Bending the rules as a DM

[Jeff the Green]

My players stay out, please.

I'm running Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and so far one NPC has died due to taint (a priest named Danovich) and a player has disappeared, leaving me to kill off her character (Komori). I'm thinking about bending the rules slightly to let me reintroduce both of them as minor villains in a little while.

When a character dies of corruption (the physical form of taint), they rise some time later as an undead. The PCs didn't know that, but for other reasons burned the body. I'm thinking that that won't actually stop the formation of the undead, just make them skeletal (since bones don't burn).

Komori has a feat that makes her immune to taint. It hadn't come up in character, so I'm thinking of stripping it from her, giving her enough depravity to go insane, and then giving her a couple levels of maho-tsukai. Then in a little while, she'd meet up with Danovich and terrorize the town a bit until the players stop them.

Would either of these ideas bother you as a player?

[Roog]

If I knew about the feat (whether it had come up in game, or not) it would definitely bother me.

[Squirrel_Dude]

If I knew about the feat (whether it had come up in game, or not) it would definitely bother me.Same here.

Also, bones do burn, just not down to ashes. There might be enough for a skeleton but it would be really fragmented if there was.

[JoshuaZ]

The taint corruption thing would bother me given how the feat is supposed to work. For the other case, with just burning you could maybe take the form of some incorporeal undead?

[Palanan]

If I understand what you're saying, the PC had a particular feat which was central to the character--and potentially pivotal to this particular campaign--which you're now thinking of removing because it doesn't quite suit your plans?

If that's the case, I'd say you're better off developing a different NPC villain. As a DM, this is the sort of thing I would find hard to reconcile.

And as noted above, bones do burn, depending on the temperature of the fire; at the very least they'd be brittle and compromised. Does it specify what sort of undead they become? A horribly burned ghost should be dramatic enough.

[ironwizard]

Using old/discarded/dead PCs as villains? Cool, I like it. From a players perspective, it makes the whole world a little bit more dangerous and a little bit scarier.

Re-tooling a character to force him/her into a villain's shoes? If the player is ok with it. Now in this situation you can't ask the player, so I'd default to no. (That said, there are a million other reasons someone might become a villain, so your plan isn't out per se, just needs some tweaking.

[Jeff the Green]

If I understand what you're saying, the PC had a particular feat which was central to the character--and potentially pivotal to this particular campaign--which you're now thinking of removing because it doesn't quite suit your plans?

I wouldn't say it's central to her character. It's handy, since she's from Rokugan and has been brought to Ravenloft, but she hasn't encountered any taint other than the 1/day easy Will/Fort saves. Also, no longer a PC. The player disappeared and now she's an NPC.

[Nettlekid]

If the player isn't going to come back and see her character effectively desecrated (by the DM, not by taint forces) then I think it would be...okay? But I'm not crazy about it either way. If the player is going to come back and roll up a new character at some point, I say definitely don't. It's just not cool to change any part of someone else's character, whether or not they're still using that character, because it suits what you want to do. Especially since it's pretty drastic. It would be sort of like...Sort of like if there was an Outsider PC (like a Neraph or Aasimar or something) who couldn't be raised from the dead under normal circumstances, and their player leaves and you kill them off, and then raise them as a living NPC later. It just breaks the feel of the character.

Now, what you COULD do is have some malevolent spirit see the corpse/bones/ashes, and drain enough residual spirit of some sort to create an undead copy of the character. It would have the same spooky impact you want, and if no one questions it then it's okay. If they later learn that tainted creatures rise as undead, and they're like "Wait, she was immune to taint!" you can say "Yes...yes she was. How mysterious..." and smirk knowingly.

[KillianHawkeye]

Komori has a feat that makes her immune to taint. It hadn't come up in character, so I'm thinking of stripping it from her, giving her enough depravity to go insane, and then giving her a couple levels of maho-tsukai. Then in a little while, she'd meet up with Danovich and terrorize the town a bit until the players stop them.

Would either of these ideas bother you as a player?

This isn't bending the rules, it's retconning to remove an ability from an NPC. An ability which had not been demonstrably used or mentioned.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with doing that because the players can't miss something they never knew about.

[awa]

saying its a desecration of the character is awfully harsh.

personally i think you should go ahead with it if you think it would make the game interesting. and if a player comments about it you can just say you (the question asker) don't know why it happened it's a mystery if you care you could try and research how it happened.

[Tanuki Tales]

As soon as a PC stops being a PC and starts being an NPC, I see nothing wrong with changing the character to suit the story you're trying to tell.

[dascarletm]

Same here.

Also, bones do burn, just not down to ashes. There might be enough for a skeleton but it would be really fragmented if there was.

