is Haley a Draketooth?

[sleepy]

So I was reading over some of the older comics, and got to the part where she says (in cryptogram) "Elan, it turns out I may not be exactly what you would call..."

"Human" is one obvious end to that sentence. And the way she loves counting gold pieces, being part dragon would add up.
Then, a couple things fell into place
1) She and her dad have red hair (or, her dad *did*, in flashbacks. his nickname used to be "Red", also)
2) Her dad is paranoid and untrusting of anyone not family (the Draketooth signature)
3) V's "familicide" spell chained from person to person, older to younger
4) Haley's dad was in Tarquin's prison at the time... which has an antimagic field.


If this adds up the way I think it does, it might also be worth bringing up Eugene Greenhilt's prophecy from the first adventure ("when the goat turns, red strikes true"). That "fulfillment" always struck me as a little unsatisfactory... Nale being a goat seemed a bit of a stretch, it's the only time anyone's ever referred to Haley as "Red" (unlike her father), and she made the shot by rolling a natural 20 rather than by power of plot.

Interesting?

[sam79]

So I was reading over some of the older comics, and got to the part where she says (in cryptogram) "Elan, it turns out I may not be exactly what you would call..."

"Human" is one obvious end to that sentence. And the way she loves counting gold pieces, being part dragon would add up.
Then, a couple things fell into place
1) She and her dad have red hair (or, her dad *did*, in flashbacks. his nickname used to be "Red", also)
2) Her dad is paranoid and untrusting of anyone not family (the Draketooth signature)
3) V's "familicide" spell chained from person to person, older to younger
4) Haley's dad was in Tarquin's prison at the time... which has an antimagic field.


If this adds up the way I think it does, it might also be worth bringing up Eugene Greenhilt's prophecy from the first adventure ("when the goat turns, red strikes true"). That "fulfillment" always struck me as a little unsatisfactory... Nale being a goat seemed a bit of a stretch, it's the only time anyone's ever referred to Haley as "Red" (unlike her father), and she made the shot by rolling a natural 20 rather than by power of plot.

Interesting?

Interesting, yes. It is a theory that has been brought up before. Likely, no.

While the characteristics you cite are suggestive (though not conclusive), I think the whole Familicide thing puts the tin hat on this theory. I don't get how Haley's dad being in an anti-magic field would afford Haley any protection from the spell.

[Dr.Epic]

Then how the heck did she survive the familicide spell?:smallconfused:

[The Succubus]

Pretty much what Epic said. Given that she still has a pulse, I'm inclined to say no.

[Psyren]

This theory has come up before Familicide (and is almost invariably based on the red hair), but now that we know the full extent of V's spell it's highly unlikely, because it would have killed Haley.



3) V's "familicide" spell chained from person to person, older to younger

It also chained younger to older; we know this because it killed Penelope due to having a child via Orrin.

[Pigkappa]

- Her skin tone is too fair.
- She has no markings on her skin while the recently dead members of the family we saw had them.

[Procyonpi]

No.

Seriously, I thought this was settled like, a decade ago.

[Gift Jeraff]

While I don't think Haley is a Draketooth, the Cloister spell may have prevented Familicide from tracking her. Haley thought Cloister would protect them from Chuck's scrying when they arrived, and Celia (who can sense abjurations) didn't correct her. Then the Familicide takes place a few days or so after that so the Cloister may have still been active.

[Morty]

Cloister may or may not have prevented it, but I find it doubtful that a bog-standard anti-magic field would. After all, the spell killed black dragons, who are naturally magic-resistant.

[Kish]

People who think Cloister was an "immune to any spell Rich wants anyone it's on to be immune to" blank check need to reread the strip where Celia spells out exactly what the spell does and doesn't do.

In the meantime, suffice to say that it didn't make Haley immune to Tsukiko's Electric Orbs and it wouldn't have made her immune to Familicide, had anyone cast Familicide on someone related to her.

[B. Dandelion]

We see a guy in the anti-magic cells getting zapped with Familicide. Page two, panel four. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html)

[raymundo]

Then how the heck did she survive the familicide spell?:smallconfused:

Easy - she didn't.

Now that's something to ponder about

[Gift Jeraff]

We see a guy in the anti-magic cells getting zapped with Familicide. Page two, panel four. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html)

That might not necessarily be in one of Tarquin's prisons (though AMF prison cells are of course not exclusive to Tarquin's empires, as seen in Azure City).

[Water_Bear]

Haley is Gerrard and Redcloak's illegitimate half-camel son. As logic dictates. :smalltongue:

[Fish]

Let's presume your assessment of the older-to-younger chain is accurate, for the sake of argument.

If it always tries the older relative first; if it is designed so that when it cannot affect the older relative, it skips every sub-branch in the chain...

...then it would not have killed the Draketooth clan. Girard was dead at the time of the casting. Ergo, older relative unavailable and offspring are spared.

[The Succubus]

Actually, this could be a fun new game: Spot The Draketooths!

