Need list of Magic Classes, that do not use arcane/divine magic as we know it today.

[killem2]

So after this thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=278429) and listing to the Private Sanctuary Podcast with Creator of Ebberon Keith Baker (http://35privatesanctuary.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=507:ps0216-eberron-dming&catid=13:35-private-sanctuary&Itemid=33), AND with my desire to DM a campaign with gestalt characters, I am trying to find more magic like classes to add to what I already have.


Basically, if at any point by strict R.A.W it says refer to the wizard/sorcerer/cleric/druid spell list for its "spells per day", just like you see in core, the class is out.

I want to share the backstory and what classes I have hand picked to exist.

===========================================
Long ago, the worlds as you know it today was completely different. The world thrived with magic, no, thrive is a poor choice of words, it implies it used magic to accent the current people and their day to day workings. No, this world replaced and infused itself with magic.

The ancient history books speak of the days when if public transportation was requested, you didn't hire a horse and a buggy, you didn't take a boat or even the most advanced of air ships. You teleported to where you needed to go.

Starvation was effectively decimated from the face of the world. If you starved in ancient times it was because you chose to reject the magical intrusion onto the world. Divine casters made food and water; arcane casters would control weather to ensure ample crops if anyone still chose to perform such an archaic form of food gathering.

Modern medicine was effectively forgotten, as casters cured diseases, removed poisons, healed the sick and most problematic, and kept the living, from dying. The average life span of any given race or creature had increased by nearly four or five times as longer as the maximum life we know of would normally be.

Over time, the gods who oversee the astral plane, the forge at which arcane power can flow into the material plan began to be angered at the divine gods who had begun to increasingly exert their prowess into the world of the arcane users because they felt their gifts were being taken for granted.

The divine gods were seeing this infusion over the years as borderline blasphemy and for the mortals to take the creation of everything into their own hands rather than embracing the landscape given a terrible and long lasting war broke out between the arcane gods and the divine gods. For nearly 30 years magic was used as a tool of war whereas before there was relative peace and harmony. The pride of the gods was injured and this retribution had to be given.

The mortal realm was left to ruin as it had relied so heavy on magic, the basic and fundamental skills to survive had been lost. After the gods of divinity defeated the arcane gods, they set forth to punish the world and remove all powers granted by the divine and due to the defeat of the arcane users their powers no longer existed either. This curse was bestowed for a period of no longer than 40,000 years the old scriptures say.

As a result of this war, the relatively neutral psionic beings were systematically hunted and destroyed from the face of the earth for being confused for the previous arcane users. Very few remain.

Now, nearly 14,000 years later, the only remnants of magic that remain are those few gifted that are born with the innate abilities through either mutated genes or a bloodline that had managed to survived to many millennia.
===============================================




Here is the list so far.

Binder
Truenamer
Shadowcaster
Dragon Shaman
Dragonfire Adept
Herbalist (3rd part class that uses plants to replicate upto a small list of 3rd level divine/arcane spells)
Physician (another 3rd party class that deals with healing but not magically)
Incarnate
Soulborn
Totemist
Soulknife (the last remainder of psionic classes)
Warlock

I am taking things from Dragon, Dungeon, 3.0, 3.5, 3rd Party, and possibly Homebrew if it is from this site and only this site :).

[JoshuaZ]

I am taking things from Dragon, Dungeon, 3.0, 3.5, 3rd Party, and possibly Homebrew if it is from this site and only this site :).

Aetherforge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255723) is a good one.

[Callin]

The Shaman from Oriental Adventures has its own spell list. Also the Shugenja and Sohei from the same book.

[phlidwsn]

Artificer infusions are neither Arcane nor Divine magic, though a small handful are as per the spell, ie Identify.

[WhatBigTeeth]

Including 3rd party? There are going to be a ton.

Of my collection:

Secrets of Pact Magic and Villains of Pact Magic are 3rd party, but fill out a spirit binding system very similar to the Binder with a wide array of takes on the archetype.

Skip William's Advanced Player's Manual has the Psychic (OGC, available here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Psychic_Powers_%28DnD_Variant_Rule%29)), which has a skill-based casting mechanism (so just adding it to a campaign makes Savants and Factotums awesome).

