How the heck will the Order get out of this one? - Discussion

[Xenrei]

Lets see what we have here so far. They start the quest with a full party
:haley::elan::roy::durkon::belkar::vaarsuvius:
and went inside the temple to look for Girard. Or whomever. V gets trapped and overwhelmed with regret, we now only have
:haley::elan::roy::durkon::belkar:
Enter the LG. They have a big fight and Durkon casts Holy Word. Sabine is dispelled, everyone is deafened (save Tarquin) and Kilkil is immobilized. The LG flees and the Order proceeds without V. Belkar chases a big dog and gets lost. Now we've got
:haley::elan::roy::durkon:
Belkar bumps into Snake Dude and almost gets vamped, but faithful Durkon comes to the rescue! And gets killed. :smallfrown: (May he rest in peace [eventually] ) Malack vamps him and meets up with the remainder of the LG, and Belkar finds his way back to the others. Now there's only
:haley::elan::roy::belkar:
So now what? How can the Order possibly come out unscathed? :smallconfused: They just lost their most powerful members and are all damaged from the battle :smalleek: (Except Elan).

I thought of some possible contributing factors.

We know from this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html) that Elan can now not only cast illusions (Which may actually be very helpful) but he can now cast Neutralize Poison, Greater Dispel Magic, Mass Cure Light Wounds and swapped out a spell for Cure Critical Wounds. Or he intended to, at least.

This comic also gives us an idea of what level the heroes may be. At Bard level 13th the player gets 5th level spells and another 4th. We now know that Elan currently is a level 13 bard, plus the 2 or 3 levels in Dashing Swordsman, so he is 15 or 16th level.

From that we know that he can only cast 5th level spells 0 times, and 4th level spells twice, which doesn't make sense, seeing as though he was able to cast Mass CLW as soon as he leveled up, but since this is only loosely based on the 3.5 rules, The Giant may decide to ignore that. Another possibility is that Elan is a bit higher level than we figured.

We also know that V has cast hardly any spells and could meet up with the Order, or (gods forbid) get killed off by someone else. V is quite strong in the ways of the [S]force arcane.

Anyway, I've said too much already. Go ahead and post YOUR ideas! As of now, this topic is open for discussion here! :biggrin:

[Kish]

From that we know that he can only cast 5th level spells 0 times, and 4th level spells twice, [see the PHB and the Bard's Spells Per Day table] which doesn't make sense, seeing as though he was able to cast Mass CLW as soon as he leveled up, but since this is only loosely based on the 3.5 rules, The Giant may decide to ignore that.

- means you can't cast any spells of that level. 0 means you can cast your bonus spells from your casting stat. A 13th-level bard wouldn't have a fifth-level spell known if that level went with - fifth-level spells per day.

Elan has a sky-high Charisma.

[Sylian]

Technically, Belkar is still part of the party, though he likely will have to be really careful considering his current Con-score. Based on what Malack said about not draining Belkar's last drop, I would estimate that Belkar has 1 Con left, or maybe even 2-4. Still, that should leave him with very little hp left for any upcoming battle. Also, any Constitution damage would kill him instantly, so if Malack has another Poison spell prepared, Belkar is likely doomed.

That being said, I doubt Belkar will die from a stray Poison. My point is that Belkar is unlikely to contribute all that much in combat for a while, unless he's willing to take a huge risk.

[Xenrei]

Technically, Belkar is still part of the party
I just noticed my mistake there, fixed it so Belkar is there too.


That being said, I doubt Belkar will die from a stray Poison. My point is that Belkar is unlikely to contribute all that much in combat for a while, unless he's willing to take a huge risk.

I agree. I think that although Belkar has a very low Wisdom score, he would be smart enough to stay out of combat. He may be a homicidal and heartless little devil, but he cares about both his and Mr. Scruffy's life.

[137beth]

Because there are two more books and so they are virtually guaranteed to survive this one:smallbiggrin:

[isoriveil]

Actually, now I'm confident that OotS will at the very least beat LG, though it is still a question as to what to do with TE. I mean, 4 casters (one of which should probably be out of spells after fiend summon, and another is, well, Nale) in a closed space against fighter with better than average will saves (probably won't get dominated) and a special anti-spellcaster technique? What could possibly go wrong?

[Chantelune]

And V might come back to the group soon, I get the feeling that Quarr poping to her is not just to put salt on her wounds. :smalltongue:

[skim172]

They do have one advantage - they are closer to the Gate than any of their opponents. How to leverage that into a victory .... I dunno.

All I can think is if they go all "scorched earth" and preemptively destroy the Gate before their enemies get there.

[Xenrei]

They do have one advantage - they are closer to the Gate than any of their opponents. How to leverage that into a victory .... I dunno.

All I can think is if they go all "scorched earth" and preemptively destroy the Gate before their enemies get there.

I suppose they could destroy the gate, but the question remains: would they be willing to risk it? There are two out of five gates left, and if they are both destroyed the Snarl could just escape by itself. Xykon and Redcloak would not be able to control it, but nobody else would either....

[Xenrei]

Also, I'm not sure the Order has the time, nor the resources to destroy the gate before TE gets there.

[zimmerwald1915]

And V might come back to the group soon, I get the feeling that Quarr poping to her is not just to put salt on her wounds. :smalltongue:
Don't count on it. Vaarsuvius isn't allowed to solve problems.

Isoriveil is onto something when he brings up Roy's Horace-derived anti-spellcaster feat (which he might even have learned if he managed to level to 14). Roy has some other resources he can bring to the table as well, like whatever Roy's Archon is doing in the Upper Planes. Eugene might also manifest now that Xykon's left Azure City, and Roy might be able to manipulate him into using his illsuions to augment the defenses.

There are other wild cards in pay besides Team Evil as well. Ganjii and Enor might show up, as might Ian and Geoff. Either duo would be limited help, especially if Tarquin's also called reinforcements (either his army or his old party).

[Silverionmox]

IMO Quarr is going to taunt V into smoking Z - which will succeed, finally, if necessary with a little help from his friends (downstairs).

That leaves Malack (with Durkon) and Nale. We all know what's going to happen when you leave these two alone in a room.

When Malack returns without Nale, it will likely strain a long-standing alliance, with the rest of the old party right there to pick sides and settle outstanding debts... and potentially turn their three empires against each other.

Unnecessary conflict all over, the gentlemen downstairs have truly made a good investment.

[Kish]

Much as I would like to see that...

...and much as I hate to say this...

...I don't think Tarquin's that dumb. He's not going to play that major a role in arranging Nale's death and then flip out because Nale died.

[sam79]

To answer the main question of the thread...

I have no idea.

I don't think socrched earth is a good option, because the Bad Guys can get to the next and final Gate quicker and in better shape than the Good Guys. But there may not be better options; at least the last Gate is more likely to have intact defences.

Hoping Team Evil shows up, and they and Linear Guild (now with Extra Fiends!) duke it out until no-one's left alive looks like the optimum strategy. If you cound 'hiding until everyone else is dead' a strategy.

[Olinser]

They do have one advantage - they are closer to the Gate than any of their opponents. How to leverage that into a victory .... I dunno.

All I can think is if they go all "scorched earth" and preemptively destroy the Gate before their enemies get there.

We know nothing of the sort.

Until the Gate appears on-panel we have no idea where it may or may not be.

Hell, after the smoke settles on this conflict I half expect a cutaway panel to Xykon and Redcloak hanging out at the Gate idly wondering why nobody is around.

[Jay R]

Malack doesn't want to kill the Order. He released Belkar and receommended that he take his cat and his allies away.

Malack does want to kill Nale.

I'm not convinced the current odds are all that bad.

[Ave]

Malack doesn't want to kill the Order. He released Belkar and receommended that he take his cat and his allies away.

Malack does want to kill Nale.

I'm not convinced the current odds are all that bad.

Malack, Durkon, his fiend vs Nale, Z, his fiend.

[ThePhantasm]

I wonder if Belkar will heroically die here so that the rest of the Order can escape. It would be really heartbreaking and tense for the Order to have to make their way to the next gate with two of their teammates down.

[Silverionmox]

Much as I would like to see that...

...and much as I hate to say this...

...I don't think Tarquin's that dumb. He's not going to play that major a role in arranging Nale's death and then flip out because Nale died.

Oh, if he's going to butt heads with Malack it's not because M offed Nale; that was promised already. It would be because Malack did so before Tarquin allowed him to.

[Xenrei]

Whatever happens, I'm sure that The Giant will have something really tense and exciting planned for the next while. :smallamused:

[dtilque]

We know from this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0647.html) that Elan can now not only cast illusions (Which may actually be very helpful) but he can now cast Neutralize Poison, Greater Dispel Magic, Mass Cure Light Wounds and swapped out a spell for Cure Critical Wounds. Or he intended to, at least.

This comic also gives us an idea of what level the heroes may be. At Bard level 13th the player gets 5th level spells and another 4th. We now know that Elan currently is a level 13 bard, plus the 2 or 3 levels in Dashing Swordsman, so he is 15 or 16th level.

From that we know that he can only cast 5th level spells 0 times, and 4th level spells twice, [see the PHB and the Bard's Spells Per Day table] which doesn't make sense, seeing as though he was able to cast Mass CLW as soon as he leveled up, but since this is only loosely based on the 3.5 rules, The Giant may decide to ignore that. Another possibility is that Elan is a bit higher level than we figured.

The reason he could cast it is that he has a high charisma, which gives him a bonus spell according to this table (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilityScores). At the time he had a charisma of at least 20, but he's subsequently bought a belt of charisma, futher boosting his score. If his charisma is now at least 28, he gets two bonus 5th level spells.

The Order has been in at least three successful fights since Elan achieved 13th level. That may or may not have given him enough XP to level up to 14th level Bard. If it has, then he would be able to do the swap for CCW that he mentions (it has to be done at level 14 or else wait until level 17). He also would get an additional 5th level spell per day as well as learn a third 5th level spell. So we'll know he's leveled up if he ever casts CCW or a 5th level spell other than MCLW or GDM.

[Sunken Valley]

They'll all die. They'll all die after blowing up the gate. Except for Elan who will be taken prisoner by Nale. And V who died beforehand by being killed by Belkar whilst under influence.

Then Roy, Haley, V and Belkar will meet the scribble and learn the true history of the gates. Meanwhile, Elan will redeem Durkon and defeat Tarquin with his super plan.

[Deepbluediver]

It seems like a lot of posters try and apply the tier chart and their mastery of op-fu to the comic, when its been proven time and again that the CHARACTERS are not min-maxed, do not employ optimal strategies, and frequently prefer the dramatic over the effective.

Right now the OotS has a big lead on Nale & Co, and despite having plenty of casters, Nale's party doesn't have ANYONE of the rogue-ish persuasion to get them through a temple full of traps.

I don't think that this is the end of the story, because if nothing else there is one more gate out there. But I assume that THIS gate will be rendered inopperable in a suitablely exciting and unexpected method, just like every gate before it.

[Ashiver]

Nale's spellcaster party isn't at full spells by a long shot at least. They have vampires, but Roy has a sword that wrecks undead. Roy also presumably has a spellcaster interrupt, and if he's really lucky it can cleave. Haley can get lucky freezes with her bow. I would say that both parties have the possibility to do a whole lot of damage to one another. The Order will presumably have the initiative again as well. Malack won't risk Durkon before he has a coffin, so if he takes much damage Malack may very well pull out of the battle completely. Nale may not have another dimension door to retreat either, so things could be very interesting.

[Magesmiley]

My personal opinion is that TE will show up and we'll have a 3-way fight going.

[Jay R]

I didn't predict Malack would appear.
I didn't predict Malack was a vampire.
I didn't predict that Durkon would show up.
I didn't predict that Belkar would survive meeting a vampire.
I didn't predict that Durkon would become a vampire.

Conclusion: I will not predict what will happen in the next battle.

And neither will anyone else.

Sit back and enjoy the view.

[Shivore]

I didn't predict Malack would appear.
I didn't predict Malack was a vampire.
I didn't predict that Durkon would show up.
I didn't predict that Durkon would become a vampire.

Conclusion: I will not predict what will happen in the next battle, but I sure will enjoy speculating.

[Smolder]

They still have Nale's Suggestion to deal with and we know a bit more about their will saves. Also, if Nale were smarter than I think he is, he'd be Invisible for most of the fight.

I guess they could try a rope-a-dope. Somehow get the LG to waste all their good spells while the Order evades or takes cover.

I'm sure Haley's archery could take out Z, with a good sneak attack and rapid fire. Interestingly, Durkula could use his shield to block her arrows and could even tank for the LG once their summoned fiends have been defeated.

[y2kyle89]

Does V have more Domination spells? That might help...

[Dr.Epic]

Deus ex machina disguised as a joke.:smallwink:

[bunyan1446]

I think they should survive, all it would take is for the IFCC to use some of Vs time and they could mop up the Linear Guild or just teleport everyone away to the next gate and destroy this one. They can't use V if he's dead and he's unlikely to go to the other gate if the rest of the order is killed so it's in their best interests for them to survive, it's unlikely to actually be the solution though in my opinion.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Are we sure that the IFCC "collecting" V's debt means another soul splice?

[JavaScribe]

Are we sure that the IFCC "collecting" V's debt means another soul splice?
Technically no, but the theory that the IFCC can forcibly soul splice and take control of V before he actually dies is generally treated as fact on the forums.

[Antipode]

If I was Elan, I'd be Disguise Selfing as Girard Draketooth, relying on Durkon's familiarity with his appearance (I think he's seen depictions of him, and Nale might have as well depending on whether Shojo's runthrough broke the fourth wall sufficiently to show him the little crayon drawings) to lend credence to whatever Major Images I create of summoning some kind of incredibly powerful creature or casting spells or whatnot - maybe a nice Greater Dispel Magic on Z to lend credence to the theory. I doubt Elan'll think about it hard enough to do that, though, and it'd be risky as heck to put him in an acting spot.

[Olinser]

Technically no, but the theory that the IFCC can forcibly soul splice and take control of V before he actually dies is generally treated as fact on the forums.

While it is not necessarily ABSOLUTE fact, it is extremely likely. It simply requires resources that the fiends have already been shown to possess, and a process they are already capable of performing.

Although if it happens, since each fiend has individual time, they would probably only be able to splice one soul each time (the one from their domain).

[rodneyAnonymous]

While it is not necessarily ABSOLUTE fact, it is extremely likely. It simply requires resources that the fiends have already been shown to possess, and a process they are already capable of performing.

Although if it happens, since each fiend has individual time, they would probably only be able to splice one soul each time (the one from their domain).

If they can attach an epic caster, why V specifically, and not any ol' wizard?

I think it will be something more sinister, and it won't be obvious to the order that V is possessed. The soul splice effect is too obvious.

[Antipode]

While it is not necessarily ABSOLUTE fact, it is extremely likely. It simply requires resources that the fiends have already been shown to possess, and a process they are already capable of performing.

Although if it happens, since each fiend has individual time, they would probably only be able to splice one soul each time (the one from their domain).

I'm not so sure about that. While they do only have individual time in possession of the soul, nothing's really stopping them from pooling their resources in each of those time slots, unless there's some kind of barrier preventing different domains from going together (except for that one time). Why's it matter who's got control of his soul when they're all on the same playing field, aye?

EDIT: Am agreeing someone with Rodney, though; soul splicing could conceivably happen again, but I doubt it'd be more than once. They basically have three different things they could do with Vaarsuvius at three different times; they could easily recycle it once, have him perform some kind of act without necessitating it (basically being their spy) another, and do something different a third time.

[rodneyAnonymous]

Given the choice between something we've already seen three more times, and up to three new things nobody is expecting, I think the latter is more likely. Why restrict it so much? Expect the unexpected.

[dtilque]

Right now the OotS has a big lead on Nale & Co, and despite having plenty of casters, Nale's party doesn't have ANYONE of the rogue-ish persuasion to get them through a temple full of traps.

They'll probably employ the "dominated kobold (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0840.html)" method of trap finding, provided they can talk their two new fiends into leading the way. If not, then perhaps Malack can be persuaded to raise some more mummies, although of course he won't like that.


I don't think that this is the end of the story, because if nothing else there is one more gate out there. But I assume that THIS gate will be rendered inopperable in a suitablely exciting and unexpected method, just like every gate before it.

I figure all the gates, including Kraagor's, will eventually be destroyed in, as you say, an exciting and unexpected manner. I also figure the gods actually want the gates destroyed, which is why they've (very indirectly) sent a party of incompetents out to defend them. However, this is getting way beyond the scope of this thread. Start a new thread if you want to discuss this.

[Olinser]

If they can attach an epic caster, why V specifically, and not any ol' wizard?

I think it will be something more sinister, and it won't be obvious to the order that V is possessed. The soul splice effect is too obvious.

Uh, because they already own a slice of V's soul, and there are no other casters in the vicinity that would deal with them? They've already stated that they can only intervene directly in the world when making a deal - and V had to request that one. The likelihood that a willing caster is going to ask for their help at the right moment is almost nil.

As for it being obvious... they've only got a few minutes each. They don't really have a lot of time for subtlety (especially the one with only about 3 minutes).

[Deepbluediver]

They'll probably employ the "dominated kobold (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0840.html)" method of trap finding, provided they can talk their two new fiends into leading the way. If not, then perhaps Malack can be persuaded to raise some more mummies, although of course he won't like that.

Hmm, yeah, Malack may have unlimited uses of his Vampiric Dominate, but they may run short of useful pawns to control. Assuming Nale took his time, he could probably get through most of the temple with relatively few losses of mummies, if they took the time to fish them out of traps and heal them with negative energy.
But that doesn't really seem like Nale's style.



I figure all the gates, including Kraagor's, will eventually be destroyed in, as you say, an exciting and unexpected manner. I also figure the gods actually want the gates destroyed, which is why they've (very indirectly) sent a party of incompetents out to defend them. However, this is getting way beyond the scope of this thread. Start a new thread if you want to discuss this.

Thread derailment, whats that? :smallbiggrin:
I'm fully on board with "the gods are lying to you" theory, for one or more of the parties in question. My money is more on the Dark One and Redcloak, but any particular diety is a candidate from simple misdirection to outright falsehood.

But that line of thought is nearly entirely speculative, so IMO I don't know how much there is to discuss...

[rodneyAnonymous]

Uh, because they already own a slice of V's soul....

I meant in the first place, not now.

[Ghosty]

Dtilque's hypothesis is an interesting one. Like Deepbluediver wrote, it calls for so much speculation, I don't know how to go about answering it.

My thoughts on how the Order will get out of this are as follows.

TL;DR: This Gate gets destroyed; Xykon either goes up with it or ends up in the World in the Rift. I think Belkar might blow up the Gate.

I start by thinking about Xykon. Either X will triumph at this Gate, in which case the Order has only as much time to get their stuff together, as the Ritual takes to complete. Or, X loses. But if he loses, since he has Greater Teleport, and (so far as we know) the near-exact location of Kraagor's Gate, how could he not beat the Order to it? Since I don't think that will happen, he therefore has to lose in such a way as to allow the Order enough time to get to the Dwarven Homelands ahead of him.

He could be sent through the Snarl to the world in the rift. O-Chul thinks X doesn't have Plane Shift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0670.html). Gate or Astral Projection aren't on the list either, but X is getting to the Astral Plane and back somehow. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0833.html) Would any of those spells even work for getting back from the world in the rift though? So that could work.

But I think he gets obliterated again and hilarity will ensue when he starts materializing next to RedCloak, instead of in his astral death fortress. Why else set up the duplicate phylactery as well as RC keeping the original one? As to how he gets obliterated, I think it happens in one of two ways. We know that Girard knows how to blow stuff up real good (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0695.html); it's easily within his character to rig the Gate with a self-destruct.

Alternately, and the one I favor, Malack has an awfully-impressive staff, with an equally awful personality, Further, what more character development do we really want to see from this guy? Don't we pretty much know everything we want to know about the guy? (Other than if he's a relative of the Draketooth clan or not.) He's one of the closest things to a Nazi I've seen in fantasy literature. Plus, killing him frees Durkfuratu from control, which will be really interesting to see how the Giant handles intelligent undead with opposite alignment to that of the source entity. He could go a bunch of ways with it, and I'm eager to see what he does.

Finally, we know that Belkar is going to die soon, and is currently weak as a kitten. With no way for the Order to Restore him. (Why Haley doesn't have Restoration scrolls---or Magic Circle against Evil, for that matter---in one of her Bags of Holding, I've no idea. She has a high enough UMD to use one, right?) Where was I? So, why not have Belkar, seeing that the Gate's going to end up in either Tarquin's or Xykon's hands, deny them the victory by breaking Malack's staff next to the Gate? (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Staff_of_the_Magi) This requires Malack being killed beforehand---unless he leaves it leaning against the wall (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html) again---which I think is well within the capabilities of Xykon & Co. Maybe B'll get plane shifted to the Astral Plane, where one doesn't have to breathe?

Whatever happens, I'm sure of two things: I'll be surprised by what the Giant comes up with, and I'll be following the story obsessively.

[EmperorSarda]

Xykon shows up, Linear Guild craps its pants and joins the Order of the Stick. The gate explodes.

[Amphiox]

The Order's best strategy is probably to find the gate first and then rig it's self-destruction into a trap and lure the LG into it. (IIRC, they don't know TE is coming.)

Beyond that, they're probably going to need outside interference of some sort or another. Possibilities that come to mind to me:

1) Internal dissent among the bad guys leads to them fighting it out amongst themselves while the Order flees. This could range from anything to TE vs LG to Malack vs Nale.

2) V making another deal with the IFCC for MOAR POWER.

3) The IFCC intervening through V to save the Order for their own processes.

4) There remain as yet undiscovered defenses left by Girard that the Order discovers near the Gate and manage to repurpose for their own use.

5) Unexpected help from the epic rogue who may or may not have a few Paladin levels that is the last surviving Scribble-ite, Serini. The Chekov's Gun for possible action by Serini was loaded when it was mentioned that the bomb-trap the Order set off in the desert automatically notified Girard AND her.

[The_Tentacle]

The gate must fall for dramatic tension. Also, V will most likely be taken over by the fiends to defend the gate. I would not be surprised if everyone allied against X, but I think that Tarquin split off to brief the rest of his party who are about to arrive. They will be attacked by X in big climactic battle while the remainder of the OotS gets rid of Nale and his casters (i don't have the courage to speculate on who will come out of that fight dead). Durkula is freed somehow and they head to Kraagor's gate.

PS: Redcloak is creating the portal you mentioned, Ghosty.

[Ghosty]

...PS: Redcloak is creating the portal you mentioned, Ghosty.

True, that time he is. But Xykon has to have some way of getting there before that, in order to build that gigantic fortress. Maybe RC is Gating him there every time, but RC hasn't been able to cast 9th level spells all that long (his comments when soloing the Resistance imply that he just turned 17th level) and it looks like Xykon's been constructing that thing a long time.

I can't figure out if T's summoning his entire army, his party, or both. Or maybe he's getting Ian and Geoff out of storage in case he needs them as a trump over Haley and Elan?

[Amphiox]

But if he loses, since he has Greater Teleport, and (so far as we know) the near-exact location of Kraagor's Gate, how could he not beat the Order to it?

This is basically Xykon going scry-and-die to the Gate (and we all know what Xykon thinks about THAT sort of strategy).

The thing though is Xykon has always had Greater Teleport, and could have done the exact same thing for the Azure City Gate, but didn't.

There is also a Dungeon built around Kraagor's Gate and the first rule of Dungeon Making is to ensure that it is immune to scry-and-die.

So for these reasons I actually doubt that Xykon is able or willing to teleport directly to the gates. Either 1) the coordinates he has from the diary are not in fact exact, but only give a general location, say within 1000 yards, 2) even if the coordinates are exact he won't teleport straight to them because either a) there are defences in place that prevent him from doing so, or b) he will choose not to as a precaution against blundering into any prepared defenses without knowing what they might be.

So if Xykon does teleport to Kraagor's Gate, it is far more likely that he won't teleport straight to the Gate Room, but instead teleport to some location just outside the Dungeon, from where he will try to penetrate those defenses. The Order will then have that time to rush to the Gate. Remember that Xykon was stuck outside Durokan's Gate for over a year.

[Jay R]

I think they should survive, all it would take is for the IFCC to use some of Vs time and they could mop up the Linear Guild ...

Am I the only one who remembers that the Linear Guild are the IFCC's pawns? The IFCC aren't trying to defeat the LG.

[Kish]

The IFCC doesn't verifiably want to defeat anyone that we know of.

I do think the people who are thinking the IFCC is going to ride in like the cavalry for the Order, even for self-serving reasons, are going to be disappointed. They're evil. Xykon-level evil and very good at their jobs. The last person they "helped" is currently having a nervous breakdown as a result of that help.

[Amphiox]

while the remainder of the OotS gets rid of Nale and his casters (i don't have the courage to speculate on who will come out of that fight dead). Durkula is freed somehow and they head to Kraagor's gate..

Ah, but yes you do! You are solidly positing that Malack will end up dead.

[Kish]

Not to speak for the appendage, but I think the word "somehow" speaks to possibilities of Malack setting Durkon free, or Durkon breaking free while Malack yet unlives, or...generally more than one possible way Durkon could be freed.

And anyway, there's no real possibility of Malack not ending the fight dead. He's dead now, and by his own word, even if Malack was resurrected he would cease to be Malack.

[rodneyAnonymous]

He's dead now, and by his own word, even if Malack was resurrected he would cease to be Malack.

I think it's odd to take that so literally. I believe he meant metaphorically he wouldn't be the same person if he wasn't a vampire anymore. He has been undead for 200 years, ostensibly much longer than he was alive.

[Kish]

Yes, and? The point, is that there is no way Malack will not end up dead. He will stay exactly as he is: Living dead. He will be destroyed: Ashes dead. Or he will be resurrected: Metaphorically dead.

[jidasfire]

The IFCC doesn't verifiably want to defeat anyone that we know of.

I do think the people who are thinking the IFCC is going to ride in like the cavalry for the Order, even for self-serving reasons, are going to be disappointed. They're evil. Xykon-level evil and very good at their jobs. The last person they "helped" is currently having a nervous breakdown as a result of that help.

In the worlds of Neil Gaiman, never trust a demon. He has a hundred motives for everything he does, 99 of which at least are malevolent.

And yeah, the whole point of this arc seems to be that the cavalry isn't coming. It seems likely that the Order is going to get out of this somehow, even if it's not apparent how. They are definitely in the losing position, but they have a few aces up their sleeves. Assuming V can get out of her/his funk, that could even the odds a little. Roy has his caster-buster attack, and they've found some room the Draketooths (Draketeeth? Someone probably beat me to that joke) were keeping very well hidden, yet I'm guessing was not the Gate. Perhaps it's a magical item stash? Perhaps it's some lore and knowledge to help illusionists and will turn Elan into a force to be reckoned with in the upcoming fight? Maybe not, but it's possible. Haley can still use scrolls, and Belkar, well, he's surprisingly crafty when he's back is to the wall, so perhaps he won't be as useless as he now seems. I think the Giant is setting the Linear Guild up for a fall by having them assume that casters always beat non-casters, since Roy's whole M.O. is that a non-caster like him stands a better chance against a caster like Xykon.

[Belkar<3]

They'll all die. They'll all die after blowing up the gate. Except for Elan who will be taken prisoner by Nale. And V who died beforehand by being killed by Belkar whilst under influence.

Then Roy, Haley, V and Belkar will meet the scribble and learn the true history of the gates. Meanwhile, Elan will redeem Durkon and defeat Tarquin with his super plan.

Really? I don't think Rich would ever let that happen. If they can't guard the gate, they won't blow it up, they'll just destroy it. And run. We already know the "true history of the order of the scribble" from SoD and extras, so I think that's rather redundant. How is Elan going to redeem Durkon? (Hem- Malack.) Tarquin is better than Elan at fighting, and I don't think Elan is smart enough to concoct a plan that good. Also, Nale just wants to kill him, so why would he take him prisoner? V almost certainly can't be killed by Belkar who has 1-3 Con and reduced levels, plus massive blood and hp loss.

Plus, you haven't included Tarquin's party or Team Evil.

[Ouroborosi]

I think Durkon's spell that he had prepared to raise on people from the death will be used on himself.

[dtilque]

[I can't do genuine OotS dialog, so sorry that this doesn't sound in character]


:haley: Roy, what we've found here is all well and good, but we need to think about setting up another ambush for the Linear Guild.
:roy: You're right, but I'm all out of ideas.
:haley: Elan and I have come up with something just might work.
:roy: It can't hurt to listen. Go ahead.
:elan: Wait, we can't just blurt it out here. Then it'll fail for sure.
:roy: But I'm part of the ambush, right? You have to tell me sometime.
:elan: That giant will hear...
:roy: Sigh. OK, we'll do it in a spoiler


:elan: The Linear Guild, having somehow made it past all those traps in the pyramid, come upon a slightly open double door. Numerous spell runes, all disabled, adorn the outside of the doors. An eerie music, like the violin music in Young Frankenstein, can be heard coming through the doors.
:roy: Young who?
:elan: Never mind, it's just eerie music. The LG open the doors and enter. They suddenly find themselves outside in the desert. A bright sun is in the sky. There's a few largish rocks around. The music is louder, but doesn't seem to be coming from anywhere in particular. Four sets of very obvious footprints lead away from the door.
:roy: But this isn't outside...
:haley: No questions, just roll with it.
:elan: The LG start following the footprints. The sun is hot, it combines with the music to sap their will. They have a hard time trudging along.
:roy: I didn't know you could have music that gives a penalty for will saves.
:haley: obscure 3rd party source book, of course. Where everything nonstandard comes from. We'll have to wear earplugs to avoid the effect.
:elan: About 15 feet past one of the rocks, the footprints become a mess. The LG stop to study them. Malack, bringing up the rear, is near the rock.
Suddenly, the music stops and he's enveloped in a blue dweomer. A voice says "Greater Dispel Magic". He's now unprotected from sunlight. He immediately starts to cast his protection spell. Except that you jump out from behind the rock and use your cleric-disrupting feat on him. His spell fails. If he tries again, you disrupt again. Eventually he'll run out of time and fry in the sun.
:haley: As soon as the GDM spell is cast, I begin putting arrows into Z. Vaarsuvius says he's particularly vulnerable to them, so I should be able to either kill him or make him retreat.
:roy: So the desert imagery and sun will be illusions. Can an illusory sun really kill a vampire?
:elan: If he believes in it, it can. That's why the music. We need to reduce his will power so he fails his saving throw.
:roy: What about Durkon?
:haley: He's in thrall to Malack. Malack won't have any time to give him any orders. After that, he'll probably become confused when the thralldom is suddenly released.
:roy: What about Nale, Tarquin, and the kobold?
:elan: I should be able to handle Nale.
:belkar: I'll take the kobold
:haley: I don't think you're in good enough shape to even take on a mouse...
:belkar: Maybe not, but I'll take him anyway.
:roy: So that leaves me to handle Tarquin, after Malack is gone. OK, sounds like a plan


Of course, Tarquin and Kilkil won't be there, but they don't know that when making their plans. The two fiends probably won't make much difference (except to Belkar).

So that's what I think they should do. The illusions needed are Hallucinatory Terrain for the desert, Major Image for the sun, and maybe a couple Silent Images for the footprints and rock. The only thing that's DeM-ish is the will-sapping music.

No doubt the Giant has a completely different idea.

[Jay R]

Won't Greater Dispel Magic also dispel the illusion of the desert sun? I've never played 3.5, but this wouldn't work in 2E.

[Mike Havran]

Idea

Even if by some chance Elan had a suitable spell for such illusion, it's really a stretch to assume all four casters fail their Will save, especially after huge circumstance bonus due to a desert area being in depth of a dungeon that served as a base of illusionists clan.

[Chantelune]

Don't count on it. Vaarsuvius isn't allowed to solve problems.


That was before the Order lost Durkon. A full team with a high-level wizard and cleric can overthrow most challenges, so V being incapacitated in any way helped not make things too easy for the Order. If V was there during both encounters so far, she might have done much more damage on Tarquin or the LG before the Order need to retreat, if they needed to at all. And in the second fight, she might have managed to prevent them to flee, as we know V is fond of dimensional anchor.

Now that Durkon is on the LG side and Belkar crippled, V being back and at full power is probably the only way for the Order to stand a fighting chance

[Gusion]

How is Elan going to redeem Durkon?

Depending on which rules The Giant is using for vampires, it is certainly possible. [Edit: Durkon hasn't had any blood and] has been a vampire for all of... what, 15 minutes max?

Some rule sets allow for a Remove Curse or Break Enchantment to cure early stages of vampirism. Both are spells that Elan is capable of casting.

Going even further, Elan may be able to cast Greater Dispel Magic on Malack. Then as humor he could cast Daylight, forgetting that it doesn't actually destroy vampires.

This chain of events would show incredibly growth in Elan's usefulness and abilities - supporting the concept of him "rising to the challenge" when the odds are stacked against him while also demonstrating he still isn't quite fully there yet.

For the record, I actually view it more likely that V casts Limited Wish in order to restore Durkon as part of attempting to redeem him/herself. While both storylines demonstrate development, I think Elan's actions would be more out-of-character for him and the idea of Break Enchantment countering vampirism is more controversial than a Limited Wish.

[zimmerwald1915]

Durkon hasn't had any blood
:belkar: Objection!

[The Pilgrim]

Durkon may be evil now, but that doesn't stops him from being loyal to Roy if the thralldom breaks. So killing Malak is a priority and would by itself turn the tables.

[elros]

I predict that Malack will prevent Nale from killing anyone in the Order, since that was Durkon's last request.
I also predict SOMETHING is still protecting the gate, and that protector will help the Order escape but then get destroyed by Xykon.
I'm more interested in two things:
1) what was Elan's Super Top Secret plan that he worked out with Durkon (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0837.html)?
2) who scried on the Order in the Desert (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html)?

[ravidubey]

Haley sets some nasty traps in advance.

V rejoins the group and casts Antimagic Field on his raven who lands on Roy's shoulder. The group is stunned that the raven actually exists.

They lure the overconfident bad guys into a narrow hallway.

Without any way (at least that they are ready for) to fight from long range, the evil spellcasters can only watch as the traps first soften up and then Roy and Haley's arrows dismembers and puncture their summoned front line buddies.

Elan sings ineffectively.

Stymied, they don't notice Belkar behind them read Explosive Runes as it caves in the hall behind them while his evasion protects him. They turn to try and dominate Belkar again and V Disintegrates the high ceiling wall, which just so happens to be facing the late afternoon sun.

Sunlight streams in from above... just as Roy advances the AM field onto the vampires. All their buffs fall and none of their necromancy works... including the magic that protects Malack from the sun. He goes powerless, and in that instant Durkon turns from Roy and grabs Malack to pin him as both are destroyed in the sunlight.

[Belkar<3]

Even if by some chance Elan had a suitable spell for such illusion, it's really a stretch to assume all four casters fail their Will save, especially after huge circumstance bonus due to a desert area being in depth of a dungeon that served as a base of illusionists clan.

BTW, Kudos to dtilque.

Actually, it could possible, as we know Elan has all sorts of illusions, he definitely has GDM, and I don't think the will saves has anything to do with it. I don't know why you included that. The only stretch is Elan's ability to focus on the illusion and fight Nale, and Haley vs. Z.

[TRH]

Sunlight streams in from above... just as Roy advances the AM field onto the vampires. All their buffs fall and none of their necromancy works... including the magic that protects Malack from the sun. He goes powerless, and in that instant Durkon turns from Roy and grabs Malack to pin him as both are destroyed in the sunlight.

But then Durkon wouldn't get to return home, unless you brought his ashes in an urn or something. And even then he wouldn't be bringing Death and Destruction.

Edit: And by the way, we shouldn't overestimate Elan's skill with illusions. The best he's ever done was that one with a talking Belkar, and even then he couldn't get it to do exactly what he wanted. Something as elaborate as that desert sun thing seems a little out of his league.

[Belkar<3]

who scried on the Order in the Desert?

I'm pretty sure it was Z.

[Belkar<3]

Stymied, they don't notice Belkar behind them read Explosive Runes as it caves in the hall behind them while his evasion protects him. They turn to try and dominate Belkar again and V Disintegrates the high ceiling wall, which just so happens to be facing the late afternoon sun.


Belkar doesn't have Evasion. He's a ranger.
EDIT: Unless that works by 3.5 rules. Still, he might not make his Reflex save.

[zimmerwald1915]

Belkar doesn't have Evasion. He's a ranger.
EDIT: Unless that works by 3.5 rules. Still, he might not make his Reflex save.
It does. 3.5 Rangers get Evasion.

[Rakoa]

I recall Belkar even using said Evasion against a fireball or something of the sort at some point.

[TRH]

I recall Belkar even using said Evasion against a fireball or something of the sort at some point.

You might be thinking of that Hellhound's fire breath from 867, but I can't think of any other instance off the top of my head. Still, he did seem to be using Evasion there.

[luagha]

Qarr's job is obviously to get Vaarsuvius back in the game. The nineteen minutes each of the CNL has is useless if V dies or quits or goes off to raise the perfect avocado. They need him in the right place at the right time and I have my suspicions as to what that is.

As to how Roy, Haley, Elan, and barely-able-to-walk Belkar can defeat four spellcasters and two fiends, the obvious answer is that this whole dungeon was designed to maximize the power of illusionists and they have an illusionist on their team, Elan.

We've already seen traps with 9th level spells on them. It doesn't take a whole lot of that to put people down.

[ZarDaranth]

Totally wild speculation:

Obviously Qarr is on assignment from the IFCC to get V out of that funk. Probably to the effect of "Do whatever it takes to get the elf moving.". Blackwing will reveal Qarr's employers to V, V will try to blast Qarr, Qarr will plane shift downstairs, V will move towards the order.

Linear Guild meets the Order. Belkar has a historic first: he makes a listen check, noticing Nale's overexposition as they wander the halls. Haley gets initiative, two arrows into Z as a response to the Flesh to Stone back at the arena. As Z tries to recover, Roy bull rushes and pops Horace's disrupting attack on the dark elf. Z is taken care of.

Fiends try to attack Haley, V comes in with a triumphant re-entry, with a beautiful barrage of awesome arcane and magical might. V is super paranoid, calling out the Linear Guild for being servants of all sorts of demons, the fiends being further proof of the involvement. Overkill ensues, with a Belkar comment "Same great overkill, now twice the crazy." And the fiends are gone, and Belkar passes out, with Mr. Scruffy guarding him.

Malack and Durkon stay back, with Roy starting to freak out again. Before Roy can rush the cleric duo, Malack does a Hold Person on Roy, wondering where Nale went, with Haley wondering where Elan went. Cutscene over to Nale and Elan swordfighting, both quite beaten up from both attack damage and traps being sprung. Nale makes light of Durkon's turning being hilarious, Elan counters with Durkon taking care of Sabine in rather short order, with an added retort that Haley is a much better kisser than Sabine. Nale, enraged, tries to coup de grace Elan, but rushes headfirst into a trap, causing an explosion (with an ambiguous outcome and scene change).

The explosion rocks the lower temple, with the Order and Malack/Durkon still talking. They note that the explosion didn't sound like the gate exploding, but it was likely Elan's fault. Malack dryly rolls his eyes, hoping it killed Nale in the process. Durkon tries to lunge after Roy, but Malack asserts dominance, to Roy's irritation (the Hold Person was removed between strips). Malack offers a bit of remorse at the state of the situtation, stating he would have gladly just killed Nale, lied to Tarquin, and let the Order live. The entire temple is a sad place for Malack, as Durkon died there, again angering Roy. Malack tells Roy and company that he will not attack them, as he made a promise to the Durkon that was, and turns to walk away.

As Malack tries to walk away, the entire scene stops, except for Z and V. Qarr plane shifts in, along with the IFCC guys (and a couple random fiends holding an unconscious Nale). V gasps at being right, at the IFCC seemingly backing the Linear Guild, and Z being taken alongside Nale back down to the fiery depths. Qarr makes a last comment before leaving: "We'll be back for you soon, elf!" (Which earns a smile from the IFCC, who are waving at V.)

Time resumes, with V visibly shaken again, sobbing down on the ground. Haley notices the sudden change in V, but as Malack leaves the room, Elan limps back into the room, screaming "Roy! It's Nale, he's...!" As the temple is rocked and starts shaking.

[Kish]

I recall Belkar even using said Evasion against a fireball or something of the sort at some point.
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html

[Rakoa]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0469.html

That's the one, thanks Kish.

[Belkar<3]

That's the one, thanks Kish.

Curse myself playing off of long forgotten and irrelevant 3e rules!

[rodneyAnonymous]

2) who scried on the Order in the Desert (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0698.html)?


I'm pretty sure it was Z.

Definitely. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=14733248&postcount=23)

[JusticeZero]

We already know this gate is going to get destroyed, and that everyone is going to have to run for the last gate. (Because there are TWO GATES, duh..) They'll recover V at some appropriate time i'm sure.

Do we actually know what kinds of drain Belkar is under? The running assumption is that he's at Con 1, level 1 right now, but i'm not sure whether we know that he's been affected by both drains? Full con but level 1 would still leave him looking pretty puny.

[Toofey]

I strongly suspect the answer to this question is going to be something along the lines of

CCCCRRRRACKKKAKKOOOOOOOOM

[JackRackham]

I'm guessing Vaarsuvius returns and duels Z, with help from Haley (and Belkar using a ranged weapon if Haley has an extra). Roy will go apeshat on Malack with his undead-killing sword (he'll be more pissed than when Xykon broke it), and Elan will successfully duel Nale. When Roy kills Malack, Durkon will regain his free will and will decide to postpone his sun bath until after he's saved the world - being a Dwarf is about doing your duty ESPECIALLY if it's unpleasant.

EDIT: The only thing I can't figure out is how the OOTS will avoid getting boned by gaze attacks...

[dtilque]

Even if by some chance Elan had a suitable spell for such illusion,

I listed the spells that would be necessary. The only one we don't know that he has for sure is Hallucinatory Terrain. Since Elan likes illusions, it's a reasonable guess that he took that as one of his 4th level spells. I think it's the only 4th level illusion spell available to Bards.


it's really a stretch to assume all four casters fail their Will save, especially after huge circumstance bonus due to a desert area being in depth of a dungeon that served as a base of illusionists clan.

Well, yes. Although I don't think it'd be all that unlikely that the pyramid has some secret doors to the outside somewhere along its base. And the LG probably haven't run into any illusions yet. And since they know the Draketooths are all dead, they may assume all of their spells are expired.




BTW, Kudos to dtilque.
Thank you.


Actually, it could possible, as we know Elan has all sorts of illusions, he definitely has GDM, and I don't think the will saves has anything to do with it. I don't know why you included that.

The will saves are part of illusions. If a character fails the will save, they believe it's true. Vampires have a big bonus for their will save rolls. Thus the music to reduce their chances of making their saving rolls.


The only stretch is Elan's ability to focus on the illusion and fight Nale, and Haley vs. Z.

Elan won't have to fight and focus on an illusion. The illusion is only necessary until Malack expires (and he's long past his expiration date). Malack should be toasted in only a round or two after the trap is sprung. If Elan positions himself so he won't be near the LG, it will take Nale a round or two to reach him.

Elan will have to play music while maintaining the spells. But there's nothing moving in any of the spells, so I don't think he would have problems.

As for Haley vs Z, see the Yukyuk/V vs Z fight a while ago. Z mostly didn't get any spells off while being shot by hand crossbows. Haley's bow should pack a lot more punch and be even more disruptive to Z's casting than that.




Won't Greater Dispel Magic also dispel the illusion of the desert sun? I've never played 3.5, but this wouldn't work in 2E.

No, in 3.5, GDM (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm) can be cast as either an area spell (which would dispel the illusion) or targeted to a single creature, spell, or item. In this case, it would be targeted at the Protection from Daylight spell.




Edit: And by the way, we shouldn't overestimate Elan's skill with illusions. The best he's ever done was that one with a talking Belkar, and even then he couldn't get it to do exactly what he wanted. Something as elaborate as that desert sun thing seems a little out of his league.

He also had a group of eight people walking and talking here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0455.html). The desert sun doesn't involve any talking or moving at all. It just has to look like the sun and be hot. It wouldn't even be a Major Image if it weren't for the thermal effects.

[Chantelune]

Elan is good with illusions when there's someone to tell him how to be efficient with them. Or when facing an ogre with int stat lower than him.

[zimmerwald1915]

Elan is good with illusions when there's someone to tell him how to be efficient with them. Or when facing an ogre with int stat lower than him.
Elan's ability to formulate new plans is hampered by his simpleminded persona, so yes, he can be more effective with a coach. He successfully (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0806.html) followed V's instructions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0790.html) in the arena fight with the Linear Guild. Likewise, his roles in the ziggurat-top fight and the ambush were determined for him by Roy, and he did what he was supposed to (which admittedly wasn't much). But he doesn't seem to have a problem remembering old tactics that worked and executing them to repeated success. He didn't need a coach to be effective with the illusion of a Celestial Tree Sloth (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0805.html), using basically the same tactic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0478.html) Vaarsuvius taught him at the Azure City docks.

[veti]

Elan can be very (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0387.html) resourceful (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0552.html) with his illusions when he needs to be.

The key point being, when he needs to be. Elan becomes effective only when it's dramatically appropriate - which in this case probably means, when he's all that's standing between the Order and a TPK.

[Olinser]

Depending on which rules The Giant is using for vampires, it is certainly possible. [Edit: Durkon hasn't had any blood and] has been a vampire for all of... what, 15 minutes max?

Some rule sets allow for a Remove Curse or Break Enchantment to cure early stages of vampirism. Both are spells that Elan is capable of casting.

Going even further, Elan may be able to cast Greater Dispel Magic on Malack. Then as humor he could cast Daylight, forgetting that it doesn't actually destroy vampires.

This chain of events would show incredibly growth in Elan's usefulness and abilities - supporting the concept of him "rising to the challenge" when the odds are stacked against him while also demonstrating he still isn't quite fully there yet.

For the record, I actually view it more likely that V casts Limited Wish in order to restore Durkon as part of attempting to redeem him/herself. While both storylines demonstrate development, I think Elan's actions would be more out-of-character for him and the idea of Break Enchantment countering vampirism is more controversial than a Limited Wish.

Yes... but almost all rule sets that allow Break Enchantment or Remove Curse to remove vampirism specify that it must be done BEFORE the vampire tastes humanoid blood. It counters that by forcing them to pass a progressively harder Will check every hour to resist the urge to feed.

Once they've tasted blood, the only thing that cures it are Wish or Miracle.

So basically, Durkon is screwed unless Redcloak feels like reversing it for him.

[Morty]

Personally, I agree that Roy's anti-spellcaster feat might come into play. We know he learned it in the afterlife but we don't know if he's managed to spend a feat slot on it, since he hasn't fought any spellcasters since then. Now he's going to face four spellcasters in close quarters, so we're about to find out if he managed to master that move in the mortal plane as well. But if he has, it might be just what he needs to cut through the Linear Guild casters, especially if Elan puts that Greater Dispel Magic spell to use - again, he hasn't had an opportunity to use it, because V and Durkon were there to handle magic, but now he does.

[Olinser]

Personally, I agree that Roy's anti-spellcaster feat might come into play. We know he learned it in the afterlife but we don't know if he's managed to spend a feat slot on it, since he hasn't fought any spellcasters since then. Now he's going to face four spellcasters in close quarters, so we're about to find out if he managed to master that move in the mortal plane as well. But if he has, it might be just what he needs to cut through the Linear Guild casters, especially if Elan puts that Greater Dispel Magic spell to use - again, he hasn't had an opportunity to use it, because V and Durkon were there to handle magic, but now he does.

Well in all honesty, I don't think this situation is nearly as big a deal as people seem to think.

UNLESS Durkon got his spell slots refreshed (unlikely), with his use of Greater Planar Ally, he now has no spell above 4th level prepared. Pretty much his only good spell is Thor's Might - which he already stated he couldn't use with the ceiling low. So Durkon is basically relegated to melee combat to be useful.

Malack likewise has burned through a good number of his high-level spells. He's already used 2 4th levels (Poison and Divine Might), 3 5th levels (Quickened Inflict Light Wounds, 2 Flame Strikes) and 2 6th levels (Harm and Greater Dispel Magic) already, in addition to the unknown spell levels he used on Kilkil (which was probably either Freedom of Movement or Break Enchantment - so that's another 4th or 5th level slot gone), and 2 Protection from Daylight for both himself and Durkon (plus one Hold Person for the Belkster). If, as we suspect, he is in fact 12th level, that means he's basically coasting on his Wisdom Bonus spells for 5th and 6th right now, and dangerously low on 4th as well.

Nale is a laughable combatant at best, and him thinking he's a 'caster' on the level of the other 3 is just delusional.

Z is the only real heavy-hitter left, with most of his spells intact, minus 2 Vitriolic Spheres (1 empowered for sure) and 1 Summon. If V comes back, then Roy takes on Z, and Elan takes Nale, that leaves Haley and V to handle Malack and Durkon.

I think those are pretty good odds - especially because I think V's entrance to the party is going to be a Dismissal (or maybe even a Banishment!)

[Morty]

Well in all honesty, I don't think this situation is nearly as big a deal as people seem to think.

UNLESS Durkon got his spell slots refreshed (unlikely), with his use of Greater Planar Ally, he now has no spell above 4th level prepared. Pretty much his only good spell is Thor's Might - which he already stated he couldn't use with the ceiling low. So Durkon is basically relegated to melee combat to be useful.

Malack likewise has burned through a good number of his high-level spells. He's already used 2 4th levels (Poison and Divine Might), 3 5th levels (Quickened Inflict Light Wounds, 2 Flame Strikes) and 2 6th levels (Harm and Greater Dispel Magic) already, in addition to the unknown spell levels he used on Kilkil (which was probably either Freedom of Movement or Break Enchantment - so that's another 4th or 5th level slot gone), and 2 Protection from Daylight for both himself and Durkon (plus one Hold Person for the Belkster). If, as we suspect, he is in fact 12th level, that means he's basically coasting on his Wisdom Bonus spells for 5th and 6th right now, and dangerously low on 4th as well.

Nale is a laughable combatant at best, and him thinking he's a 'caster' on the level of the other 3 is just delusional.

Z is the only real heavy-hitter left, with most of his spells intact, minus 2 Vitriolic Spheres (1 empowered for sure) and 1 Summon. If V comes back, then Roy takes on Z, and Elan takes Nale, that leaves Haley and V to handle Malack and Durkon.

I think those are pretty good odds - especially because I think V's entrance to the party is going to be a Dismissal (or maybe even a Banishment!)

Yes, I agree. The Linear Guild casters have expended spells and the combat-capable members of the Order are on full or almost full HP and spells - Elan hasn't cast anything today yet, I think. I think that Roy might attack Malack rather than Z, though, because his sword would be quite dangerous to him.

[Olinser]

Yes, I agree. The Linear Guild casters have expended spells and the combat-capable members of the Order are on full or almost full HP and spells - Elan hasn't cast anything today yet, I think. I think that Roy might attack Malack rather than Z, though, because his sword would be quite dangerous to him.

Could be, but I just think it's more likely he's going to try to take Z because V is no match for him (due to build tailoring, not power difference), and Haley is extremely vulnerable to Flesh to Stone, as previously proved.

I just think that Roy is going to be very hesitant to get into melee with a vampire, with no death ward and no way to restore level drain or constitution damage from one of them.

[orrion]

No, in 3.5, GDM (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/dispelMagic.htm) can be cast as either an area spell (which would dispel the illusion) or targeted to a single creature, spell, or item. In this case, it would be targeted at the Protection from Daylight spell.


How can Elan target a spell he doesn't know exists?

Better to target Malack.

[dtilque]

How can Elan target a spell he doesn't know exists?

Malack mentioned the spell within the hearing of Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html). Belkar could pass the info on to Elan.



Elan is good with illusions when there's someone to tell him how to be efficient with them. Or when facing an ogre with int stat lower than him.

Yeah, I figure Haley would be the one to put my ambush scenario together. Elan would just provide dramatic touches.

[Olinser]

Malack mentioned the spell within the hearing of Belkar (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0871.html). Belkar could pass the info on to Elan.




Yeah, I figure Haley would be the one to put my ambush scenario together. Elan would just provide dramatic touches.

His point is that why would he waste it targeting a single spell, even if he knows it exists.

He can just target Malack, and he'll still dispel it, PLUS any other spells Malack may have cast.

If he targets just the spell, he can only dispel that spell. If he targets Malack, he can get everything, and the DC is the same, regardless.

[Morty]

Could be, but I just think it's more likely he's going to try to take Z because V is no match for him (due to build tailoring, not power difference), and Haley is extremely vulnerable to Flesh to Stone, as previously proved.

I just think that Roy is going to be very hesitant to get into melee with a vampire, with no death ward and no way to restore level drain or constitution damage from one of them.

Malack would have a harder time grappling Roy than Durkon, but I suppose Roy might be unwilling to take any chances. And with Z's spell and feat selection being tailored to fight V, he might indeed crumble quickly if Roy gets into melee range.

[Tre of the Wood]

If I were playing, it would be time to break out the potions and scrolls. Enough buffs can allow the Order to best the LG, plus Tarquin has conveniently removed himself from the situation. With a few buffs, say some magic resist, maybe, the combat based Order can handle the now all-spellcaster L.G. Malack's hatred for Nale plus his promise not to kill Durkon's friends may have an effect, but even if it doesn't, I am confident that Roy could handle the vampires. His sword gets bonuses against the undead, and there is no way he doesn't have a scroll of disruption of something similar saved up for Xykon he could instead use on a vampire. Elan can also cast some devastating illusions simply by placing them over the traps already in place protecting the gate, and heal to some degree. I also highly suspect that the gate has additional protections in place that have not expired, but who knows. Tarquin has something up his sleeve that I assume he will spring AFTER he sees which of his sons can best the other in the upcoming fight. Then it's either a team-up between the Order and Tarquin against Xykon or Elan's plan to fight Tarquin comes up. All in all, the book will probably end before Xykon even gets here, so I'm not too worried about him.

tl;dr:
1) The Order probably has potions/scrolls saved up. Some of these are undoubably aimed at fighting Xykon, and should apply to the undead vampires.
2) Elan can cast illusions over Girard's Traps, with extreme efficacy.
3) Tarquin has separated himself from the L.G., making them all casters. They have no melee ability.

[TRH]

1) The Order probably has potions/scrolls saved up. Some of these are undoubably aimed at fighting Xykon, and should apply to the undead vampires.

I'm not sure I buy this. The Order has generally been extremely underequipped in terms of potions/scrolls/wands for a party of their level, and the only subversion of this I can think of is Vaarsuvius at Azure City, which was at least partially a Chekov's Gun. I mean, remember when Roy was falling through the air and checking his inventory to try and save himself, and yet the only potions he had were Delay Poison and Shillelagh Oil, not counting the one healing potion he'd apparently also had on his person and used after taking hits for Elan. It would just seem weird for the OOTS to suddenly have a surfeit of potions and scrolls that's never been so much as hinted at before.



3) Tarquin has separated himself from the L.G., making them all casters. They have no melee ability.

Fair enough, it's not like Nale and co. could just summon up some melee-competent backup. Oh wait, they just did. And Vampires just make terrible front-line fighters, what with their +6 strength adjustment and ability to drain levels and/or constitution. The Linear Guild don't stand a chance against Roy, do they? :smallsigh:

[zimmerwald1915]

Has the possibility that the Piscoloth and the Hamatula themselves work directly for the IFCC been raised? Planar Binding and Planar Ally can, depending on how the initial bargains go, give the called creatures a lot of leeway to advance their own agendas while ostensibly following orders.

[TRH]

Has the possibility that the Piscoloth and the Hamatula themselves work directly for the IFCC been raised? Planar Binding and Planar Ally can, depending on how the initial bargains go, give the called creatures a lot of leeway to advance their own agendas while ostensibly following orders.

Interesting idea, and another reason I'm hesitating to come up with my own speculation for how the OOTS gets out of this. There are two parties who've yet to reveal any of their hand yet at Girard's Gate - the IFCC and Xykon - and they're both too powerful and too unpredictable to not change everything when they do make their move. Throw in whatever Tarquin's got up his sleeve and it just feels like it's too soon to start groping for 'ways out'. Near enough anything can happen at this point, and I'd rather wait for the situation to be a bit less foggy before I start with my guessing.

[dtilque]

His point is that why would he waste it targeting a single spell, even if he knows it exists.

He can just target Malack, and he'll still dispel it, PLUS any other spells Malack may have cast.

If he targets just the spell, he can only dispel that spell. If he targets Malack, he can get everything, and the DC is the same, regardless.

Fair enough.

BTW, the impetus for this ambush idea would come from three careless words by Roy that really stung Elan. He'd want to show Roy how wrong he was, but he's not sure how. So he consults with Haley, who then hatches this plan.

[Xenrei]

The events of the new comic could open some doors for the Order. Maybe V really will save the day! :smallsmile:

[Olinser]

The events of the new comic could open some doors for the Order. Maybe V really will save the day! :smallsmile:

I have the feeling that V's introduction to the party will be a game-changing 'DISMISSAL!'

Probably delivered right after Nale makes some smug speech about how his demons are going to rip Elan a new one.

[zimmerwald1915]

I have the feeling that V's introduction to the party will be a game-changing 'DISMISSAL!'

Probably delivered right after Nale makes some smug speech about how his demons are going to rip Elan a new one.
Do you mean banishment? Dismissal only targets one creature while banishment can target many, up to around 30 HD worth of creatures at V's level. What's more, V has actually cast banishment from her spell slots on panel, while she's only ever cast dismissal from scrolls.

That said, I wouldn't bet on it. V's not allowed to solve problems.

[Olinser]

Do you mean banishment? Dismissal only targets one creature while banishment can target many, up to around 30 HD worth of creatures at V's level. What's more, V has actually cast banishment from her spell slots on panel, while she's only ever cast dismissal from scrolls.

That said, I wouldn't bet on it. V's not allowed to solve problems.

... When did V cast banishment on panel?

[hamishspence]

... When did V cast banishment on panel?

Here:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0585.html

[TRH]

... When did V cast banishment on panel?

Tried using it to get rid of Qarr's Pit Fiend friend back when the former was working for Kubota, but got attacked so it fizzled.

Edit: Of course I got ninja'd.

[JSSheridan]

Hmm, just reading over the whole arc made me think of something.

Comic 883 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html)

Tarquin: Business, Malack. I'll catch up when (Kilkil & I) are done.

Reminds me of this, 742 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0742.html)

T: I'll send 500 Dragoons to join the battle.

Business is code for his empire building scheme with his party. I think the other four members of his party will show up. Then when the battle between the OotS and LG reaches it's climax, Tarquin's team arrives and steamrolls everyone who's still standing.

Nale is "killed," though death isn't the end for someone with attachments to fiends. He could still play a roll as a lesser devil of some kind working for the IFCC. After all, recurring foes always get stronger with successive appearances. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0817.html)

Elan also let Xykon's name slip in 760 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0760.html). Tarquin learned a good bit about him from Malack's acolytes before he left.

[137beth]

V's not allowed to solve problems.
You've said that a lot before, but I don't think you've ever explained why. And yes, V has solved problems before.

[Eric Tolle]

You might want to talk to Elan and lord Kubota when out comes to Varsuvius solving problems. Of course you're going to need a Commune or something to ask .Kubota.

[zimmerwald1915]

You've said that a lot before, but I don't think you've ever explained why. And yes, V has solved problems before.
The serious reason is that that's how I interpret the Giant's commentary in War and XPs, starting before strip 412 and continuing after strip 422. For those who don't have the book, here are the relevant bits:


I then made certain to isolate characters who could change the intended outcome of events away from the action...

One of the prime offenders in this area was Vaarsuvius. The unfortunate truth is that a high-level D&D wizard is enormously powerful and can manage effects that would have nullified most of the plot twists I had planned. A wizard could have blasted Xykon from afar or given Roy a flying spell (or at least a feather fall), all of which would have derailed my planned death scene. If I had created the physics of the OOTS world from scratch, I would have simply not given Vaarsuvius any capabilities that could interfere with the plot, but one of the great writing obstacles I face is that it is the game rules that set the boundaries of my characters' power. My readers know what a wizard of V's level should be able to pull off, and when he/she fails to display such powers in a do-or-die situation, they (rightly) cry foul. And so I wanted V out of the way of the others. I still wanted him/her to get the chance to unleash his/her magic on the battlefield to full effect - just, you know, over there. The opening salvo (the titanium elementals) therefore effectively separates V from the rest of the party, and they remain apart for the rest of the battle.
In other words, for the story to work, except when it directly concerns her, V must be kept from influencing it. Thus, V isn't allowed to solve problems. More elegantly and precisely stated, V isn't allowed to solve other people's problems. She can't win the Battle of Azure City: that's Roy's job, even if he failed. She can't find or communicate with Haley: that's Haley's job. She can't reunite the party: that's Durkon's job. She can't kill Xykon: that's Roy's job again. V's job is to stick to her self-centered little subplot and not interfere in the roles of the real main characters.

This arc has been particularly telling in terms of how V needs to be kept out of the action for the story to work. In War and XPs she was separated from the party once, by the elementals. In Don't Split the Party she was separated from the party twice: once when she left Elan and Durkon, and once again when she left to kill Xykon. In this arc she's been split twice from the party again: once by Z's plane shift and once by her own panic attack and the Draketooths' trap. All to keep her from influencing events outside her own personal sphere.

The other reason I trot out the "V isn't allowed to solve problems" canard is that it's a wonderfully dismissive thing to say to people that think whatever problem has just cropped up in a strip should be solved by V, just because V probably has the power to do so. There were numerous reasons, for instance, why V wasn't in a position to save Durkon and Belkar from Malack, but it was just so much fun to say after bringing them all up.


You might want to talk to Elan and lord Kubota when out comes to Varsuvius solving problems. Of course you're going to need a Commune or something to ask .Kubota.
Yeah, because murdering Kubota solved problems, rather than causing new ones (like forcing Elan to cover up the murder) or exposing old ones (like V's contempt for the Azurites, manifested in his "denigration" of Therkla - remember that it was this that opened the rift between V and Elan and led to V's departure and the whole mess of problems that resulted).

[Auldrin]

Yeah, because murdering Kubota solved problems, rather than causing new ones

That's pretty much exactly accurate. Kubota's plan was pretty solid and would've weakened the Azurites significantly. V leaving allowed him to deal with the black dragon mother sooner rather than later (Her showing up in the middle of something else wouldn't have been ideal) and then allowed her to save O-Chul. The Draketooth murder was more problematic, but I consider that a separate mistake entirely, and you didn't even mention it.

You're completely right about V being told to go live in a bubble whenever adversity happens, of course.

[zimmerwald1915]

That's pretty much exactly accurate. Kubota's plan was pretty solid and would've weakened the Azurites significantly.
I wouldn't be so sure. Kubota himself called his story "not perfect". But does it matter if the Azurites are weakened? They're stuck in some backwater far away from any action regardless of whose political interests are served by the trial. They played no active role in the resolution of Don't Split the Party. The only role they've played since is the dispatch of Lien and O-Chul to Kraagor's Gate and being a target for Niu's sending, neither of which would have been impacted by a sharp increase in Kubota's popularity.


V leaving allowed him to deal with the black dragon mother sooner rather than later (Her showing up in the middle of something else wouldn't have been ideal) and then allowed her to save O-Chul.
By "deal with the black dragon mother" I assume you mean "expose herself to the black dragon mother who wasn't willing to risk attacking the fleet, then promptly get her kiester handed to her by said black dragon mother, and finally sell her soul to fiends for the power to revenge herself on said black dragon mother for the slight". None of this, of course, is problematic at all :smallamused:


The Draketooth murder was more problematic, but I consider that a separate mistake entirely, and you didn't even mention it.
Why do you consider it a separate mistake? Because it's more convenient for your argument to ignore a big honking piece of evidence? I did mention it, by the way, though only obliquely, when I referred to "the whole mess of problems that resulted" from V's leaving.

[Auldrin]

I wouldn't be so sure. Kubota himself called his story "not perfect". But does it matter if the Azurites are weakened? They're stuck in some backwater far away from any action regardless of whose political interests are served by the trial. They played no active role in the resolution of Don't Split the Party. The only role they've played since is the dispatch of Lien and O-Chul to Kraagor's Gate and being a target for Niu's sending, neither of which would have been impacted by a sharp increase in Kubota's popularity.


By "deal with the black dragon mother" I assume you mean "expose herself to the black dragon mother who wasn't willing to risk attacking the fleet, then promptly get her kiester handed to her by said black dragon mother, and finally sell her soul to fiends for the power to revenge herself on said black dragon mother for the slight". None of this, of course, is problematic at all :smallamused:


Why do you consider it a separate mistake? Because it's more convenient for your argument to ignore a big honking piece of evidence? I did mention it, by the way, though only obliquely, when I referred to "the whole mess of problems that resulted" from V's leaving.

Okay, familicide would never have happened had he not killed Kobuta, you can have that one. Definitely bad. The BDM would not have given up if she'd stayed with the fleet for a few more weeks. Eventually they would've been isolated, V would've used his major spells on something, and the dragon would've taken the opportunity.

You've conveniently set up the final stage of my argument for me (not meant to be rude, just a statement) in that you completely undervalue sentient life. The 'slight' that the BDM mentioned? Eternal torment of innocent children. The cost of Azure city being ruled by Kobuta? The deaths of good people and the vilification of others. Oh, and of course O-Chul would've continued being tortured daily for possibly months longer.

Edit: Familicide killed random innocent people too, actually, but it's not like you care about that. V did what he could, even if she did it for the wrong reasons, and *some* good did come of it.

[zimmerwald1915]

Okay, familicide would never have happened had he not killed Kobuta, you can have that one. Definitely bad. The BDM would not have given up if she'd stayed with the fleet for a few more weeks. Eventually they would've been isolated, V would've used his major spells on something, and the dragon would've taken the opportunity.
Isolated from whom? The ABD calls out "a bard, a cleric of Thor, two paladins, even a ninja, all high level" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html) as the threats to her. Had V not left the fleet, Haley would have contacted Durkon and V would have left for Greysky City with him and Elan, via [i]wind walk. The ABD could not have intercepted them en route, even if she teleported directly to their location; ancient black dragons have a fly speed of 150 ft., while a wind walker has a fly speed of 600 ft. She would have had to have tried to ambush them in Greysky City, where she would have had the same problem. She'd be facing not the motley collection on the Azurite fleet, but almost the whole Order - and she would have been facing the whole Order if they managed to resurrect Roy before she attacked - plus the Thieves' Guild if Haley hadn't managed to burn that bridge before she attacked. Her next best opportunity would have been on the boat to the Western Continent or in the desert itself, though again she'd be facing the whole Order. Once V's ensconced under Tarquin's protection she's invulnerable until Z plane shifts her. Thus the next opportunity for the ABD to catch V alone would be on the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing.


You've conveniently set up the final stage of my argument for me (not meant to be rude, just a statement) in that you completely undervalue sentient life. The 'slight' that the BDM mentioned? Eternal torment of innocent children. The cost of Azure city being ruled by Kobuta? The deaths of good people and the vilification of others. Oh, and of course O-Chul would've continued being tortured daily for possibly months longer.
Familicide was a worse consequence, I think, than all the negative consequences you raise. What's more damning, however, is that from V's perspective Familicide's negative consequences were foreseeable, while the negative consequences of leaving Kubota alive were not. As V herself pointed out at the time, she knew she was willfully causing death on a massive scale when she cast the spell. As she pointed out more recently, she should have known that most of those people would be innocents.

On the other hand, V had no idea who Kubota was at the time she murdered him. She had no idea his death would have consequences beyond sparing her "another tedious trial scene". She had no idea that the ABD was shadowing her, something that the ABD took the time to gloat about. She had no idea what the ABD had in mind for her children. She had no idea O-Chul was alive.

Besides, the Azurites had already been the victims of genocide at the hands of Redcloak. The number of people the fleet could hold was nowhere near the number of people in Azure City at the time of its conquest, never mind the outlying territories, and we don't see enough slaves to account for the rest of the population still being alive. Any negative consequences they might suffer at the hands of Kubota pale in comparison to near-total extermination as a people.

EDIT: oh, and the slight I referred to? That was the ABD humiliating V, not threatening her children. And I say that not because I think the lives and souls of kindergarteners are unimportant, but because that's how V treats them. She says not one word to her children in the whole scene, and barely speaks to Inkyrius until forced to. Familicide's purpose was to torture the ABD for having the gall to humiliate V, not to protect her family.


Edit: Familicide killed random innocent people too, actually, but it's not like you care about that. V did what he could, even if she did it for the wrong reasons, and *some* good did come of it.
No good came of Familicide.

[Auldrin]

Isolated from whom? The ABD calls out "a bard, a cleric of Thor, two paladins, even a ninja, all high level" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0628.html) as the threats to her. Had V not left the fleet, Haley would have contacted Durkon and V would have left for Greysky City with him and Elan, via [i]wind walk. The ABD could not have intercepted them en route, even if she teleported directly to their location; ancient black dragons have a fly speed of 150 ft., while a wind walker has a fly speed of 600 ft. She would have had to have tried to ambush them in Greysky City, where she would have had the same problem. She'd be facing not the motley collection on the Azurite fleet, but almost the whole Order - and she would have been facing the whole Order if they managed to resurrect Roy before she attacked - plus the Thieves' Guild if Haley hadn't managed to burn that bridge before she attacked. Her next best opportunity would have been on the boat to the Western Continent or in the desert itself, though again she'd be facing the whole Order. Once V's ensconced under Tarquin's protection she's invulnerable until Z plane shifts her. Thus the next opportunity for the ABD to catch V alone would be on the Semi-Elemental Plane of Ranch Dressing.


Familicide was a worse consequence, I think, than all the negative consequences you raise. What's more damning, however, is that from V's perspective Familicide's negative consequences were foreseeable, while the negative consequences of leaving Kubota alive were not. As V herself pointed out at the time, she knew she was willfully causing death on a massive scale when she cast the spell. As she pointed out more recently, she should have known that most of those people would be innocents.

On the other hand, V had no idea who Kubota was at the time she murdered him. She had no idea his death would have consequences beyond sparing her "another tedious trial scene". She had no idea that the ABD was shadowing her, something that the ABD took the time to gloat about. She had no idea what the ABD had in mind for her children. She had no idea O-Chul was alive.

Besides, the Azurites had already been the victims of genocide at the hands of Redcloak. The number of people the fleet could hold was nowhere near the number of people in Azure City at the time of its conquest, never mind the outlying territories, and we don't see enough slaves to account for the rest of the population still being alive. Any negative consequences they might suffer at the hands of Kubota pale in comparison to near-total extermination as a people.


No good came of Familicide.

The point about the BBD (Why not, let's switch it up) was simply that she would've waited for as long as necessary, V would eventually have been vulnerable. I'm not trying to argue that V foresaw and took into account all of this information before she set it in motion, simply that his actions were not universally negative or unreasonable. V didn't have the choice 'Save all of the Azurites from genocide, or save a few from Kubota' but that doesn't mean doing the latter is utterly worthless.

I wasn't referring to Familicide, I was referring to the entire series of events. I'm not really interested in arguing this particular point, but those black dragons probably caused a lot of damage and would've continued to do so, wiping them out can definitely be construed as positive.

[Kish]

I'm not really interested in arguing this particular point, but those black dragons probably caused a lot of damage and would've continued to do so, wiping them out can definitely be construed as positive.

Vaarsuvius finds him/herself at the dragon's mercy because he/she never thinks to take precautions against her, despite knowing that the dragon he/she killed shared a home with another. Vaarsuvius then repeats and amplifies this misconception when he/she casts the custom-made familicide spell, essentially speaking for all players who say, "All monsters are evil and exist only for us to kill." But hopefully when the reader sees the scale on which Vaarsuvius carries out the devastation, the error of this thinking is more obvious. If it is wrong to kill a thousand dragons simply because they are dragons, then it is wrong to kill a single dragon for the same reasons.
Also, I'm not sure what it says about fantasy roleplaying that I felt the need to make the argument against genocide. Probably best that I not think about it too much.
If you're not really interested in arguing the particular point that the horrific Xykon-level atrocity can definitely be construed as positive, then don't. Don't just assert it and expect it to be treated as valid.

[zimmerwald1915]

The point about the BBD (Why not, let's switch it up) was simply that she would've waited for as long as necessary, V would eventually have been vulnerable. I'm not trying to argue that V foresaw and took into account all of this information before she set it in motion, simply that his actions were not universally negative or unreasonable. V didn't have the choice 'Save all of the Azurites from genocide, or save a few from Kubota' but that doesn't mean doing the latter is utterly worthless.
But she did have a choice of "leave the criminal proceedings in the hands of people trained to handle them" or "decide for myself, based on what would be most convenient for me, who lives and who dies". The consequences to Azurite society for more people deciding to follow V's example are, I think, worse than a few decades of rule by Kubota. Ronjo, Shojo, and Hinjo show that the same policies won't necessarily carry over from ruler to ruler even in a hereditary monarchy. The Western Continent, on the other hand, shows that internecine warfare can carry on for generations. V, of course, doesn't care about any of this.


I wasn't referring to Familicide, I was referring to the entire series of events. I'm not really interested in arguing this particular point, but those black dragons probably caused a lot of damage and would've continued to do so, wiping them out can definitely be construed as positive.
If you're not interested in arguing the point, don't bring it up. And when you do, have some evidence to back up your claim. We see the black dragons in question, and almost all of them are alone. Of those that are not, only one is shown in the company of a non-dragon, and it is defending its home and life from people who invaded the former and want to take the latter. Your rationale is not only baseless, but as V points out, it is specious, and its speciousness was foreseeable by V in the moment.

[Auldrin]

But she did have a choice of "leave the criminal proceedings in the hands of people trained to handle them" or "decide for myself, based on what would be most convenient for me, who lives and who dies". The consequences to Azurite society for more people deciding to follow V's example are, I think, worse than a few decades of rule by Kubota. Ronjo, Shojo, and Hinjo show that the same policies won't necessarily carry over from ruler to ruler even in a hereditary monarchy. The Western Continent, on the other hand, shows that internecine warfare can carry on for generations.


If you're not interested in arguing the point, don't bring it up. And when you do, have some evidence to back up your claim. We see the black dragons in question, and almost all of them are alone. Of those that are not, only one is shown in the company of a non-dragon, and it is defending its home and life from people who invaded the former and want to take the latter. Your rationale is not only baseless, but as V points out, it is specious, and its speciousness was foreseeable by V in the moment.

Nobody *is* going to follow V's example, because nobody knows that V did it. The fall out is as simple as Kobuta no longer being a threat.

As for my daring to mention in passing a point which isn't worth an extended conversation due to being irrelevant to my overall argument, my deepest apologies.

[zimmerwald1915]

As for my daring to mention in passing a point which isn't worth an extended conversation due to being irrelevant to my overall argument, my deepest apologies.
How is it irrelevant? Remember, we're arguing about whether or not V's allowed to solve problems, and you've already accepted my basic thesis that she's sidelined whenever her actions would influence the development of either someone else's arc or the overarching plot. The specific disagreement we're having is over whether killing Kubota solved more problems than it caused, both within V's own character arc and for the overarching plot. Familicide impacts both V's character arc and the overarching plot in a major way, as the comics since strip 843 have demonstrated. Killing Kubota led V directly to the circumstances in which she cast Familicide, as the Giant points out in the Don't Split the Party commentary:


As a side note, I remember when strip #595 first premiered, some readers thought that I had gotten sick of my own plot and decided to cut it short by having Vaarsuvius come on and voice his/her frustration. Hopefully, now that the story is complete, it can be seen for what it was: another step in V's fall from grace.

So discussing it is actually terribly relevant to the larger arguments we're making, and your attempts to dismiss it just show how weak your argument is. In order to really make your argument that V's murder of Kubota was a net positive act for the overarching plot, you must, as Kish points out, defend an indefensible atrocity. For my thesis to stand, meanwhile, I only have to demonstrate that Familicide impacted the overarching plot in an overwhelmingly negative way, and I think I've done that.

[Kish]

Right, that'll work. Evil nobles can just kind of disappear, and no one will ever do anything based on it because they're all too stupid to figure out that if someone who was inconvenient to the monarch disappeared it probably wasn't the Evaporating Flu.

You "mentioned in passing" a morally horrific claim. You can be as sarcastic about it as you like, but "I'm saying this, but I don't want to defend it so don't argue with me" is still bad arguing.

[Auldrin]

How is it irrelevant? Remember, we're arguing about whether or not V's allowed to solve problems, and you've already accepted my basic thesis that she's sidelined whenever her actions would influence the development of either someone else's arc or the overarching plot. The specific disagreement we're having is over whether killing Kubota solved more problems than it caused, both within V's own character arc and for the overarching plot. Familicide impacts both V's character arc and the overarching plot in a major way, as the comics since strip 843 have demonstrated. Killing Kubota led V directly to the circumstances in which she cast Familicide, as the Giant points out in the Don't Split the Party commentary:



So discussing it is actually terribly relevant to the larger arguments we're making, and your attempts to dismiss it just show how weak your argument is. In order to really make your argument that V's murder of Kubota was a net positive act for the overarching plot, you must, as Kish points out, defend an indefensible atrocity. For my thesis to stand, meanwhile, I only have to demonstrate that Familicide impacted the overarching plot in an overwhelmingly negative way, and I think I've done that.

Actually, I've never claimed that "killing Kubota solved more problems than it caused" only that it did actually solve problems. It led to several bad things, which may outweigh the good. That doesn't make the good irrelevant. Aside from that, I'm just arguing over specific points I disagree with.

Kish, I find that better than the almost certain outcome of a trial, as depicted by Kobuta in-comic. Obviously characters aren't omniscient, but I think he was probably right. I'm aware that 'always evil isn't always evil' has been a consistent theme, but nonetheless, some of those deaths were completely warranted. See again above, wherein I say that bad events do not cancel out good events.

Edit: Oh and about the "bad" arguing. You can speculate on my motivations, of course, but it was not "I don't want to defend it" I just didn't really want to go into a side discussion about the morality of familicide, because I acknowledge that it was for the most part bad and we've already got plenty of material to talk about.

[zimmerwald1915]

Actually, I've never claimed that "killing Kubota solved more problems than it caused" only that it did actually solve problems. It led to several bad things, which may outweigh the good. That doesn't make the good irrelevant. Aside from that, I'm just arguing over specific points I disagree with.
What good? You have yet to prove that anything good, for V's character arc or for the overarching plot, came out of murdering Kubota. It set V further down a path that led to fire and darkness, a path that came back to bite the Order big-time in the main plot. It didn't really help the Azurites at all; they're still stuck in the wilderness, having to defend themselves from random monsters. It's just that those monsters don't have the [aquatic] subtype. A Kubota regime emerging from a trial for treason is by no means a given, as Kubota himself admits, so you can't claim that avoiding one is a positive good that came from murdering him. In the meantime, you're stuck defending the indefensible.


Kish, I find that better than the almost certain outcome of a trial, as depicted by Kobuta in-comic. Obviously characters aren't omniscient, but I think he was probably right. I'm aware that 'always evil isn't always evil' has been a consistent theme, but nonetheless, some of those deaths were completely warranted. See again above, wherein I say that bad events do not cancel out good events.
Look at the context of the scene. Kubota's toying with Elan by claiming to have outmaneuvered him politically. Elan does not have a political brain, is questioning his own righteousness in the aftermath of Therkla's death, and as he points out, is a key witness against Kubota (he can, incidentally, tell the magistrate about Kubota's ability to fool magical lie detection and thus put a real damper on Kubota's credibility). He's a perfect target for Kubota's head games.


Edit: Oh and about the "bad" arguing. You can speculate on my motivations, of course, but it was not "I don't want to defend it" I just didn't really want to go into a side discussion about the morality of familicide, because I acknowledge that it was for the most part bad and we've already got plenty of material to talk about.
It was totally bad. There is nothing good about murdering innocent people.

[Auldrin]

What good? You have yet to prove that anything good, for V's character arc or for the overarching plot, came out of murdering Kubota. It set V further down a path that led to fire and darkness, a path that came back to bite the Order big-time in the main plot. It didn't really help the Azurites at all; they're still stuck in the wilderness, having to defend themselves from random monsters. It's just that those monsters don't have the [aquatic] subtype. A Kubota regime emerging from a trial for treason is by no means a given, as Kubota himself admits, so you can't claim that avoiding one is a positive good that came from murdering him. In the meantime, you're stuck defending the indefensible.


Look at the context of the scene. Kubota's toying with Elan by claiming to have outmaneuvered him politically. Elan does not have a political brain, is questioning his own righteousness in the aftermath of Therkla's death, and as he points out, is a key witness against Kubota (he can, incidentally, tell the magistrate about Kubota's ability to fool magical lie detection and thus put a real damper on Kubota's credibility). He's a perfect target for Kubota's head games.


It was totally bad. There is nothing good about murdering innocent people.

You're still talking about the plot and V's arc, I am not and never have been. The Azurites were looking for a new place to live, they got one. Why would the magistrate trust Elan over Kobuta?

So your argument is that every single black dragon/descendant that was killed by familicide, MUST have been innocent?

Kill five good dragons for every black dragon that died today. You can insist on looking at the exact defined meaning of the sentence and ignoring subtext, but it heavily implies that both Tiamat and her spawn are at best neutral. More likely evil. Sure, not all of them are, but SOME are.

[Kish]

So your argument is that every single black dragon/descendant that was killed by familicide, MUST have been innocent?
By definition, yes, they were not guilty of anything you know of (and no, "They were black dragons so I'm sure they blah-blah speculative crap" doesn't count for anything except an illustration of having spectacularly missed or dodged the point Rich was trying to make with that scene and the whole plot arc and the whole story of OotS), so they were innocent.

[zimmerwald1915]

You're still talking about the plot and V's arc, I am not and never have been. The Azurites were looking for a new place to live, they got one. Why would the magistrate trust Elan over Kobuta?
The magistrate is...a magistrate. They're trained to handle criminal procedure, and to weigh evidence impartially. This particular magistrate might be corrupt, but there's no evidence of that. The only thing the magistrate's ever done is prevent Hinjo from bringing a case against Kubota, which could mean any number of things. It could mean he's biased in Kubota's favor, but Hinjo gives no indication he believes that's the case. Instead, Hinjo believes the magistrate blocked his bringing a case because he didn't have any probable cause, something real judges do often enough that this magistrate's behavior is credible.

Elan can present his testimony - verified by magical lie detection no less - that Kubota informed him that he, Kubota, could fool magical lie detection. That fact alone puts a damper on Kubota's credibility, since why would he investigate the possibility of fooling magical lie detection if he didn't plan on fooling magical lie detection? Does that testimony alone prove Kubota's guilt? Hardly. But it's not Elan's whole case, and it does throw into doubt any story Kubota might tell in his defense. What might the rest of the case consist of? Well, consider that Kubota would be on trial for treason, for his attempts on Hinjo's and the Katos' lives. So Durkon might cast speak with dead on Therkla and ask "were you ever given orders to kill Hinjo?" or "did Daimyo Kubota ever discuss his plans for Hinjo?" The Katos would both tell the same story of how Kubota's ninja broke into their cabin and attacked them, and then how his samurai held them hostage. Elan would corroborate their story. Had V not disintegrated Kubota, his ring and armor would bear physical evidence that would corroborate Elan's and the Katos' story. The evidence against him was not trivial, and should not be dismissed out of hand. That Kubota did so speaks more to his attempt to intimidate Elan than to the real truth of the situation.

As for a place to live, they're still in need of that. At the moment they're squatters on someone else's territory, and that territory isn't exactly safe. The one time we've seen it up close, Hinjo was leading his soldiers into battle against the natives. What's more, they don't plan to stay and colonize this unsafe wilderness dotted with ruins, but to build up their forces for a later attempt to retake Azure City.


So your argument is that every single black dragon/descendant that was killed by familicide, MUST have been innocent?
When I've actually had the familicide argument, my position has always been that the morality and actions of the victims don't matter. Mass murder is just that wrong.


Kill five good dragons for every black dragon that died today. You can insist on looking at the exact defined meaning of the sentence and ignoring subtext, but it heavily implies that both Tiamat and her spawn are at best neutral. More likely evil. Sure, not all of them are, but SOME are.
So?

[Silverionmox]

In D&D canon (and the oots-verse too) dragons are color-coded for your convenience. Even paladins acknowledge that creatures with an evil alignment are fair game for deletion (and actively pursue eg. exterminations of goblins). So V could reasonably assume that killing a bunch of evil dragons wouldn't be evil - it's just what good characters do all the time, but merely more efficient.

It's just when he grasps the implications of the fact that dragons don't only have dragon offspring, that he realizes what he has done. So it's not murder, but at most manslaughter, albeit mass manslaughter. Even then, a significant part of these people will have been evil, killing them would only count as a good act in the cosmic balance of d&d alignment.

So what you can shove V in the shoes is gloating, cruelty, revenge and severe negligence of the wellbeing of innocent bystanders. But murder? No.

[hamishspence]

In D&D canon (and the oots-verse too) dragons are color-coded for your convenience. Even paladins acknowledge that creatures with an evil alignment are fair game for deletion (and actively pursue eg. exterminations of goblins). So V could reasonably assume that killing a bunch of evil dragons wouldn't be evil - it's just what good characters do all the time, but merely more efficient.

It's just when he grasps the implications of the fact that dragons don't only have dragon offspring, that he realizes what he has done. So it's not murder, but at most manslaughter, albeit mass manslaughter. Even then, a significant part of these people will have been evil, killing them would only count as a good act in the cosmic balance of d&d alignment.

So what you can shove V in the shoes is gloating, cruelty, revenge and severe negligence of the wellbeing of innocent bystanders. But murder? No.

V intended to kill the black dragon's entire family- and that is precisely what V did.

Realising afterward the implications, doesn't change that fact that this was what V's original intentions were.

So, yes, murder.

Alignment does not work on a "cosmic balance" principle of
"If I murder 10 Evil people and 1 Good person, that murder was a Good act."

It works on a "murder is an evil act, no matter how deserving the victims were" principle.

And the fiends know it. Hence Qaar's description of V as "History's worst mass-murderer"

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0883.html

[Kish]

Even paladins acknowledge that creatures with an evil alignment are fair game for [murder]

You mean, even Miko, model of logic, reason and tolerance, role model for everyone who aspires to be as good as possible? Or do you mean...


(and actively pursue eg. exterminations of goblins).

...some ex-paladins who Fell during Start of Darkness?


Even then, a significant part of these people will have been evil, killing them would only count as a good act in the cosmic balance of d&d alignment.
Why do people insist on lecturing on D&D alignment without ever reading the Player's Handbook section on alignment? Why, why, why?

[Rakoa]

Why do people insist on lecturing on D&D alignment without ever reading the Player's Handbook section on alignment? Why, why, why?

I think that despite the mess 3.5 is with balance and all that, the alignment system is probably one of the most detailed, in-depth and interesting things about it. But people have such a poor understanding of what the alignment system entails that it gets a bad reputation, with people going off on what it is to be Good, Evil, Chaotic Neutral or what have you without having any real understanding of those terms in the context of the D&D world.

[hamishspence]

V also calls it murder rather than manslaughter:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html


I think that despite the mess 3.5 is with balance and all that, the alignment system is probably one of the most detailed, in-depth and interesting things about it. But people have such a poor understanding of what the alignment system entails that it gets a bad reputation, with people going off on what it is to be Good, Evil, Chaotic Neutral or what have you without having any real understanding of those terms in the context of the D&D world.

Agreed.

[Eric Tolle]

Whether Kubota could be proven guilty or not, V's disintegrate DID spare us a lengthy sequence of comics covering the trial. Sometimes you have to look at the greater good.

[veti]

When I've actually had the familicide argument, my position has always been that the morality and actions of the victims don't matter. Mass murder is just that wrong.

Are you okay with the mass extermination of, e.g., disease-carrying insects? Mosquitoes, fleas, bacteria?

How about vermin? Rats are quite intelligent, and you can't easily tell whether one is carrying plague, but collectively they can commit genocide on human populations. Is it okay to kill rats on sight? And would it make any difference to your answer if you knew rats were highly intelligent, but not interested in communicating with us?

Where exactly is the line between an act of public hygiene and mass murder?

Imagine you're a mid-level LG character, and you see a couple of illithids, dressed as clowns, entering a (human) orphanage. Do you shrug and say "they're sentient beings, I've no proof that they're up to anything wrong, it's no different from a couple of gnomes going in there"? Or do you say "Hey, you! What are you doing in there?"

And that's the case for racism, or at least speciesism, in D&D. It's not real life. All sentient species are not the same.

[hamishspence]

How about vermin? Rats are quite intelligent, and you can't easily tell whether one is carrying plague, but collectively they can commit genocide on human populations. Is it okay to kill rats on sight?

A case could be made that it depends on where you are. Rats in the wild, in their home range, are part of the ecosystem- killing them "on sight" is no different from killing any other animal "on sight".

And in this case, many of the dragons V killed were "in the wild, in their home territory".

[Rakoa]

A case could be made that it depends on where you are. Rats in the wild, in their home range, are part of the ecosystem- killing them "on sight" is no different from killing any other animal "on sight".

And in this case, many of the dragons V killed were "in the wild, in their home territory".

...or, in fact, not even dragons but distant relatives thereof. The analogy falls apart when you realize that it isn't just dragons (or rats) being killed, but anyone who is descended from the dragon. To continue the analogy, it would be like exterminating anyone who had touched or been bitten by a rat and anybody that this person associated with, whether or not they contracted plague or if the rat even had it in the first place.

[zimmerwald1915]

Are you okay with the mass extermination of, e.g., disease-carrying insects? Mosquitoes, fleas, bacteria?

How about vermin? Rats are quite intelligent, and you can't easily tell whether one is carrying plague, but collectively they can commit genocide on human populations. Is it okay to kill rats on sight? And would it make any difference to your answer if you knew rats were highly intelligent, but not interested in communicating with us?

Where exactly is the line between an act of public hygiene and mass murder?

Given that all attempts at extermination of these species were failures, while the extermination of peoples is something that happens depressingly often, I'm not sure the analogy is valid.


Imagine you're a mid-level LG character, and you see a couple of illithids, dressed as clowns, entering a (human) orphanage. Do you shrug and say "they're sentient beings, I've no proof that they're up to anything wrong, it's no different from a couple of gnomes going in there"? Or do you say "Hey, you! What are you doing in there?"
What gives me the right to go up to a stranger on the street and threaten them? Being level 10? Being lawful good? In any case, I'd probably try to talk with the administration and see if they'd hired clowns for today, as any random adults going into an orphanage had better have business there.


And that's the case for racism, or at least speciesism, in D&D. It's not real life. All sentient species are not the same.
They're close enough for their lives to have value.

[veti]

Given that all attempts at extermination of these species were failures, while the extermination of peoples is something that happens depressingly often, I'm not sure the analogy is valid.

Not really. Lots of swamps have been drained to kill the local populations of mosquitoes - meaning that several million humans, worldwide, are much less likely to catch a debilitating and life-threatening disease. Plenty of diseases have been either eradicated completely (smallpox), or reduced to a tiny fraction of their earlier threat level (plague, cholera, typhus, tuberculosis). Each of those represents an organism that's basically as close to extinct as we can make it.


What gives me the right to go up to a stranger on the street and threaten them? Being level 10? Being lawful good?

How about "being the only person in the town who's physically capable of doing anything about them, if they are up to no good"? Doesn't that impose some level of responsibility?


In any case, I'd probably try to talk with the administration and see if they'd hired clowns for today, as any random adults going into an orphanage had better have business there.

Ah, right - so you do have the right to snoop into other people's business. Of course, by the time you talk to "the administration" you've no way of knowing whether the illithids are mind-controlling them. But at least you've done your duty.


They're close enough for their lives to have value.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't really answer anything. Rats' lives have "value" (see hamishspence's answer, above). That doesn't, in itself, mean that we should refrain from killing them.

[hamishspence]

I think there's a general principle in D&D (or at least, BoED) that sapient lives, in general, have quite a lot of value. Hence, going to some level to be "satisfied beyond reasonable doubt" that a particular act of violence is necessary, before committing it.

[Silverionmox]

V intended to kill the black dragon's entire family- and that is precisely what V did.

Realising afterward the implications, doesn't change that fact that this was what V's original intentions were.

So, yes, murder.No, manslaughter. It's debatable which kind exactly, but definitely manslaughter. V thought of the black dragon's family as black dragons, which Miko, while on duty as a paladin, explicitly recognized as being a legal target for killing. Paladins don't run around Detecting Evil for fun: they do it so they can kill with a clear conscience.
V didn't realized that he would also kill a number of humans, that's why he freaked out suddenly upon viewing the family tree.


Alignment does not work on a "cosmic balance" principle of
"If I murder 10 Evil people and 1 Good person, that murder was a Good act."
It works on a "murder is an evil act, no matter how deserving the victims were" principle.Let's establish whether it's murder or not first.


And the fiends know it. Hence Qaar's description of V as "History's worst mass-murderer"Yeah, sure, you can trust the fiends... Qarr is going for the silver medal, mortal misery, by rubbing it in the right way (which Z wasn't doing adequately in the arena, as Qarr complained to Sabine).


You mean, even Miko, model of logic, reason and tolerance, role model for everyone who aspires to be as good as possible? Or do you mean...

...some ex-paladins who Fell during Start of Darkness?All of these remained paladins while committing these acts.


Why do people insist on lecturing on D&D alignment without ever reading the Player's Handbook section on alignment? Why, why, why?Because all you need is to follow the internal logic of the world. Miko tried often enough to get a good Detect Evil on Belkar, because knowing his alignment was evil would suffice to allow her to proceed to execution without worrying about her aligment grade.

V, likewise, assumed that her targets were evil and therefore ok to kill. That's even a higher standard than he, as someone of neutral alignment, should adhere to. Like he said, it's like throwing a fireball in a marketplace to catch some thieves. If only the thieves were present, there would have been no problem at all, and that was what V assumed at first. Of course you can expect people in a marketplace, and with great power comes great responsibility, but you can't make much more of it than criminally negligent manslaughter or something like it.

[hamishspence]

Paladins don't run around Detecting Evil for fun: they do it so they can kill with a clear conscience.

Actually "detects as evil" doesn't mean "you can kill it with a clear conscience". At least, not according to books like BoED, Eberron Campaign Setting, Heroes of Horror, etc.

As Miko pointed out- Roy detected as Evil. Yet she was still obliged to give him a chance to surrender first.

[Kish]

Because all you need is to follow the internal logic of the world.
And if your assertions ("All of them remained paladins") are contradicting the author's assertions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=8081896&postcount=21)? That's probably something you're failing at doing.

[hamishspence]

Let's establish whether it's murder or not first.

V calls it murder:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0843.html

Shouldn't we be getting back to the topic of how the Order are going to cope with what's coming though?

[Chessgeek]

Shouldn't we be getting back to the topic of how the Order are going to cope with what's coming though?

It has arrived! (dun dun DUN!)

[Onyavar]

Back to the question - how is the Order expected to survive with Xykon just walking towards them?

Attack? Flee? Talk?

I guess Roy would be resolved enough to attack even when surprised this much. Just now, fleeing means to increase the distance between him and Xykon, allowing him to Meteor-sniping the party from distance.
Talking with Xykon could be the survival technique, though.

Also: Note that Xykon might not have found the gate yet and is coming OUT of the place where the order suspected the gate to be.

[Velaryon]

I don't think it has any bearing on what's about to happen, but I think it's worth noting that Xykon actually recognized Roy this time.

[Domino Quartz]

Back to the question - how is the Order expected to survive with Xykon just walking towards them?


From here, it looks to me like they're pretty screwed. I'm not sure how they'll get out of this one.

[Felhammer]

The Order is so screwed right now.

Their best bet is to...

:elan: Bluff Bluff Bluff the Big Bad Evil Lich!

[CloakedDancer]

I don't think it has any bearing on what's about to happen, but I think it's worth noting that Xykon actually recognized Roy this time.

I honestly found that to be the most interesting thing about 885.

[TRH]

I honestly found that to be the most interesting thing about 885.

Third Gate in a row this random angry guy has been standing in his way - from Xykon's POV, it's getting damn repetitive. Considering the difference in power, Roy's like some random fly that he thought he had swatted a while back, but just doesn't go away.

[Mage Paradox]

Feel pretty sure it's an illusion, not really Xykon.

I do think killing Kubota was a net positive, but I'm talking about it in terms of utilitarianism/justice, etc, not in the sense of "did it help V's character growth?", I could care less about that aspect of it.

[Xenrei]

Huh. You know, there was tons of speculation and guesses about this, but I never thought that Xykon would really appear. Colour me wrong. :smalltongue:

[Olinser]

From here, it looks to me like they're pretty screwed. I'm not sure how they'll get out of this one.

Xykon pops some smartass question like, "What's up Craterhilt. You gained 7 or 8 levels yet?" :smallyuk:

Roy, "No." :smallfrown:

Xykon, "Eh, whatever, come back when you're ready for a shot at the title. I'm off to subjugate the Gate." :smallcool:

[Silverionmox]

Actually "detects as evil" doesn't mean "you can kill it with a clear conscience". At least, not according to books like BoED, Eberron Campaign Setting, Heroes of Horror, etc.

Then creating a magic item or casting a spell that makes Bad Things happen to evil aligned creatures is also evil, because they might damage evil creatures not currently committing any evil. So, when a good deity gives a +2 sword of holy smiting to someone? An evil act.

Obviously that's nonsense, but the nonsense stems from needing to justify an absolute alignment system. The alternative is watering down the absolutes, like you're doing: orcs are evil, but not very evil. Cut them some slack. It's obviously a nightmare in a non-computer game to make evilness a sliding scale from -100 to 100 and adjust all magical effects accordingly.

So, bottom line: the d&d alignment system deals in absolutes. Start to nuance it and the mechanics stop making sense.


As Miko pointed out- Roy detected as Evil. Yet she was still obliged to give him a chance to surrender first.
The obligation to offer a chance of surrendering is due to paladin lawfulness, not due to goodness.


V calls it murder:V is guilt-tripping. Kubota, that was murder. V perfectly knew what he was doing then: killing a defenseless man on the way to his trial, just for convenience. He was genuinely shocked when realizing his familycide would have killed humans too. So manslaughter, as I've argued more expansively. Not disputing that it was an evil act, though.


And if your assertions ("All of them remained paladins") are contradicting the author's assertions? That's probably something you're failing at doing.
The author conveniently summarizes his post at the bottom:
(Oh, and I leave it up to the readers to form their own opinions on which paladins may have Fallen and which didn't.) That's a wise decision, since the only conclusion of it can be that the alignment rules and effects as written in D&D are inconsistent: originally intended as black and white for remorseless killing, but later on they tried to latch on some nuancing for storytelling purposes while maintaining magic effects etc.

[zimmerwald1915]

V is guilt-tripping. Kubota, that was murder. V perfectly knew what he was doing then: killing a defenseless man on the way to his trial, just for convenience. He was genuinely shocked when realizing his familycide would have killed humans too. So manslaughter, as I've argued more expansively. Not disputing that it was an evil act, though.
Criminal negligence for the lives of others makes it murder. V only applied that criminal negligence to the humans though: her murder of the dragons was deliberate and intentional.

[Fish]

I'll place my money down here: the runes act against spell-casters only.

Rich has gone out of his way to set up, and to point out, that the Order has virtually no magic. The Linear Guild has only magic.
1. Durkon has been turned into a vampire under Malack's control.
2. Malack, Nale, and Zz'dtri are all casters.
3. The kobold ranger has been eliminated.
4. The rogue succubus has been banished.
5. V is absent.
6. Roy forbade Elan to use bard song.
7. Elan "doesn't count" as a spellcaster.
8. The runes didn't do anything to the party... yet.
9. Tarquin excused himself, taking Kilkil.
10. Even Thog is MIA.

Now Xykon and Redcloak, who are both casters, are here.

The hallway was guarded by a door of runes that activated in magenta. It's the same color of Girard's own magic, as he was casting the illusion to hide the Gate.

Who were Girard's enemies? A wizard, a druid, and a paladin. Who was his friend? Serini (whom we presume is a thief).

Therefore, I presume the hall was designed to shield against the people Girard most feared... and permit the kind of spellcaster (illusions) he most trusted. Therefore, "Elan doesn't count."

That's my two cents.

[Kish]

Then creating a magic item or casting a spell that makes Bad Things happen to evil aligned creatures is also evil, because they might damage evil creatures not currently committing any evil.

Watch the middle disappear. Either every evil creature is fair game, or hurting any creature ever for any reason is wrong.


So, bottom line: the d&d alignment system deals in absolutes. Start to nuance it and the mechanics stop making sense.

Why do people insist on lecturing on D&D alignment without ever reading the Player's Handbook section on alignment? Why, why, why?

(I wonder if you'll respond to this with another inaccurate statement about OotS rather than D&D. Round and round we go.)

[Fish]

I am developing a forum add-on that automatically puts dead-horse nerd wars into a tiny, invisible font. At present it needs some tweaking, because I can still see the familicide argument going on. I am seeking beta testers. Who would like to help develop this important Internet tool?

[Silverionmox]

Criminal negligence for the lives of others makes it murder.No, manslaughter.

V only applied that criminal negligence to the humans though: her murder of the dragons was deliberate and intentional.It was also justified as a defensive measure to prevent further revenge killings. He did have way too much fun doing it though.

You'll likely disagree, and that's the reason why d&d chose absolute alignments at all: to prevent drawn out moral debates and get on with the game.


Watch the middle disappear.Watch my further explanation disappear, apparently. I already answered that, read my last comment.


Why do people insist on lecturing on D&D alignment without ever reading the Player's Handbook section on alignment? Why, why, why?Do quote the relevant passage, if you insist on lecturing other people. Do yo mean "The three evil alignments are for monsters and villains"? Or "a paladin who fights evil without mercy"? Or "a ranger who waylays the evil baron's tax collectors is good"?


(I wonder if you'll respond to this with another inaccurate statement about OotS rather than D&D. Round and round we go.)Disagreement about interpretation is not inaccuracy.

[zimmerwald1915]

No, manslaughter.
You are wrong. Here is what manslaughter means:

The unjustifiable, inexcusable, and intentional killing of a human being without deliberation, premeditation, and malice. The unlawful killing of a human being without any deliberation, which may be involuntary, in the commission of a lawful act without due caution and circumspection.

For there to be manslaughter none of the three factors in bold may be present. To go beyond manslaughter and into murder, I have to prove only that one factor was present, and I think it's pretty clear that deliberation was present. V resuscitated the dragon as an undead in order to cast Familicide, stating "I am not yet done with the dragon". Thus she planned to cast Familicide well before "pulling the trigger" as it were. It was no crime of passion.

For comparison, here's second degree murder:

a non-premeditated killing, resulting from an assault in which death of the victim was a distinct possibility. Second degree murder is different from First Degree Murder which is a premeditated, intentional killing, or results from a vicious crime such as arson, rape, or armed robbery.

It is possible to commit murder via criminal negligence, while the hallmark of manslaughter is recklessness. In most cases, absent an admission of negligence on the part of the perpetrator, it is very difficult to draw a bright line between recklessness, which implies ignorance of the consequences of one's actions, and negligence, which implies knowledge of, but disregard for, the consequences of one's actions. Fortunately, V was kind enough to make that admission of negligence.


Blackwing Wow...OK...well, you couldn't have known -
Vaarsuvius Could I not have? The propensity for both dragons and humans to breed outside their species is well-documented. I am as guilty as if I had cast a fireball into a crowded market square to catch a pickpocket!

If you were defending Vaarsuvius, and I prosecuting, we might strike a plea bargain on the basis of manslaughter, not that it would matter much to the eventual time served given the vast number of counts. If it went before a jury? They'd better find murder 2 at least.


It was also justified as a defensive measure to prevent further revenge killings. He did have way too much fun doing it though.
It was also justified as a means of torturing the dragon. Can we pick which one is more valid? Possibly. Does it matter much? Not really.


You'll likely disagree, and that's the reason why d&d chose absolute alignments at all: to prevent drawn out moral debates and get on with the game.
Funny that WotC didn't write the 3.5 alignments black and white, and released supplements after the Player's Handbook came out further greying the issue. I know you'd like to interpret the alignments as being black and white, but that is only your interpretation. Trying to hide behind authorial intent, especially when it is clearly not there, is just intellectually dishonest.

[Belkar<3]

a druid


It was never specifically stated that Lirian had any quarrels with Girard, not that I disagree with your comment. Lirian seems more of the peaceful type.

_________

My thoughts on the Xykon thing. The thing is, Girard is obviously an illusionist. There are runes on the wall, giving the possibility of a fear illusion, which would give OOTS the illusion the Xykon is there. The problem is, Redcloak has not been fully shown on the panel yet, so we can't se whether or not he has his eyepatch. This will probably change next comic.

If we can see his eyepatch, then the OOTS is screwed. Period. 100%.

If not, then that will prove that that TE is a illusion, most likely provided by Girard. How the OOTS will react to it (They wouldn't know it would be a illusion.) is up to Rich.

[It would be an illusion if Redcloak didn't have his eyepatch, because Roy doesn't know about it.]

I think there is a 80% chance of illusion TE , 15% chance of real TE, and 5% of something I haven't thought of.

[Olinser]

It was never specifically stated that Lirian had any quarrels with Girard, not that I disagree with your comment. Lirian seems more of the peaceful type.

_________

My thoughts on the Xykon thing. The thing is, Girard is obviously an illusionist. There are runes on the wall, giving the possibility of a fear illusion, which would give OOTS the illusion the Xykon is there. The problem is, Redcloak has not been fully shown on the panel yet, so we can't se whether or not he has his eyepatch. This will probably change next comic.

If we can see his eyepatch, then the OOTS is screwed. Period. 100%.

If not, then that will prove that that TE is a illusion, most likely provided by Girard. How the OOTS will react to it (They wouldn't know it would be a illusion.) is up to Rich.

[It would be an illusion if Redcloak didn't have his eyepatch, because Roy doesn't know about it.]

I think there is a 80% chance of illusion TE , 15% chance of real TE, and 5% of something I haven't thought of.

I also think it's a big stretch to put Dorukan on that list as well.

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html

Both Dorukan and Girard clearly had a huge beef with Soon, and I really got the impression that the fight that was about to start was going to be Dorukan/Girard vs Soon.

HOWEVER, I agree that the runes are most likely going to zap anybody casting a spell that isn't a Draketooth (or possibly without saying a passcode - which Girard may have given Dorukan and Lirian).

[veti]

You are wrong. Here is what manslaughter means:

The unjustifiable, inexcusable, and intentional killing of a human being without deliberation, premeditation, and malice. The unlawful killing of a human being without any deliberation, which may be involuntary, in the commission of a lawful act without due caution and circumspection.

For there to be manslaughter none of the three factors in bold may be present. To go beyond manslaughter and into murder, I have to prove only that one factor was present, and I think it's pretty clear that deliberation was present.

OR, you could just go with the alternative definition, which you quoted but didn't emphasise: "The unlawful killing of a human being without any deliberation, which may be involuntary, in the commission of a lawful act without due caution and circumspection." I think that describes the case pretty well. (Provided you see mass killing of black dragons as "a lawful act", of course, which is highly questionable but at least debatable.)


Funny that WotC didn't write the 3.5 alignments black and white, and released supplements after the Player's Handbook came out further greying the issue. I know you'd like to interpret the alignments as being black and white, but that is only your interpretation. Trying to hide behind authorial intent, especially when it is clearly not there, is just intellectually dishonest.

I don't see that as "trying to hide behind authorial intent", so much as arguing that "the authors didn't necessarily think this through, or if they did, they certainly didn't show their work."

Alignment was originally included because D&D began life as a wargame, and you needed to know who was on your side. The game has come a long way since then, and it's perfectly valid to question why this element has been kept all this time.

[zimmerwald1915]

OR, you could just go with the alternative definition, which you quoted but didn't emphasise: "The unlawful killing of a human being without any deliberation, which may be involuntary, in the commission of a lawful act without due caution and circumspection." I think that describes the case pretty well. (Provided you see mass killing of black dragons as "a lawful act", of course, which is highly questionable but at least debatable.)
You missed the "without any deliberation" in your preferred definition. As I pointed out, Vaarsuvius did act with deliberation.

[Silverionmox]

You are wrong. Blah blah blahIf you're just going to restate your arguments more elaborately, I'm going to leave it at that, because:


Funny that WotC didn't write the 3.5 alignments black and white, and released supplements after the Player's Handbook came out further greying the issue. I know you'd like to interpret the alignments as being black and white, but that is only your interpretation. Trying to hide behind authorial intent, especially when it is clearly not there, is just intellectually dishonest.I don't need to speculate about authorial intent. It's a fact that the alignment system stems from before a time when proficiency slots were considered the bee's knees in character building. It's just a slightly more complicated version of the black and white pieces in chess. If you want to try to put more nuance in d&d, feel free, but the rules are working against it. Holy Word borks every character who is wearing a Team Evil shirt, whether it's an ancient lich plotting world enslavement or Grumpy the Goofy Goblin who just needs some affection. As long as they don't put their modifiers where their mouth is, I'm going to assume the d&d world runs on nine discrete alignments for all intents and purposes, no matter how hard they try to satisfy different markets by adding fluff that the average d&d'er will squarely ignore.

[hamishspence]

Holy Word borks every character who is wearing a Team Evil shirt, whether it's an ancient lich plotting world enslavement or Grumpy the Goofy Goblin who just needs some affection.

It also does considerable damage to everyone "wearing a Team Neutral shirt"- just not as much.

[Belkar<3]

GUYS

You do know that if we continue off topic, then Rich will close this thread. I don't really care about manslaughter or murder. The point of this thread was to weigh the chances of the OOTS against TE, TT, and LG. Leave V for another thread. You can create one, you know.

[hamishspence]

Can't see them doing well against Xykon. Even with them at full strength it would have been difficult.

Maybe they should out-think him rather than fight him.

[King of Nowhere]

I'll place my money down here: the runes act against spell-casters only.

Rich has gone out of his way to set up, and to point out, that the Order has virtually no magic. The Linear Guild has only magic.
1. Durkon has been turned into a vampire under Malack's control.
2. Malack, Nale, and Zz'dtri are all casters.
3. The kobold ranger has been eliminated.
4. The rogue succubus has been banished.
5. V is absent.
6. Roy forbade Elan to use bard song.
7. Elan "doesn't count" as a spellcaster.
8. The runes didn't do anything to the party... yet.
9. Tarquin excused himself, taking Kilkil.
10. Even Thog is MIA.

Now Xykon and Redcloak, who are both casters, are here.

The hallway was guarded by a door of runes that activated in magenta. It's the same color of Girard's own magic, as he was casting the illusion to hide the Gate.

Who were Girard's enemies? A wizard, a druid, and a paladin. Who was his friend? Serini (whom we presume is a thief).

Therefore, I presume the hall was designed to shield against the people Girard most feared... and permit the kind of spellcaster (illusions) he most trusted. Therefore, "Elan doesn't count."

That's my two cents.

I think you got it. Haley referencing the runes makes so much more sense now: the oots has been walking in rune-filled places for ages, and they were always assumed to be part of the background. drawing attention to the runes could be deliberate to set this off.
It also would be in line with oots aesop (casters aren't the answer to everything). And it's my favourite way to balance spellcasters: since they are clearly so powerful people would devote more resouces to counter them.

[Olinser]

Can't see them doing well against Xykon. Even with them at full strength it would have been difficult.

Maybe they should out-think him rather than fight him.

Eh, it's Xykon. His ADD is going to kick in. He was perfectly willing to let Roy walk away from the Azure City fight until he was high enough to entertain him.

Given that there are really only 2 there (Haley and Roy), that could do anything against him, I don't think he's going to bother fighting them, unless Roy is dumb enough to force the issue.

I fully expect Xykon to open with what I said in my previous post, OR for Nale to suddenly walk in from the left, and Roy quietly edges away from them.

After all, uppity minions is something Xykon will not tolerate.

[Fish]

I also think it's a big stretch to put Dorukan on that list as well [as Lirian].
Dorukan didn't have much against Soon, if the runes could only be operated by someone of pure heart... unless for some reason, Dorukan had reason to think this excluded Soon and everyone who might obey Soon. Had Girard allied with either of them, would he not have gone off on his own? They could have made a team effort -- the magic of 3 casters guarding 3 Gates, and maybe Sirini's/Kraagor's too, Soon on the other. No, they all split up five ways. It was irreconcilable.

But the idea that Girard feared and suspected everyone, including Lirian and Dorukan, is not really the point. The main point is that it's carefully been orchestrated to be spellcasters vs non. Coincidence? I doubt it.

P.S. Familicide Familicide Familicide blah blah blah blah nerd flailing Familicide Familicide Familicide blah blah blah blah Familicide evil blah blah Familicide Familicide Familicide blah blah blah blah blah you're wrong because I say so blah nerd flailing Familicide Familicide Familicide blah blah blah blah Familicide Familicide Vaarsuvius blah blah let me quote a dictionary Familicide Familicide Familicide blah blah blah blah nerd flailing Familicide Familicide Familicide murder my D&D nerd powers exceed yours blah blah are we in the right thread? who cares blah blah blah blah Familicide evil blah blah Familicide Familicide Familicide.

[David Argall]

Can't see them doing well against Xykon. Even with them at full strength it would have been difficult.

Maybe they should out-think him rather than fight him.

Unless the Giant gets tired of doing the comic, we have a gate and 2[+] books to go. A middle book often has a " worse off than before" ending, and almost never has the elimination of the big bad. So this book will end soon with some wild stuff, but not with the party triumphant, unless you call surviving a big victory. What will happen is that the party will get sent on to the next scene, probably the Snarl's world.
My guess. All parties will gather at the Gate, more or less peacefully, at which point wild stuff happens. Nobody notices Belker [who is fated to bite it very soon] crawling towards the emergency switch, which he pulls for good or bad reason. All parties get ejected into the Snarl's world where they must race to find the other side of the final gate. It will take them about a book or so to find it and get thru, possibly because the gate only blocks the Snarl, not mere mortals. Relatively few of the evil with be eliminated this book, or next, tho we have seen a lot of the lesser evils get knocked off and should expect more such events.

[ti'esar]

P.S. Familicide Familicide Familicide blah blah blah blah nerd flailing Familicide Familicide Familicide blah blah blah blah Familicide evil blah blah Familicide Familicide Familicide blah blah blah blah blah you're wrong because I say so blah nerd flailing Familicide Familicide Familicide blah blah blah blah Familicide Familicide Vaarsuvius blah blah let me quote a dictionary Familicide Familicide Familicide blah blah blah blah nerd flailing Familicide Familicide Familicide murder my D&D nerd powers exceed yours blah blah are we in the right thread? who cares blah blah blah blah Familicide evil blah blah Familicide Familicide Familicide.

Show's over, folks, everyone go home.

[ZarDaranth]

(I'm so glad that I was right about Qarr deciding to get V into action, but it was like saying the sun was going to rise after a long night, in my opinion.)

From here, I'd say that the runes on the wall are a sort of Chekov's gun, making it so that any Good or Evil casters are hit with illusions if they decide to cast spells within X yards of them. (The anti-good is another "Screw You, Soon's Goons" type effect, the anti-evil is protection for the gate). Xykon and Redcloak have gotten horribly lost within the pyramid because they entered it via teleportation, likely getting smacked with illusions right from the getgo (but MitD is immune due to being neutral, constantly muttering that the two keep going in circles, like it's on purpose).

X/RC try to fight the Order, but it becomes apparent that spellcasting causes illusions, so the Order tries to retreat, getting trapped by the Linear Guild behind them. As the Guild meets Team Evil, Xykon remembers Nale by name, much to Roy's ire. As Nale tries to sway Xykon to let him kill the Order, and possibly save X some spell slots, V passes through the wall and meets up with the Order. Xykon, recognizing the elf that made him lose his phylactery, scoffs at any deal, and five puddles of goo are his to make to pay for the two puddles of goo that he couldn't make back in Azure City.

Enter Team Tarquin. He's brought in all of his adventuring buddies, and an army from the Empire of Blood. Tarquin intervenes on behalf of Elan and the Order right as Xykon readies a meteor swarm, stating that anything in this part of the world belongs to Tarquin's team. Tarquin has no problem sending in thousands of troops to wear down Xykon, and there's no way that the long gate controlling ritual can be completed with that kind of military pressure on Xykon/Redcloak's heads.

Redcloak, realizing that this gate is lost, tries to get Xykon to teleport out of there, knowing full well that it would be nearly impossible for anyone to intervene at Kraagor's Gate, given that all of the possible interruptors (cut to Lien and O-Chul arriving at the border of the dungeon containing Kraagor's Gate) are here instead. Xykon agrees, but makes a last minute speech informing Tarquin that he's just a sack of meat like any other, that Tarquin will die someday, and his army can't be stationed at the temple forever. When that time comes, Team Evil will get the gate. And like that, Team Evil teleports out.

Tarquin orders his troops out, as well as the Linear Guild. As he begins to gloat over his victory, he notices that Elan isn't there. Belkar points out that Elan is running towards the Order and Tarquin. Elan is crying, claiming that he didn't mean to do it again. Roy realizes that Elan activated another self-destruct mechanism, and everyone begins to flee. Belkar, still affected by the near-death draining, is unable to keep up and is trapped inside, presumably to die.

[NihhusHuotAliro]

:Roy: Hey, Xykon!

:Xykon: What.

:Roy: We prepared it for you. Go do the ritual on the gate.

:Xykon: And why would you want me to do that?

:Roy: Because, if the wold ends and all of creation is undone; nobody will feel any pain. Nobody will know about it. No suffering happens. In fact, stubbing my toe would add more to the misery of the world than opening the gate would. The only way that we know an event happened is by its effects. But, destroy all of creation; and there is no effect. There's no way to measure what happened; because there is nothing to measure and nobody to measure it. Thus, the event cannot be determined to have happened.

Releasing the snarl on the world will, in fact, do nothing. Nothing will happen.

There's no reason for me to prevent an event that has no effect and thus, doesn't exist. So go ahead.

:Xykon: Crap.

:Elan: And, once again, the day is saved by metaphysical philosophy!

[Olinser]

:Roy: Hey, Xykon!

:Xykon: What.

:Roy: We prepared it for you. Go do the ritual on the gate.

:Xykon: And why would you want me to do that?

:Roy: Because, if the wold ends and all of creation is undone; nobody will feel any pain. Nobody will know about it. No suffering happens. In fact, stubbing my toe would add more to the misery of the world than opening the gate would. The only way that we know an event happened is by its effects. But, destroy all of creation; and there is no effect. There's no way to measure what happened; because there is nothing to measure and nobody to measure it. Thus, the event cannot be determined to have happened.

Releasing the snarl on the world will, in fact, do nothing. Nothing will happen.

There's no reason for me to prevent an event that has no effect and thus, doesn't exist. So go ahead.

:Xykon: Crap.

:Elan: And, once again, the day is saved by metaphysical philosophy!

Xykon: And you know this how?

Elan: Some crazy old dude with a cat told us.

Xykon: Sweet. Let's find out if it's true. 'opens Gate'.

[veti]

:Roy: Because, if the wold ends and all of creation is undone; nobody will feel any pain. Nobody will know about it. No suffering happens. In fact, stubbing my toe would add more to the misery of the world than opening the gate would. The only way that we know an event happened is by its effects. But, destroy all of creation; and there is no effect. There's no way to measure what happened; because there is nothing to measure and nobody to measure it. Thus, the event cannot be determined to have happened.

At least two philosophical fallacies at work there...

One, the Schrodinger's Cat Fallacy. If the Snarl unmakes the world, the gods would remember it. And even if the Snarl unmakes the gods, the Snarl itself would remember them (and the world).

So this "nothing to measure and nobody to measure it" statement is not true, unless you further assume that the Snarl is either amnesiac or completely non-sentient (neither of which is supported by what we know of it).

Two, the Suffering Is Evil fallacy. If I stub my toe I'll feel pain, and maybe even misery, but is the misery so great that it completely eliminates my basic joy in being alive? (Which everyone, including Xykon, seems to appreciate most of the time.) There is a short-term decrease in my net happiness, but (you can reasonably argue) the overall balance remains positive. So everyone being completely destroyed - even painlessly - is still a massive decrease in overall global happiness.

(Of course, in a D&D world, if you could show that the number of souls being tormented in the Lower Planes was significantly higher than those enjoying their afterlives elsewhere, plus those still alive - you could say that it was a net good to destroy them all. But we don't have the statistics to make that argument.)

[NihhusHuotAliro]

No no no, the Snarl will then unmake itself.

Destroying existence sets the positive and negative emotions of life to a straight zero. Yes, it destroys joy, but it also destroys pain.

Xykon wants people to suffer; he wants a negative balance of joy and misery. The good guys want a positive balance.

Setting the balance to 0 goes against Xykon's goal of hurting people.

It goes against the goals of evil.

P.S. the above is sarcastic. I know that it's fallacious; but it was just too funny to imagine Roy going on a philosophic tangent like T-Rex from Dinosaur Comics.

[Thrillhouse]

Just a thought -- I'm willing to bet that, as Nale moves in on the Order, he'll make some unfortunate comments that will cause Malack to decide that postponing his revenge isn't worth it.

[Xenrei]

Just a thought -- I'm willing to bet that, as Nale moves in on the Order, he'll make some unfortunate comments that will cause Malack to decide that postponing his revenge isn't worth it.

Yeah, that is actually a pretty good idea. That could definitely change the course of the quest. With the Linear Guild tearing itself apart from the inside, the Order could have a chance at succeeding. :smallbiggrin:

I agree with the theory that Xykon is just an illusion, but there is no way to tell until Redcloak moves on-panel.

[sam79]

:Roy: Hey, Xykon!

:Xykon: What.

:Roy: We prepared it for you. Go do the ritual on the gate.

:Xykon: And why would you want me to do that?

:Roy: Because, if the wold ends and all of creation is undone; nobody will feel any pain. Nobody will know about it. No suffering happens. In fact, stubbing my toe would add mo--



:Xykon: Bored now. Meteor Swarm.

Though I love the idea of metaaphysical philospohy saving the world. Its got a better chance than a meat-shield with a metal stick, right?

[snoopy13a]

They won't. Xykon will defeat the Order, and the comic will end.

Actually, that would be a bit of a gut-punch wouldn't it? Only one more comic and then a fade to black?

[Olinser]

They won't. Xykon will defeat the Order, and the comic will end.

Actually, that would be a bit of a gut-punch wouldn't it? Only one more comic and then a fade to black?

That would be an epic April Fools troll by Rich. Too bad it would be 1 month late.

[Ewig Custos]

V will save the day. Somehow.
Yes, I know that "V is not allowed to solve problems". But think for a minute. V is not allowed to do that because of what? Because capabilities of dnd wizard can disrupt Giant's planned storyline (with a traditional feather fall example). But what if Rich is intending to let V save Order in this situation from the very beginning? Thus we see V's moral breakdown with a probable comeback later on. Would Rich throw V into garbage can without a reason? I don't think so.

[Mike Havran]

Well, now it seems that nobody but injured V and villains remained standing...

[sam79]

Well, now it seems that nobody but injured V and villains remained standing...

And just when you thought it was impossible for the Order to be in a more vulnerable situation...they are standing ready to be coup-de-grace-ed, while dreaming that they are saving the day.

Don't forget there's still (possibly?) Mr. Scruffy and (definately!) Blackwing. Both of whom are are lot more effective than Belkar in his present state!

[Bulldog Psion]

Blackwing seems to be rather easily hypnotized, though.

[sam79]

True enough. So the OotS only hope is a small white housecat and badly injured heavily traumatized Elf....Even their usual Run Away option has been taken from them.

So, looks like we've got to hope they'll be saved from Team Evil by the Linear Guild, and vice versa.

[B. Dandelion]

Could Roy be knocked out of his trance if he were to receive a Sending message? Since he's due to receive one pretty soon?

[Poppy Appletree]

I just posted this in another thread, but I think it's relevant here:


I don't think the Order is going to be the force contesting this gate; at least, not all of them. Tarquin and Malack are Epic level or close to it, and even without the Order's power being diminished they're simply no match for Xykon. Given that Durkon is now on the side of the Linear Guild, it wouldn't be entirely anti-climactic for the battle for the gate to be between two antagonist factions, because Durkon is still a PC and we're supposed to be cheering for him.

Xykon is an Epic level sorcerer. In all likelihood, he also knows where to find Kraagor's Gate, and he no longer has anything holding him stationary. If he doesn't get this gate, he'd just teleport to the next one before anyone else could get there. There needs to be something holding Xykon back to allow them to recover their strength for the last gate, and if Xykon had a head start there would never be any competition.

I think, ultimately, the Order is going to have to retreat, and the Linear Guild will destroy Xykon in this encounter.

[Nymrod]

Could Roy be knocked out of his trance if he were to receive a Sending message? Since he's due to receive one pretty soon?

Why would he? He is most likely experience a pattern or enchantment; he would simply get the new sensory input and process it alongside the illusion. Indeed if Hinjo calls to say Xykon is on his way, Roy may well tell him Xykon was just destroyed.

[Yumori Zatsuken]

As of my speculations,since Roy having a confusion or i know what,They are all dreaming.Since at the last panel.

SPECULATION:

LG will catch up with them and join the dream party.

The Runes will get disabled.

OoTS (or whats left) will fight LG

Tarquin will either make his army to the gate,or not.

Team Evil CAN pop out of nowhere and engage on OoTS and LG

Tarquin's army will join LG and fight them both.Xykon will get defeated,and RC will teleport him to somewhere.

Tarquin's army and LG will go out,and Elan activates another Self Destruction.

Everyone runs for their lives,with someone grabbing Belkar.

If V doesnt show up,he will die

[Xenrei]

I'm a bit worried as to what will happen to the Order when they snap out of their trance. :smalleek:

[Xenrei]

I wonder if, since V is on the way, (s)he might be able to snap them out of it. Or maybe V might partake of the illusion as well. *gasp!*