Is my planned ending anti-climactic?

[Oko and Qailee]

If you are in the Caravans of the Dhan Ras alternate universe campaign please do not read.

So I'm fairly new to DM'ing and I'm currently running an "everything continually gets more over the top" medieval fantasy setting campaign.

To illustrate, the party has currently found a huge sized mecha which they will use to save the world from being destroyed, which occurs every 14.4k years. This occurred and provoked a civil war in 2 different cities simultaneously. To make it a bit more over the top the group is going to find 2 more mecha's which will fuse with the first and for each mecha fused the size modifier of the previous mecha goes up by 2.

Now, this campaign started as someone else campaign, but he was busy and couldn't run it as often as he would like so I started running this as an "alternate universe" of his campaign.

The problem is that I am still a player and my characters development was very important to me before I started DM'ing. I think I have done a good job making my character have the least precedence by essentially letting all the other party members make all the decisions and relegating her role to buffing only.

Given back story elements and other qualities, I want my characters progression to end in a certain way, but I think it makes the end boss fight anti-climactic.

Basically the world ending mentioned above is caused every 14.4k years by a demon who summons a colossal living inferno that wipes out 99% of intelligent species, the demon does this because it feeds off widescale suffering and death. My character was meant to be a tragic hero type character, and I plan on having her bond her soul to the demon (who will be way too strong for the party to beat) in an attempt to bind it for all eternity (via using a modified Sancitify the Wicked spell).

This means the final boss will be the inferno itself as well as any demons the BBED summons, this was what I originally intended to be the final boss. Obviously the Mechas were specifically designed to have an epic duel to the death with the Inferno. (did I mention the final fusion of these mechas is 2k feet tall and they retain all the abilities of the character within them?)

So my question is this. As a player, would you feel ripped off or feel the ending sucks if the Demon itself is somewhat defeated by a single character, even if you get to have the most crazy irrational overpowered boss fight afterward?

[Scow2]

I'm... really not sure. Most of me is saying, "No, that shouldn't work at all! You're pulling a Gandalf here!"

On the other hand, some parties are comfortable with 'scripted' moments, such as a character sacrificing themselves to achieve an end. Make sure you don't deprive the other players of their agency. However, it's pretty risky.

[Oko and Qailee]

On the other hand, some parties are comfortable with 'scripted' moments, such as a character sacrificing themselves to achieve an end. Make sure you don't deprive the other players of their agency. However, it's pretty risky.

Right, well they understand I'm a player I think, and I've largely been not playing. I don't roll skill checks unless they fail or need me specifically to help them. The only thing my character has really done is participate in roleplaying, in which case shes essentially an NPC.

The relationship she has with some of the other characters though, I think makes this a fairly strong moral choice type dealio. Since at least two of them would rather fight to the death than sacrifice her. But I mean, shes an aassimar, and in this universe they exist to fulfill some grand design of The King of Life.

[DeltaEmil]

Give hints that your now nonplayer character has some specific magicks related in somehow weakening that big bad evil demon inferno guy several sessions before, and/or researching for some kind of magick to seal it so that it won't look like it's a bad cheap deus ex machina, but a chekov's gun.
Also, have your character do her sacrifice AFTER the big bad demon inferno guy and its cronies has been largely defeated. Big bad demon inferno guy however cannot be destroyed, so it will reform in a few hours, and then start fighting again, so that the obvious solution is to make it clear that the big bad demon inferno guy has to be sealed away.
However, be prepared that players might find out an ingenious way to defeat your big bad demon inferno guy without your NPC having to sacrifice herself. Don't shoot down any attempts of them to do so.

[Oko and Qailee]

Give hints that your now nonplayer character has some specific magicks related in somehow weakening that big bad evil demon inferno guy several sessions before, and/or researching for some kind of magick to seal it so that it won't look like it's a bad cheap deus ex machina, but a chekov's gun.
Also, have your character do her sacrifice AFTER the big bad demon inferno guy and its cronies has been largely defeated. Big bad demon inferno guy however cannot be destroyed, so it will reform in a few hours, and then start fighting again, so that the obvious solution is to make it clear that the big bad demon inferno guy has to be sealed away.
However, be prepared that players might find out an ingenious way to defeat your big bad demon inferno guy without your NPC having to sacrifice herself. Don't shoot down any attempts of them to do so.

I thought of the reforming thing, which is probably what I was going to do.

I'm probably about to have the party run into one of the origional creators of the mechas (yes, hes 14.4k+ years old, but has gone crazy and stuff etc). That would seem like a good time to give "improved" sanctified spells right? (In contrast the rest of the party gets... you know... mechas)

The players (and me) are mostly new actually. I'm prepared to be open to their solutions, hell I let one of the only experienced players nearly one shot one of my 200hp bosses with his Goliath Lion Totem Barbarian charger build (he actually hit it for 199 damage (after 90 of his damage was reduced!), you can bet the clerics on the enemy team started spamming CCW and Heal).

[Renen]

You can always let the "kill" the boss, to hurt him, and then the character simply makes sure he stays down AFTER the party already bet him. So the bass was beaten by the party, and your character just made sure he doesnt get back up again.

[Susano-wo]

you could try some sort of team piloting scenario, Voltron style. players could use their actions each turn buffing, debuffing, etc, based on their characters powers in game, culminating in one attack using all the buffs and specials

[Oko and Qailee]

you could try some sort of team piloting scenario, Voltron style. players could use their actions each turn buffing, debuffing, etc, based on their characters powers in game, culminating in one attack using all the buffs and specials

My current idea is to split it into two boss fights:

On one side all the melee characters will fight the colossal inferno since they work better in the giant mecha whereas casters receive few tangible benefits from the mecha (maybe 1-2 of the party casters will try to fight the mecha since buffs/debuffs are important)

Meanwhile: The casters of the party battle the demon with the person who made the mecha. The person who made the mecha will teach my character the improved sanctified spell, but plans to use it himself. The Demon will recognize the mecha maker and probably kill him first, which means the rest of the characters have to devise a solution to kill the demon. As a last resort I will sacrifice my character (this boss fight shouldn't have any chance of resulting in a TPK since it's existence is mostly to end my characters story).

From there the campaign MIGHT still continue (to give the other players more importance to their characters) as their is still two cities in a civil war with very powerful people backing each side.

[Sith_Happens]

Wait, I'm confused, are you asking if a fight between a super-giant mecha and the-Snarl-if-it-were-made-of-fire would be anticlimactic? Because here's your answer. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2bfzxuHbYI)

[Oko and Qailee]

Wait, I'm confused, are you asking if a fight between a super-giant mecha and the-Snarl-if-it-were-made-of-fire would be anticlimactic? Because here's your answer. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D2bfzxuHbYI)

because they don't get to kill the thing that makes the-Snarl-if-it-were-made-of-fire.

No joke Gurenn lagann was partially the inspiration for this campaign, I was disappointed when I realized the rules I made for my mechs only resulted in a ~2k ft tall mech. I wasn't expecting galaxy sized, but I was imagining eventually it would crush an entire city with a foot.

[137beth]

because they don't get to kill the thing that makes the-Snarl-if-it-were-made-of-fire.

No joke Gurenn lagann was partially the inspiration for this campaign, I was disappointed when I realized the rules I made for my mechs only resulted in a ~2k ft tall mech. I wasn't expecting galaxy sized, but I was imagining eventually it would crush an entire city with a foot.

Then change your rules to make the mechas larger:smallsmile:

[Oko and Qailee]

Then change your rules to make the mechas larger:smallsmile:

The PC's already know the rules though...

[DeltaEmil]

Fighting the big bad evil demon inferno guy with mountain-sized fantasy mechas seems rather like the high-light of an entire campaign, instead of something you do as a "subplot".

What's going to stop the player characters from simply forcing their will upon the two rival cities with their ubermecha? Surely these two cities won't be strong enough to withstand the piloted gigagolem, since your players would have just defeated a world-ending apocalyptic threat, and it would be highly unsatisfying to tell them that they can't use the ubermechas. The titan-machines breaking down from the battle wouldn't solve anything, because it would just make your players want to repair those awesome engines of destruction, so that they would be able to use them.

One solution would be to integrate the colossus-constructs as part of the "main adventure line", where the two cities do back down before the player characters, and the two would then try to get those magickal combiners with skullduggery or try to bribe the player characters into using their warmachine to destroy their rivals and be done with it.

But the most likely outcome would rather be that the players would simply exile the leadership of both cities into exiles, and force peace upon the two cities. And/or conquering the rest of the world with their humongous toy.

You did mention that this was rather an alternate universe, so ending that adventure would be wise.

[Oko and Qailee]

What's going to stop the player characters from simply forcing their will upon the two rival cities with their ubermecha?

One solution would be to integrate the colossus-constructs as part of the "main adventure line",

But the most likely outcome would rather be that the players would simply exile the leadership of both cities into exiles, and force peace upon the two cities. And/or conquering the rest of the world with their humongous toy.

You did mention that this was rather an alternate universe, so ending that adventure would be wise.

I mean nothing is going to stop them other than their own alignment. Odds are they'll take over the world after, as the part leans evil I think.

The colossus constructs ARE the main storyline, the two cities is a somewhat seperate issue. The cities are at war because said demon has created false visions of the gods of each city to the high level clergy folk of each city. The reason is because two of the mechs were hidden in the cities, the demon didn't know where except in that general area. So the demon basically indirectly created discord within each city in an attempt to distract people from the mechs themselves.

[Oko and Qailee]

You did mention that this was rather an alternate universe, so ending that adventure would be wise.

Why so? It's just a kinda fun quasi random thing

[Kol Korran]

I must admit that the climax sounds pretty epic. However, as a player I'd like a chance facing the big bad itself, and not his sort-of-uber-minion. Had nobody been able to face it I'd sort of accept it. But you're letting the DM's character get an extra special moment, none of the others can have, effectively single-handed shutting down big bad. It would annoy me, and may take some of the fun from the climax (dealing only with second best). But I'd probably get over it. Some player however might not, feeling cheated of their crowning moment...

You know your players better, but at the climax? I'd make it all about the players, facing the outmost threat. I'd make your character shut down the inferno, and let the players deal with the fiend. That I wouldn't .mind at all!

[Oko and Qailee]

I must admit that the climax sounds pretty epic. However, as a player I'd like a chance facing the big bad itself, and not his sort-of-uber-minion. Had nobody been able to face it I'd sort of accept it. But you're letting the DM's character get an extra special moment, none of the others can have, effectively single-handed shutting down big bad. It would annoy me, and may take some of the fun from the climax (dealing only with second best). But I'd probably get over it. Some player however might not, feeling cheated of their crowning moment...

You know your players better, but at the climax? I'd make it all about the players, facing the outmost threat. I'd make your character shut down the inferno, and let the players deal with the fiend. That I wouldn't .mind at all!

This is exactly the kind of frustration I'm imagining. I think you're right and I can imagine as a player that I would think the DM is trying to make their character better.

[Kol Korran]

i'll try to clarify. the main frustration i'd feel as a player is from not facing the big bad of the campaign, less for the DM assuring this with his character. that is a sort of... insult to injury. if i had my fight with the big bad, i'd care less at how the Dm's character ended.

now, if the major threat and hype of the campaign was the inferno, and not the demon (which might have been mentioned but not been the focus of the players), than i wouldn't mind much. But if i get it right, the party is quite into the demon fighting (you even mentuioned they'll start fighting him) and not giving them that feels like cheating their climax away from them.