Go through the comic and look for anyone with red hair, because only Draketeeth :smalltongue: have red hair. See how many you can spot! :smallbiggrin:

[Lord Torath]

Plus, if Haley was a Draketooth, either her mother or father would also have been a Draketooth, and she and her Draketooth parent would have lived at the pyramid on the Western Continent. And not raised by both her parents (the Draketooths are even more paranoid that the Starshines, in that not even spouses are considered part of the family) in Greysky City on the Eastern Continent.

[Mastikator]

Then how the heck did she survive the familicide spell?:smallconfused:

She's secretly undead.

[Leirus]

You have the Draketooth family tree here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html). As you can see, the most closely related Haley could be to the Draketooths is through a theoretical brother or sister of Giraud's grandmother, which would make the connection irrelevant. Otherwise she would have been killed by familicide. Even if you were to accept that Cloister did protect her from it, Ian Starshine is still alive.

So, in short, I do not think so.

[Taelas]

This theory has come up before Familicide (and is almost invariably based on the red hair), but now that we know the full extent of V's spell it's highly unlikely, because it would have killed Haley.



It also chained younger to older; we know this because it killed Penelope due to having a child via Orrin.

That doesn't actually mean anything for his theory, though, since the link for Penelope was via Orrin (through their child), and if Ian is the link for Haley, then blocking that link would keep Haley out of it.


Let's presume your assessment of the older-to-younger chain is accurate, for the sake of argument.

If it always tries the older relative first; if it is designed so that when it cannot affect the older relative, it skips every sub-branch in the chain...

...then it would not have killed the Draketooth clan. Girard was dead at the time of the casting. Ergo, older relative unavailable and offspring are spared.

The spell clearly follows the link of dead family members. I am unsure why you think this means it also takes those who are placed in an anti-magic field. :smallconfused:

The theory being posited is that if a person who constitutes a link in the Familicide-chain is in an anti-magic field, the anti-magic field prevents the chain from following that link, which causes it to skip everyone that would have been affected through it -- thus preventing it from affecting Haley and Ian.

I don't personally buy it, but there does not seem to be any direct evidence against the logic -- it's sound enough.

[SaintRidley]

I don't personally buy it, but there does not seem to be any direct evidence against the logic -- it's sound enough.

Well, the fact that Girard was already dead and the spell still took out all his descendants, not caring that he was dead, suggests that finding a dead/magically shielded person didn't stop the spell from continuing on and doing what it would do if that person were alive/not magically shielded.

[B. Dandelion]

How could "blocking" Ian from the spell shield Haley? Everybody related to Ian is also related to Haley. If the spell were able to kill him, it would have been able to kill her in the SAME step.

Step 1: Kill everyone related to the target creature.
Step 2: Kill everyone related to anyone killed in step 1.

If Ian is related to the target creature, so is Haley. If Ian is related to somebody related to the target creature... so is Haley.

Somebody like Penelope could have been spared from the spell if a connection were "blocked", since the connection was through her CHILD. Not everyone related to her child was related to her. But you ARE related to everyone your parents are related to. So if Ian's vulnerable through a relative, Haley's vulnerable through the same relative.

[Snails]

Cloister may or may not have prevented it, but I find it doubtful that a bog-standard anti-magic field would. After all, the spell killed black dragons, who are naturally magic-resistant.

Good reasoning. Every epic spell has a decent chance of smashing through standard anti-magic. Plus we have reason to believe that not a single dragon survived being touched by Familicide, which is a pretty startling effect given the robust defenses common to dragons. If Familicide can defeat 100% of the dragons' SR, it can be expected to defeat normal anti-magic 100% of the time as well.

Besides, my understanding is that Haley and her father are visitors to this continent. No reason to expect a deeper connection.

[Chantelune]

As other said before, Haley being a Draketooth is very unlikely. As for the prophecy, Nale is a "goat" in the sense that he has a goatee, as Haley herself mentioned just before Roy figured it out. As for the natural 20, it is a plot driven success. This is not a game of D&D, they make "rolls", yes, but not really in the litteral sense. In that regard, you can safely decide that it's fate that decide that she rolled a 20.

If this was a game, the DM would have either prevent her to roll when she state that she shoot at Nale or said it hit regardless of the die.

[Psyren]

Actually, this could be a fun new game: Spot The Draketooths!

Go through the comic and look for anyone with red hair, because only Draketeeth :smalltongue: have red hair. See how many you can spot! :smallbiggrin:

This.


That doesn't actually mean anything for his theory, though, since the link for Penelope was via Orrin (through their child), and if Ian is the link for Haley, then blocking that link would keep Haley out of it.

The two statements in my post were actually unrelated. I was debunking the theory with the first one (Haley is alive), and specifically refuting the quoted point in my second (Familicide does not merely go older to younger as we saw with Penelope.) The Penelope-Orrin bit was unrelated to "Haley Draketooth."

[Zmeoaice]

She has no markings on her skin while the recently dead members of the family we saw had them.

That's not a natural marking, it's a tattoo.

[Gandariel]

I will answer that question with a question.

Is Haley dead?

[SaintRidley]

That's not a natural marking, it's a tattoo.

