Simplifying Rounds (3.X)

[LordErebus12]

What if we change base attack bonus applies to characters using full attacks and iterative attacks? This is for reducing roll time between players.

Instead of gaining a new iterative attack at each base attack of 6, 11 and 16 for using a full round action;
Instead you roll only one d20 for a standard attack action, and double (BAB+8), triple (BAB+16) the damage dealt by a single attack.

Two weapon fighting allows two separate attacks in a standard action, but they do not recieve the damage multiplier.
Improved two weapon fighting allows the attacks to be multipled by the multiplier.
Greater two weapon fighting no longer exists.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

This kind of fix is proposed frequently, but there are several major problems with this approach. First of all, since BAB scales while AC doesn't, by higher levels it's expected that you hit with your first (and probably second) attack and it's the third or fourth that AC really protects against; you've essentially made all iterative attacks automatically hit, which is indeed a martial powerup but is a big change whose ramifications need to be considered.

Second, what about other attacks? Monsters' natural attacks, Rapid Shot and other "-2 attack for 1 extra attack" abilities, and similar need to be accounted for as well, and you can't just keep adding damage multipliers and expect things to work out. Finally, weapon damage dice don't matter past 5th level or so. Your 11th level example fighter doesn't care about getting an extra +2d6 damage from base weapon dice, since he's losing out on his +6ish Str to damage (+9ish if two-handed), +4ish enhancement bonus to damage, and others that far outweigh the base damage dice.

You'd need to address all three of those issues, as well as figuring out the overall impact these changes will have, before you can consider implementing this change.

[Yitzi]

This kind of fix is proposed frequently, but there are several major problems with this approach. First of all, since BAB scales while AC doesn't

AC actually scales fairly well if you use items to that effect. Perhaps not as well as monster attacks, but certainly on par with character BAB.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

AC actually scales fairly well if you use items to that effect. Perhaps not as well as monster attacks, but certainly on par with character BAB.

I'm talking inherent scaling; since AC scales by equipment only while attack scales by BAB as well, you can only increase AC by increasing other stats or improving items (which can be done with attack bonus as well) or by buying better base armor (which caps around 10 or 12 base AC with modified exotic armors), so you reach a point at mid-high levels where attack bonus outpaces AC if both parties invest the same resources in boosting the appropriate stat.

Regardless, the point remains that if you only multiply weapon damage dice the martial types are shafted due to losing out on most of their damage, and if you multiple all damage then shifting all the damage to your primary attack, when most mid-high level martial characters hit the vast majority of the time with their primary attack, has repercussions that should be examined before just quadrupling damage for martial characters at high levels.

[LordErebus12]

AC actually scales fairly well if you use items to that effect. Perhaps not as well as monster attacks, but certainly on par with character BAB.

for this, i always liked the roll for AC checks. where you roll a d20 instead of taking 10 on Armor Class. Parrying blows and all that, but thats not the point.

[LordErebus12]

Finally, weapon damage dice don't matter past 5th level or so. Your 11th level example fighter doesn't care about getting an extra +2d6 damage from base weapon dice, since he's losing out on his +6ish Str to damage (+9ish if two-handed), +4ish enhancement bonus to damage, and others that far outweigh the base damage dice.


what the heck are you going on about here? you still add str to damage and all that.

the only difference is that you dont make 2-4 attacks at lowering numbers. you make one check, dealing damage as if you had made multiple attacks, without having to actually roll to hit.

16th fighter using longsword and str 16

+19 to hit, dealing 4d8 + Str modifier + etc.
rather than
+19/+14/+9/+4 to hit, dealing 1d8 + Str modifier + etc.

While two weapon fighting grants two d20s per attack roll, taking the higher of both rolls. meaning twice as likely to hit and half as likely to miss.

[Yitzi]

I'm talking inherent scaling; since AC scales by equipment only while attack scales by BAB as well, you can only increase AC by increasing other stats or improving items (which can be done with attack bonus as well) or by buying better base armor (which caps around 10 or 12 base AC with modified exotic armors), so you reach a point at mid-high levels where attack bonus outpaces AC if both parties invest the same resources in boosting the appropriate stat.

It's not so simple, as it's a lot cheaper per point of AC than per point of attack, due to there being a lot more relevant bonus types to get from equipment.


for this, i always liked the roll for AC checks. where you roll a d20 instead of taking 10 on Armor Class. Parrying blows and all that, but thats not the point.

It does add an extra roll to every attack, though, and doesn't really affect the AC/attack comparison much anyway.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

what the heck are you going on about here? you still add str to damage and all that.

You still add Str to damage once. 4 times (1d8+9 Str+4 enhancement +2 Weapon Specialization plus whatever else) is quite different from 4 times (1d8), plus 9 Str + 4 enhancement +2 WS. It's a difference of 45 damage because you're adding it to a single attack instead of to four attacks. An average gain of ~13 damage from the extra 3d8 pales in comparison to that 45 damage lost.


While two weapon fighting grants two d20s per attack roll, taking the higher of both rolls. meaning twice as likely to hit and half as likely to miss.

Incorrect. Best of 2d20 is worth between +1 and +5 based on the target number, and the higher your chance of success the less of a benefit you gain. The average is 13.825 instead of 10.5 on 1d20, not a big change, and you're only "half as likely to miss" if you're near the center of the die: your odds of rolling at least a 10 are 79% instead of 55% but your odds of rolling at least a 19 increase only from 10% to 19%.

[Yora]

In Star Wars Saga, you always get only one attack per round, unless you use skills that work like Rapid Shot. That seems quite neat to me.

[LordErebus12]

In Star Wars Saga, you always get only one attack per round, unless you use skills that work like Rapid Shot. That seems quite neat to me.

now this i like.

[LordErebus12]

You still add Str to damage once. 4 times (1d8+9 Str+4 enhancement +2 Weapon Specialization plus whatever else) is quite different from 4 times (1d8), plus 9 Str + 4 enhancement +2 WS. It's a difference of 45 damage because you're adding it to a single attack instead of to four attacks. An average gain of ~13 damage from the extra 3d8 pales in comparison to that 45 damage lost.

A large oversight on my part. This can be fixed, i think. Perhaps X2, x3 or x4 the flat bonus damage as well?


Incorrect. Best of 2d20 is worth between +1 and +5 based on the target number, and the higher your chance of success the less of a benefit you gain. The average is 13.825 instead of 10.5 on 1d20, not a big change, and you're only "half as likely to miss" if you're near the center of the die: your odds of rolling at least a 10 are 79% instead of 55% but your odds of rolling at least a 19 increase only from 10% to 19%.

Fair enough. Thank you for the correction. lets end this idea, for lack of merit.

[LordErebus12]

Instead of gaining a new iterative attack at each base attack of 6, 11 and 16 for using a full round action;
Instead you roll only one d20 for a standard attack action, and double (BAB+8), triple (BAB+16) the damage dealt by a single attack.

Two weapon fighting allows two separate attacks in a standard action, but they do not recieve the damage multiplier.
Improved two weapon fighting allows the attacks to be multipled by the multiplier.
Greater two weapon fighting no longer exists.

How about this?

[LordErebus12]

gonna revive this for a bit, as it came up recently.