Sneak attack at range? 3.5ed

[PersonofJid]

I'm currently DMing a campaign and have been toying with the idea of making an NPC rogue that uses ranged weapons. However, I realized that I don't quite understand how sneak attack works at range or how effective it would be. I know that you can sneak attack at range, but not much beyond that. Just wondering if I could get some clarification on the subject.

[Callin]

more info needed. Stats if ya can, is it 3.5, 3.P or just Pathfinder? Race? ect ect ect

[Gavinfoxx]

Well, it's generally impossible unless the range is under 30 feet, unless you have a feat that makes it possible at 60 feet and under, or access to a spell that makes it infinite range.

And it works great, provided your enemies are balancing (like with a Grease).

[Mystral]

You can't flank with ranged weapons, so you can only sneak attack while your enemy is denied his dex bonus to AC (You are invisible, he is flat footed, he is balancing without 5 ranks in balance, he is blinded..). You also have to be in 30 feet range.

In 3.5 the archer rogue is somewhat more viable if you can use a combo with demoralize. Also, Archery is considered the strongest fighting style there, by some.

[Gavinfoxx]

Strongest??

What world are you living on??

[Kuulvheysoon]

Strongest??

What world are you living on??

One with no casters, and the Splitting enhancement being common?

[ArcturusV]

Well, it's valued by rogues because it allows them to stand off. But around the table? It's not been all that effective, that I've noticed. The theory of it being Safer, and Just As/More effective never plays out.

1) You still have to be within 30'. This means your "Safety" for standing off is just an illusion. You're well within the range of... well... everything. Melee too if they have half a mind to do it.

2) The most common source for Sneak Attack is Flanking. By using a bow you give that up. You have to count on "Flatfooted", so it's only good for First Strikes, if someone else sets you up (Grease was mentioned. Melee marble throwing as well, stunning, etc).

So you're locked into a 'Shoot and scoot' paradigm. Where you shoot, and then move and hide. So you can get another ambush for Sneak Attack damage again. Which means that your damage output is lowered because you're only getting it once every other round, at best. Unless you have something like Greater Invisibility, plus the "Nothing can pierce my stealth" feat.

But even then just due to how archery works out you're usually worse off than if you used even just a simple dagger and shanked them.

[Kuulvheysoon]

Well, it's valued by rogues because it allows them to stand off. But around the table? It's not been all that effective, that I've noticed. The theory of it being Safer, and Just As/More effective never plays out.

1) You still have to be within 30'. This means your "Safety" for standing off is just an illusion. You're well within the range of... well... everything. Melee too if they have half a mind to do it.

2) The most common source for Sneak Attack is Flanking. By using a bow you give that up. You have to count on "Flatfooted", so it's only good for First Strikes, if someone else sets you up (Grease was mentioned. Melee marble throwing as well, stunning, etc).

So you're locked into a 'Shoot and scoot' paradigm. Where you shoot, and then move and hide. So you can get another ambush for Sneak Attack damage again. Which means that your damage output is lowered because you're only getting it once every other round, at best. Unless you have something like Greater Invisibility, plus the "Nothing can pierce my stealth" feat.

But even then just due to how archery works out you're usually worse off than if you used even just a simple dagger and shanked them.

Note - there is the PHB2 Ranger ACF that lets a melee rogue flank with a ranged ranger. If it's high enough level, a pair of Ranger 4/Rogue 1 sneaks can both attack from range and still get their SA dice.

[gorfnab]

Archery Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=642.0)
Swift Hunter's Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=103)

One way to get sneak attacks at ranged is a Ring of Blinking combined with the feat Pierce Magical Concealment.

Scout from Complete Adventurer make great archers especially Swift Hunter based ones.

Sniper Goggles (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/goggles-sniper-goggles) from Pathfinder allow for sneak attacks at any range.

[WhatBigTeeth]

You might check here (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8273.0;msg=131156) for some ideas.

[Zero grim]

One way to get sneak attacks at ranged is a Ring of Blinking combined with the feat Pierce Magical Concealment.


So Ring of Blinking let you attack targets as if you were invisible so you always get sneak attack, why do you need Pierce Magical Concealment?

[WhatBigTeeth]

So Ring of Blinking let you attack targets as if you were invisible so you always get sneak attack, why do you need Pierce Magical Concealment?
Blink comes with a magical miss chance

[Zero grim]

Thanks WhatBigTeeth, id rather spend the feats on something else myself.