Mythic Vistas: Midieval Player's Manual has 3-4 unique casting mechanics for relatively subdued magic. They tend to be comparatively low power, next to these others we're mentioning.

Arcana Evolved and Thieves World have alternate base casting mechanics that are still pretty similar to core casting. AE is basically the same mechanic, but with some options like diminishing/heightening spell effects, kind of like psionic augments, and a tweaked metamagic system. Thieves world dramatically overhauls the casting system, replacing daily limits with level checks, extended casting times and unhealable damage, but keeps the basic D&D spell effects.

And I know Penumbra: Occult Lore has a few more casting subsystems, if you're really digging around for them.

[killem2]

I will check it all out, I think i saw some of these and nixed them because even though THEY may have their own class, if they cast spells in the exact same manner as a wizard/cleric I didn't want them.

I wanted the magic effect but not through that exact way.

I am going to review all these when I get home.

[JaronK]

Factotum casts off that list, but in a very different way... they're actually all Sp abilities.

JaronK

[Kuulvheysoon]

Truenamers? And please, for the love of all that is holy, don't use the vanilla Soulborn.

*In before Zaq

[killem2]

Truenamers? And please, for the love of all that is holy, don't use the vanilla Soulborn.

*In before Zaq

You mean like don't ban variants?

I don't mind what anyone uses for these classes, variants and such if any.

[Karnith]

You mean like don't ban variants?
The Soulborn doesn't really have any variants/ACFs (so far as I'm aware), but the class is terrible. It's something you'll want to be aware of in case anyone in one of your games wants to use it.

[Callin]

The Arcane Swordsage variant gets to trade out Maneuvers for Spells. The spells become maneuvers and as such are Extraordinary Abilities and you can regain them by using their recovery method or Adaptive Style. As Extraordinary Abilities they are not subject to Spell Resistance or Anti Magic Fields.

Makes for a great gish, but can be a bit OP if you let them run wild with it. They get access to ANY arcane spell. From ANY arcane casting spell list. Even PrC's.

They have to have an Initiator Level high enough to be able to do the higher spells. Use the table in ToB that says when they can get 2nd + level maneuvers.

[nedz]

We had a couple of threads late last year which attempted to list all of the magic systems in 3.5. There are almost 30 IIRC — so you have some way to go here :smallsmile:

[killem2]

The Soulborn doesn't really have any variants/ACFs (so far as I'm aware), but the class is terrible. It's something you'll want to be aware of in case anyone in one of your games wants to use it.

That's why I am allowing gestalts :).

[KillingAScarab]

The Soulborn doesn't really have any variants/ACFs (so far as I'm aware), but the class is terrible. It's something you'll want to be aware of in case anyone in one of your games wants to use it.There are two racial substitutions available within Magic of Incarnum itself for soulborn. LG Dwarves and CG elves can take them. Beyond racial substitutions, I can't say there are alternate class features for anything from MoI, though you can find some additional soulmelds, such as these from a Mind's Eye article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a).

Wasn't asked for but this (http://web.archive.org/web/20080611162349/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-592729) is the best writing I have been able to find on the soulborn class.

[killem2]

Aetherforge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255723) is a good one.

Looks good.


The Shaman from Oriental Adventures has its own spell list. Also the Shugenja and Sohei from the same book.

I saw these, but aren't they just using the same spell lists just more limited?



Artificer infusions are neither Arcane nor Divine magic, though a small handful are as per the spell, ie Identify.

Where can this be found?



Including 3rd party? There are going to be a ton.

Of my collection:

Secrets of Pact Magic and Villains of Pact Magic are 3rd party, but fill out a spirit binding system very similar to the Binder with a wide array of takes on the archetype.

I wanted to check that out, but I can't find the book.



Skip William's Advanced Player's Manual has the Psychic (OGC, available here (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Psychic_Powers_%28DnD_Variant_Rule%29)), which has a skill-based casting mechanism (so just adding it to a campaign makes Savants and Factotums awesome).

Looks pretty cool, doesn't seem to dip to far into the pyschic power level that I was trying to avoid.



Mythic Vistas: Midieval Player's Manual has 3-4 unique casting mechanics for relatively subdued magic. They tend to be comparatively low power, next to these others we're mentioning.

