morphing weapons question

[Swaoeaeieu]

hi playground!

the description of the morphing enchantment states that you can change the weapon to any other weapon of the same size (light, one handed or two handed). but could it also change into improvised weapons? because a lot of things could be used as a weapon of some sort, could a morping weapon become all possible weapons as long as it fits the light/one/twohanded type?

i am wondering because the morphing gave me the idea of the weapons multi tool. a morphing dagger could become a screwdriver or any tool needed. so you would never carry around those pesky toolboxes ever again.

as a dm i would think it can't morph into improvised weapons, but as a player i like the idea, what do you guys (or gals) think?

[gurgleflep]

hi playground!

the description of the morphing enchantment states that you can change the weapon to any other weapon of the same size (light, one handed or two handed). but could it also change into improvised weapons? because a lot of things could be used as a weapon of some sort, could a morping weapon become all possible weapons as long as it fits the light/one/twohanded type?

i am wondering because the morphing gave me the idea of the weapons multi tool. a morphing dagger could become a screwdriver or any tool needed. so you would never carry around those pesky toolboxes ever again.

as a dm i would think it can't morph into improvised weapons, but as a player i like the idea, what do you guys (or gals) think?

Personally, I think that sounds like a pretty stinkin' awesome idea. As a DM (I'm pretty lax about things), I'd allow it but give it some limitations. As long as you had specifics on said improvised weapon, you could - in theory - also use it as a jack of all trades thing: a ladle, a large fork, a smiths hammer, a lockpick... Quite a few things could happen!

[ArcturusV]

I think I'd go more along the lines of "only things that were meant to be weapons".

Reminding me of the Familiar of Zero. The jewel encrusted golden showpiece in sword form, did not work with the "I can use all weapons" effects. A rusted blade that was ancient and past it's prime though? Gave full effect as it was made as a weapon.

Similarly that sort of spirit is what I'd run by. Sure you COULD jam a screwdriver into someone's skull, but that's not actually a weapon. It wouldn't trigger the enchantment.

[Swaoeaeieu]

ok so it isn't that i am reading the rules wrong. it is just op to interpretation of the player/dm? no clear rules somewhere on this?


you could - in theory - also use it as a jack of all trades thing: a ladle, a large fork, a smiths hammer, a lockpick...

aren't lockpicks super weak? how could you use that as a weapon? i see the use of a ladle, fork or hammer, but the delicate tools? i wonder...


I think I'd go more along the lines of "only things that were meant to be weapons".

it can only change into a form that was meant to be a weapon. but the morphing works according to my will. so if a want to use a canopener as a weapon that shape is clearly meant by me to be a weapon, would it work?
i totaly get the definition you want to use, but the exact wording leaves a lot to argue with :P

[ArcturusV]

See, there's the thing though. If it was MEANT to be a weapon, it's no longer a Canopener. It's a weapon. It's design would be entirely different, a la the difference between a butter knife and a dagger. And you wouldn't want to be using a dagger to spread jam over your toast. Wouldn't really work all that well.

And since DnD only counts the "proper" tools for the job, it means you might as well be using a bit of dirty string.

[mattie_p]

It is all a matter of perception. If I were a warforged, that can opener might well look like a weapon. :smallwink:

[Scow2]

Well... at least he'd be able to turn it into a rolling pin! (Anyone who doesn't believe those are weapons hasn't spent enough time around a competent mother)

[mattie_p]

Well... at least he'd be able to turn it into a rolling pin! (Anyone who doesn't believe those are weapons hasn't spent enough time around a competent mother)

Or a humanbane wooden spoon.

[Phelix-Mu]

Adamantine sporks can already be used for everything. And it's obviously a weapon (in the right hands).

Just invent a wondrous item, 2-5k, and have it be able to morph into any fine-diminutive sized item (within a certain gp value...no morphing it into a bowl made of solid diamond). Then you can use that item (in whatever form it's in) as an improvised weapon. I'm leaning toward the 2k gp end of the scale, but I'd have to consider how useful this would be.

[Swaoeaeieu]

It is all a matter of perception. If I were a warforged, that can opener might well look like a weapon. :smallwink:

Funny thing is, the char i intended this for is a warforged. :smallbiggrin:
i was going to build a hidden blade into his arm and enchant it with morphing and sizing and then go all Giga Drill Breaker (Gurenn lagann style) on their bums.

but then i started wandering if morphing could even change into a drill. and then i started wondering if i could turn it into the best multi-tool/weapon evar.

but i see the general opinion is no improvised weapons/tools. I do like the spork idea though, might give that one a try.

