Magic Jar as poor man's Astral Projection

[ahenobarbi]

Well not so poor the man in question is 9th level Wizard with full WBL (and not so man as he is a Tiefling). But I wanted to use Magic Jar to keep me somewhat safer.

Obtain a creature with a nice body
Cast Magic Jar
Posses creature from step 1
Put body and gem in a nice, safe box
Adventure in a new, better body (carrying box with original body)
Don't die when killed (just return to original body and teleport to safety)


It does have some problems (protection from X, AMF, ...) but will provide my character with better survivability. What do you think about it? What body could I use?

[Garagos]

Are you planning on recasting the spell every 9 hours to keep that body? Otherwise, whatever creature you possess will eventually come out of the gem back to its own body, and probably wanna smash you into goo.

[ericgrau]

Protection from evil explicitly blocks possession but does not end a pre-existing possession. So most foes won't even think to attempt it until it's too late.

I'm not sure what would happen in an AMF. Your actual soul or life force is in the new body. I don't think it would return even in an AMF. Dispel magic would make it return only because dispelling effectively ends a spell, and magic jar has a special effect for when the spell ends. Just like dispelling a fly spell makes the subject fall slowly, because that's what fly does when it ends, whereas an AMF causes a violent fall. Or your DM might reasonably say that the spell is the only thing mantaining the soul swap, and that the souls will fly out and try to find their original host (if in range) once the magic is gone in an AMF.

It seems like a great tactic. The only obstacle is re-establishing control when it expires as mentioned. Extend spell via a feat or rod seems like a good idea. Enlarge spell for a longer range might help too, depending on your method of securing the gem.

[Evard]

Oooo and when the DM takes your box you will have a countdown till you at least get close enough to not die.

That would make a good encounter/side plot for one session where it gets stolen and your Magic Jar is about to expire...

[Piggy Knowles]

Just be sure you don't lose that box. If your host body dies, you must be within medium range of your magic jar, or you will die. That means that, at CL 9, you can never be more than 190 feet from your magic jar. Makes the whole trick a lot less compelling, unfortunately.


If the host body is slain, you return to the magic jar, if within range, and the life force of the host departs (it is dead). If the host body is slain beyond the range of the spell, both you and the host die. Any life force with nowhere to go is treated as slain.

That said, I've got a build kicking around somewhere that uses Magic Jar alongside a Simulacrum SLA to make and control clones. Haven't had the chance to play it yet, though.

[TuggyNE]

I'm frankly a little puzzled why you're footling around with magic jar when, at the same level and for only a moderate ongoing cost, you could simply lesser planar bind a Nightmare for real astral projection.

Just putting that out there.

[ericgrau]

I'm frankly a little puzzled why you're footling around with magic jar when, at the same level and for only a moderate ongoing cost, you could simply lesser planar bind a Nightmare for real astral projection.

Just putting that out there.

30-40% failure chance, followed by 5-10% failure chance, followed by 40-90% chance each day that it gets the 5-10% chance again (and a delay of a day). Then you must pay him a reasonable gp fee for a full day's service which is probably on the order of a few hundred gp based on fees of similar level. Unless you want the evil bugger to say "sweet, contract over after a few minutes? Time to go loot and kill your original body!" Then, after 4 days or so, you get your astral projection. Then if his 45 hp self dies on the astral plane you're stuck there because you're 4 levels away from getting plane shift. How far you need to go on the astral plane, if at all, is up to your DM or the manual of the planes perhaps.

Other than that, ya, it works fine.

[ahenobarbi]

Are you planning on recasting the spell every 9 hours to keep that body? Otherwise, whatever creature you possess will eventually come out of the gem back to its own body, and probably wanna smash you into goo.

I want to get a creature that will let me posses it every day for some hours (I want my character to spend non-adventuring hours in it's regular body).

So probably some mindless minion. And it should be able to speak and have proper hands (so I can cast spells).

Creating undead for this purpose is only thing I can think of (maybe golem or effigy but they are pricey).


Protection from evil explicitly blocks possession but does not end a pre-existing possession. So most foes won't even think to attempt it until it's too late.

The problem is that protection from evil suppresses possession. So... I can not act while it's in place. It's not so bad if I'm possessing minion because I can just go back to original body.

But a creature with Circle against X getting close to me will shut cost me a turn no-save. Which kind of sucks.

I can contingency around it in a few levels though.


Oooo and when the DM takes your box you will have a countdown till you at least get close enough to not die.

That would make a good encounter/side plot for one session where it gets stolen and your Magic Jar is about to expire...

Yup, I'll need to protect my original body properly. Also I'm consulting this with DM before actually using this in game so I don't think I'll be screwed for doing this (too much).

I think I will put my original in metal box with comfy cusion (so it won't be damaged in transport), carry the box with my new body (so it's always close), with alarm (so I'll know if any creature gets into the box).


I'm frankly a little puzzled why you're footling around with magic jar when, at the same level and for only a moderate ongoing cost, you could simply lesser planar bind a Nightmare for real astral projection.

Just putting that out there.

I asked DM and he didn't like idea of calling creatures to get access to 9th level spells 8 levels early.

[Crake]

The problem is that protection from evil suppresses possession. So... I can not act while it's in place. It's not so bad if I'm possessing minion because I can just go back to original body.

But a creature with Circle against X getting close to me will shut cost me a turn no-save. Which kind of sucks.

I can contingency around it in a few levels though.

I've always figured that control is only granted back to the owner of the body if their soul is actually in there. If your soul is the sole occupier of the body, their soul cant control it no matter what. And since their soul is trapped in the gem, your soul is the only one there, so you'd maintain control. Its either that or their body just falls down, limp and lifeless, since no soul is able to control it.

[Spuddles]

Just be sure you don't lose that box. If your host body dies, you must be within medium range of your magic jar, or you will die. That means that, at CL 9, you can never be more than 190 feet from your magic jar. Makes the whole trick a lot less compelling, unfortunately.



That said, I've got a build kicking around somewhere that uses Magic Jar alongside a Simulacrum SLA to make and control clones. Haven't had the chance to play it yet, though.

The gem is quite small. Could easily keep it in a horde gullet or on a familiar's necklace in a familiar pocket.

[Evard]

I want to get a creature that will let me posses it every day for some hours (I want my character to spend non-adventuring hours in it's regular body).

So probably some mindless minion. And it should be able to speak and have proper hands (so I can cast spells).

Creating undead for this purpose is only thing I can think of (maybe golem or effigy but they are pricey).



The problem is that protection from evil suppresses possession. So... I can not act while it's in place. It's not so bad if I'm possessing minion because I can just go back to original body.

But a creature with Circle against X getting close to me will shut cost me a turn no-save. Which kind of sucks.

I can contingency around it in a few levels though.



Yup, I'll need to protect my original body properly. Also I'm consulting this with DM before actually using this in game so I don't think I'll be screwed for doing this (too much).

I think I will put my original in metal box with comfy cusion (so it won't be damaged in transport), carry the box with my new body (so it's always close), with alarm (so I'll know if any creature gets into the box).



I asked DM and he didn't like idea of calling creatures to get access to 9th level spells 8 levels early.


Well duh, that is why you spring it on him during a game and let him decide quickly and possibly in your favore without much thought.....

Oh wait that should have been blue...

[ahenobarbi]

The gem is quite small. Could easily keep it in a horde gullet or on a familiar's necklace in a familiar pocket.

Oh! Keeping it in my stomach sounds good :smallsmile: Thanks!


Well duh, that is why you spring it on him during a game and let him decide quickly and possibly in your favore without much thought.....

Oh wait that should have been blue...

I prefer to check with DM first it's not like I'm underpowered.


So does anyone have ideas of creatures that:
- Have proper arms (I need them for somatic component of spellcasting).
- Can speak (verbal component)
- Will let my character possess it on daily basis
?

Skeleton would fit first and last requirement but I don't think they can speak...

[Psyren]

The gem is quite small. Could easily keep it in a horde gullet or on a familiar's necklace in a familiar pocket.

Keeping it in an extraplanar space does not sound like a good idea. Spells don't work across planes unless specified, so you will be considered out of range of the jar and therefore disembodied.

[Garagos]

Having a golem of some type built is probably the best type of creature as it would obey your commands, but I'm not sure if golems technically have souls. I think if I was the DM, I wouldn't allow you to jump to a body that didn't have a soul to send into the gem in place of your soul.

I suggest travelling to a part of your campaign world where slavery is acceptable and buying a slave for this purpose. You could probably find monstrous humanoids or maybe even giants if you look hard enough. Minotaur, ogre, some type of low CR giant all sound like decent options.

[ahenobarbi]

Keeping it in an extraplanar space does not sound like a good idea. Spells don't work across planes unless specified, so you will be considered out of range of the jar and therefore disembodied.

Hoard gullet is extraplanar storage? ... doh. Well then I'll use metal box. Thanks for pointing out that problem.


Having a golem of some type built is probably the best type of creature as it would obey your commands, but I'm not sure if golems technically have souls. I think if I was the DM, I wouldn't allow you to jump to a body that didn't have a soul to send into the gem in place of your soul.

They are animated by elemental spirit I guess is kind of like a soul. Only problem with golems is that they are rather expensive for my level (Flesh Golem is the cheapest but costs 20'000 gp).