Looks like a tattoo, but seems more like a visual mark of Draconic ancestry (and not necessarily always on the face - see bottom left woman (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0841.html)). Most would take it to be a tattoo, but I feel confident in saying that it's with them from birth.

[Taelas]

How could "blocking" Ian from the spell shield Haley? Everybody related to Ian is also related to Haley. If the spell were able to kill him, it would have been able to kill her in the SAME step.

Step 1: Kill everyone related to the target creature.
Step 2: Kill everyone related to anyone killed in step 1.

If Ian is related to the target creature, so is Haley. If Ian is related to somebody related to the target creature... so is Haley.

Yes, she is -- but her connection is through Ian; every gene that would be related to the Draketooths come from him. The spell seems to spread from subject to subject, thus it is possible that if a given familial connection is broken beyond the limits of the spell, as it might be while the subject is with an anti-magic field, the spell cannot find a familial connection.

It is more than possible that the spell doesn't need to spread from one person to the next, but we don't know the particulars.

The reason doesn't have to be perfect or iron-clad, it simply has to be a possibility. I don't agree that Haley and Ian are related to the Draketooths, and I do not personally think an anti-magic field would stop the spell, but as far as I can see, the possibility, however remote it may seem, does exist.


Well, the fact that Girard was already dead and the spell still took out all his descendants, not caring that he was dead, suggests that finding a dead/magically shielded person didn't stop the spell from continuing on and doing what it would do if that person were alive/not magically shielded.

You are equating being dead with being magically shielded. They are not remotely similar conditions, so why are you doing that? :smallconfused:

The fact that Girard is dead proves that the spell works across dead generations. That's all it proves. It has no bearing on whether someone could be shielded from the effect by being in an anti-magic field.


Looks like a tattoo, but seems more like a visual mark of Draconic ancestry (and not necessarily always on the face - see bottom left woman (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0841.html)). Most would take it to be a tattoo, but I feel confident in saying that it's with them from birth.

There's none on the baby girl. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0816.html) While we only see her face, it's at least indicative.

I personally believe it's a tattoo, since that's all we've ever seen it referred to as. Dragon blood would be very diluted after so many generations.

[Fish]

What evidence is there that it goes from oldest to youngest? The chain could simply be "closest in physical space."

[Alaris]

Eh, I could see Cloister protecting Haley. I mean, Familicide seeks out the descendants of the targeted creature, presumably 'divining' them in some manner. Cloister prevents any divination of any kind.

Comparing it to Orbs, where the person has to see the target, and shoot at them... well, it's not quite right. Familicide is a decidedly different spell.

Now, I'm one who doesn't believe Haley is a Draketooth, but I am simply making the argument for Cloister being an appropriate defense against Familicide.

[B. Dandelion]

Yes, she is -- but her connection is through Ian; every gene that would be related to the Draketooths come from him.

No -- that's not how it works. The spell wouldn't kill Ian and then "spread to" Haley. They're both affected in the same round. Because either they're both related to the target creature (Momma Black Dragon) or they're both related to someone who was related to her.


It is more than possible that the spell doesn't need to spread from one person to the next, but we don't know the particulars.



Step 1: Kill everyone with the original target's blood. This is a simple yes/no effect: Is a creature (the secondary target) related by blood to the original target at all, in any way? If yes, kill it. If no, move on. Number of generations or percentage of blood or direction doesn't matter.

Step 2: Kill everyone who shares blood with any of the people killed in Step 1. Think of it as killing everyone descended from (or siblings to) any and all still-living ancestors of each secondary target. So if Penelope had a grandfather on one side and a great-grandmother on the other side who were still alive, every person who could trace their blood back to either of those people would be dead, because Penelope's daughter carries both of their bloods. If a person can only trace their blood through (say) Penelope's already-dead great-great-great-grandfather, then they're safe. Thus cousins and second-cousins and the like are all dead, but more distant genetic relations are not. It is possible for some cousins to survive if all older generations were already dead, yes, but Vaarsuvius wasn't really likely to take the time to make that distinction while sobbing on a dungeon hallway floor.

This idea that Haley would be shielded if Ian were comes entirely from looking at the visual effect rather than the actual description of the spell, both from Vaarsuvius and from the Giant. From the written description, if Ian were vulnerable, Haley would be too, so if Ian were shielded by the anti-magic field that would save his life but NOT hers.

If you want to take up an alternate interpretation based on the visual effect... well, okay, although I think you're overstating artistic license. The "chained lightning" effect is suitably dramatic but I don't think it has any bearing on who actually lives or dies.

[Gift Jeraff]

V's tropical birds were able to get past the Cloister, though.

[Xelbiuj]

Can you scry on people in an anti-magic field?
The spell has a ridiculous save or die when it targets you but perhaps the save for it finding you is a lot lower? Couldn't make it any better without increasing the spellcraft dc. /not a D&D expert

I dunno, just saying it's not impossible.
No real evidence to say she is though. So, I doubt it.

[Porthos]

I'm not quite sure why people think an Anti-Magic Field would be more than a piddling little speedbump to a spell like Familicide. :smallconfused:

Second, don't forget that Cloister was specifically felled by TWO seperate Epic Level Magic effects. Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0510.html) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0651.html).

So that objection is pretty much tossed out as well.

No, anyone related to the Draketooths is D-E-A-D. With the possible (and getting less possibile with every passing strip) exception if they personally had Epic Level magic on hand to try and protect themselves. But since neither Haley nor Ian had access to said Epicness, I'm gonna say....

No. No Haley is not a Draketooth.

[SaintRidley]

You are equating being dead with being magically shielded. They are not remotely similar conditions, so why are you doing that? :smallconfused:


The fact that Girard is dead proves that the spell works across dead generations. That's all it proves. It has no bearing on whether someone could be shielded from the effect by being in an anti-magic field.



If you're dead, you are protected from the effect. Nothing to find or hit in a dead person. If it's actually traveling through the blood line, then it should stop there at that big old hole. Living and dead are two different states, and if a spell targets and kills living relatives, it certainly won't affect dead ones. And if it moves through them to find the next, it won't move through the dead either. Like how some suppose an anti-magic field would block the spell's traveling.

Of course, this is granting the pretty flimsy premise that an anti-magic field would stand up to an epic spell (particularly one so powerful as this one), considering that they often don't. If I don't grant that, and I really shouldn't in the first place, then I don't have to say anything about Girard.

Secondly, the spell doesn't travel through the bloodline*. The spell kills you if you're a valid target, the end. No protection from dead relations, and no protection from having a relation miraculously survive via anti-magic (nor are they at all likely to survive).

If your blood says Mama Black Dragon, you die. If your blood says "Being whose blood says Mama Black Dragon," you die too. B. Dandelion elaborates this with Rich's words, but that's the gist.


*Well, step two kind of does, but in the specific case of the Draketooth clan and potential Draketooth members, it's irrelevant, due to them being pretty much directly related through their dragon being a direct relation of Mama Black.

[Heksefatter]

I suppose that you could make some incredibly contrieved argument that Haley would be protected by the cloister and Ian through Haley. But on the other hand, the only thing supporting the theory is that the Starshines are redhaired and paranoid, and so are the Draketooths.

But even the cloister argument is highly unlikely. The cloister spell would have protected Haley by having her being "untargettable." However, the Draketooths were also prevented from being targetted with likely epic magic.

[Fish]

What evidence is there that it goes from oldest to youngest? The chain could simply be "closest in physical space."
Also, to add to my own post, let's not confuse the way the spell works, with the way it is drawn.

[SowZ]

http://ia.media-imdb.com/images/M/MV5BNDE1NzczMTk2OV5BMl5BanBnXkFtZTcwNTA5MjkyMw@@._ V1._SY314_CR5,0,214,314_.jpg

[Taelas]

This idea that Haley would be shielded if Ian were comes entirely from looking at the visual effect rather than the actual description of the spell, both from Vaarsuvius and from the Giant. From the written description, if Ian were vulnerable, Haley would be too, so if Ian were shielded by the anti-magic field that would save his life but NOT hers.

If you want to take up an alternate interpretation based on the visual effect... well, okay, although I think you're overstating artistic license. The "chained lightning" effect is suitably dramatic but I don't think it has any bearing on who actually lives or dies.

Yes, the Giant's comment regarding step one pretty much nails it. Thank you for providing the quote.

[Sunken Valley]

Cloister wore off. Xykon (presumably is LV27) cast it a week after new year. Haley skipped Azure City 16 weeks later. There are 52 weeks in a year (if not then its Burlew's job to tell us). Belkar was given 6 weeks left to live in a diagnosis by Roy. Meaning there was a 45 week period in which Roy was dead. Take away Haley leaving that's 29 weeks where she wasn't in a cloister before V rocked the world. Xykon would need to be 29+ and have cast Cloister the day Haley left for that to work.

Now that poses a new question. What was Haley doing for 29 weeks?

[The_Tentacle]

You have to remember that Windy Canyon was also shielded from the same types of divination that the cloister presumably protects against. Z couldn't scry it or the Draketooths, so why would the magic go through Daketooth anti-scry but not cloister? Yeah, maybe Draketooth anti-scry isn't epic, but it probably is. If they were able to keep up that kind of desert illusion system going, at least one of the Draketooths would need to be epic... probably.

[TheYell]

So I can either believe that Ian and Haley are Draketooths, and that totally separate and unplanned coincidences spared both of them from a global spell specifically targeting all the Draketooths at once, including those holed up in a secret last-stand hold-at-all-costs fortress of spellcasters

or

I can believe they aren't Draketooths.

[Chantelune]

Eh, I could see Cloister protecting Haley. I mean, Familicide seeks out the descendants of the targeted creature, presumably 'divining' them in some manner. Cloister prevents any divination of any kind.

Comparing it to Orbs, where the person has to see the target, and shoot at them... well, it's not quite right. Familicide is a decidedly different spell.

Now, I'm one who doesn't believe Haley is a Draketooth, but I am simply making the argument for Cloister being an appropriate defense against Familicide.

I don't think so. It seems that epic magic can get through the cloister and Familicide is an epic spell.