[Callin]

Morphing Property

The wielder of a morphing weapon can reshape it into any other weapon of the same type (light, one~handed, or two-handed) as a standard action. For instance, a morphing longsword could become a battleaxe or a composite longbow. If a single weapon created with the morphing property becomes a double weapon, only one end of the double weapon has the weapon's magical bonus. If a double weapon created with the morphing property becomes a single weapon, it can have the properties of either end of the original double weapon.
The properties of the other end are dormant but not lost; they become active again when the morphing weapon once again becomes a double weapon.

and from the SRD

Improvised Weapons
Sometimes objects not crafted to be weapons nonetheless see use in combat. Because such objects are not designed for this use, any creature that uses one in combat is considered to be nonproficient with it and takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls made with that object. To determine the size category and appropriate damage for an improvised weapon, compare its relative size and damage potential to the weapon list to find a reasonable match. An improvised weapon scores a threat on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a critical hit. An improvised thrown weapon has a range increment of 10 feet.

They are not crafted to be weapons but can be used as a weapon in a pinch so on that logic I would have to say no.

On the Rule of Cool though... man thats friggen awesome.

Just buy a screwdriver or something and for the same cost give it the ability to change to different tools.

[mattie_p]

Funny thing is, the char i intended this for is a warforged. :smallbiggrin:
i was going to build a hidden blade into his arm and enchant it with morphing and sizing and then go all Giga Drill Breaker (Gurenn lagann style) on their bums.

So... you are building this character to be this?

http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/locutus-figure-l.jpg

I'd rule that as long as the weapon is not considered a masterwork anything (lockpick, artisan tool, etc), you are probably good to go, based on rule of cool. Call it an improvised screwdriver or whatever (with -2 to your skill use rolls) and I think you have your balance.

[Quietus]

Hell, if someone wanted a morphing tool, I'd happily give them it for 2k gold, and let it count as a masterwork tool for any job it makes sense for. If someone wants a morphing battlefist or the like, and wants it to be a drill? I'm perfectly happy as a DM to say "Sure, pick an appropriate piercing weapon of that size and we'll call it a drill". Turn your one-handed battlefist into a shortspear, or a pick of some sort, and give it whatever appearance you want. Rule of cool!

[Draz74]

Yeah, similar to what Quietus is saying: I'd allow this, but for a slightly increased cost.

[gurgleflep]

aren't lockpicks super weak? how could you use that as a weapon? i see the use of a ladle, fork or hammer, but the delicate tools? i wonder...

It is quite weak and delicate, but maybe you could get a modified enchantment to do something along the lines of that? Talk it through with your DM.
"Many tooled" enchantment or something? :smallconfused:

[Swaoeaeieu]

So... you are building this character to be this?

http://www.starstore.com/acatalog/locutus-figure-l.jpg


no more like this guy:
http://www.imisstheoldschool.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/Inspector-Gadget-Go-Go-Gadget-Collection.jpg

but thank you guys for all the help. I know enough to take it up to my dm. we have some fun times coming up :D

new question however: is there a way of the morphing enchantment to also include light, one handed and two handed weapons? is there a version of this in the various books or do you have some ideas yourself?

[Jeff the Green]

Nobody's thought of shapesand yet? Seriously, it's my favorite item ever, and only 100 GP for 12 lb.

[Draz74]

Nobody's thought of shapesand yet? Seriously, it's my favorite item ever, and only 100 GP for 12 lb.

It's a great idea, but unfortunately the description given is ... lacking. How big an object can be made out of 12 lbs of Shapesand? Can it make expensive poisons? How stable are things made of Shapesand if their maker isn't actively mentally maintaining them? Why doesn't the description even specify that the objects made have to be nonmagical?!?

[Swaoeaeieu]

what book is shapesand in?

[Ashtagon]

what book is shapesand in?

It's hot outside.

[Swaoeaeieu]

is that a book, or a statement?

[Ashtagon]

is that a book, or a statement?

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050304a&page=1

Book.

[Karnith]

is that a book, or a statement?
Both. It's the joking name for the book Sandstorm. Frostburn is similarly called It's Cold Outside, and Stormwrack is called It's Wet Outside.

