[Pathfinder] Creating Alt. Spell-Less Paladin

[ZDPhoenix]

Focusing more on the battleborn avenging angel trope, than the heavy handed servant of a God, I've been playing a variant Paladin in a test game and I'm in search of opinions on what to do here.

The idea is to have a Faithful Combatant, who is trained as a paladin, but without the years of heavy monastic ritualism. Spawned from a time where the Darkness isn't hiding in the night of a blood moon anymore; and when heroes of the faith are in low supply.

Here's what we've been doing so far.

No Spells, although Detect Evil, Smite, LoH and CPE are still in effects.
Instead of spells, extended Divine Weapon usage (essentially keeps active during most combats, instead of 2 minutes a day, etc.) We've been keeping the progression the same, despite the lack of spells (I.E. +3 at Level 11).

Is the Divine Weapon extension an even trade for a lack of spells? If not, is it over/under powered? Why? Should we add more to it? Temper it?

I'm aware of the Paizo variants, like Stonelord and Warrior of The Holy Light. But we're trying for something more like "Empowered Holy Avenger" than healing warrior.

[Xerxus]

Extend the aura ranges, give him some of the utility spells in the spell list as spell-like abilities and add some kind of offensive upgrade. But the spellcasting really gives the paladin something special, that inkling of versatility which allows them to adapt. Spells like deadly juggernaut are hard to replace.

[ZDPhoenix]

Extend the aura ranges, give him some of the utility spells in the spell list as spell-like abilities and add some kind of offensive upgrade. But the spellcasting really gives the paladin something special, that inkling of versatility which allows them to adapt. Spells like deadly juggernaut are hard to replace.

Deadly Juggernaut as a spell-like ability? Hmm. That's interesting. The idea slowly forming as being chosen for their martial prowess, not necessarily for their faith alone.

Any suggestions on offensive upgrades?

[AttilaTheGeek]

3.5's Crusader (http://dndtools.eu/classes/crusader/), from the Tome of Battle, seems exactly like what you're looking for. It was basically designed as the paladin replacement:

"Devoted knight, divine agent, instrument of vengeance, peerless fighting machine — the crusader is a warrior dedicated to good, evil, law, chaos, or some other cause."

"Indomitable Soul (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, you draw upon the power of your unwavering faith to steel yourself against the enemies you face. Your personality, energy, and dedication to your faith make it possible for you to shrug off attacks that target your willpower. You add your Charisma bonus (if any) as a bonus on Will saves. This bonus does not stack with that from a paladin’s divine grace ability."

"Smite (Ex): Driven by the courage of your convictions and the ironclad strength of your beliefs, you can strike back at those who dare stand against your cause. Starting at 6th level, once per day, you can concentrate all your anger, hatred, and determination into a single attack. On the next melee attack you make, you gain a bonus on your attack roll equal to your Charisma bonus (if any) and a bonus on damage equal to your crusader level. At 18th level, you gain an additional use of smite per day."

It's also super fun to play.

[ZDPhoenix]

AttilaTheGeek, the part you wrote in bold on Smite; isn't that already in play with Smite Evil in Pathfinder?

"If this target is evil, the paladin adds her Cha bonus (if any) to her attack rolls and adds her paladin level to all damage rolls made against the target of her smite. If the target of smite evil is an outsider with the evil subtype, an evil-aligned dragon, or an undead creature, the bonus to damage on the first successful attack increases to 2 points of damage per level the paladin possesses."

Also, I think Indomitable Soul's already covered by the new Divine Grace.

"At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all Saving Throws."

Am I missing something here? I feel like I am.

[Slipperychicken]

Am I missing something here? I feel like I am.

The Crusader is very similar to the Paladin, but what you're really looking for is the maneuvers. Those allow it versatility in combat all day, and significantly add to its staying power. It's basically the ultimate tank.

I suggest using the Cavalier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier) as a reference point. It seems like the closest thing PF has to "Paladin minus spells".

As far as losing spellcasting goes, Paladin spellcasting was pretty much a joke anyway. I'd say a boost to Divine Weapon, and maybe a few more Smites or lay on hands would be enough.

[ZDPhoenix]

The Crusader is very similar to the Paladin, but what you're really looking for is the maneuvers. Those allow it versatility in combat all day, and significantly add to its staying power. It's basically the ultimate tank.

I suggest using the Cavalier (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier) as a reference point. It seems like the closest thing PF has to "Paladin minus spells".

As far as losing spellcasting goes, Paladin spellcasting was pretty much a joke anyway. I'd say a boost to Divine Weapon, and maybe a few more Smites or lay on hands would be enough.

I get what you're saying. A few separate ideas so far:

Bonus Combat Feats (Maneuvers, Etc.)

Divine Weapon styled bonuses to armors or shields?

Extra Smites, LoH?

I think I'll poke the bear a bit and go over this with our troupe. See what sticks and what doesn't.

[AttilaTheGeek]

I only bolded those parts to show that some Crusader abilities were taken almost verbatim from the Paladin.

[Zunami]

Not trying to necro an old post here, but I'm looking into this myself, as I tend to play low-level campaigns where the paladin spellcasting (and ranger as well) is really a joke.

If you go about this differently, think about what the paladin already has without spells.

Lay on hands, smite, mercies, divine health & grace and divine bond (special weapon or special mount)

The paladin has good saves in Pathfinder, with two high saves, as well as the second highest HP and a good BAB, but he has sucky skill advancement.

If you take away spell-casting, the paladin no longer needs spell-craft for anything, and infact, a spell-less paladin might not even need to be a religious warrior, he good simply be a champion of nobility or goodness in general, but despite these options, knowledge religion still seems well founded.

There is a spell-less ranger option in pathfinder, and it offers up sneak attack, improved movement speed and some other options (reminding you of the 3.5 Scout class). The spell-less ranger replaces spellcraft with acrobatics, and gains some pretty neat bonuses to heal checks, becoming a very VERY competent healer using natural remedies. The ranger also gains Ranger-talents if he gives up spellcasting, similar to rogue talents.

The paladin should probably close mirror changes like these in power. Above suggests that spell-casting is definitely worth quite a bit.

I recommend giving him perception as a new skill, which makes him more useful against stealthing opponents.

Other than that, giving him Weapon Focus in either Longsword, Deity's favored weapon, Lance or Greatsword seems a decent option.

The ranger gains abilities seen in other classes that are similar when giving up spells. The rogue and the ranger are fairly similar, and thus the ranger gains some rogue stuff.

The paladin already gains a special mount, but to fully utilize this mount, he needs mounted combat. I suggest we give him this feat for free.

I recommend that instead of gaining further feats, at a set interval, the Paladin now advances to the next stage of previously mentioned feats, gaining weapon specialization and so on, and other mounted combat feats, all for free, allowing him to spend his already sparse normal feats on desired options.

A final suggestion, the paladin is normally required to choose between a special mount and a holy weapon. Letting him have both and ditching spell-casting seems like a fair trade, with no added extra abilities, because both of these abilities advance quite decently through the levels.

Quite interestingly, if the paladin chooses a holy weapon that isn't a lance, he also suddenly becomes very useful both in melee and on horseback should he have decided to funnel feats into mounted combat.