[Psyren]

Lest we forget, Epic spells can penetrate AMF anyway.


So I can either believe that Ian and Haley are Draketooths, and that totally separate and unplanned coincidences spared both of them from a global spell specifically targeting all the Draketooths at once, including those holed up in a secret last-stand hold-at-all-costs fortress of spellcasters

or

I can believe they aren't Draketooths.

But... but red hair!

[Peelee]

Cloister wore off. Xykon (presumably is LV27) cast it a week after new year. Haley skipped Azure City 16 weeks later. There are 52 weeks in a year (if not then its Burlew's job to tell us). Belkar was given 6 weeks left to live in a diagnosis by Roy. Meaning there was a 45 week period in which Roy was dead. Take away Haley leaving that's 29 weeks where she wasn't in a cloister before V rocked the world. Xykon would need to be 29+ and have cast Cloister the day Haley left for that to work.

Now that poses a new question. What was Haley doing for 29 weeks?

I thought Xykon was refreshing the Cloister every week. Was it Dorukan who did that, or did I make it up entirely?

Also, where do you see that Cloister wore off on Haley? Can you provide a source strip? I always assumed any scrying effects (such as Z's eye in the desert) were able to get the whole of the order except for Haley, and since it isn't really a big issue, it's just never addressed.

[SaintRidley]

I don't think so. It seems that epic magic can get through the cloister and Familicide is an epic spell.

To add to this in a different direction, Cloister protects against Divinations. Note the capital D. Divination is a specific school of magic. As a general case, spells which gather information or divine whereabouts or other such things fall under the category of Divination. However, Familicide, even if it appears to be divining (note the lowercase d) its targets, is not Divining them. (It's not actually divining them either, as it's target is simply the blood of Mama Black Dragon). The spell is not a Divination spell, but a Necromancy spell. And Cloister doesn't protect against that.

[brionl]

But... but red hair!

Don't forget secretive and paranoid. Only people that are half-dragon have those traits.

[SaintRidley]

I thought Xykon was refreshing the Cloister every week. Was it Dorukan who did that, or did I make it up entirely?

Also, where do you see that Cloister wore off on Haley? Can you provide a source strip? I always assumed any scrying effects (such as Z's eye in the desert) were able to get the whole of the order except for Haley, and since it isn't really a big issue, it's just never addressed.

Pretty sure it's Xykon who was refreshing the spell every other week or so. Can't find the reference right now.

Also, Belkar and Mr. Scruffy are covered by Cloister just as long as Haley is. So, we can presume that the Cloister has worn off due to the Scrying Eye seeing Mr. Scruffy.

[B. Dandelion]

Pretty sure it's Xykon who was refreshing the spell every other week or so. Can't find the reference right now.

709 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0709.html), panel seven.

[Unisus]

But - didn't Haley actually say something about being Half-Dragon?

And really - what is the simpler choice: Haley and Ian being from some family absolutely not connected to the Draketooths but with the exact same traits (paranoia, red hair), or the two just succeeding in their saving throws? :smallwink:

[Alaris]

I don't think so. It seems that epic magic can get through the cloister and Familicide is an epic spell.

True... also, V's birds being able to find them means that lower level, non-divination-specific spells can bypass it. My argument is invalid.

[Kish]

But - didn't Haley actually say something about being Half-Dragon?

And really - what is the simpler choice: Haley and Ian being from some family absolutely not connected to the Draketooths but with the exact same traits (paranoia, red hair), or the two just succeeding in their saving throws? :smallwink:
...against a spell that doesn't give a saving throw?

[VanaGalen]

Wow, the Giant's comment on how Familicide works surprised me a bit. I always imagined the spell was going in iterations starting from the Black Dragon Mother and going on until there was nobody to kill.

I like the idea how the Cloister spell could've shielded Haley by making her invisible to V/Haera's spell. However, I suppose Girard's anti-scrying shield was more or less just as effective as Dorukan's. So if Haley was protected, Draketooths shouldn't had been affected as well.
I also can't imagine how some lousy empire in the middle of nowhere could afford epic-level antimagic fields in regular prison cells.

As for the Draketooths' facial markings, I believe they're tattoos. Children don't have them as far as we can see and when characters talk about the markings, they usually call them "tattoos".

As for Haley's comment "I may not be exactly what you would call...", certainly "human" is one possible ending. Still, Haley might not be 100% human but there are endless possibilities of her non-human ancestry - it doesn't mean she's half-dragon. And even if she had some dragon ancestors, not every half-dragon person is related to the Black Dragon Mom.
Also, there are many other possible endings to that sentence:
- "good person" - at that point the OotS didn't know about Crystal and other gray areas of Haley's past
- "rogue" - it could mean she multiclassed in secret and nobody knows about it
- "straight person" - explained by some hidden aspects of Haley's personality (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0382.html)
Actually, that part of the comic always puzzled me. Do you know if the Giant has made any statement about this unfinished sentence?

Anyway, it would be pretty neat if Haley was related to Draketooths, but I don't think she's part of the family any more than other redheads in the comic. There is quite a few of them: Pompey, Loki, some of the bandits, inn employees, even Belkar's hair is sort of reddish - are they all Draketooths?

[Bulldog Psion]

Ian would be dead regardless of Cloister's effectiveness or ineffectiveness at stopping Familicide.

Case closed, IMO.

[Rogar Demonblud]

In theory, I suppose Haley could be related to the Draketooths through her mother (if Mia had a fling with a Draketooth that resulted in baby), since Mia is dead and Rich said that Category 2's are protected by a dead relative breaking the circuit.

In reality, unless and until Rich officially declares Haley related to the dead'uns, I'm firmly in the no dice camp.

[Snails]

Is there any logical reason to belief Haley is more likely to be a Draketooth than Roy or Elan?

Roy is a better candidate because we are not sure if his sister is still among the living.

Elan is a better candidate because of the awesome Charisma running in the family, and Tarquin might have the resources to formulate some kind of protection.

As far as the Cloister spell protecting against the Familicide spell successfully "tracking" familial lines, it has already been established that Clan Draketooth is very strong in that suit, and such efforts seems to have done no good.

[denthor]

Haley was not a Draketooth or she would be dead.

Haley is clearly Chaotic Good(ish) That means she could not be the spawn of a Black Dragon.

She could have been any of the metallic Dragons my guess Copper.

Lawful good: Silver and Gold

Chaotic Good: Brass, Copper

[Dr.Epic]

She's secretly undead.

Well I just lost all respect for Elan.

[Kish]

...I should be less surprised that someone just posted that none of the descendents of a black dragon can ever be good than I am.

[Peelee]

Haley was not a Draketooth or she would be dead.

Haley is clearly Chaotic Good(ish) That means she could not be the spawn of a Black Dragon.

She could have been any of the metallic Dragons my guess Copper.

Lawful good: Silver and Gold

Chaotic Good: Brass, Copper

Just to be clear, are you claiming that in D&D, good and evil are inherited?

[JCAll]

In theory, I suppose Haley could be related to the Draketooths through her mother (if Mia had a fling with a Draketooth that resulted in baby), since Mia is dead and Rich said that Category 2's are protected by a dead relative breaking the circuit.

In reality, unless and until Rich officially declares Haley related to the dead'uns, I'm firmly in the no dice camp.

So if your mother is dead you're no longer related to your father?
So if your parents are dead you're no longer related to your grandparents?

[denthor]

Haley was not a Draketooth or she would be dead.

Haley is clearly Chaotic Good(ish) That means she could not be the spawn of a Black Dragon.

She could have been any of the metallic Dragons my guess Copper.

Lawful good: Silver and Gold

Chaotic Good: Brass, Copper

Just to be clear, are you claiming that in D&D, good and evil are inherited?

In D&D Dragons are absolutes in the corners as are all of the dragon childern born to that dragon. Barring a helm of alignment change.

So, yes there children that are half Ogre/human/elf are -the closer to the Dragon- absolutes.

Rich has shown a Nuetral Blue dragon Orge already. I wonder if that is because Blues are Lawful Evil and Orges are Chaotic Evil that = Nuetral? Or if that was a second generation from the ogre side of the Family.

As the blood line is diluted free will and the choices made will begin and can bring about the sliding of any of the four alignment points:

law chaos or good evil.

So after as little as grand children Chaos can still be there but Good becomes less. Or the other way around.


Only Rich knows for certain in his game world.

We can all speculate

[GnomeGninjas]

In D&D Dragons are absolutes in the corners as are all of the dragon childern born to that dragon. Barring a helm of alignment change.

Really? Why do you think this, is it in the rules somewhere? The half-dragon template says that alignment is the same a the dragon type, but it never says that only a helm of alignment change can change alignment or that the 1/2dragon's children have that alignment to.

[hamishspence]

The sample half-dragon (black dragon) human in the MM, has in its alignment line "Often Chaotic Evil"

Which could be extrapolated to half-dragons in general.

[Roland Itiative]

Not even dragons themselves are always stuck on their "natural" alignment, if we take V's assumptions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0866.html) as being true. And it fits quite well one of the themes of the comic, of breaking the strictness of the alignment system and making it fit better with the real world, so I see no reason why not.

Either way, even if we assume that dragons and half-dragons always have fixed alignments, their descendants (third-generation from a dragon's PoV) are still 100% human (or whatever other race the half-dragons are, but that's besides the point here, as the Draketooth are human), with no template or other mechanical change (only a propensity for having Sorcerer levels, which is strictly fluff), and as such can have any alignment.

[Kish]

As other people have said, if you think every dragon is guaranteed to be that dragon's racial alignment, you've fundamentally misunderstood both the D&D rules and the comic's themes. If you think every half-dragon is guaranteed to be the dragon's racial alignment, you've fundamentally misunderstood both the D&D rules and the comic's themes...and you've entirely missed Enor. And if you think every twelfth-generation-descendent of a dragon, every human with a tiny bit a dragon blood some ways back, is guaranteed to be the dragon's racial alignment...

...then I just don't know what to say.

[Silverionmox]

From what we know from the comic, Haley is more likely to be related to any family than the Draketooths, because being related to the Draketooths requires an explanation for evasion of the familicide, and being related to other families doesn't.

[The Succubus]

From what we know from the comic, Haley is more likely to be related to any family than the Draketooths,

In fact, almost every character in the strip is related to a family. :smalltongue:

[martianmister]

Haley and father could be related to Draketooths:

Step 2: Kill everyone who shares blood with any of the people killed in Step 1. Think of it as killing everyone descended from (or siblings to) any and all still-living ancestors of each secondary target. So if Penelope had a grandfather on one side and a great-grandmother on the other side who were still alive, every person who could trace their blood back to either of those people would be dead, because Penelope's daughter carries both of their bloods. If a person can only trace their blood through (say) Penelope's already-dead great-great-great-grandfather, then they're safe. Thus cousins and second-cousins and the like are all dead, but more distant genetic relations are not. It is possible for some cousins to survive if all older generations were already dead, yes, but Vaarsuvius wasn't really likely to take the time to make that distinction while sobbing on a dungeon hallway floor.

Haley and Ian could be descendants of/related to Girard's grandmother (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html).

[Deepbluediver]

"Haley is a draketooth" seems to be a very popular theory on the forum, and gets shot down just about as often. But as far as I can tell, the OP doesn't seem to have come back since he made his fist post 4 days ago. I'm kind of wondering if these was actually a serious question or just something else?


Also, people seem to speculate that every random NPC or other character we come across is related to Haley in some way. More so than any other character at all. And most of it usually based on a single shred of rather flimsy evidence (has the same hair color/style, etc) when The Giant has already pointed out that his palette is relatively limited for this comic.

Why do people seem to determine to set Haley up as the relative of whoever, more than any other character? I don't recall seeing a whole bunch of comments about how everyone suddenly had the same skin tone as Roy when we first hit the Southern Continent, or how every elf in the resistance must be V's cousin/nephew/godchild, etc.

I realize that idle speculation can be fun, at first, but going over some of this stuff for the umpteeth time gets so tiring after a while.

[Acrux]

I don't believe Haley is a Draketooth, but I do think the Cloister argument is an interesting angle on this issue. The precise length of time Cloister will be active has been mentioned in more than one comic, which makes me think that it may still have a role to play in the overall plot.

[137beth]

In D&D Dragons are absolutes in the corners as are all of the dragon childern born to that dragon. Barring a helm of alignment change.

So, yes there children that are half Ogre/human/elf are -the closer to the Dragon- absolutes.

Rich has shown a Nuetral Blue dragon Orge already. I wonder if that is because Blues are Lawful Evil and Orges are Chaotic Evil that = Nuetral? Or if that was a second generation from the ogre side of the Family.

As the blood line is diluted free will and the choices made will begin and can bring about the sliding of any of the four alignment points:

law chaos or good evil.

So after as little as grand children Chaos can still be there but Good becomes less. Or the other way around.


Only Rich knows for certain in his game world.

We can all speculate
In D&D, "Alignment: Always X" means "almost always." It says so in the Monster Manual.
Also, Haley is not (closely) related to Girard.

[Zmeoaice]

Haley and father could be related to Draketooths:


Haley and Ian could be descendants of/related to Girard's grandmother (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html).

Do you think Girard would trust his third cousins with the gate?

[Domino Quartz]

Haley and father could be related to Draketooths:


Haley and Ian could be descendants of/related to Girard's grandmother (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0842.html).

But, not being a descendant of dragons, she wouldn't have been a Draketooth, would she?

[martianmister]

But, not being a descendant of dragons, she wouldn't have been a Draketooth, would she?

I never said she is. :smallconfused:


Do you think Girard would trust his third cousins with the gate?

Eh, why not? :smalltongue:

[VanaGalen]

Do you think Girard would trust his third cousins with the gate?

Well, if he run out of 2nd cousins, 3rd cousins are still better than the rest of the world.


Anyway, I think it's unlikely that Haley is in any way related to them. Even if Mia Starshine was indeed nee Draketooth, it's unlikely Dorukan's Cloister spell would've shielded Haley, as the Draketooths were covered also by similar spell (and it didn't work).
I don't get it, why Haley's family connections are discussed so often, the only clue here is her red hair. I think just as well we could speculate if Haera is related to Greenhilts, after all they have the same skin tone and hair color.

[Rogar Demonblud]

More fun is, is Roy related to the King of Nowhere? Because they look a lot alike.

[137beth]

More fun is, is Roy related to the King of Nowhere? Because they look a lot alike.

And they are so similar, that people get them confused:smallsmile:

[ti'esar]

I'd say the real mystery is whether the King of Nowhere is related to the Weeping King.

[SoC175]

In D&D Dragons are absolutes in the corners as are all of the dragon childern born to that dragon. Barring a helm of alignment change.

So, yes there children that are half Ogre/human/elf are -the closer to the Dragon- absolutes. Actually that's not true. In D&D the "always" part of monster alignment doesn't truly mean always but "merely" 99.9%.