[Swaoeaeieu]

Both. It's the joking name for the book Sandstorm. Frostburn is similarly called It's Cold Outside, and Stormwrack is called It's Wet Outside.

Ah i see. I did not know that... thank you

[Ashtagon]

Both. It's the joking name for the book Sandstorm. Frostburn is similarly called It's Cold Outside, and Stormwrack is called It's Wet Outside.

You forgot Dungeonscape (It's Not Outside) and Cityscape (It's Outside).

[Karnith]

You forgot Dungeonscape (It's Not Outside) and Cityscape (It's Outside).
Well, there are a whole bunch of silly names for books if we're going that way (e.g. Underdark -> It's Dark Inside, or Manual of the Planes -> It's Outside Outside), but they never really caught on like the nicknames for the big 3 terrain books. Also, isn't Citycsape usually "It's Crowded Outside?"

[Gildedragon]

Provided you can make the morphing weapon be any size: yes

Try slapping on the sizing enchantment too to get around the handedness

[Swaoeaeieu]

sizing only makes a weapon bigger. not instantly a 2handed weapon right?

[Gildedragon]

A large light weapon is a one-handed medium or a two-handed small: as per the srd

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

For a bargain: enchant a single shuriken with these properties

[Swaoeaeieu]

i was going to build a morphing sizing dagger in my warforged arm. backup weapon for all situations :D

a sizing shuriken is hilarious! sizing is a swift action, so i guess you could trow is at normal size, say the magi word, and WHAM! giant shuriken in the face!

[Gildedragon]

Sorely magic word takes a standard action. And that's a waste. Morph the shuriken to a dagger.
One uses a shuriken to get the 1/50 ammo discount. Hell make it adamantine. :3

[Swaoeaeieu]

that is a very nice way to save money :3

But the description of the sizing enchantment states that the activation is a swift action. not a standard action because of magic.

[Gildedragon]

That's even better!
I have to update some character sheets.

[Swaoeaeieu]

it has been close to 2,5 months since my group last played. with the weird tricks i learned on these forums my dm is gonna hate me :D

thanks playground!

[Deth Muncher]

Heh, I didn't know about the other "It's ___ Outside" names other than Hot/Cold/Wet. That was hilarious.

Back on topic, though. Personally, were I DMing, I'd let you do it, on the condition that whatever you were changing the thing into could actually reasonably be used as a weapon. Like, no lockpicks - they're tiny and flimsy, and let's be serious, if you used it, and you BROKE it? You'd be super upset. But like a screwdriver? Yeah man, other than it possibly being anachronistic to D&D? But then again, whatever's a go in your world is good, so go for it.

Now, back to the other idea of the "Manytool" kind of thing, I feel like that SHOULD be its own Wondrous Item, and it could be whatever tool up to X size you needed it to be, or possibly just as much as you could coax out of it - like, say you needed a sledgehammer, but you only had enough mass there to make the head of the hammer, so it morphs to be able to fit onto a wooden shaft and bam, there you go.

[Swaoeaeieu]

we play in eberron. so a a weapon turning into a hammer would not be the weirdest thing around. And for the manytool: ill just get some shapesand. that stuff is wonderfully vague :)

[Draz74]

that is a very nice way to save money :3

You spelled "cheesy" wrong.

Seriously, there's a whole handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=11763.0) on just how cheesy things can get when you start enchanting shuriken ...

[Swaoeaeieu]

One uses a shuriken to get the 1/50 ammo discount. Hell make it adamantine. :3

How do i calculate the price of one (1) adamantine shuriken +1 with morphing and sizing enchantment?

[Callin]

JaronK needs to be flogged for that guide :smallbiggrin:

I love it btw.

[Gildedragon]

Adamantine: 60gp
+2 (morphing & +1): 8000/50
Sizing: flat 5k cost

[Swaoeaeieu]

also 5k for a single shuriken? even if normal enchantments go for 1/50th of the price?

[Gildedragon]

I've been looking for the guidelines for fixed price enhancements on ammo but can't find them. As such I give the most conservative price estimate.

[Rijan_Sai]

As an aside, I would like to present the Lockpick as a Viable Weapon! (http://telebunny.net/talkingtime/showpost.php?p=1186135&postcount=125)

:smallamused: Sadly, it's Self Only...though I suppose a case could be made for Coup de Gras?