[TypoNinja]

You can't flank with ranged weapons, so you can only sneak attack while your enemy is denied his dex bonus to AC (You are invisible, he is flat footed, he is balancing without 5 ranks in balance, he is blinded..). You also have to be in 30 feet range.


Not Quite. I present to you the most ridiculous archery feat ever printed. From Dragon 350.


Ranged Threat

You can take advantage of a foe who drops his guard near you.
Prerequisite: Combat Reflexes, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: When armed with a ranged weapon, you threaten every square within 15 feet. If a target in this threatened area takes an action that provokes an attack of opportunity, you may make one ranged attack at your highest attack bonus against that target. You may only use this feat once per round, and this counts as all of your attacks of opportunity for that round, even if you are normally allowed more than one.
Special: A fighter may select Ranged Threat as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Threatened squares = flanking with a ranged weapon.

[Erik Vale]

You are all going the wrong way. [No offense by saying wrong.]

Give the NPC a Item of Sniper Snot (http://dndtools.eu/spells/complete-adventurer--54/snipers-shot--383/), and shoot from hiding/other way to make opponent flat footed. You get all the benifits of range and you keep your sneak attack dice irrigardless of range.

[Mystral]

Didn't know that feat. But it doesn't make the archer rogue really viable, as you can only use it once per round and have to get really close. Any enemy bigger then medium or wielding a reach weapon can just 5 foot step to you and do a full attack.

[Callin]

No you can use the threatening part of it all the time. Its the closeness of it that sucks.

[TypoNinja]

No you can use the threatening part of it all the time. Its the closeness of it that sucks.

Yes the range is a little short, but the fact that you threaten everything within 15 feet of you is just a little nuts. Just never take that AoP and get your flanks all day long.

[Gavinfoxx]

Erik... you wanna check your post for misspellings and typos and stuff. ;) ;)

[Yuukale]

ring of blinking+seeking property =)

[b300mussolini]

ok people here is how you do sneak attack at range.
first of all you need a way to get sneak attack at a range greater then the pitiful 30 ft, personally i like to use sniper goggles for this be cause it is a bam and done thing. a latter upgrade would be greater sniper goggles.

now that we have the ability to do sneak attack at range we need not be seen to keep our sneak attack. when sniping from hiding you take a -20 penalty to remain hidden after the first shot and cant make anymore attacks that get sneak attack after that. now you could take feats and other stuff to reduce that penalty which in the long run is very costly both feat and gold wise or there is plan B for those playing Pathfinder.

Plan B) a 1 level splash into oracle. You grab either the flame or wave mystery and take hunted as your curse. both the flame and the wave mystery have a revelation that lets you see through fog and a LV1 oracle can grab the spell obscuring mist and depending on whether or not you want to splash oracle more for spells and revelations or grab a ring of revelation you can get some pretty cool stuff +4 to AC or i am fire. either way look at them both before you decide. if you just want the ranged sneak attack i would recommend the flame mystery due to it letting you see through fog smoke and fire and eventually let you look out of any fire you can see very helpful ability.

so with the ability to see perfectly through smoke fog and flames you can now just set back with a bag of smoke bombs and say FU to that -20 to hide from sniping. so long as you stay inside your smoke cloud or fog bank you have total concealment which means you don't have to make hide check to stay hidden and can sneak attack all you like.

if someone does come into your cloud bank you have some nice lv 0 spell called ghost sound and mage hand to use on them to help you make a clean escape or just have fun overall.

after that it is all about getting off as many shots you can so go with the volley archer build. you just have to watch out for guys with scent and temorsense but if you sniping right then you should have no problem staying out of there range.

[TypoNinja]

ring of blinking+seeking property =)

Greater Blink lets you avoid the mischance on your end. Not sure if its a cheaper option or not being a higher level spell.

[Gavinfoxx]

ok people here is how you do sneak attack at range.

You do know this is a 3.5e thread, not a Pathfinder thread? They are, indeed, two different games, yea?

[Greenish]

There are several methods (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=186283) for making the target vulnerably to SA from range, though none of those help with the range requirement.


Telling Blow (PHBII) doesn't care about range or the target being flat-footed, but getting the crit range for it to be anywhere near reliable is tricky, doubly so for ranged weapons.

