[PF] Zen Archer Monk

[Praystation]

Morning All,

Just looking for some tips and some general direction relating to Zen Archer Monks. See... i mentioned my interest in them to a fellow player and they didnt seem wholly impressed which to be honest, shocked me as i thought they were meant to be the premier archer to many points of view.

Am i mistaked and does the Ranger actually beat the Zen or even the Archer Fighter?

Either way... i would like to play a Zen Archer Monk soon.

Could anyone offer me some insight into stat priority and beginning feats? Just to have that archer who is useful and to put a new spin on something?

Hope you can help

[Chained Birds]

- Max out Wisdom

- Get a Guided (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided) Bow.

- Be Level 3 Zen Archer Monk. If you are playing at a lower level, you will need average to good stats in Strength and Dexterity (Scores of 14-16). If you are allowed the Guided Bow and start at Lvl 3+, you won't need Str anymore; though you will want at least a Dex of 13 to qualify for the Deadly Aim Feat.

- Take Qinggong (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/qinggong-monk) Archetype as well to trade out useless Monk abilities for much more versatile spells.

- Get the Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat) Feat! This should be on any ranged character's feat list.

- Hammer the Gap (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/hammer-the-gap-combat) is also a good feat, though it may take a while to get it.

----

Another Playgrounder made a comparison of all the best ranged class types and found Zen Archer to be one of the top. Inquisitor and (I think) Paladin beat it out in higher level games, though Zen topped in the Mid Level after it got to level 3.

[gartius]

guide on zen archery
http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=2858.0

i dont know why you think zen archery is inferior. it is really a solid option and is very front loaded class.

http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2nix8?Zen-and-the-Art-of-Monk-Maintenance-A-Guide
shows that by itself it can solo encounters. it is powerful. it is strong. it can flurry like a boss.

[Praystation]

Thats awesome.
Thankyou both.
And i never said they were inferior - i was and still am very interested to play them i just have very limited information on them and have never seen one in action for our groups.
As my internet access is limited at the moment - guided is the enchant that lets you use Wisdom for Damage and to hit? Or do i recall incorrectly?

If i manage to get that enchant do i only need to worry about Wis and Dex?
If i dont get guided, i go for wis, Dex and a modest Str?

Wonder if i can see that guide from here....
Only one way to find out

[Ravens_cry]

Not much Dex if you are starting past third level. Also, a word of warning about Guided. While made for a Pathfinder adventure, that was back when Paizo was using 3.5 rules directly. It has never been imported to the Pathfinder rules.
Some DM, not all, but some, won't use it if they are interested in a 'pure' Pathfinder game. Also, yes, it is Wisdom to hit and damage.
Also, don't forget Con. You might think you don't need much as an archer, but everyone has to make Fortitude saves and you'll be doing such awesome damage you will start to get targeted. If you are starting above 2nd level and can get Guided, I'd go Wisdom, Dex/Con, ignoring Strength entirely, as at third level you get Wisdom to hit as a class feature.
As for feats, Clustered Shots is essential. Instead of taking DR off every shot, you get it once at the end. This is invaluable.

[Praystation]

Not much Dex if you are starting past third level. Also, a word of warning about Guided. While made for a Pathfinder adventure, that was back when Paizo was using 3.5 rules directly. It has never been imported to the Pathfinder rules.
Some DM, not all, but some, won't use it if they are interested in a 'pure' Pathfinder game. Also, yes, it is Wisdom to hit and damage.
Also, don't forget Con. You might think you don't need much as an archer, but everyone has to make Fortitude saves and you'll be doing such awesome damage you will start to get targeted. If you are starting above 2nd level and can get Guided, I'd go Wisdom, Dex/Con, ignoring Strength entirely, as at third level you get Wisdom to hit as a class feature.
As for feats, Clustered Shots is essential. Instead of taking DR off every shot, you get it once at the end. This is invaluable.


And if i cant get guided - Dex and Wis become equally vital with a splash of strength for str adjusted bows?
Really not sure if i could get guided or not...
Depends who the DM is i think

[stack]

After you hit 3 dex isn't needed other than a minimum for the feats already mentioned. Without guided you need strength high to do damage using a composite bow (preferabbly with the enchantment to make it auto-adjust to your STR mod, which costs a flat 1,000 GP).

[HylianKnight]

Note that the Guided weapon feature was meant to be used like it's 3.5 counterpart - melee weapons only. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=581?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#29036

However RAW neglect that clarification, so go crazy if you really want to.

[grarrrg]

BAM! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12902283&postcount=9)
It's about a year old, but it is still a solid comparison of Fighter vs. Inquisitor vs. Monk vs. Paladin vs. Ranger archery.

Levels 1 and 2, Monk is poor, as you don't have WIS-to-hit yet, so you either 'wasted' point buy on high DEX, or you just can't hit due to low-DEX (low is 13).

Around level 6 Monk starts to get rolling.

After level 10-ish Monk doesn't get as many bonuses anymore, so you may want to Multiclass out.


And you really only "need" about 13 DEX for a Zen Archer. The few feats that require 15+ DEX can be picked up as Bonus Feats (Monk ignores Reqs), or they aren't that needed.
May as well bump DEX to 14 though, just for the extra AC/Initiative/etc...

[Ravens_cry]

Note that the Guided weapon feature was meant to be used like it's 3.5 counterpart - melee weapons only. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=581?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#29036

However RAW neglect that clarification, so go crazy if you really want to.

Actually, despite the wording, I doubt it was meant to be melee only, though it works for that as well. After all, the example weapon it is used on in the module it comes from . . . is a crossbow.

[nyarlathotep]

Note that the Guided weapon feature was meant to be used like it's 3.5 counterpart - melee weapons only. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2l7ns&page=581?Ask-James-Jacobs-ALL-your-Questions-Here#29036

However RAW neglect that clarification, so go crazy if you really want to.

As noted above that is insanely silly and makes no sense.

[Praystation]

Actually, despite the wording, I doubt it was meant to be melee only, though it works for that as well. After all, the example weapon it is used on in the module it comes from . . . is a crossbow.

If i am unable to get the guided property - which is possible.
(Is there a PF version of this or is it purely 3.5?)
Would that mean i need to bymp strength up to at least a +1 or 2.
Keep wisdom as high as possible.
Keep dex moderate: +1 or 2 for AC and Init?

[grarrrg]

If i am unable to get the guided property - which is possible.
(Is there a PF version of this or is it purely 3.5?)
Would that mean i need to bymp strength up to at least a +1 or 2.
Keep wisdom as high as possible.
Keep dex moderate: +1 or 2 for AC and Init?

Guided is the only way to get WIS to damage that I know of.
Well, you don't "need" to bump your STR, but it would be handy.
WIS high yes, DEX you can easily get away with only 13 or 14 (after level 3 when the "zen" kicks in).

You'll probably want to put Adaptive (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/adaptive) on your composite bow (if Guided is out), it gets around all the "Less STR/Wasted STR" problems.

The following feats are the ones you "need" 15+ DEX for, followed by the reason you don't "need" 15+ DEX.

*Manyshot, 17 DEX, Flurry of Bows is equivalent/better (and can NOT be used together), can also be taken as a Req-less bonus feat at 6.

*Improved Precise Shot, 19 DEX, can be taken as a req-less bonus feat at 6.

*Improved Snap Shot 15 DEX, Greater Snap Shot 17 DEX, the only feats worth considering, as Reflexive Shot at level 9 is basically Snap Shot, but never improves.

There ya go. Unless you _REALLY_ want to make -Ranged- AoO's, all you need is 13/14 DEX.
I'd say take Precise Shot at level 6 and ignore the others.


And if the game goes long enough, seriously consider multiclassing somewhere around level 10:
*8 gives a Flurry attack
*9 is Bow-AoO's
*10 is a Bonus Feat
*11 gets you Trick Shot which lets you spend Ki to IGNORE up to and including TOTAL COVER/CONCEALMENT!
*12 grants nothing special, but if you went to 11 it rounds off all your numbers (saves, Bab, better Unarmed Damage, another AC bonus, another Movement bonus, etc...)