Burning Skeleton! The perfect time to use one!

[Rhynn]

Komori has a feat that makes her immune to taint. It hadn't come up in character, so I'm thinking of stripping it from her [...]

Would either of these ideas bother you as a player?

Seems kosher to me. If it never came up, it might as well not have existed. Honestly, I'd probably even let players change their PCs feats if they've never ever affected play in a good while of playing.

[killem2]

I have done far worse than this. I've pulled entire delorean-esk moves and reversed entire events due to rules issues.

My players didn't lynch me. Yours will live.

[rot42]

For Danovich I would make some acknowledgement of the fact that they burned the body. At some point the PCs are going to want to kill something and have it stay dead, and having some sort of consistent mechanics encourages them to work out a creative solution.

For Komori, I would have no problem as a current player or as the one who left (though as others have mentioned it could get a bit awkward if the player returns in any way). Simply editing away the feat as you propose plays up the taint mechanics. This might suit your purposes, but could her reappearance be tied to the plot of the module in some way? Depending on how she died ... minor spoilers for the module under spoiler tag:
Might Strahd have (metaphorically) seduced her? Strahd is experimenting to eliminate vampire weaknesses, and might find her immunity useful.

[Spuddles]

Bones DO burn, even in low temp fires. I would look for a fire based undead to bring the npc back as, or something incorporeal.

Do things that die from taint ALWAYS come back?
If the char just died, and not from taint, and the PCs burnt it, I'm not sure I would want to bring it back. Unless it was in unhallowed ground or they didnt have a proper burial or something.

[Jeff the Green]

Do things that die from taint ALWAYS come back?
If the char just died, and not from taint, and the PCs burnt it, I'm not sure I would want to bring it back. Unless it was in unhallowed ground or they didnt have a proper burial or something.

Yes, they do, and as a particular type of undead, the Tainted Minion. If he'd been killed normally (or knocked out, like they were trying to do) he wouldn't have risen. But the shadowcaster made the mistake of doing Constitution damage, which lowered his taint threshold to below his corruption.

If I bring him back, he'll definitely be a charred skeleton, possibly with the fiery skeleton template from Libris Mortis. What's scary is the tainted minion can change shape into any humanoid, so he can screw with the characters for a little while before the fight.

Edit: Does anyone have any experience with or pictures of burnt skeletons? I'm not finding any online, and my only experience is with barbecues, which probably does not resemble a funeral pyre all that much. (If the pictures are gruesome, you may want to PM them to me. I'm pretty iron-stomached, but not everyone is.)

[dascarletm]

google "Charred Skeleton"

that'll help

[ACSherman]

There's a fire-based undead called an Effigy on page 89 of the MMII, which is a creature I've used to good effect before. It's CR17, so you may want to nerf it a bit, but the idea of a flaming ghost of a former teammate possessing party members and turning them against each other is one that was a lot of fun for my players. I'd most likely take away the negative levels and lower the wisdom checks (maybe making HD, stats, etc. based around your players stats), but it could work well.

[dascarletm]

Another idea for the burnt companion, perhaps certain rituals besides burning need to be done. A priest must say a prayer, or a certain ritual must be performed (funerals have traditions for a reason!).

For the girl, you could say that a necromancer raised her anyway if they fuss about the feat at all. (Don't actually tell them but make it something they could find out.) I always say, "Ah, yes she did have that feat. Interesting isn't it:smallamused:."

[Wings of Peace]

You're the DM, rule 0. It doesn't sound like the player is coming back so at this point her character isn't different from an npc in any practical sense, do whatever makes the campaign the most interesting. Hell, taint suddenly affecting people who are normally too pure to be corrupted could be a big plot development in and of itself.

[Hyde]

Just because something is done for different reasons doesn't stop its full consequences. If burning bodies is supposed to stop undead in your campaign, then it doesn't really matter why they burned it- it's either a thing or it isn't, their motivations are irrelevant.

Also, the character probably shouldn't have had a feat to prevent taint in the first place- it kind of defeats one of the central mechanics of the game. That said, since you allowed it, you should live with it and leave the character alone.

Personally, I wouldn't do it, revising things after the fact- even if they're rules no one knows yet, is a little screwy. The players should be able to expect consistency, and this kind of behavior is a bad place to start. Really, it seems like you're asking for someone to roll a Henderson.

[Edit: That said, turning the dead guy into some kind of fire-based undead? especially if they burned him still in Ravenloft? yeah, that'd be okay. If they carried the body somewhere "safe" first, though, I maintain you should leave them alone with it. Otherwise... flameharrow?]

[Killer Angel]

If I were one of the remaining players, I would find it very appropriate and even cool, given the setting.