[Socratov]

It is probably mentioned in teh handbooks somehwere, but IIRC the only way to sneak attack from a distance greater then 30' is to use crossbows and take the crossbow sniper feat on a rogue.

[Treblain]

ok people here is how you do sneak attack at range.
first of all you need a way to get sneak attack at a range greater then the pitiful 30 ft, personally i like to use sniper goggles for this be cause it is a bam and done thing. a latter upgrade would be greater sniper goggles.

now that we have the ability to do sneak attack at range we need not be seen to keep our sneak attack. when sniping from hiding you take a -20 penalty to remain hidden after the first shot and cant make anymore attacks that get sneak attack after that. now you could take feats and other stuff to reduce that penalty which in the long run is very costly both feat and gold wise or there is plan B for those playing Pathfinder.

Incidentally, the Pathfinder rules on stealth and hiding don't actually give you the ability to sneak attack when you're sniping. Nowhere does it say you treat defenders as flat-footed or deny their Dex bonus to AC while hidden, unless you interpret hidden as equivalent to invisible. If I'm wrong about this, feel free to correct me, but I haven't been able to find it anywhere.

[Evard]

ok people here is how you do sneak attack at range.
first of all you need a way to get sneak attack at a range greater then the pitiful 30 ft, personally i like to use sniper goggles for this be cause it is a bam and done thing. a latter upgrade would be greater sniper goggles.

now that we have the ability to do sneak attack at range we need not be seen to keep our sneak attack. when sniping from hiding you take a -20 penalty to remain hidden after the first shot and cant make anymore attacks that get sneak attack after that. now you could take feats and other stuff to reduce that penalty which in the long run is very costly both feat and gold wise or there is plan B for those playing Pathfinder.

Plan B) a 1 level splash into oracle. You grab either the flame or wave mystery and take hunted as your curse. both the flame and the wave mystery have a revelation that lets you see through fog and a LV1 oracle can grab the spell obscuring mist and depending on whether or not you want to splash oracle more for spells and revelations or grab a ring of revelation you can get some pretty cool stuff +4 to AC or i am fire. either way look at them both before you decide. if you just want the ranged sneak attack i would recommend the flame mystery due to it letting you see through fog smoke and fire and eventually let you look out of any fire you can see very helpful ability.

so with the ability to see perfectly through smoke fog and flames you can now just set back with a bag of smoke bombs and say FU to that -20 to hide from sniping. so long as you stay inside your smoke cloud or fog bank you have total concealment which means you don't have to make hide check to stay hidden and can sneak attack all you like.

if someone does come into your cloud bank you have some nice lv 0 spell called ghost sound and mage hand to use on them to help you make a clean escape or just have fun overall.

after that it is all about getting off as many shots you can so go with the volley archer build. you just have to watch out for guys with scent and temorsense but if you sniping right then you should have no problem staying out of there range.

How about you take ranger and go bow (not two weapon that isn't strong enough) and refluff your hunter quarry to be your sneak attack?

Oh! We are in a 3.5 thread... Silly me.

[ericgrau]

Pixies make awesome ranged rogues, even with the LA. Every attack is a sneak attack due to always-on greater invisibility.

Otherwise it's a bit hard to pull off. In round 1 and the surprise round you get a bunch of sneak attacks against anyone who hasn't acted yet, because that makes them flat-footed. Past that you're a bit stuck unless an allied caster has greater invisibility, grease, or evard's black tentacles. Technically glitterdust too, but it's not as reliable and there's less need to hit a blind target when it works. Or if you have an allied grappler and improved precise shot. Or at higher levels you can get a ring of blinking. All of these deny the target dex bonus to AC and so allow sneak attacks.

[KillingAScarab]

I have not seen this listed, yet. If can you find some way for the rogue to use the spell, consider Leomund's tiny hut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/tinyHut.htm). It's not mobile, but it does grant total concealment. You get an opaque hemisphere you can sit comfortably in, even with a light source, yet attack things outside. It makes a decent sniper's nest, since the target cannot see the rogue. Being effectively invisible denies the target their Dexterity bonus, thus they are the victim of a sneak attack, within the range restrictions.

[TuggyNE]

I have not seen this listed, yet. If can you find some way for the rogue to use the spell, consider Leomund's tiny hut (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/tinyHut.htm). It's not mobile, but it does grant total concealment. You get an opaque hemisphere you can sit comfortably in, even with a light source, yet attack things outside. It makes a decent sniper's nest, since the target cannot see the rogue. Being effectively invisible denies the target their Dexterity bonus, thus they are the victim of a sneak attack, within the range restrictions.

How have I never seen that use before? That's very ingenious, and, on hindsight, quite obvious.

Of course, you are limited in that they can merely waltz in and whack at you, or move 35' away from the hut and be sneak-attack-free, but it makes a nice starting point.

[Darrin]

If you go by the DMG guidelines, an "at will" wondrous item of sniper's shot costs 4000 GP.

Wand chamber (100 GP) + wand of sniper's shot (750 GP) is even cheaper.

[only1doug]

Theres a Warlock dip trick that can work:

Dip one level of warlock and take the Darkness invocation
Take the Blend into Shadows feat (from Drow of the Underdark)
Have a good hide skill.
Have a method of seeing through Darkness (spell, item or a 2nd level of warlock for Devils sight)

Blend into shadows allows you to use 1 use of your darkness spell-like ability to hide as a swift action as long as there is an area of magical darkness within a certain range, As fortune would have it you can cast darkness at will so you can have lots of pebbles with darkness cast upon them in your pockets.

So take your full round action of attacks from hidden then re-hide as a free action with a almost HiPS level hide ability.

[Evard]

Theres a Warlock dip trick that can work:

Dip one level of warlock and take the Darkness invocation
Take the Blend into Shadows feat (from Drow of the Underdark)
Have a good hide skill.
Have a method of seeing through Darkness (spell, item or a 2nd level of warlock for Devils sight)

Blend into shadows allows you to use 1 use of your darkness spell-like ability to hide as a swift action as long as there is an area of magical darkness within a certain range, As fortune would have it you can cast darkness at will so you can have lots of pebbles with darkness cast upon them in your pockets.

So take your full round action of attacks from hidden then re-hide as a free action with a almost HiPS level hide ability.

That would make an excellant (but close tpk) encounter.

Party versus some rogue Warlock/Rogues :D

[Greenish]

If you go by the DMG guidelines, an "at will" wondrous item of sniper's shot costs 4000 GP.Sometimes I wonder if said guidelines would be less borked if they acknowledged the distinction between 1 round and 1 round/level durations. The former were obviously rare to non-existent at the time of the writing, so I'm not blaming them, but still.

[TuggyNE]

Sometimes I wonder if said guidelines would be less borked if they acknowledged the distinction between 1 round and 1 round/level durations. The former were obviously rare to non-existent at the time of the writing, so I'm not blaming them, but still.

Not a lot less, but it would help a bit.

[KillingAScarab]

How have I never seen that use before? That's very ingenious, and, on hindsight, quite obvious.

Of course, you are limited in that they can merely waltz in and whack at you, or move 35' away from the hut and be sneak-attack-free, but it makes a nice starting point.I should give credit where it is due; I found this idea on Cayzle's Wemic Site years ago (at the bottom of this article (http://www.cayzle.com/screeds/book011.html)). The 20' radius of the hemisphere could look quite out of place, depending upon surroundings, but then again, you get to choose the color of the hemisphere. It could also allow for multiple snipers, or for a single one to move around a little bit to try to stay within sneak attack range. A standard action casting time means it might be used in a battle, but I think terrain is once again a factor as to whether or not it will be the best option.

[TypoNinja]

If you go by the DMG guidelines, an "at will" wondrous item of sniper's shot costs 4000 GP.

Wand chamber (100 GP) + wand of sniper's shot (750 GP) is even cheaper.

I think you got the math wrong.


Use-activated or continuous Spell level × caster level × 2,000 gp

Gives us 2000, but.


If a continuous item has an effect based on a spell with a duration measured in rounds, multiply the cost by 4. If the duration of the spell is 1 minute/level, multiply the cost by 2, and if the duration is 10 minutes/level, multiply the cost by 1.5. If the spell has a 24-hour duration or greater, divide the cost in half.

Bold mine, 2k x 4 is 8000.

Double that again unless the item happens to occupy one of the standard magic item slot location. And +50% if it occupies a slot that doesn't make sense.