"giving" their climax to your character would just feels extra annoying to me, like going "nyah nyah nyah" in their faces. this is THE PLAYERS' climax!

maybe to illustrate, i'll give my priorities as a player:
1- fight big bad and inferno! kick their asses (including them kicking ours). if the DM wants to have a cool moment with their character, but where we are still the main stars- go ahead!

close 2nd- fight the demon and... don't fight the inferno for some reason. if the Dm wants to have his moment to stop inferno, that's ok- we still got big bad to beat! woohhoo!

3rd- can't fight big bad? why? but we waited so long for it! we're dealing with "just" the inferno! but big demon created it! we wanna fight him! oh well, still going to be a heck of a fight!

4th- wait... you're saying that WE can't fight big bad but DM'S Character can?!? one shotting it alone, while we settle for second best? after we've built for this the entire campaign?

you see where i'm going... again- some players might accept this more readily (in fact i probably would) but i've played with enough players to know this might just very well happen with at least one player, if not more.

[Oko and Qailee]

now, if the major threat and hype of the campaign was the inferno, and not the demon (which might have been mentioned but not been the focus of the players), than i wouldn't mind much. But if i get it right, the party is quite into the demon fighting (you even mentuioned they'll start fighting him) and not giving them that feels like cheating their climax away from them.
.

To clarify: The party has no clue as to who the big bad is yet, they know about the inferno and thats it. The demon was an additional thing I was going to add in and will probably link this current campaign with my next one (which some of the players will also be in).

The demon hasn't been mentioned at all, so far the party knowledge is limited to:

-The world gets destroyed every 14400 years
-They need the Mechas to stop it
-What little the have translated from a book indicates it's something giant and fiery
-Something is causing two different groups in two different cities to become crazy militarized and the two groups are also searching for the mechas.

[Oko and Qailee]

3rd- can't fight big bad? why? but we waited so long for it! we're dealing with "just" the inferno! but big demon created it! we wanna fight him! oh well, still going to be a heck of a fight!


This is EXACTLY what I was worried about. Thanks a million for your input. I'm going to scrap the idea. I'm going to keep the demon, but allot the party to fight it. We have a ridiculously large party though (8 players) and theres currently only 4 mechas. At the most I might split the party in two (oh no!) and let half fight the demon and the other the inferno.

[Hyde]

WAIT!

Have the party fight the inferno.

And then have the party fight king big bad.

When King Big Bad starts to reform, it becomes apparently that he's not going to stay down without some serious hoodoo.

So the characters can make a choice- they can sacrifice themselves... or try and stop KBB some other way (whatever "some other way" ends up being, it's probably fine to let it work). Have your character be merely the proponent of "hey guys, let's off ourselves to stop this guy", and have it be a party decision and sacrifice.

Other options for how to deal with King Big Bad:

Seal him- bunch of ways to do this. In items or in person(s).

Drain him- find a weakness before tromping on him. Ice? Cats? Whistling (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2r9qRpr67fk)?

Reform him? No, this is stupid. But maybe he's just got some beef the good guys can Dr. Phil.

[Oko and Qailee]

WAIT!

.
Lol, dont worry, I still have a while before this happens. I'm still going to watch this thread in case someone comments.

I like you suggestions, but I really don't want to do anything that takes away from anyone elses enjoyment, as much as I want my character to have a certain event happen to her.

[OzymandiasX]

So my question is this. As a player, would you feel ripped off or feel the ending sucks if the Demon itself is somewhat defeated by a single character, even if you get to have the most crazy irrational overpowered boss fight afterward?

In short: Yes, if you present it the way you just did.

As others have said, you need to make the PC's actions (and victory) the key. A first step is admitting to yourself that your old PC is now an NPC. Then you have the freedom to have the NPC come flat out and say, "If you guys can defeat it and hold it down, I have a ritual that can bind it forever." Put EVERYTHING else on the weight of the PC's shoulders. Maybe even require your NPC to not participate in the combat... as he has to be starting the ritual or something.

For a player, it is ALWAYS more fulfilling to overcome a challenge from the DM than to have the DM overcome a challenge from the DM.