[3.5] Epic effects

[GreenSerpent]

Okay. I'm in an interesting situation. I'm building a character for an Epic game (level 60 gestalt with a lot of house-rules including Epic Spells cast off caster level rather than Spellcraft). And because I like challenges, I'm trying to build a character with as little spellcasting capability as possible.

Currently I'm working on a Paragon (houseruled as LA +12) Human Warblade (epic progression and feats used here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95516) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95435)). My plan is to use Void Incarnate (here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030810a)) to keep them flat-footed, use Epic Iajitsu Focus from the Epic Iajitsu Master (here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ei/20030902a)) in order to do massive damage.

My build also includes a level dip into Witch Hunter to get Kami's Grace, a 2-level dip into Paladin to get Divine Grace, and 7 levels in Shadowdancer (these are mandatory to qualify for Void Incarnate). Combined with Improved Evasion and Improved Mettle it's basically "never fail a save".

Feats include the Mage Slayer chain, Stand Still combined with Thicket of Blades and so on.

Basically what I'm asking is "what should I be prepared for, and can anyone suggest any improvements/ideas"? Please remember that I intend to have as little spellcasting as possible. The game is arena-style, so I won't need to deal with Astral Projections, Ice Assassins, demiplanes etc. Also Mind Swap and anything made of cheese is banned.

And please, don't say "just play a spellcaster/manifester/incarnum user". While I understand that's the easiest and most powerful path... well, that would be too easy!

[Crake]

Occult Slayer for Ex immunity to mind affecting is probably something you'd want to pick up if you're intent on competing with spellcasters?

[GreenSerpent]

Occult Slayer for Ex immunity to mind affecting is probably something you'd want to pick up if you're intent on competing with spellcasters?

Void Incarnate grants that as well.

[NeoPhoenix0]

i would suggest planning your skills carefully. use epic level skill uses. for example if your spot is fully trained you have a chance, dc 80, of seeing through any illusion with a skill check.

[AmberVael]

Basically what I'm asking is "what should I be prepared for, and can anyone suggest any improvements/ideas"? Please remember that I intend to have as little spellcasting as possible. The game is arena-style, so I won't need to deal with Astral Projections, Ice Assassins, demiplanes etc. Also Mind Swap and anything made of cheese is banned.

Hoo boy.
This is an extremely important question for me to ask- does "cheese" include Celerity, Anticipatory Strike, Synchronicity, Contingency, and other such options? Because if one or more of these things is allowed, the task ahead of you is likely to be less difficult, and more impossible.

In my experience, high level/power play that does not directly ascend into broken tends to settle on these things being the main factors of power. The ability to pull out instant counters and reactions is huge, and if they're available, you can get a ton of them by the time you hit level 60 gestalt. That is... if you're playing a spellcaster. If you're not playing a spellcaster, the best recourse that I know if is Tome of Battle, Stance of Alacrity, and lots and lots of counters. (PS, you want Stance of Alacrity and lots and lots of counters. Consider taking Master of Nine for the bonus maneuvers known and readied.)

As a second note, you're going to want every effect from this list. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=187851) One suggestion though- don't actually rely on any magic items to get them. You want as few weak points as possible, and if a level 60 caster comes along and decides to dispel your caster level 10 gear, well, that's a major weakness. Luckily, quite a few of these things can be obtained through less magical means, especially if you're willing to use templates (note, you should definitely consider templates in level 60 gestalt where you don't want to be a spellcaster. I recommend Voidmind for one, as the immunities it grants are pretty rare.)

I also recommend effects that simply guarantee or reinforce success chance beyond modifiers. For example, it is imperative that you get access to the Devoted Spirit stance Aura of Perfect Order. When you need something to succeed, that stance is a lifesaver. Taking 11 on any d20 roll is amazing. Similar things include the granted ability of the Pride Domain, the Weapon Supremacy feat (though I dunno that I'd recommend it given its prerequisites), and Steadfast Determination.

If you can snag it, definitely try and get Mindsight or at least invest heavily into Spot. You need a way to trump big hide checks, darkstalker, and the other stuff a person might try and go for to be continually hidden.

