[PF] Party with High AC

[ArcanistSupreme]

I'm currently DMing for a 3rd level party in which one of the characters dipped 2 levels into Armiger (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/armiger), grabbing the citadel special ability, which grants all adjacent allies hard cover. The party wizard has a habit of enlarging him, and when combined with a reach weapon, he is quite a good tank.

Now, I don't want to rain on this guys parade and completely shut down his character, but what ways are there to occasionally scare the party and get around this? I can only catch the party flat-footed so many times and throw so many will saves at them before it gets old. Keeping in mind that this is a rather combat-driven campaign, what are a handful of things I can mix in to shake things up and challenge the party?

Wish list:

Low-level methods of boosting to-hit to reliably hit ~18 AC
Classes/feats/combat styles that provide options other than targeting AC
Situations/terrain that could force interesting movement choices/groupings other than "the wizard stands by the Armiger"
Spells that do any of the above

[Logic]

Off the top of my head: magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, and true strike are good spells to start. For the last, only have a foe use it if he has a reason to research the party's tactics and abilities.

[Failed Phantasm]

Entangle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/entangle), followed by a dispel on Enlarge Person if possible. Reflex seems like a good save to target in this case.

[Sidmen]

A level 1 Barbarian with a STR of 20 (easily done with anything with a STR bonus) that is raging with a masterwork weapon and the Weapon Focus feat will have a short-term attack bonus of +10, which can hit an AC of 18 - 60% of the time. Drop this down to a Strength of merely 16 (more "fair" for minions) and they've got a +8; which is a 50% chance of hitting.

This is a CL1 opponent, mind you.

Send them up against a small horde of rampaging Orc Berserkers...

[nobodez]

Sniper Rogue (or with the goggles from the APG) with wand of Acid Arrow.

Also, don't allow 3rd party classes.

Oh, and remember, adjacent is not the same as within reach.

Improved Precise Shot makes the soft cover useless as well.

Also, remember that Soft Cover doesn't grant Reflex bonuses (as others have said).

[Anderlith]

Without having to resort to using magic or shanannigans.

Grapple checks. A high armor based AC is useless against touch AC grapples.

Pit him against something that is a natural grappler, something big with four legs. or something that can really scare him like a croc that can drag him under. Add them both together & make it a Dire Croc.

I know it works because I had a character with a really high AC & I died from being grappled & swallowed by a tendiculous.

[Keneth]

Armigers are annoying and, like most 3rd party classes, imbalanced in some aspects. But they're really only good at one thing, and that's tanking against standard attacks.

Disabling them also disables their abilities, so color sprays and humble stirges can quickly resolve the situation at low levels. As do simple alchemical creations, like alchemist's fires and tanglefoot bags, that can quickly stack up and end the battle. You can also use battlefield control to force them to move. Obscuring fog, stinking cloud, black tentacles, ash storm, etc. are all good candidates.

[ArcanistSupreme]

Just realized that I typed soft cover in the OP. I meant hard cover.


Off the top of my head: magic missile, ray of enfeeblement, and true strike are good spells to start. For the last, only have a foe use it if he has a reason to research the party's tactics and abilities.

Nice. Cover does add to touch AC against ranged attacks, but it's still easier to deal with.


Entangle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/entangle), followed by a dispel on Enlarge Person if possible. Reflex seems like a good save to target in this case.

Entangle is good, but the hard cover (which I didn't mention) does add to reflex saves. I should still be able to get at least a couple of them. The problem with dispel is that reduce person targets Fort and dispel magic is a 3rd level spell.


A level 1 Barbarian with a STR of 20 (easily done with anything with a STR bonus) that is raging with a masterwork weapon and the Weapon Focus feat will have a short-term attack bonus of +10, which can hit an AC of 18 - 60% of the time. Drop this down to a Strength of merely 16 (more "fair" for minions) and they've got a +8; which is a 50% chance of hitting.

This is a CL1 opponent, mind you.

Send them up against a small horde of rampaging Orc Berserkers...

Now this is juicy...


Sniper Rogue (or with the goggles from the APG) with wand of Acid Arrow.

This will do nicely.


Also, don't allow 3rd party classes.

It's allowed in my game because it's really not that powerful. I'm not going to derail this thread talking about the merits of third party classes, though.


Oh, and remember, adjacent is not the same as within reach.

Improved Precise Shot makes the soft cover useless as well.

Also, remember that Soft Cover doesn't grant Reflex bonuses (as others have said).

I'm aware. This ain't my first rodeo :smallwink:


Without having to resort to using magic or shanannigans.

Grapple checks. A high armor based AC is useless against touch AC grapples.

Pit him against something that is a natural grappler, something big with four legs. or something that can really scare him like a croc that can drag him under. Add them both together & make it a Dire Croc.

The problem is the darned enlarge person, which makes it kinda hard to grapple him, either. Not that I have to target him...


Disabling them also disables their abilities, so color sprays and humble stirges can quickly resolve the situation at low levels. As do simple alchemical creations, like alchemist's fires and tanglefoot bags, that can quickly stack up and end the battle. You can also use battlefield control to force them to move. Obscuring fog, stinking cloud, black tentacles, ash storm, etc. are all good candidates.

I think I figured out part of my problem; I haven't been targeting the tank, assuming he could shrug off whatever I could throw at him. And while cover gives the others benefits against ranged touch attacks, he doesn't get those benefits.

The problem with the spells is that obscuring mist is centered on the caster (and while a mage that charges the party just to cast this spell is hilarious, it's not really practical {unless it's a magus? hmmm...}) and the other spells are all 3rd and 4th level spells.

[Rhynn]

Circumstances and situations where sticking close together isn't feasible, or where being Large makes things harder (being forced to squeeze into small spaces, etc.). Area-effect spells/effects with no Reflex save / where cover is useless.

[Keneth]

Just realized that I typed soft cover in the OP. I meant hard cover.

There's not much difference between hard cover and soft cover, aside from the fact hard cover gives a bonus to Reflex saves. I do hope you're not giving them improved cover, because that's a different beast altogether.


The problem with the spells is that obscuring mist is centered on the caster (and while a mage that charges the party just to cast this spell is hilarious, it's not really practical {unless it's a magus? hmmm...}) and the other spells are all 3rd and 4th level spells.

Then use smokesticks or any number of other CC spells that accomplish the same thing. It was just an example. :smallsmile:

[ArcanistSupreme]

Circumstances and situations where sticking close together isn't feasible, or where being Large makes things harder (being forced to squeeze into small spaces, etc.). Area-effect spells/effects with no Reflex save / where cover is useless.

The circumstance was something I was toying with, and I'll be mixing it in with the other options. The enlarge thing is easy to prevent occasionally, but I'm having trouble coming up with situations that preclude the wizard from standing by the armiger, though.


There's not much difference between hard cover and soft cover, aside from the fact hard cover gives a bonus to Reflex saves. I do hope you're not giving them improved cover, because that's a different beast altogether. Then use smokesticks or any number of other CC spells that accomplish the same thing. It was just an example. :smallsmile:

Yeah, I know about cover differences. I was just bringing it up because someone else had mentioned it. And it does make it slightly harder to use reflex-targeting spells. Smokesticks are good; what are some good, low-level BFC spells that would force them to move? Grease is okay, but the armiger mostly just stands there, so if he succeeds on the initial save it's little more than an inconvenience.

[ericgrau]

Spells in general and creatures with save-inducing special abilities should be nice. In Pathfinder Society modules swarms are popular for some reason so everyone brings alchemical weapons to them. Make sure your players are likewise aware though.

Attackers could set up flanks, use mounts (+1 to hit medium foes), weapon focus, rage. Maybe aid another after 2 rounds of missing.

[Rhynn]

The circumstance was something I was toying with, and I'll be mixing it in with the other options. The enlarge thing is easy to prevent occasionally, but I'm having trouble coming up with situations that preclude the wizard from standing by the armiger, though.

Well, targeting the armiger with AoE damage should do it; the wizard's still going to be taking half damage if he succeeds at those Reflex saves, and probably has less than half the armiger's hit points. It's not even really a negating tactic - the wizard is intentionally placing himself in harm's way by being near the tank.

[HurinTheCursed]

You could set up a few ambushes in places where they wouldn't have their battle formation (bridge), be forced to break it to get to the menace (a high point).
A lesser shadow or an allip with some turn undead-meatshield is also challenging without targeting AC.

[HalfQuart]

I know nothing about PF, but at least in 3.5 you can use Aid Another to get +2 to hit, and it stacks with itself, so you can just pile on a whole mess of small or tiny opponents that don't actually try to damage anything, but just aid some other nastier enemies. And it's nice to throw that Fighter who took Great Cleave a bone once in awhile. ;-)

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Kobolds. Sure, they're CR 1/4 and their attack isn't that hot. But arm them with masterwork bows and give them WF: shortbow and they attack at +5 for 1d6 damage.

That's bad, isn't it? Until you realize that four kobolds make CR 1 (very easy fight), eight kobolds make CR 3 (standard fight), sixteen kobolds make CR 5 (challenging fight) and thirty-two kobolds make CR 7 (very hard fight) against the standard lvl 3 party.
With that kind of numbers and +5 attack, each subgroup of 4 kobolds can be expected to deal 1d6 damage every round against AC 18-20. So with sixteen of them, that's 4d6 guaranteed against the party's wizard, 8d6 for thirty-two.
Also, the party can't take them out too fast. No matter how powerful a lvl 3 character is, against a loose formation of kobolds he's only going to kill them one at a time.


Last but not least, the kobolds have ranged weapons whereas the party relies on a melee formation. That means the kobolds will get at least a couple of attacks against the party before they close to melee range. Now, add some difficult terrain like a forest or mountains and that 60 ft range increment on the bows needs at least 2 rounds to cross... for each increment. (you can fire ranged weapons up to 10 increments away) :smallamused:

[Hendel]

Have you thought about swarms?