Could Haley be wrong about the nature of the Draketooths' paranoia?

[Amphiox]

We know that Girard Draketooth was a paranoid basterd, but the whole "will only trust members of his own family" thing comes from Haley.

What if she was *slightly* wrong about that?

Since the brother-knifing-brother-in-the-back is quite literally one of the oldest betrayal tropes in the book, it stands to reason that a truly epic-level paranoia character wouldn't trust his family, at least not entirely.

So is it possible that Girard Draketooth set up a back-up plan for defending his gate that does not involve any member of his family, precisely for the contingency wherein a member of his family betrays the cause, or fails in some other manner?

If so, said contingency should still be active.

[Shadowknight12]

If it exists, it's not going to be that effective, dramatically speaking. The order needs to blow up this gate so that the stakes at the next one are the highest, and that means that this gate must fall. Whatever defences Girard has left need to be irrelevant enough that the Order will choose to destroy the gate rather than letting it fall into the wrong hands.

[Rakoa]

If it exists, it's not going to be that effective, dramatically speaking. The order needs to blow up this gate so that the stakes at the next one are the highest, and that means that this gate must fall. Whatever defences Girard has left need to be irrelevant enough that the Order will choose to destroy the gate rather than letting it fall into the wrong hands.

As much as I hate the deterministic argument here, it's quite true. The gate will explode, no matter what the characters do or what defences are prepared, for the purpose of drama. The reason we are reading right now isn't to find out what will happen (the gate explodes) but to find out how it will happen.

[Olinser]

We know that Girard Draketooth was a paranoid basterd, but the whole "will only trust members of his own family" thing comes from Haley.

What if she was *slightly* wrong about that?

Since the brother-knifing-brother-in-the-back is quite literally one of the oldest betrayal tropes in the book, it stands to reason that a truly epic-level paranoia character wouldn't trust his family, at least not entirely.

So is it possible that Girard Draketooth set up a back-up plan for defending his gate that does not involve any member of his family, precisely for the contingency wherein a member of his family betrays the cause, or fails in some other manner?

If so, said contingency should still be active.

Not necessarily. I've pointed this out in another thread, but there are many kinds of paranoia when it comes to protecting objects.

There are basically 4 major kinds of ways that a paranoid will protect something:

1) Trust only himself. Always keep the object on his person, and obsessively run, hide, and stay on the move, convinced people are out to get him.

2) Attempt to create impenetrable defenses, with him and object at the center. He will trust either only himself or a tiny circle of servants/family, and obsessively check every defense and the object itself.

3) Create impenetrable defenses - that even HE has no ability to penetrate. Will continue to craft more and more elaborate defenses around the object. Will NOT check the object itself - any attempt by anybody to convince him that the object could have been stolen is simply their attempt to get him to open the defenses for him.

4) A subtrope of 1 & 3 - rather than attempt to run or hide, he will attempt to kill/destroy anybody he sees as a threat to his continued possession of the object.

If Girard is a type 3 - it means that nobody in the Draketooth family knows how to penetrate the inner layers of defenses (or they are booby-trapped to destroy the Gate if somebody tries), may not even know WHAT the defenses are, and possibly don't even know the significance of what they are guarding. They may have been told as little as, "You are guarding a super-secret McGuffin! There are 4 others, that are tracked with this device. If the McGuffin is compromised, it may lead to VERY BAD THINGS FOR THE WORLD. Do not ever attempt to enter chamber X, the defenses will immediately destroy you and everything in the vicinity, including the McGuffin."

And of course there is the possibility that the entire Draketooth stronghold is just a red herring. The REAL Gate is hidden someplace else, perfectly protected from scrying, and the only way to get there is to stand in a specific spot in the ziggurat, perform the elaborate secret dance of Gate-Revealing, and speak the exact phrase, "Soon eats poo and likes it, and I am a duck-billed wallaby that enjoys Cajun food and ballroom dancing."

So even if a Draketooth wanted to turn traitor - it is possible that it won't matter, because they still wouldn't know how to penetrate the last layer of defenses without destroying the Gate.

[Olinser]

As much as I hate the deterministic argument here, it's quite true. The gate will explode, no matter what the characters do or what defences are prepared, for the purpose of drama. The reason we are reading right now isn't to find out what will happen (the gate explodes) but to find out how it will happen.

UNLESS - Xykon takes control of the Gate, and starts the ritual, but it takes weeks to finish. During that time, Thor (or any other God would do), or hell, even Eugene, came down and revealed that there is a SECOND ritual that would stop Xykon's - but it has to be performed at the final Gate. If second ritual has a casting time of, say, 1 week, compared to 4 weeks for Xykon's (just throwing out numbers, they don't have to be right).

That turns it into a race against time. The OOTS has exactly 3 weeks to take the final Gate to stop Xykon.

[Amphiox]

So even if a Draketooth wanted to turn traitor - it is possible that it won't matter, because they still wouldn't know how to penetrate the last layer of defenses without destroying the Gate.

That would be one example of what I mean by a non-familial contingency plan.

[Amphiox]

If it exists, it's not going to be that effective, dramatically speaking. The order needs to blow up this gate so that the stakes at the next one are the highest, and that means that this gate must fall. Whatever defences Girard has left need to be irrelevant enough that the Order will choose to destroy the gate rather than letting it fall into the wrong hands.

Every prior gate before this one in the narrative had a defence that seriously inconvenienced, delayed, and/or even significantly hurt Team Evil. In fact all three times TE actually came quite close being totally defeated by those defences. If the OOTS just blows this one up without having TE at least get tested by the defences, it would be a major break from the established pattern.

[Mike Havran]

I actually hope for some kind of subversion of the "this gate will get destroyed because drama says the last one has to be the one for a climatic showdown" determinism.

I think that building an epic illusion of the gate in the depths of the pyramid, and then having it explode when, say, anybody casts a spell within certain radius of it, would be completely within Girard's character.

[Snails]

I think that building an epic illusion of the gate in the depths of the pyramid, and then having it explode when, say, anybody casts a spell within certain radius of it, would be completely within Girard's character.

A well protected Fake Gate seems pretty likely. And there is no reason not to make it easy to blow up -- its apparent destruction would be intended to buy Clan Girard time to regroup and gather reinforcements, after having had a chance to assess the threat.

[SaintRidley]

I actually hope for some kind of subversion of the "this gate will get destroyed because drama says the last one has to be the one for a climatic showdown" determinism.

I think that building an epic illusion of the gate in the depths of the pyramid, and then having it explode when, say, anybody casts a spell within certain radius of it, would be completely within Girard's character.

Perhaps setting off the run to Kraagor's Gate, the destruction of Kraagor's Gate, and a couple characters putting the pieces together and realizing Girard's Gate is still intact?

[Rakoa]

Perhaps setting off the run to Kraagor's Gate, the destruction of Kraagor's Gate, and a couple characters putting the pieces together and realizing Girard's Gate is still intact?

Oooo, now THAT would be something I would love to see.

[Zmeoaice]

Perhaps setting off the run to Kraagor's Gate, the destruction of Kraagor's Gate, and a couple characters putting the pieces together and realizing Girard's Gate is still intact?

There was the gate-tracking thing, so it is possible that they would simply see that and realize that Girard's Gate is still intact.

[FujinAkari]

I've always liked the idea that the OOTS is now going to a fake-gate, that Girard was pulling a double-bluff on EVERYONE and had himself and his family defending a phoney gate. The ACTUAL Gate was hidden in a series of permanent illusions and safeguarded in the fact that no one knew where the gate actually was (including Serini, so sucks to be Xykon!)

[Rakoa]

There was the gate-tracking thing, so it is possible that they would simply see that and realize that Girard's Gate is still intact.

Yeah, I wouldn't think that master illusionist would have any way to trick people with magic or something.

[JCAll]

Yeah, I wouldn't think that master illusionist would have any way to trick people with magic or something.

We know who built the gates, but who built the monitoring devices?
If it was Draketooth, he could have a deception programmed in.

[JavaScribe]

I've always liked the idea that the OOTS is now going to a fake-gate, that Girard was pulling a double-bluff on EVERYONE and had himself and his family defending a phoney gate. The ACTUAL Gate was hidden in a series of permanent illusions and safeguarded in the fact that no one knew where the gate actually was (including Serini, so sucks to be Xykon!)
It's an interesting idea, but unlikely, since without something sentient to guard the gate, it will not withstand the test of time.

[SadisticFishing]

I actually think this gate being fake is a bit unlikely, but also, that it would make for a less interesting story. We've seen the shell game before.

He was an Illusionist/Ranger, but not a thief. Maybe he thinks in straightforward ways, maybe he's arrogant, and maybe leaving a gate almost completely defenseless, even if hidden, is a bad idea. There is no magic so powerful that stronger magic can't break it, or track it, or find it.

"It's impossible to find" is also bad storytelling. It's similar to the way that all phylacteries in all fiction are in places special to the lich. "WHY wouldn't you bury it under a million tons of whatever?" Though I've always imagined it as being very difficult to do that to the only remains of your mortal soul, the real reason is "because that'd make for a crappy story".