Also, an observation- by the time you get into epic, people will be expecting enemies to boost saves and immunities into the stratosphere, so they will often attempt to have strategies that are as unavoidable as possible. Your job is to anticipate, counter and avoid these strategies anyway. Some are harder than others. For example, good luck trying to avoid a wilder who has focused on squeezing every drop of power out of swarm of crystals. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/swarmofCrystals.htm) And while you may succeed almost every time on every save... if a spellcaster can toss out ten spells a turn, your odds start to look worse, no matter how high your saves are (and Mettle can't protect you from everything, after all). There are counters to these things, but they can be difficult to come by.

By the way, expect absolutely no one to be affected by Void Presence. Immunity to Mind-Affecting is exceptionally common at this level. If you find someone who isn't, great. But assuming they have it should be the default.

There's probably a lot more I could say, but lets leave it here for now.

[GreenSerpent]

I believe as long as they aren't abused Celerity and similar effects are allowed.

On the plus side the character I'm working on is currently completely immune to divine magic through sky-high saves and Divine Denial (EoE, allows a save even on no-save spells). Assuming the save granted is save-or-no-effect, then Improved Mettle from Void Incarnate means that the successful effect happens even if the save is failed. A pretty acceptable place to start.

[ArcturusV]

Seems like an odd thing to say. Because by it's very nature Celerity is broken incarnate. Same with Contingency really. I mean Celerity is basically an "I Win" Easy Mode Button. Especially combined with Foresight's "I can never be surprised or flat-footed" (Note: need a way to deal with Foresight or you'll never get your Iajutsu).

As long as you're planning to Iajutsu, you might as well go for Sneak Attack stuff as well. Anytime you can Iajutsu, you can Sneak Attack. Extra D6s are Extra D6s. I mean as long as you're going for that sort of thing? No reason not to.

[Daftendirekt]

I find it amusing that it's a level 60 gestalt game and yet you tell us "Cheese is banned"...

[Evolved Shrimp]

You may want to consider getting a starmantle cloak (Book of Exalted Deeds p116). If your DM allows it to function as described, you'll be almost immune to weapon damage (including from natural weapons) as long as you stay out of antimagic fields and dead magic zones: The cloak gives you straight-up immunity against nonmagical weapons as well as a fixed DC 15 reflex save to halve any damage from magical weapons - which, thanks to Evasion and your epic-level save bonuses, means that you take damage only on a natural 1. Effectively, you'll have infinite AC.

[GreenSerpent]

You may want to consider getting a starmantle cloak (Book of Exalted Deeds p116). If your DM allows it to function as described, you'll be almost immune to weapon damage (including from natural weapons) as long as you stay out of antimagic fields and dead magic zones: The cloak gives you straight-up immunity against nonmagical weapons as well as a fixed DC 15 reflex save to halve any damage from magical weapons - which, thanks to Evasion and your epic-level save bonuses, means that you take damage only on a natural 1. Effectively, you'll have infinite AC.

And with rerolls that goes down to a 0.25% chance to get hit.

And combined with an item of Friendly Fire (aka raise-hand-bounce-ranged-attacks-away) and Ironguard (metal weapon? Lolnope) I'd be all but immune to melee and ranged damage.

There's no Antimagic Field to worry about... the DMs banned it for being... too powerful *WHYface*.

[AmberVael]

I believe as long as they aren't abused Celerity and similar effects are allowed.
Then you're probably doomed against anyone who uses them.


On the plus side the character I'm working on is currently completely immune to divine magic through sky-high saves and Divine Denial (EoE, allows a save even on no-save spells). Assuming the save granted is save-or-no-effect, then Improved Mettle from Void Incarnate means that the successful effect happens even if the save is failed. A pretty acceptable place to start.

...no, it doesn't work like that.
The Mettle and Improved Mettle abilities only affect saves that are Partial or Half. So, spells like destruction (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/destruction.htm) and inflict light wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/inflictLightWounds.htm) respectively.
Something like Blindness/Deafness (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/blindnessDeafness.htm), on the other hand, is neither partial or half, but instead just "negates." If you fail your save against it, Mettle and Improved Mettle do nothing to help you. You get blinded. Or whatever the spell happens to do.

The Mettle abilities help a lot, but the vast majority of powerful save based spells will still be dangerous to you, especially if thrown out in numbers. This is why I strongly suggested getting at least some ability to control what you roll- because even if you have high saves, you can still roll a one, still fail, and die instantly and ingloriously.


I find it amusing that it's a level 60 gestalt game and yet you tell us "Cheese is banned"...

Cheese isn't tied to level of play. While admittedly it would be a lot harder to maintain balance at such a level (I'd certainly never try it), just because everyone is at that level doesn't mean they have to do stuff like chain gate solars or even do smaller things like abuse metamagic.

...though admittedly, attempting to become immune to all saves does not precisely strike me as lacking in cheese. Let alone a starmantle/evasion combination...

[Phelix-Mu]

And combined with an item of Friendly Fire (aka raise-hand-bounce-ranged-attacks-away) and Ironguard (metal weapon? Lolnope) I'd be all but immune to melee and ranged damage.

There's no Antimagic Field to worry about... the DMs banned it for being... too powerful *WHYface*.

Point the first: Several epic level feats (which you can probably squeeze into level 60 gestalt) duplicate many of the effects of friendly fire, but without being an item (a weakness at this level). Infinite Deflection, Exceptional Deflection, and Reflect Arrows all combo very well together, and will provide a backup for when some caster inevitably breaks your item. The Dex requirement is a little steep, but not impossible at this level.

This all indicates what others have alluded to; at level 60, DM plot monkey will have to be at work for fights to mean much of anything. I mean, why would you fight someone when 99% of your normal tactics are flat out negated, and absent some foolproof kill technique on round 1, the fights stand to be very non-interesting (i.e., waiting for someone's disjunction to hit, waiting for crit fails, waiting while the wizard hits you with twinned repeating greater celerities during time stop, etc).

Level 60 gestalt. Wow. Well, I'll be interested in seeing the final build you come up with.

[Slipperychicken]

Magic Immunity is a good idea. Negating everything which allows SR will be very nice.

Remember that you can lower Magic Immunity is SR, so remember to lower it during buff rounds (since even your round/level spells will last a few minutes -more than enough time).

[GreenSerpent]

The DMs hit Infinite Deflection with a MASSIVE nerf - you can only deflect as many projectiles as you have free hands. Supposedly because "it's possible to deflect every attack made against you that round".

I'm currently thinking through absolutely everything and am having little luck. I considered a Music of the Gods Bard who used truly gigantic save DCs to Fascinate them, but then ran into the problem of them using Celerity as soon as they get de-fascinated when I cast a spell at them.

EDIT: Also they banned Antimagic Field and all similar effects.

[Slipperychicken]

The DMs hit Infinite Deflection with a MASSIVE nerf - you can only deflect as many projectiles as you have free hands. Supposedly because "it's possible to deflect every attack made against you that round".


Ah. I see the game you're playing. It's the common "Epic D&D: Big numbers, Dieties and Fiat". Don't fret, almost all Epic games are run like this.


It should be identical to low levels... only with big numbers, gods, and fiat running the show. Your team mates are unlikely to have acquired immunities, in favor of bigger plusses, and same with the enemies.

[Karnith]

Also they banned Antimagic Field and all similar effects.
What does that include? Is Disjunction still on the table, for example?

Also, your DM nerfing Infinite Deflection and banning Anitmagic Field while retaining Epic Spellcasting (even houseruled as it is) makes me think that you're probably going to be fine.

[GreenSerpent]

Direct quote about Disjunction:


MORDENKAINEN'S DISJUNCTION
This is no longer an area spell, it works just like Greater Dispel Magic, it doesn't dispel spells automatically, it still requires a caster level check with a 15 bonus. It still has the ability dispel unusual things like AMF. It will attempt to Dispel all spells and active magical effects on ONE target.

As in, check is d20+caster level+15 vs d20+opposing caster level.

Also simplifed list of banned stuff:


Evolved Undead has a 5x limit, Antimagic Field and all similar effects suppressed, Amulet of Retribution is banned, Twinning Celerity has no effect, Consumptive Field stacking is capped at 1/2 unmodded caster level, Cosmic Connection deals bonus squared damage instead of 5 per CL, Disjoin spell is banned, no Dying Curses, Flyby Breath feat allows 1/round breath only, Grafts don't stack, Hiveminds are banned, Illithid Savant allows gains dependant on level not on number of creatures eaten, Mace of Smiting insta-kills any construct on a crit, Dispel Magic/GDM work as Disjunction above but with +5/+10 bonuses respectively, monsters with built-in casting can exchange it for another or the same class (e.g. Sorceror to Wizard), Multispell does not apply to [immediate] action spells, Owl's Insight caps at +10, Psi-Magic Transparency is in effect, Rerolls capped at 5 per roll, Reserves of Strength increases caster level cap by 3, Sarrukh is banned, Shadow Epic Seed & Ice Assassin & Simulacrum banned, Gate/Shapechange and related spells can only summon/turn into non-templated creatures, Thought Bottle is banned, anything listed as Variant Rules is banned.

And a slightly more important piece:


REGENERATION AND DAMAGE IMMUNITY
If you are immune to nonlethal damage, no spell, ability or other effect can convert damage dealt to you from lethal to nonlethal.

[Sith_Happens]

Also, your DM nerfing Infinite Deflection and banning Anitmagic Field while retaining Epic Spellcasting (even houseruled as it is) makes me think that you're probably going to be fine.

Fixed.

Basically, in any epic game where the Epic Spellcasting feat isn't banned, it's have epic spells or go home.

[Phelix-Mu]

Inform your DM there are still a bunch of ways to permanently destroy items. Especially as each player will be able to afford their own personal, monogrammed Death Star and Super Star Destroyer.

Inform your DM that twinning celerity isn't really the problem (and that he needs to deal with arcane fusion too, if twice per round is the issue). I'm wondering...he should probably just hit repeat celerity with his banhammer, too.

The banned use of gate is interesting, but hardly where the problem lies. Inform the DM that, as written, it allows characters to no-save calling each other if they are off their home plane, and compel the called person to do whatever. Make sure to clear this up.

Why cap owl's insight while allowing epic magic that makes it entirely not necessary? I believe there will still be ample abuse of the Fortify seed.

The allowing of Epic Magic while aiming most of the nerfs soundly at casters makes me feel that the DM is slightly conflicted.

I do kind of like the "no immunity to damage" ruling, though. Having people immune to nonlethal and with regeneration is strange to me. Oh, rules, I love you!

Finally, what's with that ruling on Infinite Deflection? Is he aware that friendly fire exists and is better? WHY, GODS, IS HE NERFING NON-CASTERS?

[GreenSerpent]

WHY, GODS, IS HE NERFING NON-CASTERS?

To be honest, I only noticed the non-caster nerfs after I joined the game... and I think mentioning Friendly Fire will just get that spell banned and no changes made to the existing nerf.

Ooh, while I remember, these are the Epic Magic houserules.


EPIC SPELLS
Epic Spells are severely weakened, but still usable.
1.Instead of making Spellcraft checks to cast something, you have to use Caster Level checks.
2.you can't use additional participants as a mitigating factor and mitigating factors can't reduce spell's casting DC to less than half.
3.The total DC after mitigating factor can't be higher than X, where X is your ECL+10 or 60, whichever is higher.
4.Fortify seed can add only enhancement, inherent, sacred/profane, competence or morale bonuses to ability scores.
5.Mythal seed from Lost Empires of Faerun may only be cast on a non mobile object. It is the only seed I allow a second caster for. The spells incorporated or banned in the Mythal add their casting time to the final casting time of the Mythal spell.

[Karnith]

My, those sure are some, uh, interesting houserules there. Does anyone in the group have experience with epic games that they based them on? Because most of those things just aren't problematic.

Fixed.

Basically, in any epic game where the Epic Spellcasting feat isn't banned, it's have epic spells or go home.
My point was that if the DM and the group don't see a problem with Epic Spellcasting but find Infinite Deflection nerf-/ban-worthy, they probably don't have the system mastery that would make the game problematic beyond managing big numbers.

But, yeah, if I was in that game, I would play a 60th-level caster and use all of the Epic Spellcasting.

[GreenSerpent]

I'm considering making an Elven High Mage (RoF)... the 75% cost on ANY 5 epic spells is rather tempting. It's supposed to be on Mythals only, but it doesn't mention the word Mythal anywhere in there.

[Karnith]

I'm considering making an Elven High Mage (RoF)... the 75% cost on ANY 5 epic spells is rather tempting. It's supposed to be on Mythals only, but it doesn't mention the word Mythal anywhere in there.
If that doesn't work, you could just go Netherese Arcanist, who explicitly get cost reduction on all of their epic spells (though you lose access to some seeds because of Field Specialization).

EDIT: Also, I thought that playing a spellcaster was out?

[GreenSerpent]

I've decided that while I would LIKE to play a martial-oriented character, I may have no choice than to play someone with some degree of spellcasting in order to survive beyond Round 0.

[Karnith]

I've decided that while I would LIKE to play a martial-oriented character, I may have no choice than to play someone with some degree of spellcasting in order to survive beyond Round 0.
Yeah, that's basically what epic levels are like. And why level 60 (or any arbitrarily high level) is so silly to start at.

EDIT: Though the limit on mitigation is at least a good start at keeping things from being too silly. On further consideration, Epic Spellcasting is probably not going to be very powerful in your campaign.

If you are going for an epic spellcaster anyway, though, do take a look at Netherese High Arcanist (Player's Guide to Faerun), because they're waaaay cooler than Elven High Mages.

[GreenSerpent]

Direct quote from a DM within the last few minutes.


There are ways to deal with blastificers, celerity, etc. If we ban everything that gives players an advantage, you'd all have to be playing Commoners forbidden to be trained in Use Magic Device. MY main concern is making sure that there's nothing that gives an -insurmountable- advantage-- I don't want this game to have a dominant strategy.

I'm waiting on a response on how to deal with Celerity. This might be amusing.

[Karnith]

MY main concern is making sure that there's nothing that gives an -insurmountable- advantage-- I don't want this game to have a dominant strategy.
If his goal is to prevent there from being a dominant strategy in the game, you may want to inform him that with his houserules casters will dominate (even without Epic Spellcasting).

[GreenSerpent]

Got a response as to how to "counter" Celerity.



Spell Stowaway: Celerity (feat)
Contingent Spell (trigger of "someone on the same plane casts a Celerity spell") (spell or purchasable item)
Cast your own Celerity (you can totally have immediate actions too). After all, if two players use Celerity, then the one who was ahead in the initiative order to begin with will end up going first.
Use another immediate-action "gain the chance to do something" spell, power, or ability (they do exist).
Prevent their Celerity from happening. There are ways to do that, too (depending on the map you pick).
Just outlast whatever they do. You say you can become invincible, right?

[Gazzien]

Got a response as to how to "counter" Celerity.

So I see a really good opportunity for standard-action Synchronity-Affinity Field action abuse, here... (or your own method of choice)

Use your own celerity and a ridiculously high initiative to start it, of course... that way, you go first, and their Celerity doesn't even matter!

You're Invincible! (By way of not letting them do anything before they die, because their immediate was burned on the useless Celerity)

I probably missed a houserule...

[Phelix-Mu]

Does the OP have any hint of what the other players will be bringing to the table?

60 levels gestalt, you could really cram about 2-3 builds worth of extra crazy in there.

Hmm...I'm picturing some kind of armoured elven mage...let's call him Corellon Larethian. Mix and match pure caster with warblade and Eternal Blade on the other side. You could even get casting in full armour if you want...man, 60 is just a huge number.

Anyway, over 20 in any base class will be nice because you get bonus epic feats. Not that there are that many worth taking, but it's hard to have too much Automatic Quicken Spell, Improved Spell Capacity, and Great Str/Dex/Con/w/e.

EDIT: Oh, Contingent Spell is on the table. My friends and I have just discovered that this disturbingly vague item creation feat is apparently kosher in our epic campaign. Number of contingent spells limited by number of hit dice. I wonder if that will be problematic at level 60?

[GreenSerpent]

You know what, I might ask the DMs to throw all three of their test characters at me. After I've worked out a way to defeat them all at once of course.

[Karnith]

You know what, I might ask the DMs to throw all three of their test characters at me. After I've worked out a way to defeat them all at once of course.
Well, it won't be that hard, considering that you can take Multispell, Improved Metamagic, and/or Automatic Quicken Spell a bunch of times each thanks to all the bonus feats you'll get. Beating them in one round ought to be fun.

[Phelix-Mu]

The um, I'd definitely pick up warblade, work the Int-synergy angle with an elven wizard and Diamond Mind maneuvers. If for no other reason than Mind Over Body and their ilk. Never crit fail saves again. And the cap on Concentration checks will be arbitrarily high. And the warblade recharge mechanic can be powered with celerity, I believe. Time Stands Still and Moment of Alacrity and stuff like that are basically designed for synergistic abuse. And, as an epic level warblade/eternal blade, you will have many, many hit points, which can, at least make you feel safe.:smallamused:

And get like...I dunno, 20 Contingent Spell celerities cast on you, set to trigger on mental action, on another caster using Celerity, on the moon being full, on the waitress being hot, etc.

And remember, always bring your Death Star with you for the fights. Has the DM determined the WBL? Going by the existing metric, it will be monstrously stratospheric, so remember to load up on slotless hands of glory so you can get as many rings of wizardry as there are stars in the sky.

Oh, and ANCESTRAL RELIC. And ITEM FAMILIAR. And MULTIPLE FAMILIARS.

*hyperventilating*

Good Luck.

[GreenSerpent]

Well, it won't be that hard, considering that you can take Multispell, Improved Metamagic, and/or Automatic Quicken Spell a bunch of times each thanks to all the bonus feats you'll get.

One of them is a rather nasty looking Psion/Hathran who took Multispell 33 times and Improved Spell Capacity 8 times.

The other is a Bard/Warblade who I don't think there'd be much trouble from despite his really high Inspire Courage.

EDIT: Item Familiars are banned... are they? I'm not sure. I'm going to go check. Checked, I think they might be.

EDIT: And you guys are going to have a field day with this. Theurge classes are allowed. WBL is about 60 million.

[Phelix-Mu]

One of them is a rather nasty looking Psion/Hathran who took Multispell 33 times and Improved Spell Capacity 8 times.

The other is a Bard/Warblade who I don't think there'd be much trouble from despite his really high Inspire Courage.

EDIT: Item Familiars are banned... are they? I'm not sure. I'm going to go check.

Item familiars might be a variant rule. Sounds like UA. Lucky for you, I believe the Extra Familiar feat was just Dragon Mags. Checked. Page 62 of Dragon #280, it seems (thanks, google). It gives you an extra familiar. It can be taken multiple times. Now, it's down to the DM how this interacts with the epic wiz/sor bonus Familiar Spell for their familiar...but I think you can see where this is going. Take Extra Familiar X-times. Have many, many spell slots. Imbue familiars with spell ability (Spell Compendium). Put disguises on your familiars so they look like something they aren't. Take ranks in UMD. Give familiars items making them immune to daze. Exploit. Exploit.

EDIT: Oh, Theurge, you say? Wow. Hmm. I guess you could Jade Phoenix Mage at some point, though that's not really theurge. All prestige has to be on one side of the gestalt, is that right? My gestalt is very, very rusty.

Um...60 million gp. Well, like I said, start at getting enough spell slots to choke a titan, distribute among your familiars. Have awakened golems hidden in portable holes and commanded by familiars using celerity. Have epic wands held and used by familiars. Have familiars shapechange into x and tank/obscure line of effect for you. Gah, the ideas are endless.

[GreenSerpent]

Ooops, I should've mentioned at the start Dragon Magazine and the Dragon Compendium (?) is banned. They did show a LITTLE sense at some of the... questionably balanced material... in it.

[Phelix-Mu]

Ooops, I should've mentioned at the start Dragon Magazine and the Dragon Compendium (?) is banned. They did show a LITTLE sense at some of the... questionably balanced material... in it.

Aww. Well, there go a handful of useful ideas.

Back to hardbound material, I suppose.

Well, after familiapocalypse, my next idea involves...teleporting objects!

Hmm. Maybe not. The cheese is so thick, I need windshield wipers. I was thinking of some kind of tactic of filling the battlefield with arbitrarily large amounts of crap that provides cover and blocks line of effect (quaal's feather token, tree version, and such). Earthglide in, or some such, and then lay down some smack with endless attack chains.

Contingent Spell abuse is worth optimizing. I can't believe Dragon Mags is out, but Contingent Spell is in.

[Karnith]

I can't believe Dragon Mags is out, but Contingent Spell is in.
They want to keep the cheese to a minimum, you see.

[TuggyNE]

Well, after familiapocalypse, my next idea involves...teleporting objects!

Hmm. Maybe not. The cheese is so thick, I need windshield wipers. I was thinking of some kind of tactic of filling the battlefield with arbitrarily large amounts of crap that provides cover and blocks line of effect (quaal's feather token, tree version, and such). Earthglide in, or some such, and then lay down some smack with endless attack chains.

Do weird stuff with "formerly-shrunk rocks fall, enemies die", like my Stuka idea.

[GreenSerpent]

Well let's see. I'm starting off with a Warblade/Wizard type build. To that I'm adding a few Psion levels and loads of Cerebremancer - alas Mind Mage is Dragon Magazine so I cannot use that. On top I'm sprinking a level or two of Cleric for the Pride domain reroll and the Magic Domain, followed by spoonfuls of Incantatrix and Dweomerkeeper ice-cream if I can work them in. Add hot fudge Eternal Blade sauce and top off with Archmage sprinkles.

I have a sudden craving for a banana split with hot fudge sauce now.

EDIT: Quote from the main DM.


As far as overpowered spells, I believe if you properly explain your concerns about each spell/power, the DMs should be able to determine whether they agree that the spells are too overpowered to allow.

If anyone can help me out here with explanations for spells/powers being OP then I will be eternally grateful. I'm going to explain Core broken material to start out.

[ArcturusV]

Foresight would probably be a good example to start with of Broken Core Spells.

Note that it's terminology is vaguely written, but an effective "I win" button for a high level wizard. Cannot be surprised, cannot be flatfooted. Gets advanced warning of any potential danger and harm.And this isn't just a 1 round warning or anything, it's given as examples in the description things that are obviously minutes long warnings to danger.

So it gives the class who's greatest weakness is "I must never be caught unprepared" total immunity to what is their one effective weakness.

Now when you combine with other spells like Time Stop, Celerity, etc. The up to minutes in advance warning means that your wizard can break the Action Economy and drop several layers of DOOM on someone who is a potential threat against him anywhere from a good 10-30 rounds before they actually are going to do anything.

I"d think that would be a pretty logical point to start for "Even core spells are broken".

[Phelix-Mu]

Well, a good way to measure if something is broken is to see how much ranting on the internet goes on about said thing. Google needs some kind of "rant-o-meter" or something.

My vote is the calling effect of gate. It's way too unrestricted, and to be a plausible part of the campaign world, requires significant DM hijinks. Enslaving creatures (even for 1 round/level) is not cool for game balance, and the existence of things like solars and titans breaks the game (though I'd argue some of the fluff for titans used to put them in the unique critters category that can willingly decline the calling effect). If every amoral 17th level wizard ever can just gate solars, programmed amnesia them, and order them to shine their wizard boots, kill widows, or murder plot monkey, then the believability of the game just implodes.

In short, there is a spell that allows a 17th level wizard/sorcerer/cleric to also be a 20th level cleric (in addition to a solar's bevy of SLAs). Among an almost infinite number of other uses. It's a problem.

[GreenSerpent]

I'm starting them off with Foresight, to see what the reaction is. To "test the waters" as it may be.