I will check this out, still trying to locate the info.



Arcana Evolved and Thieves World have alternate base casting mechanics that are still pretty similar to core casting. AE is basically the same mechanic, but with some options like diminishing/heightening spell effects, kind of like psionic augments, and a tweaked metamagic system. Thieves world dramatically overhauls the casting system, replacing daily limits with level checks, extended casting times and unhealable damage, but keeps the basic D&D spell effects.


Yeah a bit too much like d&d, trying to keep magic as least verstile as possible,if possible.



And I know Penumbra: Occult Lore has a few more casting subsystems, if you're really digging around for them.

I tried finding info on this, and failed. I will try again tonight.


Factotum casts off that list, but in a very different way... they're actually all Sp abilities.

JaronK


I was not going to allow that, but looking it over, it's flavor and limited access, is decent enough to fit the story. It is in.


There are two racial substitutions available within Magic of Incarnum itself for soulborn. LG Dwarves and CG elves can take them. Beyond racial substitutions, I can't say there are alternate class features for anything from MoI, though you can find some additional soulmelds, such as these from a Mind's Eye article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a).

Wasn't asked for but this (http://web.archive.org/web/20080611162349/http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-592729) is the best writing I have been able to find on the soulborn class.



Thanks, should anyone want to do this class, I will give them the info about it.

[Bakeru]

Artificers are found in the Eberron Player Guide, if I remember correctly.

I'm not sure if I'd call them all that "unusual", though. Their fluff is different, but the difference between a direct strength buff and temporarily turning a belt into a belt of giant strength is negligible. Their combination of knowing all infusions of any level they can cast with spontaneous casting isn't new, either.

It should be noted that they're also counted amongst the most powerful classes right besides clerics and wizards, because a well-prepared artificer can do pretty much everything they can do, because an artificer can replace any requirement needed to create an magic item with an UMD check, even when creating scrolls and wands. So, it might be argued that they're still casting from the Wisard/Cleric lists, just by using self-made scrolls - in addition to their own "totally not spells"-infusions.

[Karnith]

Artificers are found in the Eberron Player Guide, if I remember correctly.
Actually, they're in the Eberron Campaign Setting.

[Empedocles]

Scan through this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=13161141#post13161141) list of 3rd party classes, and organize the table by "Role". Many casters on the list dont use traditional magic.

[Sgt. Cookie]

Depending on how you define "magic" I've made a Blue Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12648559#post12648559), based heavily on the Final Fantasy version, using Monster abilities and all that.

[killem2]

Depending on how you define "magic" I've made a Blue Mage (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12648559#post12648559), based heavily on the Final Fantasy version, using Monster abilities and all that.

I do like it, but I dont know if the monster list is large enough for me to incorporate it.

It does make me wonder if a strago like class could be made. hmm

[avr]

If you've got some magic based off odd bloodlines, the dragonmarks in the Eberron Campaign Setting & the book Dragonmarked seem like a natural match. They're basically feat based spell-like abilities, but there are prestige classes in both those books for those who want to get more into them.

If you're banning T1-T2 classes in general, don't let the Artificer get a foot in the door.

Pathfinder's monk with the Qinggong (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/monk/archetypes/paizo---monk-archetypes/qinggong-monk) archetype gets a few SLA's.

[avr]

Also, some of these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=255468) homebrew disciplines turn ToB classes into something more magical.

[killem2]

No it isn't t1 or t2, it nothing to do with tiers actually at all.

My players don't change the game in such a way that I would ever need to do that.

This is just trying to fit the magic to my new world. The easiest way I can explain it is that anything psionic that uses the power is is pretty much out (which is why soul knife is still here), anything that specifically has spells per day from the arcane wizards/sorcerer list in any fashion, isn't out but it might as well be. and same thing with divine if you have to pick a domain or you prepare spells per day from those list, its gone.

But, it is why I am doing gestalts (probably start at ECL 3), so if say someone wanted a paladin or say a ranger, they could take another class to fill in the gaps if they feel they need to fill in the gaps.


Aside from this, Guns outside of big things like cannons or hand held bombs, are simple weapons. :)

In this strange new world, magic isn't gone, its just what had take a major back seat the much more powerful psionic/arcane/divine now is the big dog in the magic arena now.

