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Mr.MeowMeowmers
2013-04-08, 02:49 AM
Hey people from the playgrounds!

I've been following whats going on in this forum for quite a long time, which was not just entertaining but also gave me a lot of inspirations for actual roleplaying, charbuilding and so on.

So, soon i'll be DM'ing our group. The DM ( who did an awesome job ) over the last year, told us that he is a little tired of always being the GM, so long story short i'm the one who has to lead the game for the next couple times. Problem is: I've never really mastered a game before!

First of all: We're playing pathfinder, using the core rulebook and the advanced players guide.

We are six people ( 5 players + me).

I already have a plot, with some hook and hella lots of sidequests to do, if the party decides to randomly troll around, so thats not the big problem.

But:

How do i introduce them to the plot? How am i supposed to bring the party together? I don't want the characters to know eachother before the game starts, so i need to make sure that these five strangers actually group up without making it look cheesy.

Also, i'm still wondering if we should start at level 5, or seven. ( Talked to the party before, all of them agreed that they don't want to start at 1 again).

Questions, questions, questions...
How do i keep control of the party? I know these guys and girls and sometimes they ( we :P ) tend to... overextend simple tasks. Stuff that was planned to take 15 minutes, drags itself over on hour and so on. Any ideas for handling that?

Also, i need a maze. I'd love to build one, since in the first or second session, they'll be encountering a minotaur, but i'm very good at making these things way too hard or mess them up totally =). Are there any good mazes i could use? Or do you have any tipps for me, when it comes to building it myself?

If you have any other ideas or tipps that you think would help me, be it whatever, feel free to go ahead and tell me! I'm thankful for even the tiniest bits of help!

So long,

and thanks everyone =).

Ps: English is not my mothertongue, so some things might sound... weird!

Lorsa
2013-04-08, 04:31 AM
How do i introduce them to the plot? How am i supposed to bring the party together? I don't want the characters to know eachother before the game starts, so i need to make sure that these five strangers actually group up without making it look cheesy.

Also, i'm still wondering if we should start at level 5, or seven. ( Talked to the party before, all of them agreed that they don't want to start at 1 again).

Questions, questions, questions...
How do i keep control of the party? I know these guys and girls and sometimes they ( we :P ) tend to... overextend simple tasks. Stuff that was planned to take 15 minutes, drags itself over on hour and so on. Any ideas for handling that?

Also, i need a maze. I'd love to build one, since in the first or second session, they'll be encountering a minotaur, but i'm very good at making these things way too hard or mess them up totally =). Are there any good mazes i could use? Or do you have any tipps for me, when it comes to building it myself?

If you have any other ideas or tipps that you think would help me, be it whatever, feel free to go ahead and tell me! I'm thankful for even the tiniest bits of help!

It is a bit hard to answer your question of how to introduce them to the plot when you haven't given us any specifics of it or the characters. But there's some classics, like working for the same employer or being captured by the same evil villain and the like. Most times these days I go with them knowing eachother from the start and let the players figure out how. Otherwise having the same employer that groups them together for a mission usually works.

I would start at as low level as possible, simply because there's lots of fun to be had at lower levels and missing out on it is no good! Everyone thinks differently however and we can hardly tell you if level 5 or 7 is best for your group.

You can't 'control' a group of players. If you try you'll most likely end up railroading them which is (usually) no fun for anyone. Unless they bore themselves, who cares if it takes longer? Most of the time, however long the GM thought something would take, in practice it will take a lot longer. As long as the players are happy, that's fine and you certainly shouldn't try to 'control' them.

As for mazes, it's been a long time since I tried to make a maze. My tip is to keep it fairly simple. What seems easy to you (since you sit there with the map) might seem large and dangerous to your players. Also maybe include some portal-like stuff, that is if you stand on a certain spot and place your hands on the wall you will be teleported to another room. Teleportation mazes are used lots in computer games for a reason.

My general tip to you is: relax. You will not get everything perfect the first time GMing (or ever for that matter). Practice makes better though, so don't set the bar too high for yourself or you might end up depressed. Make sure that everyone knows you are new and it's a learning experience.

Rhynn
2013-04-08, 05:02 AM
Meanwhile, a few threads down... (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=279050)


The old standby: the PCs randomly come across the situation, and find it bears investigating. Tricky, because what if they don't feel like investigating it? (That's being a bit of a bad player, but it happens all the time.)

The other: the PCs are sent into the situation on a related errand. In the intro adventure in Artesia: Adventures in the Known World, the PCs are hired to take a package and a message to a knight. Turns out the knight is sick, and asks the PCs to run an errand for him. The errand turns complicated, and the PCs may get involved in high intrigue - the struggle between the heirs to the kingdom.

Generally, the easiest way is to drop clues that get bigger and bigger. Or, if you prefer a more linear path, to lead the PCs from situation to situation, with the stakes getting higher and their understanding of the context widening with each step, until they are deeply involved.

And maybe my favorite: the PCs have a stake in the situation by virtue of who they are. If the big story is about civil war, the PCs are vassals (or the men of a vassal) of a lord who is the vassal of a duke who is a big player in any national politics, like a civil war.

Specific background might beget specific answers.

Kol Korran
2013-04-08, 05:09 AM
first of all, welcome to GMing, it's a fun if taxing job, i hope you'll like it. I'll try to answer some specifics of your post.


Problem is: I've never really mastered a game before!
I haven't mastered it either, and i'm still playing it a long time. alert your players youre not a walking encyclopedia, and that you make mistakes. if you can check rules about a specific situation before the scene. when a rule discussion comes in the game give people the chance to present the case, and then decide for the session what the rule is. you can check and reassess after the session, but in session- it needs to flow (i'll give up to 10 minutes time to discuss rules)

don't worry, you'll learn and master more ast ime comes by. being fair and reasonable in your decisions is more important.


How do i introduce them to the plot? How am i supposed to bring the party together? you need to tell us a bit more about the plot and players, since this is usually very game specific. but a few things that may help:
- first, explain to the party what sort of campaign they might deal with (high heroics, bizarre and stragne, horror, conspiracy and so on).
- then tell them a bit about the setting, at least what their characters might know.
- then explain what sort of character might work well, and what might not work well in this sort of campaign.
- explain the starting scene, and demand that each party member has a reason to want to participate. you can work with players to fit their concept to the scene (an employer, a dire situation, a voyage on a vessel, a tournament, a festival, and so on)
- as to have the party work togehter, explain to the party that that is THEIR job, THEIR repsonsebility. when desiging characters they should actively seek ways to help their characters work together (even if they don't know the enitre details of each other, the major clues like hints and motivations might go a long way). if your party is mature enough, i suggest also incorporating some seeds of conflict inside, but not all parties know how to handle these beneficially


Also, i'm still wondering if we should start at level 5, or seven. ( Talked to the party before, all of them agreed that they don't want to start at 1 again).
It's your choice, but my preference is level 5- high enough to have an interesting array of powers, but not too many to get overwhelmed.


How do i keep control of the party? I know these guys and girls and sometimes they ( we :P ) tend to... overextend simple tasks. Stuff that was planned to take 15 minutes, drags itself over on hour and so on. Any ideas for handling that?
this happens at most parties, so don't fret. it's part of the fun, and part of the thing where players tend to do their own things rather then what you tell them. i'd suggest two approaches:
- either use NPCs to hint about things or the "****, we've talked too long now the ogres are attacking" approach, though that is a bit too heavy handed.
- if your players have taken such an interest in a minor thing, try to see if you can make it more worthwhile. this may require some quick thinking, but try to expand the minor NPC the players talked about, or add an interesting tactic/ power/ magic item/ background to the monster they've been needlessly obsessing about. you're supposed to give a good gaming experience, but it needn't be necessary to plan... :smallwink:
- or just wait for them to be over with and continue on, but this is a bit boring and frustrating.


Also, i need a maze. I'd love to build one, since in the first or second session, they'll be encountering a minotaur, but i'm very good at making these things way too hard or mess them up totally =). Are there any good mazes i could use? Or do you have any tipps for me, when it comes to building it myself?
I suck at dungeons, rarely used them myself, good luck to you!
.

W3bDragon
2013-04-08, 05:15 AM
How do i introduce them to the plot? How am i supposed to bring the party together? I don't want the characters to know eachother before the game starts, so i need to make sure that these five strangers actually group up without making it look cheesy.

Like Lorsa already mentioned, having the same employer or a grudge against the same villain could be a unifying force for your party, however...

I'd strongly recommend against having them start as strangers. You'll easily waste the whole of the first session getting them together, sometimes even longer, and whatever connections they form naturally as part of the plot could be very weak and quickly become redundant as the current mission is completed.

As such, I recommend that you ask them to start out as an adventuring party. Have them come up with what binds them together, where they know each other from, etc. They could be a band of mercenaries, a police force, members of an adventuring guild, etc. Since its your first time DMing, it'll make your life much easier.


Also, i'm still wondering if we should start at level 5, or seven. ( Talked to the party before, all of them agreed that they don't want to start at 1 again).

I'd recommend level 3, and no higher than 5. If they're 7th level, they're no longer challenged by simple tasks and simple enemies, which makes your job as a DM harder. Level 3 is high enough that they don't die causally because of a random crit, and most classes have gotten the base of their abilities, but is still low enough to play through and enjoy "low level play", which is pretty fun and easy to run for the DM.


How do i keep control of the party? I know these guys and girls and sometimes they ( we :P ) tend to... overextend simple tasks. Stuff that was planned to take 15 minutes, drags itself over on hour and so on. Any ideas for handling that?

If you feel that they're making simple tasks overly complicated, then you have a couple of options:

* If they're enjoying it, let them carry on and reward them for being extra careful or extra smart or whatever.

* If they're getting frustrated or lost and are turning simple tasks into 2 hour monstrosities, then just take over the narrative and tell them what their attempts have yielded.

For example, the players are trying to cross a river. You describe to them a rickety boat on the beach. You were trying to convey that no one has been here in a long time. Instead, they understand that the rickety boat is unsafe, and set about trying to repair it with outlandish plans involving rope, trees, leaves, the occasional dagger, and that expensive sovereign glue they got last session.

That's when you take over the narrative and say: "Your party spends a couple of hours attempting various methods of repairing the boat. While testing one of those attempts, you realize that the boat, though old, is pretty sea worthy without any modifications. You conduct some simple maintenance on it and use it to cross the shore. You're on the other side of the river, the sun is about to set. You hear howling wolves in the distance, and the infamous macabre forest looms large in your sights."

Like that, you've not only solved the problem they created out of nothing, but also gave them no reason to keep dwelling on it after your narrative is done.


Also, i need a maze. I'd love to build one, since in the first or second session, they'll be encountering a minotaur, but i'm very good at making these things way too hard or mess them up totally =). Are there any good mazes i could use? Or do you have any tipps for me, when it comes to building it myself?

My old DM ran a rather amusing maze for us once. It was simple and elegant, but seemed more complicated than it actually was. I'll try to draw it and edit it in.

Edit:
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/1603/mazea.jpg

Basically its four independent sections. You fill them in as you see fit with whatever matches your theme. However, at the beginning of each corridor, where the letters are, is an opaque teleportation screen. Each time someone crosses the screen, roll a d4 and place them at a random corridor (which could also be the one they just left.) If the PCs are holding hands or otherwise attached (ex. with rope), they all end up in the same corridor when they cross the screen, otherwise, roll randomly for each one. Choose one denizen of this maze, whether it be the owner of this wizard tower or the famed minotaur or whatever, and give him and only him, the ability to choose which corridor they go to when the cross the screen. Don't forget to place an entrance and exit somewhere.

Rhynn
2013-04-08, 07:30 AM
Also, i need a maze. I'd love to build one, since in the first or second session, they'll be encountering a minotaur, but i'm very good at making these things way too hard or mess them up totally =). Are there any good mazes i could use? Or do you have any tipps for me, when it comes to building it myself?

Paratime Design (http://paratime.ca/) has awesome free maps (http://paratime.ca/cartography/index.html). There's at least one maze (http://paratime.ca/images/fantasy/maze001.jpg).

Some of them (including image links to some not on the page) are found over in Turgenev's dungeon maps (http://www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=27578&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0) at Dragonsfoot.

If you want to make your own, I recommend Dungeonographer (http://www.dungeonographer.com/).

After finding Paratime Design, I seriously have more dungeon maps than I can ever put to use - and I'm going to be using them for running sandbox campaigns, with wildernesses littered with dungeons (filled with more or less random content).

Edit: I sort of counted (there's doubles; same Paratime maps in color, in old-school blue, and in B&W), and I've got over 200 dungeon maps.

Also, there's the donjon (http://donjon.bin.sh/adnd/dungeon/) dungeon generator. You don't have to use the randomly generated content, but the maps can be invaluable. It's especially great for cavern maps.

Jenfrag
2013-04-08, 08:33 AM
I haven't mastered it either, and i'm still playing it a long time.

And I think no one have ever mastered a game no matter how long they have been playing that game already.:smallbiggrin:

Mr.MeowMeowmers
2013-04-08, 09:51 AM
Thank you so much, for all the answers!

We've decided to start at level five, so that should be allright.

I plan on starting the campaign at a small town, which has a problem with a minotaur in the woods, who's been slaying people that get lost in his maze, frees cows and horses from the farms etc. etc.
So they'll start in the town, where they buy some stuff for preparation and then go to solve this rather small quest together. While in the maze, or shortly after they're hopefully done with the minotaur and some other problems, they discover some secrets that lead them to the real plot. The antagonists are their old characters, but in this case they are evil ( the paladin is a fanatic who wants to spread his faith, the druid wants to get rid of civilization and so on ) and plan to sabotage the kingdom in which they are. Since they don't have much information, they have to go and seek more, which leads them to a huge goblin city ( crazy RP ahead ;) ) and a meeting with our old orc barbarian, who died as a hero when he blew up half of a city in the last campaign after discovering a rather huge amount of fireworks and taking down the BBEG by blowing himself and the BBEG up.

The old characters are only small antagonists, not truly evil, but they are manipulated by the real BBEG ( a bard ), but this will take some time for them to figure out.

So more questions!!
How many random encounters should i build in?
Our focus is on roleplay, but some fighting or random funny stuff keeps the people entertained, right?
Any fun ideas for small trouble along the way? ( Carrying a drunken dwarf home to his house... or what ever :D )

Let the ideas flourish! ( is this even english? :/)

Again, thank you,, everone!

laeZ1
2013-04-08, 11:35 AM
If you have any other ideas or tipps that you think would help me, be it whatever, feel free to go ahead and tell me! I'm thankful for even the tiniest bits of help!
First of all, welcome to the wonderful and terrible world of DMing. I would first like to suggest to you to decide the mood of the game. How do you want the game to feel? I have friends who play D&D to build super powerful characters and roll dice. I have other friends who play to become someone else, and really enjoy the roleplay. Some people I know play specifically because their friends do, and they like to hang out with them. Some people enjoy serious settings, and others enjoy a light-hearted mood. Figure out what you want, and what your players want, and all of these questions will be much easier to answer.

That being said...

I already have a plot, with some hook and hella lots of sidequests to do, if the party decides to randomly troll around, so thats not the big problem. This is a good idea. Having a bunch of sideplots, random encounters, and NPC names in your backpocket makes you seem all-knowing.


How do i introduce them to the plot? That depends on what the plot is, but the trick is to make them care. "The king sent me on the quest" may be important to one person, but another person might think "I don't care that the king sent me on the quest, I'm in it to save my sister!". Make sure you understand not only what your players care about, but what their characters care about too.

How am i supposed to bring the party together?I don't want the characters to know eachother before the game starts, so i need to make sure that these five strangers actually group up without making it look cheesy. This is my favorite way to start a campaign, but it can be really tricky. I had sent my players to the same area and created a situation where they had to work together. Another way (I wouldn't do this) is to have plotwizard summon them. Perhaps they're all living their lives in their happy little villages, then all wake up on a foggy island the next morning, none of them know how they got there.


Also, i'm still wondering if we should start at level 5, or seven. ( Talked to the party before, all of them agreed that they don't want to start at 1 again). 5 and 6 are my favorite levels to start a game at. I always consider level 5 characters "adventurers". Before that, you're still whatever you were beforehand. 6 is usually where you get your first level of a prestiege class, though I feel like in pathfinder, it's less important to have a prestiege class (since all of the base classes already have so much customization).


How do i keep control of the party? I know these guys and girls and sometimes they ( we :P ) tend to... overextend simple tasks. Stuff that was planned to take 15 minutes, drags itself over on hour and so on. Any ideas for handling that? If it takes longer for IC reasons, don't handle it. Some of the best D&D stories are goofing around, or taking the long way, not noticing the shortcut right in front of you. If it takes longer because everybody is chatting out of character, and this bothers you, let your players know. I sometimes take these opportunities to have the people not talking roll perception checks to notice something important.


Also, i need a maze. I'd love to build one, since in the first or second session, they'll be encountering a minotaur, but i'm very good at making these things way too hard or mess them up totally =). Are there any good mazes i could use? Or do you have any tipps for me, when it comes to building it myself? The only tips I have with building mazes is to think about why the maze is there. If it's there as a trap for the characters, or just a prison for the minotaur, it'll have different properties. (walls don't need to be immune to magic if it's just holding a non-magical minotaur prisoner, but might be a good idea if it's trapping a party of adventurers. Things like that)

Good luck, and let us know how everything turns out!

tommhans
2013-04-10, 07:47 AM
hehe im in teh same boat as you myself! only i am just exchanging roles with the DM so he takes over my legendary human fighter(sad to not be him anymore, but gonna be fun being DM :) )

So yeah basically i have to take over his plot, which takes care of that introducing the players to eachother problem but gives me restrictions of what my plot is.
Allthough, he is going to the home town of my fighter, where i wrote an epic background story, so i got control over that plot hehe, and ive covered most areas they can go from where they start

If they decide to not sail to land with the ship or go back to the island they were at in the previous session will bring up a kraken just for the sake of it and the npc dude that steers the ship will be frightened and try to convince them that it is no good idea, i reckon theyll actually fight it, so i have to nerf it down so i dont TPW them the first 5 minutes :D

Anyways, they go to this castle where the fighter is a wanted man, basically everyone knows him and he has a high DC check on bluff, there is also a reward for 40k gold pieces for the ones that turn him in so he is a really wanted man!, so i give them several options, go to a bar
(which i know they will) in the small port villages outside the big city where he is wanted, or go straight to the city, There is an important artifact that they need to gather that is in that city, so going to another one would be stupid, as there is soon to be a giant invasion of the country and they need to gather all these epic artifacts(they have 3 of 5) so yeah, not going to that city will mean i unleash some giants and they will have a lot worse problems gathering all the artifacts because it means more giants to go through to get it :)

I set it up so that no matter what they do if they enter the city with the artifact, they will end up in the same place at first :) except if they actually try to bluff their way in, which will be hard ^^

Mr.MeowMeowmers
2013-04-15, 09:25 AM
Hello everyone!

So we had our first session and it went way better then expected. Was quite alot of fun.

The party looks like the following:
Gnome Alchemist 7
Ratfolk Ninja 7
Dwarf Inquisitor 7
Tiefling Ranger/Bard/Alchemist
Vanaran Ranger + Gorilla companion


Any ideas for some encounters, that might challenge them a bit?
The problem i see so far is, that the damage of the alchemist is just insane, plus he got loads of bombs.
He got 22 int and 18 dex, which he could easily pump up to 20.

So how can i get a hold of this ?
I don't want to hard-counter him, but it's kinda like the party is watching him blow everything up!

Thanks so far.

PaganByNature
2018-08-16, 12:41 AM
Hello everyone!

Any ideas for some encounters, that might challenge them a bit?
The problem i see so far is, that the damage of the alchemist is just insane, plus he got loads of bombs.
He got 22 int and 18 dex, which he could easily pump up to 20.

So how can i get a hold of this ?
I don't want to hard-counter him, but it's kinda like the party is watching him blow everything up!

Thanks so far.

Alright having dealt with a few "OP" players/characters at my own table, I will say from my POV, sometimes you have to do a bit of humbling. Sometimes a hard counter is necessary to make the OP person dial it back a bit and rely on the skills of their party. There's quite a few subtle ways of doing this, and remember not all encounters have to be combat or able to be solved with bombs.

-shatter spell traps (effectively destroy his vials and even maybe cause him some problems)
-encounters in tight spaces where the bombs would be just as destructive to the party
-windwall spell from your bad guy stops all thrown objects and arrows
-prepared counterspell from your bad guy so when he hucks a bomb the counterspell can be a levitate (hold the object harmlessly in place) or gust of wind (chance to blow object back in the general direction of its origins, could cause potential problems for party)
-confusion spells
-environmental hazards that might cause dizzy/confusing effects making throwing things really tricky
-illusions that make him waste his arsenal and materials hucking his bombs at something that doesn't exist only to be an ambush from the other way and he's left screaming for halp

These are just ideas, similar-ish things I've had to do with my party sending them against things unaffected by magic or antimagic zones (cause sometimes the mage needs to be benched) or immune to mundane weapons (cause those cheapskates who don't wanna shell out for a magic bow or sword or certain weapons that would be effective... that stone creature sure would have been allergic to a big hammer, but Mr. Fighter just had to keep that damn sword), that silly rogue that always has the flank for backstab bonus putting your bads down very quickly... a tight place where they can't hide and are in front seems to take the steam out of them a bit. But I say again, sometimes a hard counter is necessary to basically humble the character a bit and be like "aight, y'all see what you can do, if you can't, I'll finish whatever is left or give you something to make it so you can".