Also, they found the rifts in the first place, somehow. That can likely be done again.

[phobiandarkmoon]

I've always liked the idea that the OOTS is now going to a fake-gate, that Girard was pulling a double-bluff on EVERYONE and had himself and his family defending a phoney gate. The ACTUAL Gate was hidden in a series of permanent illusions and safeguarded in the fact that no one knew where the gate actually was (including Serini, so sucks to be Xykon!)

Unlikely, considering we know from the Oracle that Xykon will next be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate... though I suppose he could turn up, be unable to find it and leave without being able to see it juuuuuust over there...

[F.Harr]

We know that Girard Draketooth was a paranoid basterd, but the whole "will only trust members of his own family" thing comes from Haley.

What if she was *slightly* wrong about that?

Since the brother-knifing-brother-in-the-back is quite literally one of the oldest betrayal tropes in the book, it stands to reason that a truly epic-level paranoia character wouldn't trust his family, at least not entirely.

So is it possible that Girard Draketooth set up a back-up plan for defending his gate that does not involve any member of his family, precisely for the contingency wherein a member of his family betrays the cause, or fails in some other manner?

If so, said contingency should still be active.

One hopes. But a bit of hyperbole is a very thin reed to hand the OotS's hopes on.

[Zallera]

Considering all 3 gates we have seen so far had some form of Epic Protection on them I wouldn't be surprised if Girard's gate had something similar protecting it. (maybe an Epic illusion spell that laughs at any non epic Divination spell thrown its way or something similar)

[Amphiox]

Unlikely, considering we know from the Oracle that Xykon will next be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate... though I suppose he could turn up, be unable to find it and leave without being able to see it juuuuuust over there...

What if the illusion of the fake gate was placed exactly 1000 feet of the real gate, which has been disguised as a grain of sand?

[KillianHawkeye]

What if none of this is real and we are actually just reading about it on some kind of Internet. Boy, that Girard is sure a genius! :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

[Olinser]

What if none of this is real and we are actually just reading about it on some kind of Internet. Boy, that Girard is sure a genius! :smallamused::smallbiggrin:

But... WHAT IF, the Internet isn't real either, and we're actually in the sub-subconciousness of an alien being tortured for information in a secret underground bunker, and this comic is the slow trickle of information coming from his shattered psyche!!!

[KillianHawkeye]

But... WHAT IF, the Internet isn't real either, and we're actually in the sub-subconciousness of an alien being tortured for information in a secret underground bunker, and this comic is the slow trickle of information coming from his shattered psyche!!!

NO WAY, the alien is probably imagining us all reading a comic as a means of keeping his mind OFF of the sensitive worm hole data he is guarding from his captors, who would surely use that knowledge to become UNSTOPPABLE and spread their evil empire across the universe!!!1!1!!1 :smallamused:

[snikrept]

The serious inconvenience to Team Evil at this gate is provided by Tarquin (together with, possibly, his adventuring party of epic level people)

[137beth]

NO WAY, the alien is probably imagining us all reading a comic as a means of keeping his mind OFF of the sensitive worm hole data he is guarding from his captors, who would surely use that knowledge to become UNSTOPPABLE and spread their evil empire across the universe!!!1!1!!1 :smallamused:

Don't be ridiculous. They'd actually become unstopperable, just like Thog.

[Fish]

I can't help but take note of the following 2 things:

1.
:tarquin: You have two vampire clerics and a wizard, here.
:nale: Just four spellcasters, under my command!

2.
:elan: I'm a spellcaster.
:roy: YOU DON'T COUNT!

Looks like a lampshade to me. The defense of the Gate is probably to detect and thwart spellcasters. Possibly illusionists (like the Draketooths, and Elan) don't count. Neither does Belkar, actually.

[Olinser]

NO WAY, the alien is probably imagining us all reading a comic as a means of keeping his mind OFF of the sensitive worm hole data he is guarding from his captors, who would surely use that knowledge to become UNSTOPPABLE and spread their evil empire across the universe!!!1!1!!1 :smallamused:

UNLESS.... the evil empire has already conquered the universe and this reality is just to keep us in check so they can finish harvesting our souls for use powering their INFINITE LIFE MACHINE!!!!!

[KillianHawkeye]

UNLESS.... the evil empire has already conquered the universe and this reality is just to keep us in check so they can finish harvesting our souls for use powering their INFINITE LIFE MACHINE!!!!!

Okay, you got me. Well played. :smallamused::smallamused: