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Scorpier
2013-04-08, 07:34 AM
Wondering if y'alls could give me a hand with a bit of a problem I've been having that's gotten worse as of late.

I play D&D (and many variations thereof) with the same group of guys. We add in and take out two or three other guys depending in availability, but for the most part it's the same group of us. Naturally, when we play around each other so much, we pick up on each other's mentalities, tendencies and habits. Well, as it turns out, one of us is a dirty nasty rule breaker.

Now, I do my best to NOT be a rules Nazi, and we ALL have fudged a hit die roll, thrown in a extra skill point or two, and all that lovely stuff. But this player is taking feats he doesn't have the prerequisites for (often ones that are minimum B.A.B. requirements), then, when caught, they pick ANOTHER one that they ALSO fail to meet the prerequisites for.

Another player and I call him out, but it's getting to the point where the two of us are looking like bullies. However, whenever we make an accusation the player ends up having to change some feats because he is, lo and behold, in error.

Now, this player is good friends with the DM, so it's always more than a little tense when we AGAIN check a feat he can't get becasue he's not the right level, class, or whatever. The other players usually turn a blind eye to it, and the DM like to let us handle things on our own, but it's getting more and more frustrating.

We've talked to him out of session and even brought it up to the DM, but nothing seems to be working. Does anyone have any advice, maybe from a similar situation? Has anyone else experienced anything like this?

Mastikator
2013-04-08, 07:54 AM
In a previous group of mine we did this thing were whenever someone would create or advance a character we'd do it together. It was mostly to cover the gaps in knowledge about the game rules, but it can be used as well to prevent cheating.

Rhynn
2013-04-08, 08:00 AM
we ALL have fudged a hit die roll, thrown in a extra skill point or two, and all that lovely stuff

The first seems like forgiveable cheating to me, but the second just maddens me, because it's wrong math! :smallfurious:

Ahem...


If the DM, whose job it is to police that the rules are followed and that characters are legal (addressing actual cheating at dice etc. is everybody's job, together, IMO), won't do anything, you're sort of stuck.

Sidmen
2013-04-08, 08:11 AM
Option: Stop caring if he has an improper feat.

I know it sounds a bit... wrong. But he's an ally, and won't be hurting you for getting a smashgoblingood feat when he's not supposed to. And if the GM doesn't care, then just assume that he has house ruled it so that the feat doesn't have those prereqs.

I want to be clear. I understand that you (probably) aren't a rules nazi, but just want to all play in the same engine. And that's not a bad desire by any stretch. But in the grand and humble scheme of things, it just doesn't matter if one guy has an improper character.

Truth be told, the GM is probably just leaning on you guys to keep the cheater in check. Stop doing his job for him, if the GM doesn't bother to look over a character build to OK it - that's his hangup.

Scorpier
2013-04-08, 08:52 AM
...But he's an ally...
Ally is a very VERY loose term in this campaign. I should have mentioned that we've killed one and ran off another of his previous characters for acting blatantly against the party (his first died naturally). He's been getting advantages that make him much more difficult to keep in line, and he's been dragging this mentality into other campaigns we're in together.

I'm starting to agree that there's not much that can be done, but, eh. I guess I'm venting more than anything else.

Jay R
2013-04-08, 09:27 AM
In most games I've played, the GM has a copy of each character sheet, and checks it for accuracy.

After the third problem, I'd check his sheet each game, before it starts.

By the way, I don't know him, and you do. Do you suspect him of reading the rules carefully and building an illegal character on purpose, or of not reading carefully and making mistakes. Is he a liar, or merely sloppy? It makes a difference.

(Yes, there are sloppy people who catch every mistake against them, because they are looking for them, and miss many things in their favor, because they aren't.)

Scorpier
2013-04-08, 09:36 AM
In most games I've played, the GM has a copy of each character sheet, and checks it for accuracy.

After the third problem, I'd check his sheet each game, before it starts.

By the way, I don't know him, and you do. Do you suspect him of reading the rules carefully and building an illegal character on purpose, or of not reading carefully and making mistakes. Is he a liar, or merely sloppy? It makes a difference.

(Yes, there are sloppy people who catch every mistake against them, because they are looking for them, and miss many things in their favor, because they aren't.)
He knows the rules very well, but always suddenly forgets them when his sheet is called into question. He's often taken....creative liberties in the past, many of which the DM DID catch on to and change.

I may have painted the DM in a bad light. Or however that saying goes. He has caught on to a lot of things the player does and rectifies the situation, usually. The times we catch him is stuff he sneaks in between the DM's checks, stuff that he just does without conferring with anyone.

Driderman
2013-04-08, 09:37 AM
Sounds like you have a bad group dynamic, if in-game pvp is bleeding over into other games and causing players to cheat to get ahead. That's something you need to discuss as a gaming group, in entirety. Maybe it's time to change the dynamic.