So far only one person has shown interest in any of my choices and that is warlock. One person thought about factotum, but is reconsidering because he is interested in the ranger/scout gestalt instead, and the other wants possibly rogue/gunslinger or marshal/gunslinger.


We are also doing no multiclass or prestige (unless the class is only 5-10 levels which some are)

[ArcturusV]

Well, I'd say Shugenja is somewhat different. You have a Spontaneous "Divine" caster who has a mix of Wizard and Cleric spells for the most part. They also have Divine Focuses (Separate ones) for every friggin' spell they cast. Meaning your Shugenja has to lug around a sack full of scrolls to have all his Spells Known actually available, and they need to be able to pull them out when they cast.

[KillingAScarab]

Regarding Strago, you do seem to have a bit of a "War of the Magi" thing going on. Keep in mind that NPCs in Thamasa (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Thamasa) were able to cast regular spells like cure and blizzard, being the hidden descendents of the Magi.


One person thought about factotum, but is reconsidering because he is interested in the ranger/scout gestalt instead...Page 13 of Complete Warrior has non-spellcasting variants of both paladin and ranger, giving them spell-like or supernatural abilities, instead. I don't think I would ever take either of them over the regular variety, but they exist.



We are also doing no multiclass or prestige (unless the class is only 5-10 levels which some are)There are very few prestige classes which are less than 5 levels or more than 10 (before epic level progression). The prestige bard, paladin and ranger from Unearthed Arcana and the Necrocarnate from Magic of Incarnum are about all I can think of. The paragon classes and maybe that outrider PrC from Complete Adventurer were fewer than 5 levels?

[ArcturusV]

Wonderworker and Sword of Righteousness as 3 level PrCs. Maho-Tsukai being a 20 level PrC (normally 14 but level trade is in included, but still without the trade it's 14 levels).

But yeah, they are rare breeds.

[ironwizard]

The abysmal Void Disciple from CD is a 13 level PrC.

[KillingAScarab]

...abysmal Void...Heheh. Nice pun.

[killem2]

Well, I'd say Shugenja is somewhat different. You have a Spontaneous "Divine" caster who has a mix of Wizard and Cleric spells for the most part. They also have Divine Focuses (Separate ones) for every friggin' spell they cast. Meaning your Shugenja has to lug around a sack full of scrolls to have all his Spells Known actually available, and they need to be able to pull them out when they cast.



I will read it over again, a lot of the classes i did give the quick chop if I saw any spells per day. I will look again. )





There are very few prestige classes which are less than 5 levels or more than 10 (before epic level progression). The prestige bard, paladin and ranger from Unearthed Arcana and the Necrocarnate from Magic of Incarnum are about all I can think of. The paragon classes and maybe that outrider PrC from Complete Adventurer were fewer than 5 levels?

You are correct, it does have a strong war of the magii feel, most monsters will probably have some spells from spell like abilities from their genes.

The 5/10 level thing I was referring to was the herbalist and the phsycian they are base classes with only 5 or 10 levels max.

[Talionis]

Chameleon has interesting casting. (Races of Destiny)

They can literally cast any spell Arcane or Divine, but they technically have spell like abilities that mimic casting of up to sixth level.

I often refluff this as being nothing like arcane and divine magic, thus the higher level spells are not available.

[KillingAScarab]

Chameleon has interesting casting. (Races of Destiny)

They can literally cast any spell Arcane or Divine, but they technically have spell like abilities that mimic casting of up to sixth level.They aren't spell-like abilities. You actually prepare and cast arcane spells as a wizard would or divine spells as a cleric would (possibly both with double aptitude at 7th level), including needing to rest beforehand. You're limited to 6th level spells slots at the highest, but you can choose which list you're casting from.

[Talionis]

They aren't spell-like abilities. You actually prepare and cast arcane spells as a wizard would or divine spells as a cleric would (possibly both with double aptitude at 7th level), including needing to rest beforehand. You're limited to 6th level spells slots at the highest, but you can choose which list you're casting from.

Sorry you don't see it as different than actual Arcane and Divine casting.

Another option not mentioned would be Runescarred Barbarian.

[killem2]

Sorry you don't see it as different than actual Arcane and Divine casting.

Another option not mentioned would be Runescarred Barbarian.

That sounds awesome where is that at??

[Talionis]

That sounds awesome where is that at??

There is at least a version in Unapproachable East, but there maybe another version somewhere else. That version does say they are treated as a divine spells though.

[killem2]

There is at least a version in Unapproachable East, but there maybe another version somewhere else. That version does say they are treated as a divine spells though.

Hmm I'll take a look.

My issue is, I want the magic to be diverse. Casting the very same spells just through a different manner doesn't change that for me, which is why I have some problems with classes that do 90% of what a wizard/cleric spell list can do, except they do it by tap dancing three time and saying beetlejuice, beetlejuice, beetlejuice, and then it goes off.

I like these classes that either have a total new way of magic (binder warlock) or they use the core ways of divine/arcane but it is very limited (hearblist or factotum), and I don't just mean limited in the way a bard has lower spells per day or progression vs a full blown wizards.


I almost was going to allow wizards/clerics but they had to stick to one school, or only choose spells from their given domains and nothing else.

but I scrapped that idea. maybe some other time for that.

[KillingAScarab]

My issue is, I want the magic to be diverse. Casting the very same spells just through a different manner doesn't change that for me, which is why I have some problems with classes that do 90% of what a wizard/cleric spell list can do, except they do it by tap dancing three time and saying beetlejuice, beetlejuice, beetlejuice, and then it goes off.So, I should forget about suggesting Monte Cook's spellsong variant bard? :smallwink:

[killem2]

Finally I found this thread, why is there no search function anymore?

Anyway, So far, in this gestalt world 4 of my 5 players have created characters.

Warlock/ Fighter
Dragon Shaman/Warrior
Gunslinger/Monk
Gunslinger/Rogue

and I think the last person is seriously considering Herbalist/Physician.

My players really have taken to the new world of lower magic, it really opens up the use of other classes.

[FleshrakerAbuse]

Huh. Has anyone brought up spirit shaman? It's a more basic version of the druid with a cooler spell mechanic and good flavor, and if you rein in spell levels down to 6th level, will act quite different from the standard wizard/cleric.

War of the Magi has been mention; this really seems like it.

[Doorhandle]

Would a Wu-jen count? They seem to have a lot of unique spells.

[killem2]

Would a Wu-jen count? They seem to have a lot of unique spells.

If it uses the spells per day method of spell casting, I've axed it. Like sorcerer, wizard, ect

[KillingAScarab]

Finally I found this thread, why is there no search function anymore?Subscribing to your own thread seems like the best way to keep track of it. That or Google. Does anyone else think it strange to use, "the search giant," to search Giant?


Anyway, So far, in this gestalt world 4 of my 5 players have created characters.

Warlock/ Fighter
Dragon Shaman/Warrior
Gunslinger/Monk
Gunslinger/Rogue

and I think the last person is seriously considering Herbalist/Physician.

My players really have taken to the new world of lower magic, it really opens up the use of other classes.Glad to hear the setting and restrictions are well received. I've been looking over dragon shaman lately since I noticed a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=214007) for it here. I think raising the dead is the only thing they're lacking from the healer skillset. Oh, and if anyone is interested in incarnum, there's a thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=281631) which just popped up discussing what the classes can do. As Psyren said in that thread, incarnum goes with everything. :smallsmile:

Someone even re-posted on minmax (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=9735.0) that old archived soulborn handbook, with a link to the Dragon Magic soulmelds (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060912a&page=4). There has been actual discussion about the soulborn class other than "it is bad," which is great for me.


If it uses the spells per day method of spell casting, I've axed it. Like sorcerer, wizard, ectYep, Wu-Jen is quite similar to wizard. Spirit shaman also uses spells per day, the difference is it's a spontaneous divine caster which chooses which spells it can cast for the day. Instead of a spells known table, they have a spells retrieved table, and every spell level has a maximum of 3. They get quite a few other class features, a number of which are spell-like abilities (the spirit journey at 17th level is super weird). Found in Complete Divine if you want to check them out, but I don't think you do. They are still primarily a spellcaster with just as many spells per day as a sorcerer.