questions about skirmish and more than 1 attack per round

[Tanklin]

I have a question.

Well, i'm trying to build a ranger/scout. But i'm having problems trying to achieve more than 1 attack per round.

you can activate rapid shot only on a full round action, so you can't move.

if you use manyshot, the skirmish only applies to the first arrow.

the ideal is being able to move 20 feet (because improved skirmish) and make more than 1 attack per round.

Any feat that could be useful? or spells? or magic items?
i don't want to use the travel domain trick.

[Greenish]

There are many ways to gain free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358).

Alternatively, Greater Manyshot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#greaterManyshot) would also work.

[Tanklin]

isn't greater manyshot an epic level feat?

nvm, i found that feat.

thank you very much!

[Techwarrior]

Mounted Archery, your horse moves and you fire.

[Flickerdart]

Mounted Archery, your horse moves and you fire.
Unfortunately, errata made skirmish require you to move yourself.

[Arc_knight25]

Pounce with 2 weapon rend. You can get pounce by dipping into 1 lvl of Barbarian and switching out Fast Movement for Pounce.

Skirmish isn't as good as sneak attack since you need to get the movement to get Skirmish.

I would spec TWF for the ranger and make a charging build using your pounce to get your Skirmish off on multiple attacks.

I'm sure there is some Combat style feats somewhere that will help you out if you made a charging build, rather then the ranged you you seem to have right now.

[rollforeigninit]

I know its a pretty heavy feat tax but Bounding Assault and Rapid Blitz might work. I'm AFB at the moment though.

[Curmudgeon]

Skirmish isn't as good as sneak attack since you need to get the movement to get Skirmish.
If you can solve the 10' move + full attack problem, skirmish is much more reliable than sneak attack. There are several ways to solve that problem. Plus there's a feat (Ranged Skirmisher) which simply increases the skirmish range to 60', whereas the nearest equivalent (Crossbow Sniper) limits your weapon choice — and you've still got to deny the target their DEX bonus to AC somehow.

[lunar2]

isn't there a feat for a rogue/scout build that lets you get both SA and skirmish based on the total level in the two classes?

[Phelix-Mu]

Skirmish isn't as good as sneak attack since you need to get the movement to get Skirmish.


I'd have to agree with Curmudgeon here. Skirmish has several strong tactical advantages over sneak attack, especially as there are about a million ways to get 10' worth of movement.

My favorite requires a monk/scout and a DM that lets you use the 3.0 item sparring dummy of the master. Now, you can take a 10' step each round as a free action.

Travel Devotion and a number of other magic items, not to mention a handful of maneuvers from ToB, all give similar free/near free movement.

On a side note, does anyone know if skirmish will only trigger off of normal movement? If a scout teleports 10' or more, does that count?

EDIT: The feat for the above poster is Swift Ambusher, from Complete Scoundrel, I believe.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Teleport doesn't work AFAIK; but burrowing, climbing, swiming and flying does.

[Curmudgeon]

On a side note, does anyone know if skirmish will only trigger off of normal movement? If a scout teleports 10' or more, does that count?
Teleportation is relocation without movement. Only movement enables skirmish damage.

[Arc_knight25]

I'm not saying Skirmish is bad by any means. Just not as reliable as sneak attack is for a fullattack from a flanking position. I thought he was trying to achieve a way to fullattack while still getting his skirmish off on all his attacks with his ranger/scout build.

Getting the 10ft movement and full-attack can be tricky. Throw in any difficult terrain and those free 10ft actions only become 5ft. The scout is all about mobility, you hinder that then your scout has a problem.

And I do beleive there is a feat that will combine both scout and rogue levels. It is either in Complete Adventurer or Complete Scoundrel.

[Zjordan85]

It's expensive, but a Belt of Battle (MIC) can give you up to 3 extra move actions a day, allowing you to move up to your speed and full attack.

You could also dip a Tome of Battle class or take Martial Study for Sudden Leap, allowing you to jump as a swift action.

[Fouredged Sword]

Greater Manyshot is not an epic feat.

Prereqs allow it to be taken at 6th level due to +6 BAB prereq.

Another way around the full attack restriction is to use chain launch bolt to fire CL bolts as a standard action. Did that as a swiftblade, twice each round. Fun times.

[killem2]

Teleportation is relocation without movement. Only movement enables skirmish damage.

Hmm, isn't that debating heavily around here, I always see those damn anklets as a go to item for scouts.

[Curmudgeon]

Getting the 10ft movement and full-attack can be tricky. Throw in any difficult terrain and those free 10ft actions only become 5ft.
It depends on how you're getting 10' movement. Tumble will get there with DC 40 in ordinary terrain, and the DC doesn't go up too much for difficult terrain (another +2 to +10, depending on the particulars of what makes it "difficult"). You can get magical boosts of up to +30 competence for any individual skill pre-Epic, so that's doable if you're willing to spend the resources.

[Arc_knight25]

I get that tumble can be used to get your movement for Skirmish. Tumbling is a move action, the moment you tumble you lose your full-attack. I'm saying it is tricky to get both the Movement requirement for skirmish and your Full-attack. Tumble with any race (even dwarf or small) can do it with a DC 15 tumble check. Tumble is 1/2 movement. I think a full move tumble is DC 25 +2 per creature you tumble by.

I state again i thought he was looking to get skirmish as well as full-attack. I don't see a ranged build capable of a full attack and skirmish without alot of magic items and tricks to get there. A melee build with pounce can get all there attacks as well as skirmish, just seems easier then the ranged alternative.

[Curmudgeon]

I get that tumble can be used to get your movement for Skirmish. Tumbling is a move action ...
You're not aware of the actual Tumble check involved, I take it. The DC 40 Tumble check is to move 10' in place of a 5' step. A 5' step is officially "no action", not a move action. This allows adding skirmish damage for all the attacks of a full attack action.

[killem2]

I guess, I would as a DM rule that teleportation would be allowed. I see skirmish as a scout realizing a great shot he or she can take, if she gets to the right spot RIGHT NOW.

Teleporting just makes it that much more awesome.

[Arc_knight25]

You would be correct. I did not know that was a function of the tumble skill. I didn't see it in the skill description on the DnD wiki or the D20SDR(I'm at work and lack my pdf's). What source is this function of tumble from?

If that is the case then yes by all means make your tumble check and fire away.

[Greenish]

That use of Tumble (along with a few others) is from Oriental Adventures.

[Curmudgeon]

I guess, I would as a DM rule that teleportation would be allowed. I see skirmish as a scout realizing a great shot he or she can take, if she gets to the right spot RIGHT NOW.

Teleporting just makes it that much more awesome.
Then what about the mounted Scout? It's the same situation, and that one's strictly disallowed by the errata.

Plus, of course, that viewpoint simply can't be right: it presupposes that the Scout was never smart enough to start out any round already in a position where they could take a good shot. :smalleek:

[Flickerdart]

Skirmish is more like "haha you were looking over there but now I am over here and you are dead" in my opinion. It wouldn't work with teleportation, because it's not just "I am surprising you with this attack" since there's no flat footing going on, but the motion of the scout's form concealing the attack's true intentions.

[Darius Kane]

A Scout strikes/shoots at just the right place by positioning himself better. He spots a weak spot and moves. An enemy in combat is constantly moving so a Scout can't just strike/shoot again in the same place, that's why he has to position himself again every round.

[killem2]

Then what about the mounted Scout? It's the same situation, and that one's strictly disallowed by the errata.

Plus, of course, that viewpoint simply can't be right: it presupposes that the Scout was never smart enough to start out any round already in a position where they could take a good shot. :smalleek:

Combatants are always moving.

Ninja'd!

Aside from that, I don't care that they ruled against mounted combat. That is not my concern.

Because this is the same company who has created a rule set far more complex than d&d could ever hope to be (mtg), I will bow out, when ever I must try and assume what wotc wanted.

If I feel it is going to break the game, then I'll add my own rule, but that is not the same as determining RAW.

[Person_Man]

Go through the Pounce and Free Movement list that Greenish linked to. It contains many ways to get either or both, which will ensure that you can move at least 10 feet per round while making a full attack.

More specific suggestions:

A Wand of Lion's Charge (Ranger 2, Spell Compendium) is fairly cheap, and can be placed inside a Wand Chamber (Dungeonscape) so you don't need a free hand to use it.
Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker gives you 1/day swift action to move up to your speed. (Magic Item Compendium, 500 gp). There's no reason you couldn't buy four of them, and use it once per combat as needed.
You can take the Wildshape variant Ranger (Unearthed Arcana). Many animals grant Pounce, and it still counts as Ranger for Swift Hunter.
Boots of Sidestepping (Dungeonscape) or Cunning Evasion Feat (PHBII) gives you an Immediate Action 5 ft step (which doesn't count toward your 5 ft step limit) when you're hit by an effect that allows you to make a Reflex Save. Combine with the Explosive weapon enhancement from Complete Warrior, which triggers a 5 ft burst that you can avoid with Evasion each time you attack. (Basically, you take a normal 5 ft step, cause a small explosion when you hit an enemy, and take another 5 ft step, triggering Skirmish even when you can't use Charge/Pounce).
I suggest that you follow the TWF tree instead of archery and take Quickdraw or invest in some Returning weapons. That way, you'll be able to Move or Charge, make melee attacks, and then if you kill everyone in your reach (or just can't reach them with your normal Move or Charge) make thrown weapon attacks. This has numerous advantages over bows - you never trigger AoO from enemies, you have a threatened area and enemeis can potentially trigger AoO from you, it's less Feat intensive, and Pounce is generally easier to come by then free movement.

[Asgardian]

I'm running on 3 hours sleep so i knw this is probably a less than good idea. but...

What about A swift Hunter Build with the splitting enchantment (each arrow gets own attach roll so the Skirmish damage should be per arrow)

[RagnaroksChosen]

I highly recommend dipping 1 level of cleric... getting travel devotion from Complete champion i believe?

You can burn turn attempts to move your movement I believe as a swift action each turn, or maybe its 30 ft either way enough to get to activate skirmish and full attack. Its nifty.

[killem2]

I highly recommend dipping 1 level of cleric... getting travel devotion from Complete champion i believe?

You can burn turn attempts to move your movement I believe as a swift action each turn, or maybe its 30 ft either way enough to get to activate skirmish and full attack. Its nifty.

then load up on night sticks :D

[Dusk Eclipse]

Eh one use of Travel devotion last for 1 min, most combats don't take that long so multiple Nightsticks seems overkill to me

[killem2]

Eh one use of Travel devotion last for 1 min, most combats don't take that long so multiple Nightsticks seems overkill to me

I meant more of using it per day. My dm likes to throw encoutners at different times of the day :P

[MesiDoomstalker]

I highly recommend dipping 1 level of cleric... getting travel devotion from Complete champion i believe?

You can burn turn attempts to move your movement I believe as a swift action each turn, or maybe its 30 ft either way enough to get to activate skirmish and full attack. Its nifty.

It actually grants you 30 ft of movement as a Swift Action. The effect last 10 rounds (effectively all combat). The Feat grants you one use, and each Turn Undead your burn lets you use it again (for another 10 rounds). You'll have by default 4+Cha mod uses per day which should be plenty.

[Greenish]

It actually grants you 30 ft of movement as a Swift Action. The effect last 10 rounds (effectively all combat). The Feat grants you one use, and each Turn Undead your burn lets you use it again (for another 10 rounds). You'll have by default 4+Cha mod uses per day which should be plenty.It allows you to move your speed as a swift action, and it takes two TU attempts to gain an extra use. Not that it really matters when the OP specifically said he didn't want to use it.

[Tanklin]

It actually grants you 30 ft of movement as a Swift Action. The effect last 10 rounds (effectively all combat). The Feat grants you one use, and each Turn Undead your burn lets you use it again (for another 10 rounds). You'll have by default 4+Cha mod uses per day which should be plenty.

yeah... but i don't like the idea of convert the sniper in a cleric to gain combat advantages. I don't like those things.

[GreenETC]

yeah... but i don't like the idea of convert the sniper in a cleric to gain combat advantages. I don't like those things.

You could always just take Travel Devotion as a feat without having Turn Undead, and just have the one use a day.

Other than that, there's a lot of feet/belt items around the multiple books, especially in the MiC, that let you move around for free.

[Curmudgeon]

The Feat grants you one use, and each two Turn Undead uses your burn lets you use it again (for another 10 rounds).
I've corrected that for you. A Cleric gets (3 + CHA mod) undead turn attempts daily, so a Charisma of 12 will allow 2 additional uses (3 total daily) of Travel Devotion. In some campaigns that will cover all your daily encounters; in others it will be inadequate.

[Allanimal]

Chronocharm of the Horizon Walker gives you 1/day swift action to move up to your speed. (Magic Item Compendium, 500 gp). There's no reason you couldn't buy four of them, and use it once per combat as needed.


except that the MiC says:



A chronocharm occupies the throat body slot, but it can be worn simultaneously with any number of other chronocharms, which all function normally. However, you can't wear more than one of the same chronocharm. You must wear a chronocharm for 24 hours before you can access its abilities. If it is taken off, it becomes inactive until worn for an additional 24 hours.