That being said, I had a similar problem once, with a friend who repeateadly (and rather obviously, or so I thought) cheated with dice rolls because he couldn't deal with his character not being awesome all the time.
Now, I don't mind handwaving rolls as a player from time to time, saying "I'm so good at [whatever] that I succeed" and not bother rolling, that can be beneficial to the flow of a game, but outright cheating to get advantage against the other players, or to "hog the spotlight" is something you need to address. I'd suggesting taking it up with him one on one, outside the game, or possibly ask your DM to handle it as in the end, he is supposed to be the adjudicator.

valadil
2013-04-08, 11:36 AM
Playing referee is part of the GM's responsibility. If the GM isn't an adequate referee for your playstyle, don't let him be your GM. I'm not saying ragequit, just that you need to communicate your expectations to the GM: it's his job to keep everyone's character sheets legit and if he's not doing his job you won't play.

laeZ1
2013-04-08, 12:14 PM
Sounds like you have a bad group dynamic, if in-game pvp is bleeding over into other games and causing players to cheat to get ahead. That's something you need to discuss as a gaming group, in entirety. Maybe it's time to change the dynamic.

This. As sad as it is to say: if you don't like how one of your friends play, don't let it ruin your fun, and don't ruin his fun. If it becomes this big of a deal, maybe you shouldn't be in a campaign with him/her.

Darius Kane
2013-04-08, 12:23 PM
Start cheating too.

Paragon468
2013-04-08, 12:35 PM
Sounds a lot like my party's warlord. Except not NEARLY as bad.

Taking epic feats during paragon teir, adding weapon proficiencies to implement attacks, adding action points whenever convenient, pretending to have the oversized racial feature... It's pretty crazy.

That said, I am a MAJOR rules lawyer, but I can't help but let his "mistakes" slide when it helps me slay a dragon or three.

Figgin of Chaos
2013-04-08, 12:51 PM
If he won't play by the rules, don't let him play.

Lord Torath
2013-04-08, 01:09 PM
That said, I am a MAJOR rules lawyer, but I can't help but let his "mistakes" slide when it helps me slay a dragon or three.This seems to be a fairly common response. The problem I see with it is that it gives the DM a false idea of what the party should be capable of handling. Which then leads to tougher encounters which then leads to increased cheating, which then leads to tougher encounters; you get the idea.

I think your campaign will be better off long-term if you keep them meticulously honest.

JusticeZero
2013-04-08, 01:14 PM
Put everybody's character sheets online on a shared cloud. Keep version history in read-only files on a non-shared directory. Or just have the GM hang onto everybody's sheets and manage them. You get a copy when you show up to game.

Alejandro
2013-04-08, 01:33 PM
The GM is supposed to ensure that everything stays above board, unless all players and the GM have agreed they don't care. Since that is not the case, your GM is not doing their job.

I suspect the cheating player has poor self esteem or sees themselves as inferior in real life, and so cheats in the game to feel superior.

NikitaDarkstar
2013-04-08, 02:00 PM
It seems like you have a few options. Convince the player in question to play by the rules. Convince the DM to enforce them. Start cheating in the same way. Play another system that fits better.

Paragon468
2013-04-08, 02:29 PM
I think your campaign will be better off long-term if you keep them meticulously honest.

Agreed. However, we're pretty much finished with it now, and this player didn't join until recently. I plan to bring it to the DM's attention as soon as his villains are lying facedown in a pile of blood :D

Dayaz
2013-04-08, 05:19 PM
Agreed. However, we're pretty much finished with it now, and this player didn't join until recently. I plan to bring it to the DM's attention as soon as his villains are lying facedown in a pile of blood :D

We dd this once... Then our DM made us fix the sheets and re-fight the bosses, which were not only higher level, they had our 'mistakes' on their sheets. Not Fun.

We still won, but it was close to a TPK. Needless to say, we didn't do it again (or at least we don't brag about it)

scurv
2013-04-08, 05:29 PM
Something to consider, Is he playing with a false char sheet due to impersonation?

Although As a rule as ether a player or as a DM I tend to be strict on the written rules being implemented the same for all players. Stuff gets house ruled from time to time so what I suggest is ask your DM if it is house ruled in for said problem player and then record it for your use later. After half a dozen times build a char of awesomeness and show your DM the list of house rules you used.

Cerlis
2013-04-08, 05:36 PM
This seems to be a fairly common response. The problem I see with it is that it gives the DM a false idea of what the party should be capable of handling. Which then leads to tougher encounters which then leads to increased cheating, which then leads to tougher encounters; you get the idea.

I think your campaign will be better off long-term if you keep them meticulously honest.

I certainly dont want my first dragon kill to be because someone cheated :smallmad: