[PF] Shedding the Coffin

[Keneth]

Ok, so I'm making a vampire BBEG, and while other weaknesses are relatively easy to deal with within the confines of RAW, it always seems to come back to the damn coffin. Unlike a lich, a vampire has to actually physically travel back to its coffin when reduced to 0 hp, so you can't just toss it somewhere unreachable, it's gotta be close by. Plus you can't activate items or cast most spells while in gaseous form, so if you happen to carry your shrunken coffin with you, you can't just pop it out once you go poof. So how would an industrious vampire deal with this problem? Assume a level 20 sorcerer with nearly limitless resources.

And since we're on the topic, which coffin counts as "its coffin"? Can you change a coffin? Can you pick any ol' empty coffin as your own? There's no apparent rule that specifies which coffin is yours.

[Callin]

back in 2nd ed a friend of mine had a Vampire who had his coffin inside of a bottle with a permanent Mordenkainens Magnificent Mansion inside of it.

[Keneth]

How did that work, exactly? :smallamused:

I suppose a contingent teleport would resolve some of the distance issues. Or silent teleport so that it can't be dispelled. It's not very elegant though, and it leaves your coffin pretty exposed.

[Callin]

the bottle neck was the entrance to the mansion that was permanently inside of the bottle. He would mist form into it then reform and lounge or rest to regain spells.

[Keneth]

Yeah, but I'm guessing someone had to keep watch over the bottle. Otherwise it's not much different than a coffin, you can just break it and the vampire, coffin, and everything else gets expelled. It's a good way to keep the coffin portable, but not really a solution to anything else. Also, what happens if someone corks the bottle? Are you stuck inside? :smallbiggrin:

[avr]

For a variation on the "liches phylactery inside a golem" idea, you could build your coffin inside a golem. Portable and protected. Easiest for a small vampire of course.

[Matticussama]

Something that is extremely well hidden doesn't necessarily need to be well defended. If no one ever finds your coffin, then you've already won.

The best ways to do this usually involve the Gaseous Form ability. The bottle is one example. Another option is to have the Vampire create a deep underground tunnel (at least 130ft deep if not longer in case players try to argue), put their coffin at the bottom, then fill it with loosely packed dirt and gravel. Then build a dark, scary castle/mansion/whatever on top of it, with wooden floor boards. The gaseous form allows it to go through the cracks in the floor and, more importantly, the small spaces in between the loosely packed dirt and gravel.

Detect Magic (a) only has a range of 60ft and (b) cannot penetrate more than 3ft of dirt. Arcane Sight has a range of 120ft, but is also blocked by more than 3ft of dirt since the effects work the same as Detect Magic. Even if the players try to argue that it shouldn't be blocked by dirt, rock,etc, making it at least 130ft underground means it avoids Arcane Sight's range.

In order to get to the coffin, the players would have to level the entire area around the castle/mansion/whatever 130ft deep. Brute force isn't going to cut it; the players will have to investigate to overcome this, and actually think their way through the problem rather than just trying to magic their way out of it with a single spell. If the players can actually solve the puzzle of finding the coffin and manage to get to it before the Vampire is healed to full by its Fast Healing 5 ability (or, if it is smart, have some sort of negative energy spell waiting when it gets in its coffin) then the players deserve the pleasure of giving the Vamp its final death.

[KillingAScarab]

Something that is extremely well hidden doesn't necessarily need to be well defended. If no one ever finds your coffin, then you've already won.This seems to indicate a different perspective; one where the DM is competing against the players to win the game.

Kenneth, how are you planning to use this vampire?

[Matticussama]

"You" in this case meaning the NPC, not a DM v.s PC mentality. The NPC should always prepare their bases, defenses, etc in order to win against any outside invaders. Leaving a blatantly obvious weakness just for the PCs to exploit doesn't make sense, and ruins the feeling of Verisimilitude within the world, especially since the OP said to "Assume a level 20 sorcerer with nearly limitless resources."

In my experience PCs tend to enjoy their accomplishments much more when they out think the strong precautions of a well-prepared enemy, more-so than just exploiting the obvious weak spot given because of plot (ex: the Death Star's reactor core weak spot).

[KillingAScarab]

"You" in this case meaning the NPC, not a DM v.s PC mentality.Ah, I misinterpreted your intent, then.

[Erik Vale]

You could carry it around in a bag of holding thats slightly open, overlaid with illusions that make others think it's a normal bag that contains a few coins...
Possibly put it in a portable hole, put a adamantium grat such that it blocks the hole afterwards, and put the portable hole on a coin or some such that you make certain you don't give away.

Or just contingency teleport, with it being: On death, teleport to coffin stashed in my demiplane.

[Keneth]

We're talking a CR 25+ encounter here. I don't think players would have much trouble finding a coffin at that level with all their divinatory capabilities, even if I buried it a mile deep. I would put it on a demiplane if I thought it made any difference, but a wish or something similar would likely reveal its location. I guess mage's private sanctum would help conceal it, and proper construction would help in making it durable enough to survive a direct assault, but I don't want to use too much DM fiat, otherwise I might as well just handwave the whole weakness away.

How does hiding a phylactery or coffin inside of a golem help? I mean, it's a secondary layer of protection, but is there any other benefit to that?

Carrying the coffin on me would be ideal, but your items all get transformed into gaseous form with you when you hit 0 hp, so shrinking it, putting it in a bag of holding, stashing it in a secret chest, etc. wouldn't do you any good. This is still the preferred option though, it might be cool to figure out a way around the limitations.

I'm also wondering how far you can stretch the definition of "coffin". It doesn't say it has to fit you, or what shape it has to be, or what material it can be made of, or how it's supposed to be constructed. What's to stop someone from saying, "this castle is my coffin"?

Btw, what happens to a vampire in gaseous form when it enters an antimagic field? Is it done for? A lifeless corpse until its time runs out? :smallbiggrin:

[KillingAScarab]

Btw, what happens to a vampire in gaseous form when it enters an antimagic field? Is it done for? A lifeless corpse until its time runs out? :smallbiggrin:Unless there's another way to give it at least 1 hit point, so it can move around and kickstart its fast healing (which is extraordinary), that's how I read it.

[avr]

How does hiding a phylactery or coffin inside of a golem help? I mean, it's a secondary layer of protection, but is there any other benefit to that?
It's mobile for one thing so you don't have to carry it and immune to many spells so whatever killed you is less likely to have killed it also. They are also immune to many other effects so may be able to retreat somewhere (with your BBEG vampire and the coffin) that will delay pursuit a round or two while the players make themselves immune to poison/able to breathe water/whatever.

[Keneth]

Yeah, I figured as much, but it would probably have to be something on par with a Quantium golem to provide any real challenge. I guess that's manageable.

I've actually been thinking about this for a while, but can a vampire at 0 hp be healed and then assume its normal form again without having to return to its coffin? Since gaseous form doesn't stop continuously active items from functioning, would a ring of regeneration or a similar item just heal it back to 1 hp and reactivate its fast healing?

[Fouredged Sword]

You can also make your coffin itself a fortress that is hard to break into.

Ok, you want to make your coffin a spiked double weapon. Call it an improvised double club / heavy shield with shield spikes. Have it latch from the inside (or not even open really, it if fine as a singe solid box) and have a small hole you can enter while misted. Store a pair of anklets of translocation inside to hop out when needed. A scroll of greater teleport or planshift is also a good backup item for picking up the whole coffin and porting off.

Now make the whole thing out of riverine. Now the only way to break it is with disintegrate.

Then you enchant it with spellperrying on each "weapon" with the spells being dispel magic, greater dispel magic, and disintegrate. False aura it to look normal magic wise and illusion it to look like adimantium. They will waste resources just trying to break the dang thing before they realize that something is hinky.

This means that unless they come packing with disintegrate AND disjunction they are waiting 8 hours minimum to take you down.

Remember, you are jut trying to delay them long enough to port out. That means you get 8 hours if you can make the only solution magic and the wizard lacks the right spell, in this case a 9th level spell. Wish only mimics up to 8th level spells, so they have to have that particular one too.

[Keneth]

This is a Pathfinder discussion, so while I am the DM, I'm not really interested in 3.5 methods of making the coffin indestructible. Plus, I don't really see pressurized water in a force field as being a good choice for a vampire coffin. I'd sooner make it out of horacalcum, so that it sped up time inside it, allowing me to recuperate "faster". :smallsmile: