have been "I am your father." It would have been, "Darth Vader didnt kill your father, OBI WAN killed your father!"

This is likley the truth. Most of Anakins real unique actions were during the prequel trilogy and Palpatine ALWAYS has backup apprentices ready.

Depending on their level of skill they may have died before the trilogy or early on, or killed Luke and co. at some point. We really can't know without a specific set of abilities, history, and power level.

[Empedocles]

I edited the OP with an additional question, that I think impacts the trilogy more then the one about Vader.

[Aotrs Commander]

Probably the most likely consequence would be that Vader wouldn't have been in charge at Endor - which would likely have meant a bigger loss for the Empire if Palpatine had a less competant Sith apprentice in his place. Luke might have been killed, though more likely, no-one apart from Vader would have even noticed his presense to go down to Endor in the first place. Palpatine would likely have died with the Death Star either way.

If Palpatine had ended up leaving Endor in charge of someone with more naval skill and/or slightly less arrogance, the rebels might not have succeeded. (Though it's likely that Zaarin's rebellion would still have gone ahead, meaning that Thrawn - who would almost certainly have changed the course of the battle - would still most likely have been absent.)

[kitep]

If Vader had died, I think things would have remained pretty much the same ... right up to the time when Vader killed the Emperor. Instead, Luke would have died, the rebel force would have died, and the Empire would keep going.

What if the clone army had been clones of Vader instead of Jango Fett? :eek:

[Aotrs Commander]

If Vader had died, I think things would have remained pretty much the same ... right up to the time when Vader killed the Emperor. Instead, Luke would have died, the rebel force would have died, and the Empire would keep going.

Well, no, not really. Luke had no impact on the shield generator mission and indeed it would have gone far better if he had been there; it was only his connection to Vader that made Vader even glance at the shuttle and thus cause him to go planetside to pick Luke up and endanger the mission. No Vader would probably have meant Luke would have spent the battle planetside and the Rebels would have knocked out the shield generator more easily (maybe even sooner, and thus saving the rebels cruiser casualties).

And Vader had no impact on the battle. So sans Vader, the Death Star - and the Emperor - would likely have been lost; unless the person who was in Vader's place was a much better military commander than Vader was. (And brutal honestly, with Thrawn out dealing with Zaarin, Vader might have been the best of the rest, distrubingly.)

[Kitten Champion]

What did Vader actually do that couldn't be done by a generic imperial commander? He only did two things I can think of, kill Obi-Wan and the Emperor.

I think the Emperor would've died anyways, I have little respect for his competency post-prequels.

What Obi-Wan's survival would mean for the narrative is a far more challenging proposition. Would he have continued Luke's training? Or would something else have happened to him? It's kind of like asking what would've happened if Ben Parker survived, he's one of the ducks you need in a row to ensure a proper character arc, but from an in-universe perspective, perhaps his survival would've made everything better for the protagonist. Although I'm sure the Ben Parker possibility has been tried.

Vader is a cool-looking character with marketability, but people like Lucas vastly overestimate his importance in the story. He's got more of an impact as a symbolic figure to Luke in his quest for enlightenment than as an enemy for the rebellion.

[Traab]

It also doesnt hurt that he is voiced by james earl jones. Dude makes every role epic just by speaking.

[Olinser]

What did Vader actually do that couldn't be done by a generic imperial commander? He only did two things I can think of, kill Obi-Wan and the Emperor.

I think the Emperor would've died anyways, I have little respect for his competency post-prequels.

What Obi-Wan's survival would mean for the narrative is a far more challenging proposition. Would he have continued Luke's training? Or would something else have happened to him? It's kind of like asking what would've happened if Ben Parker survived, he's one of the ducks you need in a row to ensure a proper character arc, but from an in-universe perspective, perhaps his survival would've made everything better for the protagonist. Although I'm sure the Ben Parker possibility has been tried.

Vader is a cool-looking character with marketability, but people like Lucas vastly overestimate his importance in the story. He's got more of an impact as a symbolic figure to Luke in his quest for enlightenment than as an enemy for the rebellion.

He was COMPETENT. Ruthlessly efficient, as a matter of fact.