[JusticeZero]

At level 1-2, NOBODY has their characters running on all cylinders. Almost nobody will care that you cant get much out of a strength damage bow that it took you one level to acquire and which will be somewhat obsolete in one level. You're still contributing a lot more than the Wizard.

[Bhaakon]

At level 1-2, NOBODY has their characters running on all cylinders.

Level 1-2 is the fighter's wheelhouse, baby!

Kind of down hill from there, though.

[Ravens_cry]

If i am unable to get the guided property - which is possible.
(Is there a PF version of this or is it purely 3.5?)
Would that mean i need to bymp strength up to at least a +1 or 2.
Keep wisdom as high as possible.
Keep dex moderate: +1 or 2 for AC and Init?
+2, even +3 if you pick the right race. Strength I would go for +2 as well, again, more depending on race. Con, basically everyone needs Con. But Wisdom is key. Zen Archer is the Non-MAD Monk. Clerics are MAD-er, Fighters are MAD-er.
As for GUided, it's 3.5 only, but it was made by Paizo for a Pathfinder module, so . . .ask your DM.

[JusticeZero]

It isn't on the PF SRD, so I wouldn't allow it. It should be at least a monk feat.. onestly it should just be baked into the class somehow.

[Turion]

It isn't on the PF SRD, so I wouldn't allow it. It should be at least a monk feat.. onestly it should just be baked into the class somehow.

Well, actually (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided)...

[Burnheart]

Well, actually (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core/weapon-property---guided)...

JusticeZero is likely refering to the PRD (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/) which is pazio's official online reference for all pathfinder rules and does not have Guided posted in it.

[JusticeZero]

I couldn't find it at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons.

[Bhaakon]

I couldn't find it at http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons.

That's because it's in the "non-core (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapons-non-core)" weapon property section.

[JusticeZero]

Right, which means it's not on the list of allowed properties. There's a lot of bizarre stuff once you leave the core, and I have no desire to pick through all of it to have to do case by case on everything.

In any case, you shouldn't need a specific magic item property to make your character functional. At the least it should be made a feat.

[Ravens_cry]

Zen archer is quite functional without it, already getting Wisdom to hit, so it's just icing on the cake.

[JusticeZero]

It's a lot of damage. Not counting Con, you shouldn't need to pump more (or less) than two attributes to run most of the show, imo.

[Daftendirekt]

There's a lot of bizarre stuff once you leave the core, and I have no desire to pick through all of it to have to do case by case on everything.

I pity you and those you play with.

[grarrrg]

Can we be done with the whole "Guided" thing and get a little more back to the actual topic now please?

To Summarize:
Are you playing PFS?
If Yes>Then no Guided.
If No>ASK YOUR DM!

[Praystation]

We are playing Pathfinder and we have (if ever) very rarely used any 3.5 stuff. I would love the guided but wont count on it.
Guessing without guided i need to look at Wis for the most obvious stuff. Dex a bit for AC, Initiative and some skills and and Str for the sake of str adjusted?
I only really have one dump stat dont I?

How important is Str to get damage out of a ZAM if i dont have guided as an option?

[Chained Birds]

I would almost say try to get the following results (Without Guided):

Str: 14
Dex: 13-14
Con: 14
Int: -
Wis: 17-18 (Or higher with Racial Bonuses)
Cha: -

Though these results would be tricky to obtain without a high point buy (Dumping Int and Cha completely) or decent rolls.

And you want these feats as soon as you are able to take them:

Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat)
Clustered Shots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/clustered-shots-combat)

Without Guided, Adaptive (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/adaptive) is your best investment for a Magic Enchantment (And pretty cheap). And seeing as you run off Wisdom to hit past Lvl 2, you are free to buff your size to gain more strength and a higher damaging weapon. Though gaining a Bull's Strength from a potion of friendly Caster would work too.

Lastly, don't forget to combo the Zen Archer archetype with Qinggong Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/qinggong-monk) Archetype for additional utility and benefits.

[Praystation]

I would almost say try to get the following results (Without Guided):

Str: 14
Dex: 13-14
Con: 14
Int: -
Wis: 17-18 (Or higher with Racial Bonuses)
Cha: -

Though these results would be tricky to obtain without a high point buy (Dumping Int and Cha completely) or decent rolls.

And you want these feats as soon as you are able to take them:

Deadly Aim (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/deadly-aim-combat)
Clustered Shots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/clustered-shots-combat)

Without Guided, Adaptive (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/adaptive) is your best investment for a Magic Enchantment (And pretty cheap). And seeing as you run off Wisdom to hit past Lvl 2, you are free to buff your size to gain more strength and a higher damaging weapon. Though gaining a Bull's Strength from a potion of friendly Caster would work too.

Lastly, don't forget to combo the Zen Archer archetype with Qinggong Monk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/qinggong-monk) Archetype for additional utility and benefits.



I will of course go through the Qinggong again but not sure there is a whole lot that spoke to me.
Dont think it would surpass level 10 (could be wrong but initial thoughts)
So there arent a whole lto i think i would want to or be worthwhile swapping out.
This was the ones i was looking at in the Qinggong manual so maybe it wasnt looking at ZAM as more than Monk

[Paul H]

Hi

There is an Oracle ability that allows you to use your Cha instead of dex for AC ref saves if you want to go that way.

Also - Plumekith Aasimars have +2 Dex +2 Wis, (no dump stat) and can have a Racial Trait that grants +1 to confirm crits with bows. Think their SLA is See Invis, plus the usual Aasimar stuff like Darkvision.

As already said, Zen Archers have more feats than a fighter until at least 6th lvl. One lvl of Ranger will get you Fav Enemy bonuses, plus allows use wands of Gravity Bow (Increases wpn dam of bow as if wpn was enlarged).

They're also PFS legal if you're part of that.

Thanks
Paul H

[grarrrg]

There is an Oracle ability that allows you to use your Cha instead of dex for AC ref saves if you want to go that way.

No, he still needs 13 DEX to take ranged feats, and has no other use for CHA, it is a solid dump stat.


Also - Plumekith Aasimars have +2 Dex +2 Wis, (no dump stat) and can have a Racial Trait that grants +1 to confirm crits with bows. Think their SLA is See Invis, plus the usual Aasimar stuff like Darkvision.

There are actually quite a few races that give good stat boosts, although a top consideration should be Human. The +Skill every level will help, especially if you dump INT (which, if you only have a 15pointbuy or worse, you're kind of going to have to dump it). And the Bonus feat is pretty sweet as well.

[Chained Birds]

Hmm, does Hammer The Gap and Clustered Shots work with each other?

Cause I'm just thinking about what feats he'd actually want, seeing as the archetype sets up almost everything for you.

[Daftendirekt]

There are actually quite a few races that give good stat boosts, although a top consideration should be Human. The +Skill every level will help, especially if you dump INT (which, if you only have a 15pointbuy or worse, you're kind of going to have to dump it). And the Bonus feat is pretty sweet as well.

Dwarves are actually one of the best races for a zen archer. They have +wis, and every character ever loves +con. All their other dwarven goodies are fun too.

[JusticeZero]

Hmm, does Hammer The Gap and Clustered Shots work with each other?
Clustered Shots (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/clustered-shots-combat), Hammer The Gap (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/hammer-the-gap-combat)
"When you use a full-attack action to make multiple ranged weapon attacks against the same opponent..."
"When you take a full-attack action, each consecutive hit against the same opponent..."

They both share the same trigger, and there's no indication that there's any sort've exclusivity. So yes, they should stack.

[The Boz]

I am very eager to get playtesters and as much feedback as I can, so I shall shamelessly leave a link to my Monk 2.0 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13536035#post13536035) here.

Other than that, I stick to what people before me have said. Number-of-attack-based damage multipliers work wonders with flurry of shots.