I could buy an effigy but it would be kinda expensive too (2000gp per HD... either I buy an exepsive body or it won't serve for long).


I suggest travelling to a part of your campaign world where slavery is acceptable and buying a slave for this purpose. You could probably find monstrous humanoids or maybe even giants if you look hard enough. Minotaur, ogre, some type of low CR giant all sound like decent options.

Wouldn't they resist possession?

[Evard]

I prefer to check with DM first it's not like I'm underpowered....

You missed the point of the "oh wait that should have been blue"

[Psyren]

Hoard gullet is extraplanar storage?

It functions as a bag of holding. I think the more accurate term might be "nondimensional," but the point is the gem won't be on the same plane as you.

[ericgrau]

The problem is that protection from evil suppresses possession. So... I can not act while it's in place. It's not so bad if I'm possessing minion because I can just go back to original body.
I think that's only charm and domination. The charm/domination text is followed by:


Likewise, the barrier keeps out a possessing life force but does not expel one if it is in place before the spell is cast

It's confusing because they bunch it all together. But if your souls are swapped and they stay swapped, I don't see why you wouldn't be in control. I'm pretty sure the suppression applies only to charm/dominate and this part applies only to magic jar.

[ahenobarbi]

It's confusing because they bunch it all together. But if your souls are swapped and they stay swapped, I don't see why you wouldn't be in control. I'm pretty sure the suppression applies only to charm/dominate and this part applies only to magic jar.

Hmm thanks. I hope translators to my native language got this right (my DM uses translated text to make rulings... and translations sometimes have consequences wildly different from English original rules).

[Garagos]

Wouldn't they resist possession?

What's your character's alignment? I'm sure you could threaten them with far worse than mere possession if you're not a Good character. If you are Good, Charm them first.

[ahenobarbi]

What's your character's alignment? I'm sure you could threaten them with far worse than mere possession if you're not a Good character. If you are Good, Charm them first.

Neutral Good. Charming might work. Still seems rather evil.

After checking a bit it seems that even if I could possess construct it's extremely expensive. They cost like 2000gp per HD...

So my options are:
- Slave(s).
- Undead.
- Simulacra (I think it's too expensive but they are way cheaper than constructs (though repair cost is kinda high)).

[ericgrau]

I was thinking random monsters you fight. It's a will save but you can retry each round. Most possession targets won't even know to hunt for the gem, and those that do and pass the high DC spellcraft ("identify a spell you saved against") may not be able to get to it. Some decoy gems could help, along with the time pressure of fighting your allies.

The hardest part is distinguishing friends from foe while you're in the gem. More identifiable hosts like those powered by negative energy (undead) are better. And you want one with opposable thumbs and a voice to cast. Only problem there is you need someone to scout ahead. Invisibility could help. You could also give 50 gp potions of protection from evil to your party to all down at once before the assault. Casting it yourself is sometimes possible, but noisier, time consuming, and requires an assault within 10 minutes instead of within hours.

The much easier way is to capture a defeated foe instead of killing him. Still faces the opposable thumbs problem though.

[Phelix-Mu]

It functions as a bag of holding. I think the more accurate term might be "nondimensional," but the point is the gem won't be on the same plane as you.

Hmm, I thought they dropped the term "nondimensional" for 3e and went with "extradimensional" for everything. I remember in 2e there used to be a distinction. Can I get a source, oh Most Honorable Psyren?

[TuggyNE]

And you want one with opposable thumbs and a voice to cast.

"Who's got two thumbs, a nice strong casting voice, and a possessing life force utilizing its body to the fullest? This guy!"

:smallbiggrin:

[Psyren]

Hmm, I thought they dropped the term "nondimensional" for 3e and went with "extradimensional" for everything. I remember in 2e there used to be a distinction. Can I get a source, oh Most Honorable Psyren?

"The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space" - second sentence in the description.

I'm unsure what, if any, distinction exists between extra- and nondimensional. Again, I simply take them both to mean "not on the same plane as you."

[Phelix-Mu]

"The bag of holding opens into a nondimensional space" - second sentence in the description.

I'm unsure what, if any, distinction exists between extra- and nondimensional. Again, I simply take them both to mean "not on the same plane as you."

Hmm, maybe I had it backwards. Thanks.

Back to the OP, I always found magic jar to be very complicated and poorly written. It's nice to see someone experimenting with it, since it clarifies some of its intended usage in my mind.

The main experience I had with it was...shadow demons from BoVD, methinks. They were supposed to use it in SLA form as a means to capture the souls of mortals, but I looked at the spell and just couldn't come up with exactly how that was an expected outcome.