[supermonkeyjoe]

Is it integral to this character that they be raised as undead by the taint? Can't some villain come along and do some necromancy hoodo on them to raise them as an insane evil undead?

[Siosilvar]

If the character didn't die of taint, and spent one of their precious few feat slots on this exact thing not happening, don't bring the character back as taint-undead. If you want them back as a villain, find some other way to do it; if the players get the idea that you'll just strip them of their feats, even if you only do it to characters without players, they're right on track for thinking of you as tyrannical. It might be neat, but the risks heavily outweigh the consequences.

[Crake]

If I recall correctly you turn into either a Tainted Minion or a Tainted Raver the exact moment you hit too much Corruption/Depravity, the character doesn't DIE as much as they transform. So they don't drop dead then get up a bit later, they just immediately go from normal, to tainted minion. Thus someone who is dead cannot become a tainted minion or raver. What you COULD do though, is have the characters come back as some kind of vengeful undead that have been warped by taint, hounding the surviving characters for not saving them, or disposing of their bodies in some bad manner (I'm sure you can find something). A taint elemental could also substitute for an undead in this case. Sorta like the character's soul mixing with the surrounding taint to form a creature, it's somewhat fitting imo.

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Siosilvar
If the character didn't die of taint, and spent one of their precious few feat slots on this exact thing not happening, don't bring the character back as taint-undead.

I agree with this completely. Feats are literally worth more than gold. If the player spent one of her rare few feats on this effect, then it really was a core element of the character's being.

Whether or not it had a chance to shine doesn't matter--it was there, and completely reversing it may cause problems later on. If I were another player who learned about this, my own trust in the DM would be damaged as a result.


Originally Posted by Siosilvar
...if the players get the idea that you'll just strip them of their feats, even if you only do it to characters without players, they're right on track for thinking of you as tyrannical. It might be neat, but the risks heavily outweigh the consequences.

I would say "arbitrary" rather than "tyrannical," but otherwise this is spot on.

Also, I've had players go dark on me, sometimes with a bit of advance notice and sometimes none at all. It's frustrating, but you don't always know what's going on with people. I've had a player on radio silence for months now, and the odds suggest he's not ever coming back, but I'm keeping his character warm nonetheless.

If your player returns, and she sees what's happened with her old character, you can expect her to be vocally and justifiably upset, and there may be ramifications for your group's trust in their DM.

[Evard]

Retraining rules can apply to the DM just as easily as players.

Psion Psychic Reformation? (Or whatever it is)

Level drained and lost the feat? Wait do you lose feats from level drained? Hmm

[Crake]

Level drained and lost the feat? Wait do you lose feats from level drained? Hmm

as long as the feat wasn't taken at 1st level, permanent level loss from failing a fortitude save vs a negative level after 24 hours does result in the loss of feats if they were gained at the lost levels.

If it was taken at level 1, then the character would die before losing it.

[Quietus]

Edit: Does anyone have any experience with or pictures of burnt skeletons? I'm not finding any online, and my only experience is with barbecues, which probably does not resemble a funeral pyre all that much. (If the pictures are gruesome, you may want to PM them to me. I'm pretty iron-stomached, but not everyone is.)


Would something like this do?

http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx54/Vorpail/UndeadFireMage.jpg

[KillianHawkeye]

If I bring him back, he'll definitely be a charred skeleton, possibly with the fiery skeleton template from Libris Mortis. What's scary is the tainted minion can change shape into any humanoid, so he can screw with the characters for a little while before the fight.

In this case, you need to pull a Ghost Rider. Does the character happen to have spiked chain proficiency?

[hydraa]

As mentioned previously. A burning skeleton is in "Return to Temple of Elemental Evil"

[Vertharrad]

My players stay out, please.

I'm running Expedition to Castle Ravenloft and so far one NPC has died due to taint (a priest named Danovich) and a player has disappeared, leaving me to kill off her character (Komori). I'm thinking about bending the rules slightly to let me reintroduce both of them as minor villains in a little while.

When a character dies of corruption (the physical form of taint), they rise some time later as an undead. The PCs didn't know that, but for other reasons burned the body. I'm thinking that that won't actually stop the formation of the undead, just make them skeletal (since bones don't burn).

Komori has a feat that makes her immune to taint. It hadn't come up in character, so I'm thinking of stripping it from her, giving her enough depravity to go insane, and then giving her a couple levels of maho-tsukai. Then in a little while, she'd meet up with Danovich and terrorize the town a bit until the players stop them.

Would either of these ideas bother you as a player?

The first one you've had enough people give you good advice and I have nothing to contribute.

The second one NO, don't do this. Your sending a clear message once it gets out that the players will respond to in one of 2 ways. 1) Leave the game for there is nothing sacred character wise that you won't change to suit your machinations or 2) ask whether a feat will be 100% usable before taking it. I usually side with the DM if it's warranted, and in this case it's not. Every feat class feature/item/etc. is central to a character or the player wouldn't take it for the character. I would suggest you make up your own NPC in this case.

[ksbsnowowl]

Why exactly do you want to bring Danovich back? I think it's pretty well assumed by the module that he's going to die. When I ran EtCR, I'm pretty sure he met a quick end, and never returned.

Now, that said, occasionally bringing foes back can be a lot of fun and can really advance the story in some ways. But I would wait and pick some better options later in the game.

[awa]

ignoring a feat of a character who is no longer in the game is not some kind of sacrilege. feats aren't "sacred" to a character particularly if that character is an npc.

[Jeff the Green]

Why exactly do you want to bring Danovich back? I think it's pretty well assumed by the module that he's going to die. When I ran EtCR, I'm pretty sure he met a quick end, and never returned.

Like I said, the shadowcaster made the mistake of doing Constitution damage to a character with lots of taint, which made him die of taint, which means he should come back as a tainted minion. Plus I need to kill off Komori somehow. I tried making her run off because of fear effects and get eaten by wolves, but forgot that the party includes A) a paladin who insisted on rescuing her and B) a swift hunter that could track her across barren rock in the rain.

[ksbsnowowl]

So they did or did not burn Danovich's body?

And they did or did not burn the NPC's body?

Certainly, if they left Danovich unburned, and he died in the way proscribed for the creation of tainted... whatevers, go for it.

[Tanuki Tales]

Really, it seems like you're asking for someone to roll a Henderson.


That...would be a massive overreaction to what Jeff was asking about. :smallconfused:

[Hyde]

That...would be a massive overreaction to what Jeff was asking about. :smallconfused:

Have you ever seen a reaction that wasn't of the "massive over-" variety?

[Tanuki Tales]

Have you ever seen a reaction that wasn't of the "massive over-" variety?

Are you insinuating that gamers are incapable of rational discourse and reactions concerning impasses or perceived slights?

[Hyde]

Are you insinuating that gamers are incapable of rational discourse and reactions concerning impasses or perceived slights?

I'm saying it never hurts to plan worst-case.

[Tanuki Tales]

I'm saying it never hurts to plan worst-case.

What I got from your first message though is that he should expect the worst case from the get go and that'd he'd be kind of deserving it for the scope of his "bending of the rules". I apologize if that was not your intent, but Henderson is a reaction of last resort against the most "tyrannical" and "bad" GMs. So it was odd that you told him to "expect" such a reaction from his players over what he is asking about doing.

[Deaxsa]

i would be upset if you made my paladin undergo a fear effect, so i would be mildly upset if you removed a feat from a character just to fit your plot. it's that kind of thing that the DM has to adhere to, or gets risked being called a bad DM. honestly, i'd just suggest finding a normal way of becoming undead, something that screams undead, like making it the character with that feat a mummy, instead of breaking the rules.

yea. don't break the rules unless you absolutely have to. you don't have to.

As far as homebrewing a feat, there is no way to make it inconspicuous (oh by the way... you guys, i'm adding this feat blahblah...) any intelligent player is going to see right through that. like in aa good magic trick though, you still have to show the audience something before you begin your shenanigans. i would suggest making your players come in contact with a magic item that does what the homebrew feat does, let them use it once or twice, and then have it stolen from them. the point(s) being: A) they saw it(and maybe even got to use it) before it was used against them, B) you not being so blatant.

edit: so just to be clear, this is how i would make things happen, in chronological order:
1. Danovich rises as undead
2. party finds/encounters artifact, learns about its use (whether through exposition(ugh) or experimentation(yay)
3. artifact goes missing
4. danovich uses artifact on komori, raises her(him?) as undead
5. komori and danovich reappear as villains

yes, it still uses DM fiat, but much, much less risky fiat.

[CyberThread]

think of some sort of mystical mumbo jumbo that overcame that affect because she was dead :)


If the soul left the body, obviously the pure soul feat would not work, leaving yourself open to just reanimating the corpse with a a different not so nice spirit, who THEY happen to think is their friend, until they find out to late.

[Tanuki Tales]

i would be upset if you made my paladin undergo a fear effect, so i would be mildly upset if you removed a feat from a character just to fit your plot. it's that kind of thing that the DM has to adhere to, or gets risked being called a bad DM. honestly, i'd just suggest finding a normal way of becoming undead, something that screams undead, like making it the character with that feat a mummy, instead of breaking the rules.


Even if you quit the game and had no intentions of going back?