unseenmage
2013-04-09, 11:57 AM
Playing a horde building artificer with a new group in a high powered campaign and I had an inspiration.
The original idea was simply an artificer's grenade that combined Animate Objects and Permanency. Then the ideas flooded it.
Now I have a list of a bunch of named custom grenade items, several different grenade item types, a list of command words to determine the form/target of the grenades and all the spell levels, caster levels, and book/page numbers for the spells involved. (Animated Object Swarms will be mentioned they're just an extrapolation of the smaller than Tiny size animated objects using the swarm monster type)
The trouble is that no matter how many times I reread the item creation rules and no matter how many advice threads i hunt down I'm still quite lost.
Complicating Factors:
- My "permanent" animate objects can be Dispelled. Should this make the items cheaper?
- Should the Grenades be compared to the Spell Storing magic items or to the Figurines of Wondrous Power or to Golems or to Summoned Creatures because they can be Dispelled?
Answered "I would start the pricing and rules based on a scroll of Animate Object and Quickened Permanency. This is the baseline cost for creating a permanent animated object as a single standard action (roughly)."
- I have a one use item using a command word that creates a continuous effect... That's three different price ranges on the chart.
- I don't exactly know what the "material components" cost should be for calculating the animate objects spells into the items. Should I use a different cost for each kind of material and design a different grenade for each material?
(when this stymied me I stalled and didn't write down any other gp/xp costs for the other spells either before I lost access to the books for a while)
- Could Permanency on Contingent Spell with Dispell Magic built in help my animated buddies be resistant to being Dispelled into inertness? If so do I need to pay for the Permanency spell twice in the cost calculation?
- I've seen it suggested that building an animated object as a Wondrous Item makes it a magic item and thereby Dispell proof but these grenades aren't meant to negate item crafting time.
- Time, as grenades they're supposed to be tossed down a corridor, break or go off, and then the magic happens. I do not know how to resolve differing casting times and durations all lumped into one item and one action in the game...
Below are the grenade ideas I've had so far, the spells I suspect they need in them, and my rationale/description for each spell.
Hordificer's Grenades
Description
- Hordificer's grenades are thrown magic items that only members of the Artificer class or the Techsmith and Gnome Artificer prestige classes can utilize.
- Each resembles a fist sized glass or ceramic ball wrapped in leather bands with inward pointed spikes attached. The contents are under pressure and the device is rendered useless for one week if a creature not of the designated classes attempts to use it. When thrown the device is designed to pop or break releasing the pressure and admixing various magical components and casting the spells contained therein.
Functions
- Each grenade is designed with one to several command words that decide it's function.
Command Words
- Swarm: Animates tiny or smaller debris in the area into an animated object Swarm Creature.
- Fish: Only animates wooden objects resulting in an animated object with a swim speed.
- Bird: Only animates sheetlike objects resulting in an object with a fly speed and Blind attack.
- Serpent: Only animates ropelike objects resulting in a creature with a climb speed and constrict attack.
- Man: Only animates bipedal person shaped objects resulting in a bipedal upright walking creature.
- Beast: Only animates objects with four or more legs resulting in a creature with increased speed and hauling capabilities and a trample attack if it is large or larger.
- Machine: Only animates spherical objects or objects with wheels resulting in an object with phenomenal speed and a trample attack if it is large or larger.
- Ram: Only animates large or larger objects resulting in a creature with a trample attack.
Grenade Types
- Name: spell name/spell level/Caster Level (book page number)
(creation formula)
- Minion: Animate Objects/6/11 (PH pg199)
Fleeting Hordificer's Grenades are the most basic form of the magitechnology. They simply animate whatever objects happen to be in the vicinity.
MP: ?gp Cost to create: ?gp and ?xp
Formula: single use, use activated, no space limitation, specific class to use
[(SLxCLx50)x2]-30% -->
[(6x11x50)x2]-30% = 4,620gp
- Hodgepodge: Animate Objects (as above), Telekinesis/5/9 (PH pg292)
Hodgepodge Grenades actually gather up then tie, fold, bend, wrap and otherwise build specifically shaped objects from disparate bits of this and that. They can also be used to either exhume a volume of earth or pulverize affected objects into each other for the purpose of creating Animated Object Swarms.
MP: ?gp Cost to create: ?gp and ?xp
Formula: single use, use activated, multiple different abilities, no space limitation, specific class to use
[SLxCLx50+(SLxCLx50x1.5)]x2 -->
{[6x11x50+(5x11x50x1.5)]x2}-30% = 10,395gp
- Statue: Animated Objects (as above), Fabricate/5/9 (PH pg229)
Statue grenades actually reshape the materials in the room into statues whose quality and detail is based on your craft with the related skill. Most impressive when used in a confined dungeon corridor to craft the very walls into statue doppelgangers of whomever you're fighting.
MP: ?gp Cost to create: ?gp and ?xp
Formula: single use, use activated, multiple different abilities, specific class to use, specific skill to use
{[SLxCLx50+(SLxCLx50x1.5)]x2}-30%-10% -->
{[6x11x50+(5x11x50.1.5)]x2}-30%-10% = 9,355gp 5sp
- Vile: Animate Objects (as above), Animate Dead/3/5 (PH pg198), Mantle of Evil3/5 (PlH pg100)
Vile Grenades repurpose an animate dead spell to instead artificially animate corpses as animated objects. As an additional kicker they give the zombie look-alikes an aura of evil to fool would be do-gooders. They only function on corpses and are considered the repurposing of potentially useful materials by Gond worshiping Techsmiths and clerics alike.
Vile Grenades cannot be Sturdy Grenades as the materials they animate do not have Hardness.
MP: ?gp Cost to create: ?gp and ?xp
Formula: single use, use activated, multiple different abilities, material component, specific class to use
{(SLxCLx50)+(SLxCLx[50+25])+(SLxCLx50x1.5)}x2 --> [{(6x11x50)+3x11x[50+25])+(3x11x50x1.5)}x2]-30% = 8,200gp
- Boiling: Animate Fire1/1 and Animate Water/1/1 (CA pg96), Create Water/0/1 (PH pg215), Prestidigitation/0/1 (PH pg 264)
(my favorite) Boiling Grenades are made from only combustible materials and can only create small or smaller creatures. They create a small amount of water and ignite the grenades combustibles on impact. Then they make a water and a fire minion. If a greater volume of either material is available the grenade is capable of making more, but not larger, creatures.
The creatures created by Boiling Grenades are elementals and they last only so long as you concentrate on them for up to one round per level.
Boiling Grenades cannot be Sturdy Grenades as the materials they animate have no Hardness.
MP: ?gp Cost to create: ?gp and ?xp
Formula: single use, use activated, multiple different abilities, specific class to use, 0 level spells
{[(SLxCLx50)+(SLxCLx50)+(SLxCLX50)+(SLxCLx50x1.5)]x2}-30% -->
{(1x1x50)+(1x1x50)+(0.5x1x50)+(0.5x1x50x1.5)]x2}-30% = 227gp 5sp
Grenade Variants(spell name/spell level/Caster Level)
(The prices for grenade variants listed are the increases to the base Hordificer's Grenade Market Price and cost to create.)
- Sturdy: Hardening/6/11 (Mof pg99), Augment Object/3/11 (SBG pg41)
Sturdy can be added to any grenade except Boiling to provide your animated minions with additional Hardness.
MP: +?gp Cost to create: +?gp and +?xp
Formula: single use, use activated, specific class to use
+[(SLxCLx50)+(SLxCLx50) -->
+({[(7x13x50)+(6x13x50)]x2}-30%) = +11,830gp to MP
- Persistent: Quickened Contingency/10/19 (PH pg213), Quickened Permanency/9/17 (PH pg259), Dispel Magic/3/5 (PH pg223)
Persistent can be added to any grenade to protect your animated buddies from being unmade by dispel magic. Though they will still be susceptible to antimagic fields both natural and created.
MP: +?gp Cost to create: +?gp and +?xp
Formula: single use, use activated, xp component, continuous, day per level, specific class to use
+{[(SLxCLx{2,000x0.5})+1,500]+[(SLxCLx50)+(1,500x5)]+(SLxCLx50)-30%} -->
+{[(10x19x{2,000x0.5})+1,500]+[(9x19x50)+(1,500x5)]+(3x19x50)-30%} = +147,280gp
(the exorbitant price tag here is to make your instantaneously animated objects protected from Dispell Magic)
- Landmine: Invisibility/2/3 (PH pg 243), Detect Attitude/1/1 (D323 pg 70)
Landmine can be added to any grenade to allow it to be set invisibly hidden in the suspected path of a suspected enemy to go off only when a creature whose attitude is hostile towards you wanders too close.
MP: +?gp Cost to create: +?gp and +?xp
Formula: single use, use activated, specific class to use, multiple different abilities
+{[(SLxCLx50)+(SLxCLx50x1.5)]x2}-30% -->
+{[(2x3x50)+(1x3x50x1.5)]x2}-30% = +735
- Everlasting: Quickened Permanency (as above)
Everlasting Grenades transform your random animated stuff into permanent constructs. They will be rendered inert once more if taken into an antimagic field or targeted with a successful Dispel Magic spell.
MP: +?gp Cost to create: +?gp and +?xp
Formula: use activated, specific class to use, xp component, continuous
+{[(SLxCLx2000)+(3000x5)]x2}-30% -->
+{[(9x17x2000)+(3000x5)]x2}-30% = +449,400gp
(the exorbitant price tag here is to instantaneously make permanent animated objects)
- Awake and/or Aware: Quickened Awaken Construct/13/25 (SS pg 63), Quickened Incarnate Construct/13/25 (SS pg67)
Awake and Aware grenades awaken your minions to sentience and convert them to flesh, blood, and freedom respectfully. Only humanoid shaped animated objects created by an Aware grenade can be made flesh and blood.
MP: +?gp Cost to create: +?gp and +?xp
Formula: use activated, specific class to use, xp component, continuous, multiple different abilities
Either: +{[(SLxCLx2000)+(5000x5)]x2}-30%
Both: +{[(SLxCLx2000)+(5000x5)]+[(SLxCLx2000x1.5)+(5000x5)]x2}-30% -->
Either: +{[(13x25x2000)+(5000x5)]x2}-30%
Both: +{[(13x25x2000)+(5000x5)]+[(13x25x2000x1.5)+(5000x5)]x2}-30%
=
Either: +945,000gp
Both: +1,400,000gp
(the exorbitant price tag here is to instantaneously make intelligent and/or make living animated objects)
Okay, got the pricing edited in. This is my best over-geusstimate as to the prices of these items. If someone could check my work or suggest a better price comparison item for each it would be appreciated.
Here's hoping someone else is interested in this and thanks regardless.
The original idea was simply an artificer's grenade that combined Animate Objects and Permanency. Then the ideas flooded it.
Now I have a list of a bunch of named custom grenade items, several different grenade item types, a list of command words to determine the form/target of the grenades and all the spell levels, caster levels, and book/page numbers for the spells involved. (Animated Object Swarms will be mentioned they're just an extrapolation of the smaller than Tiny size animated objects using the swarm monster type)
The trouble is that no matter how many times I reread the item creation rules and no matter how many advice threads i hunt down I'm still quite lost.
Complicating Factors:
- My "permanent" animate objects can be Dispelled. Should this make the items cheaper?
- Should the Grenades be compared to the Spell Storing magic items or to the Figurines of Wondrous Power or to Golems or to Summoned Creatures because they can be Dispelled?
Answered "I would start the pricing and rules based on a scroll of Animate Object and Quickened Permanency. This is the baseline cost for creating a permanent animated object as a single standard action (roughly)."
- I have a one use item using a command word that creates a continuous effect... That's three different price ranges on the chart.
- I don't exactly know what the "material components" cost should be for calculating the animate objects spells into the items. Should I use a different cost for each kind of material and design a different grenade for each material?
(when this stymied me I stalled and didn't write down any other gp/xp costs for the other spells either before I lost access to the books for a while)
- Could Permanency on Contingent Spell with Dispell Magic built in help my animated buddies be resistant to being Dispelled into inertness? If so do I need to pay for the Permanency spell twice in the cost calculation?
- I've seen it suggested that building an animated object as a Wondrous Item makes it a magic item and thereby Dispell proof but these grenades aren't meant to negate item crafting time.
- Time, as grenades they're supposed to be tossed down a corridor, break or go off, and then the magic happens. I do not know how to resolve differing casting times and durations all lumped into one item and one action in the game...
Below are the grenade ideas I've had so far, the spells I suspect they need in them, and my rationale/description for each spell.
Hordificer's Grenades
Description
- Hordificer's grenades are thrown magic items that only members of the Artificer class or the Techsmith and Gnome Artificer prestige classes can utilize.
- Each resembles a fist sized glass or ceramic ball wrapped in leather bands with inward pointed spikes attached. The contents are under pressure and the device is rendered useless for one week if a creature not of the designated classes attempts to use it. When thrown the device is designed to pop or break releasing the pressure and admixing various magical components and casting the spells contained therein.
Functions
- Each grenade is designed with one to several command words that decide it's function.
Command Words
- Swarm: Animates tiny or smaller debris in the area into an animated object Swarm Creature.
- Fish: Only animates wooden objects resulting in an animated object with a swim speed.
- Bird: Only animates sheetlike objects resulting in an object with a fly speed and Blind attack.
- Serpent: Only animates ropelike objects resulting in a creature with a climb speed and constrict attack.
- Man: Only animates bipedal person shaped objects resulting in a bipedal upright walking creature.
- Beast: Only animates objects with four or more legs resulting in a creature with increased speed and hauling capabilities and a trample attack if it is large or larger.
- Machine: Only animates spherical objects or objects with wheels resulting in an object with phenomenal speed and a trample attack if it is large or larger.
- Ram: Only animates large or larger objects resulting in a creature with a trample attack.
Grenade Types
- Name: spell name/spell level/Caster Level (book page number)
(creation formula)
- Minion: Animate Objects/6/11 (PH pg199)
Fleeting Hordificer's Grenades are the most basic form of the magitechnology. They simply animate whatever objects happen to be in the vicinity.
MP: ?gp Cost to create: ?gp and ?xp
Formula: single use, use activated, no space limitation, specific class to use
[(SLxCLx50)x2]-30% -->
[(6x11x50)x2]-30% = 4,620gp
- Hodgepodge: Animate Objects (as above), Telekinesis/5/9 (PH pg292)
Hodgepodge Grenades actually gather up then tie, fold, bend, wrap and otherwise build specifically shaped objects from disparate bits of this and that. They can also be used to either exhume a volume of earth or pulverize affected objects into each other for the purpose of creating Animated Object Swarms.
MP: ?gp Cost to create: ?gp and ?xp
Formula: single use, use activated, multiple different abilities, no space limitation, specific class to use
[SLxCLx50+(SLxCLx50x1.5)]x2 -->
{[6x11x50+(5x11x50x1.5)]x2}-30% = 10,395gp
- Statue: Animated Objects (as above), Fabricate/5/9 (PH pg229)
Statue grenades actually reshape the materials in the room into statues whose quality and detail is based on your craft with the related skill. Most impressive when used in a confined dungeon corridor to craft the very walls into statue doppelgangers of whomever you're fighting.
MP: ?gp Cost to create: ?gp and ?xp
Formula: single use, use activated, multiple different abilities, specific class to use, specific skill to use
{[SLxCLx50+(SLxCLx50x1.5)]x2}-30%-10% -->
{[6x11x50+(5x11x50.1.5)]x2}-30%-10% = 9,355gp 5sp
- Vile: Animate Objects (as above), Animate Dead/3/5 (PH pg198), Mantle of Evil3/5 (PlH pg100)
Vile Grenades repurpose an animate dead spell to instead artificially animate corpses as animated objects. As an additional kicker they give the zombie look-alikes an aura of evil to fool would be do-gooders. They only function on corpses and are considered the repurposing of potentially useful materials by Gond worshiping Techsmiths and clerics alike.
Vile Grenades cannot be Sturdy Grenades as the materials they animate do not have Hardness.
MP: ?gp Cost to create: ?gp and ?xp
Formula: single use, use activated, multiple different abilities, material component, specific class to use
{(SLxCLx50)+(SLxCLx[50+25])+(SLxCLx50x1.5)}x2 --> [{(6x11x50)+3x11x[50+25])+(3x11x50x1.5)}x2]-30% = 8,200gp
- Boiling: Animate Fire1/1 and Animate Water/1/1 (CA pg96), Create Water/0/1 (PH pg215), Prestidigitation/0/1 (PH pg 264)
(my favorite) Boiling Grenades are made from only combustible materials and can only create small or smaller creatures. They create a small amount of water and ignite the grenades combustibles on impact. Then they make a water and a fire minion. If a greater volume of either material is available the grenade is capable of making more, but not larger, creatures.
The creatures created by Boiling Grenades are elementals and they last only so long as you concentrate on them for up to one round per level.
Boiling Grenades cannot be Sturdy Grenades as the materials they animate have no Hardness.
MP: ?gp Cost to create: ?gp and ?xp
Formula: single use, use activated, multiple different abilities, specific class to use, 0 level spells
{[(SLxCLx50)+(SLxCLx50)+(SLxCLX50)+(SLxCLx50x1.5)]x2}-30% -->
{(1x1x50)+(1x1x50)+(0.5x1x50)+(0.5x1x50x1.5)]x2}-30% = 227gp 5sp
Grenade Variants(spell name/spell level/Caster Level)
(The prices for grenade variants listed are the increases to the base Hordificer's Grenade Market Price and cost to create.)
- Sturdy: Hardening/6/11 (Mof pg99), Augment Object/3/11 (SBG pg41)
Sturdy can be added to any grenade except Boiling to provide your animated minions with additional Hardness.
MP: +?gp Cost to create: +?gp and +?xp
Formula: single use, use activated, specific class to use
+[(SLxCLx50)+(SLxCLx50) -->
+({[(7x13x50)+(6x13x50)]x2}-30%) = +11,830gp to MP
- Persistent: Quickened Contingency/10/19 (PH pg213), Quickened Permanency/9/17 (PH pg259), Dispel Magic/3/5 (PH pg223)
Persistent can be added to any grenade to protect your animated buddies from being unmade by dispel magic. Though they will still be susceptible to antimagic fields both natural and created.
MP: +?gp Cost to create: +?gp and +?xp
Formula: single use, use activated, xp component, continuous, day per level, specific class to use
+{[(SLxCLx{2,000x0.5})+1,500]+[(SLxCLx50)+(1,500x5)]+(SLxCLx50)-30%} -->
+{[(10x19x{2,000x0.5})+1,500]+[(9x19x50)+(1,500x5)]+(3x19x50)-30%} = +147,280gp
(the exorbitant price tag here is to make your instantaneously animated objects protected from Dispell Magic)
- Landmine: Invisibility/2/3 (PH pg 243), Detect Attitude/1/1 (D323 pg 70)
Landmine can be added to any grenade to allow it to be set invisibly hidden in the suspected path of a suspected enemy to go off only when a creature whose attitude is hostile towards you wanders too close.
MP: +?gp Cost to create: +?gp and +?xp
Formula: single use, use activated, specific class to use, multiple different abilities
+{[(SLxCLx50)+(SLxCLx50x1.5)]x2}-30% -->
+{[(2x3x50)+(1x3x50x1.5)]x2}-30% = +735
- Everlasting: Quickened Permanency (as above)
Everlasting Grenades transform your random animated stuff into permanent constructs. They will be rendered inert once more if taken into an antimagic field or targeted with a successful Dispel Magic spell.
MP: +?gp Cost to create: +?gp and +?xp
Formula: use activated, specific class to use, xp component, continuous
+{[(SLxCLx2000)+(3000x5)]x2}-30% -->
+{[(9x17x2000)+(3000x5)]x2}-30% = +449,400gp
(the exorbitant price tag here is to instantaneously make permanent animated objects)
- Awake and/or Aware: Quickened Awaken Construct/13/25 (SS pg 63), Quickened Incarnate Construct/13/25 (SS pg67)
Awake and Aware grenades awaken your minions to sentience and convert them to flesh, blood, and freedom respectfully. Only humanoid shaped animated objects created by an Aware grenade can be made flesh and blood.
MP: +?gp Cost to create: +?gp and +?xp
Formula: use activated, specific class to use, xp component, continuous, multiple different abilities
Either: +{[(SLxCLx2000)+(5000x5)]x2}-30%
Both: +{[(SLxCLx2000)+(5000x5)]+[(SLxCLx2000x1.5)+(5000x5)]x2}-30% -->
Either: +{[(13x25x2000)+(5000x5)]x2}-30%
Both: +{[(13x25x2000)+(5000x5)]+[(13x25x2000x1.5)+(5000x5)]x2}-30%
=
Either: +945,000gp
Both: +1,400,000gp
(the exorbitant price tag here is to instantaneously make intelligent and/or make living animated objects)
Okay, got the pricing edited in. This is my best over-geusstimate as to the prices of these items. If someone could check my work or suggest a better price comparison item for each it would be appreciated.
Here's hoping someone else is interested in this and thanks regardless.