Admiral Ozzel pretty clearly demonstrates the average caliber of officer that the Empire had to work with (outliers like Thrawn nonwithstanding).

It's the same problem that every tyrant has. You choose between 2 traits: Loyalty and competence. Over-competent subordinates are competent enough to start wondering why they need to take orders from you anymore.

Vader was both ruthlessly efficient, and loyal to the Emperor (up until Luke showed up).

[Kitten Champion]

He was COMPETENT. Ruthlessly efficient, as a matter of fact.

Admiral Ozzel pretty clearly demonstrates the average caliber of officer that the Empire had to work with (outliers like Thrawn nonwithstanding).

It's the same problem that every tyrant has. You choose between 2 traits: Loyalty and competence. Over-competent subordinates are competent enough to start wondering why they need to take orders from you anymore.

Vader was both ruthlessly efficient, and loyal to the Emperor (up until Luke showed up).

A lot of this competency must've happened in the books, since he mostly seemed to be running on the apparently valid premise that everyone in the universe were morons in the prequels. In the original trilogy I assumed his defeat was meant to be unlikely, the less I knew about his rise to power the more I could have assumed he was awesome - like The Lord Ruler in Mistborn - but actually seeing it kind of disillusioned me.

[Olinser]

A lot of this competency must've happened in the books, since he mostly seemed to be running on the apparently valid premise that everyone in the universe were morons in the prequels. In the original trilogy I assumed his defeat was meant to be unlikely, the less I knew about his rise to power the more I could have assumed he was awesome - like The Lord Ruler in Mistborn - but actually seeing it kind of disillusioned me.

Yeah, Anakin Skywalker was a whiny incompetent that was good in a close-in fight.

Vader, on the other hand, was a ruthlessly efficient tyrant that killed at the drop of a hat. There is a reason everybody in the universe crapped their pants at his presence.

Episodes IV-VI were really the first major victories the rebellion had.

The only reason the rebellion was having any success at all was simply because Vader couldn't be everywhere at once (and they retconned it to Vader's apprentice STARTING the whole thing). That's when the cracks in Palpatine's Empire started to show. His average commanders were loyal to him, but they didn't have the initiative to nip local rebellions before they started, and didn't have the competency to get rid of them even if they WANTED to.

[Kitten Champion]

Yeah, Anakin Skywalker was a whiny incompetent that was good in a close-in fight.

Vader, on the other hand, was a ruthlessly efficient tyrant that killed at the drop of a hat. There is a reason everybody in the universe crapped their pants at his presence.

Episodes IV-VI were really the first major victories the rebellion had.

The only reason the rebellion was having any success at all was simply because Vader couldn't be everywhere at once (and they retconned it to Vader's apprentice STARTING the whole thing). That's when the cracks in Palpatine's Empire started to show. His average commanders were loyal to him, but they didn't have the initiative to nip local rebellions before they started, and didn't have the competency to get rid of them even if they WANTED to.

Oh, I meant the Emperor, poor reading comprehension on my part. I guess no one quite comes off well enough in the prequels so that I could be referring to anyone.

There's a lot we don't see in the Original Trilogy, which was fine since what they left mysterious generally helped the tone, but it makes theoretical questions difficult for someone who hasn't read the EU since grade school.

[snoopy13a]

This will be a little long (and stupid).

Vader's suit was constructed by a government contractor called ACME Sith Gear, Inc. Towards the end of the Clone War, ACME Sith Gear, Inc. was in danger of going out of business. Just before declaring bankruptcy, their company was saved by a last-minute order to construct a life-support suit for Darth Vader.

The company was saved! ACME Sith Gear, Inc. continued to pay regular dividends. Among its many shareholders was Wicket the Ewok on the Forest Moon of Endor. Wicket decided to save the paid dividends to buy a spear.

After purchasing a spear, Wicket could go hunting. While hunting, Wicket came across Princess Leia. The rest is history.

If Vader had died, then ACME Sith Gear, Inc. would have gone out-of-business and Wicket the Ewok would not have been able to buy a spear. Without a spear, Wicket would not have met Princess Leia that day. Without the aid of the Ewoks, the Rebels would have lost the Battle of Endor.