DM; Advice on campaign story?

[Thuran]

I have been assigned to GMing from next week, and been toying around with what kind of story i could throw at my players for the campaign.

An idea i am playing with right now, is that one wizard cut a deal with demons for power and uses the NPCs as tools to assasinate those very same demons in order to free herself from the deal, under the guise of some phony righteus cause and a well placed Gaeas spell. She would be unable to do it herself, as the demons would have wanted to make sure she didn't use the given power against them. In the process they will also have to be faced with a number of choises where it seems like an otherwise bad choise could be justified due to the "greater good" and thus set up for the reveal that all those actions did in fact only serve an utterly selfish purpose.

What do you guys think of it as the base concept for the story? Wich kind of fake story do you think would have a chance to convince them to rush off to face a threat like that which they might otherwise simply decide to ignore?

[laeZ1]

I like the idea for the story. If you keep all of the power-granting beings as demons, your players may find some particularly potent anti-demon feats/classes/spells/magic items, and your AWESOME boss fights may turn into easier battles than the ones leading up to them (unless you supercharge your NPCs, which can lead to TPK if you're not careful).

The fake story should depend on two things:
1) Your players' motives
2) Their characters' motives

1a) Do your players play for XP and Treasure? Or do they play for a rich storyline and meaningful RP? The former could brew a story of riches that the demons have in their possession, while the latter may have character's family members, mentors, or close friends in danger. Maybe a combination of the two.

2a) If you've got a party of evil characters, the motivation provided should be different than if you've got a party of good characters.

With all that being said, most players will see obvious plothook and jump on the plot. It's not just the DM's responsibility. How experienced are your players compared to you?

[Skysaber]

Campaigns where I, as a player, have been double crossed by backstabbing employers have always left a bad taste in my mouth.

Mind games actually have very limited appeal, so make certain you know what your players want before inflicting one on them. Remember, this is a game, we play it to relax and have fun. So find out if they really think that kind of thing is fun before investing tons of time and energy prepping it.

Also, ultimately, most campaigns based on treachery fail. Hollywood can pull it off because they've got control over all of the elements involved, so can force their scripts through to film. You've got players who are, generally speaking, as apt to strike off in completely unanticipated directions as not. So carefully machinated plots will either turn into the DM railroading everyone into what he wants them to do, or explode due to the metric ton of monkey wrenches players will throw in the works, just being players.

Frankly, in your place I'd switch to a Plan B. Most groups would have more fun dealing with a can of demonically possessed cheese whiz than their DM's latest attempt to produce a Film Noir.

[Thuran]

Thanks for the replies both of you!

- Actually, part of the idea was exactly to encourage the party to use more speciaized feats/spells ect. since they are usually dissed by our groups due to them only being useful in certain situations. Although i hear that they may end up becoming too easy. I plan to have them chase across different plane though, and each plane being a slightly more focused experience. as an example, one plane will resemble Ravnica from magic, aka the entire plane is a city, to encourage those kind of skills, and ofc the kind of monsters they will face will also be influenced by the guilds they end up crossing, so the players get to actually prepare ahead for what they will fight for once, something we almost never do.
- We have aprox the same experience, just one girl is new. Usually the players play for loot and xp, and we have rarely seen character-driven motivations, so leaning towards maybe going for a combo like "save the world, and get rich in the process"? Will be getting their backstories and also asked for their goals in life so I can maybe use that to help me get things made and make sure the characters get the chance during the campaign to let their story shine.


Skysaber:

Hm, you have a good point, although how do i really figure tha out without letting on that something is up? I can see why it would leave a bitter taste and make them annoyed, although was thinking on capitalizing on it in order to build anger and wish for revenge towards the real BBEG of the campaign, so that when they find it out, they will want to hunt her down and hurt her badly.

urgh, you are absolutely right on the railroading, especially in our groups. I once had to send them to some mountains 1-2 days out of town, gave them a map and everything, made it clear it was there. They ended up getting so lost they wound up on the bloody north pole :smallconfused: thinking that perhaps the use of gaeas/quest would solve that, as it would give them a hard shove in the direction, but problem is they want end up feeling forced. Even if it is a spell that is actually in the game and they have ways of finding out it has been cast on them.

Hmm....Well, I guess I could write out the doubble-cross bit relatively easily, although that would still mean having to rely on them to actually want to chase after demons in order to work, will let you guys know once i get their backgrounds, thanks a lot for the feedback!

What has worked for you in terms of getting NPCs to chase after certain death?

[ArcturusV]

Well... the downfall to this sort of thing is people often feel like they got jerked around by the DM. That usually, the way it was built up there's no way in hell the players can figure out what is going on until the big dramatic reveal. And no one likes feeling like their "Heroics" were all in fact evil, and there was nothing they could do about it.

It's a type of storytelling I call the "**** Gets Worse" story arc. It gets used in a few things. One example that jumps to mind is the Tohsaka storyline in Fate/Stay Night.

Basic mechanic:

Something bad happens.
The heroes come up with a reasonable plan that has a better than not chance of working. They enact it. Only to find out the bad guy has an ace up their sleeve that not only defends them against the plan, but usually leaves the hero in a WORSE condition.

And in the example I listed, this happens like 5 times back to back.

And THAT sucks to play through. While it can make for good stories. No one wants to have their hopes dashed like that over and over.

And that's the danger, is that it looks like the story you have there where, the reasonable plan the players may come up with just leaves them in a worse position. Not bad if it happens once. And if there are clues to head it off.

But it's the danger.

[Skysaber]

Any point where you even begin contemplating "do this or die" scenarios like geas/quest, just to get your plot moving, you've already crossed a line.

You must remember this: The player's fun is more important than the DM's plot. Anything else stops being fun for anyone. The players because advancing in straightjackets through a story already written makes them irrelevant. The DM because "nobody appreciates the story I am telling."

It's just bad business. Don't go there.

And mysteries as a whole tend to go over very poorly in D&D. Just saying that so you won't be caught off guard when you drop The Clue, an otherwise innocuous item that will later prove the key to unfolding the entire mystery, and they sell it because someone wanted a +2 bastard sword.

As far as forcing them to specialize, then changing where they are so they must specialize in something else so their previous specialization is useless, that's another name for purgatory, where players prefer to make movie quotes all night over and in place of playing the game. And if it drags on long enough suddenly game night attendance drops off.

Another way to handle the same thing, however, is to hand out the specialty skills/feats as gifts. My old DM used to do that all of the time. "You've saved this town, now the grateful farmers have got no gold, but they reveal to you this secret: anyone who sings this silly little rhyme before drinking from the town well gains X feat! It only works once per person, but hey! Free feat."

If you want them to try out and use skills and feats deemed too niche to be useful having, let them build what they want the ordinary way, then use ways like that to add the specialized stuff on top of it.

So they arrive in town, and the noble they are meeting finds them so gauche she immediately sends them off to be made presentable, and the wizard shop just programs them with "Alright, now you each have 4 ranks in Diplomacy, have a nice day."

And when they ask, "Why yes, they DO have ranks in other skills for sale here. Let's see, there's Sense Motive, and..." basically fill the menu with whatever you want them to have. Anything else is unavailable - and probably never will be. There might be laws against it (Open Locks, Disable Device, Forgery, etc), or it might be that they've never managed to overcome the technical hurdles inherent in developing that (well, we've tried to program Concentration, but it always ends up with the victim, err, client, staring at the walls and drooling for the rest of his very short life) or it might just be there's no market for it, so they've never tried (Jump? Balance? What are those? You say they're skills? You're joking, surely).

The point is, only those skills you want available are available, and that's it. And do yourself a favor and make this A) brand new, not yet fully understood, so they are still working out the flaws in it, as well as B) very hush-hush trade secret sort of business. They don't talk about or let anyone know the specifics of just what is required to do this, because they've already got rivals out to steal it.

Put together, those mean the players' natural tendency to find out whatever the problem is that's blocking them from getting something they want (skills not on the menu) and fix it is curtailed because the very business that can do it would cut them off and treat them as a hostile entity if they even tried.

And if they want to go work for those rivals, "Why, if you complete this mission to steal those critical notes, we can duplicate their processes in as few as thirty years!" ought to put them off accepting that assignment.

[Thuran]

*death by apreciated walls of text*

First of all, I fully agree, twists should NEVER be pulled out of your arse. Indeed there were plans to have there be discrepancies between the stories they were told and what they saw, to give them a prod that someone might be lying to them about the whole thing.

The Gaeas/quest was indeed a bad idea, although it did have the benefit of giving them a possible way to find out that they had been cursed, but as you said, players could end up just feeling forced into it by the GM, instead of noting that "hm, something might be wrong here.....".

Skysaber: That free benefit suggestion is a fantastic idea! And it actually also helps benefit something i was pondering on how to properly reward good actions over selfish. So a selfish action could for example result in more gold, but the good action would give skills/feats/outside help to benefit them (ofc, without making it too clear so it doesnt become a calculation what to do).

Also, we are going with retraining on level up, although that does not do all that much on later levels when you level up every few years so to speak.
That said, I really like your idea and will definetly think about giving it a shot, will still have to see if there is a major risk of the party missing something, based on party composition.

Also, and update on characters: One of the characters is looking to redeem himself and the player has expressed interest in maybe becoming a saint one day (obviously i dont intend to let it happen easily, but a heroic sacrifice into sainthood should be a great moment for the player), which means: Goody two-shoes, of course this would make moral dilemmas a problem where there is no clear black and white, so will have to thread carefully there, but it does mean that simply saving the world for the sake of saving the world could be viable, without any need to have them go in the direction by artificial means.
Also planning to weave in some themes of sin and chances of redeeming other evil characters, which will hopefully also teach the players that there is another option than killing everything in your path!


Hm, do you think some sort of twist is needed for a good story, or can straight "stop the bad guy" stories also work, with the main meat of the story then coming from what happens along the way?

[Blackhawk748]

if your gonna backstab the party at least give them the chance to figure it out, or even better, in my opionion, after they've been screwed over let them kill the wizard who paid them to do it, makes you feel so much better

[laeZ1]

Some sort of twist... I like some sort of twist.
So, looking through what I wrote, I gave a bunch of unneeded background story. Here's a spoiler tag for it.
In my campaign (it'll be our 2 year mark in June), one of the larger twists came into play not that long ago. The campaign started with a tournament, in which the king was choosing his questtakers. In the middle of the tournament, the capital was attacked. The PCs were not only the last surviving adventurers, but also proved their worth by driving back the most powerful creatures of the attack.

The quest begins by the King asking the players to gather 4 magical stones, each representing one of the primal elements, all hidden throughout the continent.

Well, the king's not the only one that wants these stones. He wanted them to help his kingdom prosper (as well as unite the divided countries on the continent peacefully). The Druid circle eventually asks the party to gather the stones for the druids, who will use the stones' power to restore the continent's messed up eco-system (about half of the continent is uninhabitable, half of which was habitable 50 years prior). The dwarves and the drow want the party to give them the stones so they can do battle with the gnomes, who drove them out of their homes underground, and of course, the continent-wide thieves guild wants the stones for... well, to sell to the highest bidder.

The water stone was being kept by a Nymph swamp witch and her troll/orge bodyguard. The firestone was powering a factory under the divine general's palace (in a different country), and was popping out steam-punk war tech. The wind stone was in a shrine specifically to hold and protect it, in the middle of one of the uninhabitited areas of the continent, where a dragon society (full of politics) had formed. And the earth stone was in possession of a demon-possessed master thrower and his druid companion. I didn't give them any sort of order to go after the stones, nor did I tell the players where they were (though certain aspects of the continent gave indications, especially after the players discovered that the stonese changed the geography and weather to suit the element)

The major twist was discovered when the party came to the wind stone, and found that it was the only one that belonged on this continent, and that one of the goddess' power was waning, due to lack of followers on the other continents. Removing the wind stone would deminish her power, and cause all things on the continent to lose 4 caster levels. The goddess then charged the party with the quest of returning the other three stones to their proper locations (shrines on other continents). It's impossible to describe my pride as a DM when the characters took off their king's seals (badges that let them speak with that king's authority), and threw them to the ground.

I believe a straight "stop the bad guy" plot can work. It all depends on your players, and what they enjoy in a game. Half of my players love a convoluted storyline, and the other half enjoy roleplay enough to not let it bother them. If you don't know about your players, test them with a few minor twists before adding in big ones (The shopkeep may be a lizardman wearing a hat of disguise). Another strategy is to listen to them in between sessions, and when they speak out of character during sessions. If they anticipate plot-related twists, that means they expect them. If that's the case, they probably associate twists with good stories.

More important piece of advice: Character impact on the world. This is probably my strongest area as a DM. When a character does something, think about how it affects the world around them. Create sidequests that stem from player actions. For instance, there weas an adventurer's guild in one of the towns in my game. It was pretty much a sham. They sold maps and tours, for the most part. There was a combat instructor, as well. The players see this and decide to shut it down (swindling the townsfolk is how they saw the guild). They took out the person in power, and put somebody with a good heart in charge. They leave the town. Next time they visit the town, it's in ruins. Their actions caused the guild to collapse financially, which left the town defenseless, and the nearby creatures were finally able to overrun it (a plotline of the town the party stumbled across, but forgot to solve).

Character impact in the world goes both ways, of course. When the party revisits an NPC they helpped, or a town they saved, the NPC remembers them, and even something as small as cooking the players a meal can help the players feel like their characters made an impact. Character impact in the world makes the world feel more alive, makes the DM seem more all-knowing, and makes descisions feel like they matter (something you seem to care about as a DM).

[OzymandiasX]

My only advice is to be careful of running too many stories that have M. Night Shymalan-type twists/reveals/hidden motives at the end. It can be tempting to look at it as an exciting twist, but it is frustrating if it happens more than once or twice in a group.

It is easy to set up games that manipulate PCs. And even without sneaky twists, players complicate things quite well on their own! lol

For a change in pace, give your players goals that require them to manipulate (whether through deceit, bribery, or honest salesmanship) NPCs. :)

[Thuran]

LaeZI; Oh I can imagine how good that moment must have felt! :smallbiggrin:

Also, have every intention of character impact. One major storyline they will come across later is getting broiled up in a revolution and thus have the choise to either help it or ignore it, which ofc will make the difference in whether it succeeds or not.

Blackhawk748: That was the original idea, how have the backstabber be the final boss of the campaign.


A bit at an impasse atm, the party will feature a paladin (how on earth can you plan for that? noone ever plays paladins! :smallconfused: ) so any "twists" will have to contend with detect evil. Of course a "disguise allignment" would do the trick, but that would also probably make the paladin feel cheated out of a class feature. Of course it would make it easier for them to figure out that they are being lied to about certain people. Hmm....

Will try to follow the advice of throwing in minor twists to see if they like them, especially since we got a coupple of new players in the group.

[Notalion]

I realize this isn't in line with your original campaign idea, but it's something I thought of when I read your outline.

Basically, demons aren't dumb. Surely after the second or third one falls to a party of suspiciously well-informed adventurers, at least one of them will twig? What if he decided to deal with the problem not by fighting the party to the death, but by just telling them the truth?
"You could keep killing us, but then you'd have to face him too. What if I helped you take him down instead? After all, killing me wouldn't solve anything; Another Demon would rise to take my place. But there's only one of him."

Of course, whether that would work depends a great deal on how your Paladin is played. If he's the type who uses Detect Evil as a replacement for critical thinking skills, it wouldn't get you anywhere.

As for whether you can still tell a good story with a straight 'stop the bad guy' premise and most of the meat happening along the way... You do know what site you're on, right? :smallwink:

[laeZ1]

the party will feature a paladin (how on earth can you plan for that? noone ever plays paladins! :smallconfused: ) so any "twists" will have to contend with detect evil. Of course a "disguise allignment" would do the trick, but that would also probably make the paladin feel cheated out of a class feature. Of course it would make it easier for them to figure out that they are being lied to about certain people. Hmm....

Hmm... if I were in that situation (paladin possibly uncovering the backstabbery before I'd like him to), I would do one of three things, and here they are: in order of least favorite to favorite.

1) Have the backstaber be not evil. I run an adjusted alignment system, and I could see a True neutral character help the party, only to realize the balance is upset, then turn on them, because they feel it is the right thing to do. (This would mess your vilian's motivations up, however.)

The following two both have the opportunity of the players finding out if they suspect, but not without working for it.
2) Disguise Alignment, or some other powerful printed spell. The trick to this, is to make sure (numerous times) that the detect evil class ability is put to good use (good other uses, that is). If the paladin's detect evil could be helpful in a situation, and your players feel stumped, go ahead and remind them all of abilities (including the detect evil, don't single him out). Don't make a habit of helpping your players out too much, depending on your players, it may just take away from the game, but it may even make them mad. If you're going to take my advice with this, be sure to be delicate about it.

3) A super-neat made up spell or ability! The cons to this is that it may upset hardcore players (I used to have 9 players. One of them was a hardcore D&D numbercrunching powergamer who knew pretty much every printed spell. This sort of creative idea doesn't fly with those folk) Off the top of my head, when within 60 feet of the backstabber (which, if I'm not mistaken, is the range of detect evil), your detect evil fails to detect any evil. (It doesn't detect good, so unless the paladin was near something (s)he knew to be evil, (s)he wouldn't realize something was wrong. It would still feel like it was working, even though it's not. And even then, it would take some strong investigative work to realize exactly what was happening). Think of the backstabber traveling with the party, the party then stumbles upon a goblin campfire & tents. The party readies themselves for battle, then the paladin realizes they don't ping as evil. Oh the shenanagins!