So while it's very rare, not even full dragon children are sometimes a differen alignment.

[MeanMrsMustard]

...I should be less surprised that someone just posted that none of the descendents of a black dragon can ever be good than I am.
It's quotes like these that make me wish I had more space in my signature. Maybe I'll make some more space.

[shamgar001]

I'm not really familiar with the 3.5 rules. Is it possible that there's some form of AMF that blocks higher-level spells?

It's just disappointing that everyone is so dismissive. This is Wild Mass Guessing and discussion, not "I've proven it." The idea is not that only people related to the Draketooths can be paranoid and red-haired, but that those qualities in Haley make it more likely to be true.

By the way, we can add another similarity to the list: Deceptiveness, in the form of bluffing and illusion.

[Peelee]

I'm not really familiar with the 3.5 rules. Is it possible that there's some form of AMF that blocks higher-level spells?

It's just disappointing that everyone is so dismissive. This is Wild Mass Guessing and discussion, not "I've proven it." The idea is not that only people related to the Draketooths can be paranoid and red-haired, but that those qualities in Haley make it more likely to be true.

By the way, we can add another similarity to the list: Deceptiveness, in the form of bluffing and illusion.

Possible, yes. Probable, no. The idea is that Haley is related to the Draketooths, and was able to survive the Familicide spell (an epic-level spell cast by the same mage who Epic Teleported through the Cloister spell, proving that Cloister is not impregnable, I might add), due to having some as-of-yet unknown epic AMF, cast by an unknown mage for reasons unknown, and without Haley's knowledge, while her father was under a similar, yet necessarily different, epic-level spell that produced the exact same effects, also by an unknown mage for unknown reasons, and is based on the facts that she has red hair and is cautious as times.

You'll forgive me if I don't go for that for a second.

[Domino Quartz]

<snip> the Familicide spell (an epic-level spell cast by the same mage who Epic Teleported through the Cloister spell, proving that Cloister is not impregnable, I might add),

Just a nitpick, but V had already lost the soul of the necromancer whose Familicide spell s/he used by the time s/he teleported into Xykon's lair.

[Throknor]

Just a nitpick, but V had already lost the soul of the necromancer whose Familicide spell s/he used by the time s/he teleported into Xykon's lair.

"Epic Teleport!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots06.html)

Regardless, I'd swear when Draketooth was first shown the Giant made a point of posting that he was unrelated to Haley, but I have no way to find it now. I'm positive it was someone, and pretty sure him. (Could only find a two year old thread through google, and it was just as clear as this one.)

[Kish]

"Epic Teleport!" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots06.html)

...Yes, and? Are you under the impression all the epic spells came from Haerta?

Familicide was epic necromancy, the spell of Haerta Bloodsoak, the Neutral Evil necromancer and most powerful of the three spliced souls. Epic Teleport was epic conjuration, the spell of Ganonron, Terror of a Thousand Planes, the Lawful Evil conjurer.


Regardless, I'd swear when Draketooth was first shown the Giant made a point of posting that he was unrelated to Haley, but I have no way to find it now. I'm positive it was someone, and pretty sure him.
When Penelope and Orrin's child was brought up, Rich posted "and no, that's not Haley, because I just know someone will think it is if I don't say immediately that it isn't."

He did not...unfortunately...add, "Neither is any other Draketooth."

[SaintRidley]

but that those qualities in Haley make it more likely to be true.


It really, really doesn't. There's a woman I work with. She has black hair, glasses, and a tendency to geek out on science fiction, just like I do. It does not make her any more likely to be related to me.

[shamgar001]

It really, really doesn't. There's a woman I work with. She has black hair, glasses, and a tendency to geek out on science fiction, just like I do. It does not make her any more likely to be related to me.

In real life? No. In fiction? Possibly.

[Throknor]

...Yes, and? Are you under the impression all the epic spells came from Haerta?
No, I was under the impression that someone thought Haerta leaving mattered for getting through the Cloister and was countering that. Be pretty daft to post something countering an impression I personally held.

It's possible Haley's Aunt Ivy was willingly related to Draketooth's group, but apparently has her own house (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0815.html). If she's actually Haley's mother's sister familicide probably would have stopped. Whether the Draketooth's canyon is the place Ian knows that Geoff doesn't remains to be seen. I'd think it unlikely they'd go straight there, as I don't see how they could fly and aren't in much condition for a desert hike without supplies. So they're either out of the story for good (or at least until things settle down), or will show up with Ian's friend, attack Targuin and make for another odd battle.

[Kish]

No, I was under the impression that someone thought Haerta leaving mattered for getting through the Cloister and was countering that. Be pretty daft to post something countering an impression I personally held.
I see.

I couldn't actually tell what you were trying to link to, the link doesn't seem to be working, on my computer anyway. My apologies for the misunderstanding.

[rodneyAnonymous]

When Celia is describing the effects of Cloister to Haley, she mentions epic magic can get through it.

[Shred-Bot]

In fact, almost every character in the strip is related to a family. :smalltongue:

I wish all of Connie the Construct's scenes weren't written out of the comic.:smallbiggrin: